Fun level twelve builds

[questionmark693]

I have been tasked with creating four level twelve character builds for some friends to go through a one shot campaign. Everything is open, but they wont have much in the way of equipment, and i need some inspiration. Not looking for build breakdowns so much as just what types of characters are fun to play in the level twelve range?

[Petrocorus]

I have been tasked with creating four level twelve character builds for some friends to go through a one shot campaign. Everything is open, but they wont have much in the way of equipment, and i need some inspiration. Not looking for build breakdowns so much as just what types of characters are fun to play in the level twelve range?

3.5? PF?
All books allowed?

Bardadin build can be really fun. But require some equipment.

[Andezzar]

A wizard, druid or cleric is always powerful. Whether they are fun is subjective.

[questionmark693]

Sorry, this is for 3.5, but all pathfinder material is allowed, but if it replaces DND material the DM needs to approve it.

[Troacctid]

Theurge-type builds are usually pretty fun at that level. I'm a fan of Soulcaster myself.

[Invader]

Dragon fire Adept has a greatest invocations and enough breath effects to make it pretty fun for a one shot.

Incantatrix is fun at twelve

Hexblade is always a good choice if you use the suggested fixes from Mearls

[Extra Anchovies]

Binder 1/Warlock 8/Hellfire Warlock 3 gets one Greater invocation and the full Hellfire Blast progression plus Naberius.

[gorfnab]

Theurge-type builds are usually pretty fun at that level. I'm a fan of Soulcaster myself.
I like this one:
Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 6

[Extra Anchovies]

I like this one:
Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 6

Oh, wow, hadn't thought of KotW working with UM. That ends up with KotW 7 casting (5th level spells) and Wizard 11 casting (for 6th level spells). Using Spontaneous Divination to meet the UM prereq and then advancing KotW casting is clever.

[JDL]

Challenge: Build an optimized level twelve ranged combat character using nothing but the PHB and DMG.

Power level: Tier 3. No game breaking abilities, dies if stupid, but has a few tricks to keep things interesting.
Good at: Ranged Weapon Combat, Two Weapon Fighting, Stealth, Reflex and Will Saves, Concealment Bonuses
Bad at: Will Saves, Rogue Skills (unless investing high Int in stats), Social Encounters

Build Breakdown:

Race: Human
This is a feat heavy build and the extra first level feat helps.

Alignment: Any Evil

Stats: At least 16 in Dexterity, at least 12 in Intelligence. Put points into Dexterity.

Level 1: Rogue
Feat: Point Blank Shot
Feat: Precise Shot
Skills: 4 ranks in each of the following: Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, Perform (Dance). The remaining points may be spent as you wish. I personally like Disable Device, Listen, Search, Spot, Tumble and Use Magic Device.

At this level you are ready to start using a bow. Focus on engaging enemies from midrange and supporting your allies. You should often win initiative due to your high Dex mod, so take advantage of any flat-footed enemies to add sneak attack on your ranged shots when within 30 ft. Due to low hit points, this extra damage should knock most enemies out in one shot unless they're immune to critical hits (like undead). Your primary weapon will be a shortbow. A light crossbow would deal more damage but you'd need to spend a move action to reload, and you want to keep your squishy d6 hit points out of melee if you can avoid it. If your weight limit allows it, carry a sling as a backup weapon to give you the option of dealing bludgeoning damage to skeletons from range in order to bypass DR.

Level 2: Fighter
Feat: Rapid Shot
Skills: Put 2 cross-class ranks into Perform (Dance). The remaining points may be spent as you wish. I personally like Craft (Poisonmaking) since it's a class skill and there's little else worth taking here.

