Swashbuckler vs. Unchained Rogue?

[Palanan]

I'm trying to decide between the swashbuckler and the Unchained rogue for a third-level character in an upcoming campaign. I'd like him to be an effective melee combatant out of the gate, and I'd especially like Dex to damage at third level.

So which of these classes is better for this? Both get an equivalent of Weapon Finesse at first level, and the Unchained rogue apparently gets Dex to damage at later levels--but it's worth it to me to take a feat at first or third to have that ability when I start the character. By that logic I would be going swashbuckler…but would I be giving up too much goodness from the Unchained rogue?

[Secret Wizard]

Unchained Rogue gets Dex-to-damage with one finessable weapon at level 3, then with another weapon at 11th and 16th. So you'd have Dex-to-damage right: off-bat.

[Palanan]

Does the Unchained rogue still have +2 BAB at third level? (It's not up on the PRD yet, so I can't check myself.)

It would be great to have a full BAB progression, which is part of the swashbuckler's appeal…but I like rogue talents much better than that gritnache thing the swashbuckler has.

[Kurald Galain]

I think the swashbuckler is easier to play and the rogue is more versatile.

[Psyren]

They both get dex to damage (Slashing Grace vs. Finesse Training) and they both get bonus damage (Precise Strike vs. Sneak Attack.) Swashbuckler's is a bit more reliable, but it averages out to less, and they can't dual-wield while they use it, which gives rogue another advantage (Piranha Strike.) They both get a selection of feat-like upgrades as they gain levels as well (Deeds vs. Rogue Talents.)

I'd definitely give Unchained Rogue the edge though - outside of combat it clearly wins the skills race. Furthermore, while they are much closer in a straight-up fight, the rogue has a higher optimization ceiling by being able to restealth and reset the fight against most enemies) and also more party utility via its Debilitating Injuries and Skill Unlocks.

So if you're asking me which one I would rather play, it would be the unchained rogue hands down.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
They both get dex to damage (Slashing Grace vs. Finesse Training)….

Is Finesse Training a feat? I can't find much about it, don't know what the prerequisites are.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…which gives rogue another advantage (Piranha Strike.)

How effective is Piranha Strike at third level? I won't have much BAB to spare.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I'd definitely give Unchained Rogue the edge though - outside of combat it clearly wins the skills race.

And skills are something I'll want a lot of, since outside of combat I'll be doing languages and social skills.

[Psyren]

Is Finesse Training a feat? I can't find much about it, don't know what the prerequisites are.

Unchained Rogue class feature, gives them weapon finesse at 1 and then Dex to damage at 3.


How effective is Piranha Strike at third level? I won't have much BAB to spare.

I wouldn't take it at 3 - you've got too many other things you need first like TWF and SF: Stealth. Between TWF penalties and your lower BAB, you're too likely to miss with it early on.

But once you can reliably catch enemies flatfooted, restealth in combat and apply Debilitating Injuries for massive penalties to their AC, Piranha Strike becomes more reliable.



And skills are something I'll want a lot of, since outside of combat I'll be doing languages and social skills.

Well they can both be the face, but Rogue also gets the trap stuff and scout stuff if that helps.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Unchained Rogue class feature, gives them weapon finesse at 1 and then Dex to damage at 3.

I'm not just sold, I'm salivating. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Psyren
…you've got too many other things you need first like TWF and SF: Stealth.

I'd been expecting to burn my feats getting Dex to damage at third level, but with Finesse Training suddenly I have two regular feats and a human bonus feat wide open.

I'll probably pass on Skill Focus, but apart from TWF, what other feats would be worth looking into?

[Psyren]

I'll probably pass on Skill Focus,

No, don't skip it - trust (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence) me. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth)


but apart from TWF, what other feats would be worth looking into?

Apart from the three above and Piranha Strike later, you may want some archery/ranged capability. Definitely get Combat Stamina also, especially if you'd rather not have 13 Int.; this will make feinting actually useful again and also open you up to Dazzling Display/Shattering Defenses as another sneak attack enabler. And of course you may want Extra Rogue Talents.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So to play devil's advocate for the Swashbuckler, I'd note that with a human you get enough bonus feats to have Dex to Damage at first level through either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace. If you're willing to be restricted to a Rapier, any race can have Dex to Damage at level 1 via the Inspired Blade archetype. This actually makes a pretty good foundation for a Duelist build if you have any interest in the PRC.

As for the Swashbuckler itself, it is quite good a dealing damage. Many of its Deeds are garbage, but the Panache system works better than Grit since you have a 19-20 or 18-20 base crit range with the weapons you'd want to use. The Deeds which are actually useful are fairly nice to pick up and you'll have plenty of combat feats to use along with the new Combat Stamina system. This really shores up the class from its fairly weak foundation.

As for a direct comparison with the Rogue, the Swashbuckler trades away the higher optimization ceiling and out of combat utility for higher BAB, more consistent damage and the ability to be fully online at level 1.

Personally, I think the Swashbuckler and the Gunslinger both serve as dipping classes rather than something you'd go a full game as. This actually lets you experiment with off the wall builds though, and that can really be fun!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
No, don't skip it - trust me.

Dampen Presence is great, but it would probably be too situational for this particular campaign. We probably won't go for more than a couple of levels before switching back to Kingmaker or Runelords. (My new group apparently bounces between campaigns a lot.)


Originally Posted by Psyren
Definitely get Combat Stamina also….

I'm guessing this is another Unchained feat? The book isn't on the PRD yet, so I can't tell what this does, although it sounds worth considering.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
As for a direct comparison with the Rogue, the Swashbuckler trades away the higher optimization ceiling and out of combat utility for higher BAB, more consistent damage and the ability to be fully online at level 1.

We'll be starting at third level, so the last part isn't quite as important here. More BAB and hit points are certainly good, but I'm too tempted by the extra skill points and the rogue talents, which I find a lot more appealing than the gritnache thing, which seems quite limited by comparison.

That said, you do make some good points and I'll keep them in mind.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
…you'll have plenty of combat feats to use along with the new Combat Stamina system.

Can someone tell me what this is?!

:smallfrown:

[Psyren]

If you don't have Unchained yet, how is Unchained Rogue even in the running? :smallconfused:

And I actually linked two feats above - Hellcat Stealth is the other one, letting you restealth in broad daylight while being observed (albeit at a huge penalty). But because stealthing can be done as part of a move action and there's no real penalty for failure, there's no reason not to try this in every fight anytime you move anywhere on the battlefield.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
If you don't have Unchained yet, how is Unchained Rogue even in the running?

Because my DM just bought it and he's very excited about it.


Originally Posted by Psyren
But because stealthing can be done as part of a move action and there's no real penalty for failure, there's no reason not to try this in every fight anytime you move anywhere on the battlefield.

Does sound useful, indeed.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Definitely get Combat Stamina also….


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
…the new Combat Stamina system.

…Combat Stamina? Anyone?

[Milo v3]

Basically, stamina is a system that lets you spend points to do little extra things with any combat feats you have and lets you ignore intelligence requirements for feats, but if you use up all your points then you get fatigued.

You can enter the system by taking the Combat Stamina feat, and it suggested that the GM might want to give it to some classes like fighter or all martial classes for free.