At this level you're finally at +1 BAB, so you can draw a weapon during a move action. You also gain a decent buffer to your hit points with that d10 unless you roll poorly. Your focus should be on obtaining a masterwork composite longbow with a strength rating to allow you to add your Str mod to damage. You're now proficient in all armour but I recommend sticking with light. Your Dex mod means most medium or heavy simply isn't worth the additional AC for the cost of movement penalty, especially when you're moving tactically to avoid enemies benefiting from soft cover. Obtaining armour spikes means you'll threaten your surrounding squares even when holding a bow, so I'd recommend investing in these if you can afford the extra weight. With Rapid Shot you'll want to take the -2 penalty to hit for the extra attack in every situation except where you need a roll of 18 or higher to hit the enemy without the penalty.

Level 3: Fighter
Feat: Dodge
Feat: Mobility
Skills: There's nothing you should need right now. Spend the remaining points as you wish. I personally like to max my Craft (Poisonmaking) here.

At this level you're picking up the prerequisites for later prestige classes, and there's little that's different in your playstyle. Your extra hit points give you a solid buffer for combat unless you've had terrible rolls. In terms of equipment, start saving for a Handy Haversack to carry your loot and ammunition. You want to avoid being burdened with a medium load if you can help it.

Level 4: Ranger
+1 Dex
Skills: 2 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Geography)

Ranger opens up some nice tricks, beginning with wand use. You should probably be able to afford a wand of Cure Light Wounds by now unless you're still saving for your haversack. Keep one in your pocket and you can use it without making a UMD check, since the spell is now on your class list. The same applies for other nice spells such as Resist Energy, Barkskin or Freedom of Movement, but you're not going to be able to afford a huge number of wands so make the Cure Light Wounds your first priority. Everyone will need healing sooner or later and it's nice to have a way to keep yourself alive that doesn't require instant access to a Cleric. For your Favored Enemy there's a heap of choices, but personally I go with Undead. You tend to see these guys at every level of play and your sneak attack doesn't work on them, so the extra damage is nice.

Level 5: Ranger
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Skills: 2 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Geography)

Why did we pick Two Weapon Fighting for our bonus combat feat here? Because even if you focus on ranged combat you should still have a melee option. I'd try to get a hold of a masterwork greatsword now for melee needs since you've probably got your haversack and can afford the extra weight. With a greatsword as your main attack and armour spikes as your off-hand attack, you can deal a 2d6 and a 1d6 at -2 to hit. Get flanking to add 1d6 sneak attack to each of these as well.

Level 6: Assassin
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Skills: Nothing is essential until next level. Take the opportunity to top up your Rogue skill ranks (5 in Disable Device and 1 in Tumble for example)

Don't forget to go murder someone before you take this level. Since you're an adventurer, I'm sure you've already got a trail of bodies into the double digits so this shouldn't be too hard. You get a couple of nifty class features here. Another sneak attack d6 is good. The death attack is very weak but not bad as a freebie. I once used it to murder a sleeping Paladin so that he couldn't be brought back to life with a Raise Dead spell. Don't expect to use it frequently though. By far the nicest feature is access to the Assassin spell list, though you can only pick two spells to know and cast only one per day. Remember, any spell on your list is fair game for wand activation.

Level 7: Assassin
Skills: 2 ranks in Hide. The remaining points may be spent as you wish.

You get another spell per day and another known spell, plus a boost to BAB. Uncanny Dodge is good, though it's uncommon with your Dex mod that you'll be flat-footed too often. Not much changes at this point in terms of combat tactics. Rapid Shot if you get the chance, or Two Weapon Fighting if you have to melee. By now you can start looking for a few extra useful items such as +1 weapons and armor, arrows of various metals to break DR types, a few utility wands for useful common buffs and potions for the rare ones.

Level 8: Shadowdancer
+1 Dex
Skills: You no longer have any skill prerequisites for prestige classes, so use your best judgement from here on out.

Hide in Plain Sight. You are now a stealth monster. There is no situation where you don't want to use this in combat. Go ahead and move at full speed and just eat the penalty. You still have a chance to hide if you roll well and your opponent rolls poorly. The wording of the special ability is ridiculous as it's so open to interpretation. As written, you can hide in your opponent's own shadow so long as they're no more than 10 feet away. Combine with sneak attack for more awesome. When using ranged combat, remember you are still limited by the rules for sniping while hiding.

Level 9: Shadowdancer
Feat: Endurance

Evasion, Darkvision, and Improved Uncanny Dodge, plus you finally get your +6 BAB, meaning you now have a second attack. Shoot stuff in the dark and if they can't see you you're effectively invisible. Sadly it's only 60 ft. which means most other stuff with Darkvision can see you just fine. Your Hide in Plain Sight should still give you a chance to avoid these spotting you though.

Level 10: Horizon Walker

Oh wait, that 60 ft. Darkvision? It's now 120 ft. Shoot stuff at full range increment in pitch black. Virtually nothing in the Monster Manual can see you this far away. Your only problems will be line of sight and cover penalties.

Level 11: Shadowdancer

You get a pet Shadow. As a combat ally these guys are best used against anything that doesn't have magic weapons or spells, since your companion is fairly squishy against a decent sized fireball. Their true strength however lies in their out of combat utility. As ethereal creatures they can pass directly through solid objects. Scouting becomes a matter of instructing your Shadow to check what's inside the next room. Get your Shadow to look inside that suspiciously large chest to see if it's actually a Mimic. The once per day illusion is also a fun open ended trick up your sleeve. This is the level that rewards imagination.

Level 12: Shadowdancer
+1 Dex
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting OR Manyshot

This is your last Shadowdancer level. You pick up an escape button in the shape of a short teleport. Past this point this prestige isn't worth continuing with, but Shadow Jump can save your life if you're in a tight spot. Feat choice is up to your personal play style. If you like being mobile, Manyshot is good for shoot and scoot. If you like stabbing things in melee, you may get more mileage out of Improved Two Weapon Fighting. At this stage you have a +8 BAB and +9 Fort/+12 Reflex/+1 Will saves from your classes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. The above PHB/DMG build reminds me of the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-%28Core-Melee-Build%29), which happens to hit its final powerspike at level 11 (or level 12 if there's a second planar terrain mastery you want).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
I like this one:
Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 6


Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
That ends up with KotW 7 casting (5th level spells) and Wizard 11 casting (for 6th level spells). Using Spontaneous Divination to meet the UM prereq and then advancing KotW casting is clever.

Could someone explain how this works in a little more detail?

Does this build pile on the gouda, or is it more of a sharp little shortcut to something nifty?

[Extra Anchovies]

Could someone explain how this works in a little more detail?

Does this build pile on the gouda, or is it more of a sharp little shortcut to something nifty?

Ultimate Magus requires the ability to spontaneously cast 3rd-level spells. The spontaneous divination wizard ACF meets that requirement. However, although a spontaneous divination wizard can spontaneously cast 3rd-level spells, they are not a spontaneous casting class. Knight of the Weave is a spontaneous casting prestige class (it has its own fairly rapid progression), and that is the class advanced by the casting granted by Ultimate Magus. So one source of spontaneously cast spells is used to qualify, and the other is advanced through the class.

So it's a shortcut, not a pile of gouda. True gouda would be one of the various (and questionably rules-legal) ways to get double-rate progression by advancing one class with both sides of Ultimate Magus.

[Kymme]

If I'm not mistaken, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-%28Core-Melee-Build%29) build gains there Dimension Door ability sometime around level 12. Might be worth a look.

Edit: swordsage'd

[Petrocorus]

A tribal warrior chosen by the Spirit of the Tiger.

A level 12 PF Psychic Warrior with the Feral Warrior path. Using (and optimizing) the Claw of the Beast power and other Tiger-related powers.

[bekeleven]

The best builds in the game are chameleon and master of many forms, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

[Extra Anchovies]

The best builds in the game are chameleon and master of many forms, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning? Is it their shared non-casting-dependent versatility?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

LG Human, Cleric of Pelor 5/ Morninglord 2/ Radiant Servant 5; Sun and Healing domains, Glory domain, spontaneous domain casting for the healing domain, trade the healing domain power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape. Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent, Quicken Turning.

Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, Night Stick, Reliquary Holy Symbol, extra holy symbols, standard Strand of Prayer Beads that's missing the Bead of Smiting (9k per DMG pricing), Masterwork Full Plate with a Restful Crystal, Masterwork Heavy Mace, +1 Heavy Steel Shield. Daily buffs (with Bead of Karma active) include DMM: Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor on the party, Lesser Rod of Extended Magic Vestment +4 on his armor and shield, Extended Greater Magic Weapon on his heavy mace, and Greater Resistance. Prepared spells need to include Silence, Mass Resist Energy, and Greater Dispel Magic.

He's the leader of the group, and typically does whatever the party needs of him. Usually he'll focus on preventing opponents from flanking the party, protecting the Wizard, casting spells on enemies trying to stay out of melee, and turning undead like a boss.



LN Human, Cleric of Zarus (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 2; Strength and War domains, trade Strength domain power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape, Oracle and Law domains; spontaneous domain casting for either strength or war domain (PH2). Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent, Power Attack, Extra Turning, Craft Rod. He gained Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) via the Frog God's Fane in CS.

Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, Night Stick, Reliquary Holy Symbol, extra holy symbols, standard Strand of Prayer Beads that's missing the Bead of Smiting (9k per DMG pricing), Masterwork Full Plate with a Restful Crystal, Masterwork Greatsword, +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield. Daily buffs (with Bead of Karma active) include DMM: Persistent Divine Power, DMM: Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful on the party, Lesser Rod of Extended Magic Vestment +4 on his armor and shield, Extended Greater Magic Weapon on his greatsword, and Greater Resistance. Prepared spells need to include Flame Strike, Hold Monster, and Heal.

He has an attitude of I'm-the-very-best similar to Min Max from the Goblins comic, and he's typically anxious to wade into melee. He's the other Cleric's younger brother, who keeps him in check.



LN Illumian (Naenkrau), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 7; Specialized in Conjuration, Evocation and Enchantment prohibited, Abrupt Jaunt, Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard). One flaw: Skulker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30) (automatically shaken when adjacent to an opponent); Able Learner, Fell Frighten, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, Versatile Spellcaster, Darkstalker, Sculpt Spell, Invisible Spell.

Arcane Thieves' Tools, +1 Mithral Buckler, Shax's Indispensable Haversack (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29), Spell Component Pouches, Wands, additional wizard spells in his spellbook. Cast Greater Mage Armor and Greater Resistance every day, he has Wizard 11 and Beguiler 5 spellcasting. Versatile Spellcaster allows him to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell he knows of one level higher, which enables him to spontaneously cast 1st-3rd level Wizard spells and also gives him access to 3rd level Beguiler spells.

He tends to crowd control or ready an action to cast Silence on a point in space near an enemy who's casting a spell with a verbal component. He'll use Abrupt Jaunt and spells like Blinding Color Surge to get himself out of harm's way when needed.



LG Magic-Blooded (-2 Wis, +2 Cha, Sorcerer favored class) Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth), Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5; trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) for all classes that would have Ride. One flaw: Hot Blooded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30); Combat Casting, Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster: Sorcerer, Arcane Preparation, Arcane Strike, Minor Shapeshift reserve feat.

Badge of Valor, Rod of Bodily Restoration, +1 Fiery Dwarven Waraxe with a wand chamber, Wand of Wings of Cover, spell component pouches, multiple Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend, Banner of the Storm's Eye (shoulders), Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom (CW). His regular buffs include Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Resistance, Lesser Rod of Extended Heart of Water, and at the start of combat he'll typically cast either Shield or Magic Circle Against Evil as a swift action along with Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll.

His spells known should be mostly buffs with a few strong area crowd controls and plenty of abjurations like Arcane Turmoil. He'll usually be in melee, using Lesser Rod of Extended Wraithstrike every other round (only spells with standard action and longer casting times get increased cast time for being spontaneously cast with metamagic) and Power Attacking for his full BAB.

[bekeleven]

Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning? Is it their shared non-casting-dependent versatility?

"Simple" classes whose real limit is imagination.

Can be optimized however high you want. Want 9th level casting? Both can do that, for all intents and purposes (although 8s in both is incredibly easier). Want to dominate combat? Either one can drop the tarrasque's CON to 0 in a standard action. Just want to punch things? Both can roll as many dice as you want. Want to tank? Either can do so with tier 2-3 proficiency.

In other words, these two classes fit every power level and nearly every mechanical concept you could want, and do so largely without tying you down. Be something else tomorrow.

Oh, and each one covers less than 2 full pages. In that amount of text, they simply give access to every other mechanic in the game.Some restrictions apply. Void in Tome of Magic, Incarnum, XPH, and where prohibited by DM fiat or balance decisions.

[Extra Anchovies]

"Simple" classes whose real limit is imagination.

Can be optimized however high you want. Want 9th level casting? Both can do that, for all intents and purposes (although 8s in both is incredibly easier). Want to dominate combat? Either one can drop the tarrasque's CON to 0 in a standard action. Just want to punch things? Both can roll as many dice as you want. Want to tank? Either can do so with tier 2-3 proficiency.

In other words, these two classes fit every power level and nearly every mechanical concept you could want, and do so largely without tying you down. Be something else tomorrow.

Oh, and each one covers less than 2 full pages. In that amount of text, they simply give access to every other mechanic in the game.

I see no way to get ninths with more than three levels of MoMF or Chameleon, and no inherent source of ability damage from Chameleon (or any way to get 35 points of ability damage from anything MoMF has available). I'm not disputing the power of the classes ("be something else tomorrow" is a very solid argument for either), but I'm curious how the first two are achieved in ways that can't be done more easily by non-Chameleons or non-MoMFs.

[bekeleven]

I see no way to get ninths with more than three levels of MoMF or Chameleon, and no inherent source of ability damage from Chameleon (or any way to get 35 points of ability damage from anything MoMF has available). I'm not disputing the power of the classes ("be something else tomorrow" is a very solid argument for either), but I'm curious how the first two are achieved in ways that can't be done more easily by non-Chameleons or non-MoMFs.

Chameleon 9ths are harder than I remembered, although 8ths are trivial. For 9s, use sanctum spell + earth spell to cast your 6th level chameleon spells as 8th level spells. Then take Extra Spell Slot as your floating feat, giving you a 7th level (arcane+divine) spell slot. The next day, swap your extra spell slot feat for extra spell slot, granting you 8th level casting. Repeat one more day and you can cast 9th level spells for the price of 3 permanent + 1 floating feat.

This works by RAW, although it's easy for a DM to ban pieces of it. If they do, the workarounds require more feat slots and will come online later, but are equally doable. To preempt questions: None of these feats are using chameleon casting as a prerequisite, and extra spell slot doesn't require you to be able to cast a certain level of spell as a prerequisite either; it grants benefits based on descriptive analysis of your capabilities, and thereafter, the feat grouping will self-qualify, which allows you to bootstrap.

I just realized that the tarrasque is immune to poison and ability damage, so you're right about that. I'll have my nagahydra deal 7D12 Con / 7D12 Con poison per standard action to a great wyrm gold dragon or something instead.

I'm trying to recall how to get 9s on a MoMF. 8s are easy, because a Theoretically optimized MoMF can cast Wish every round at the cost of a single feat, an item from complete champion, and a few build decisions.Under a more restrictive reading, it casts wish every other round.

While I'm discussing TO, a 7th-level master of many forms can become pun-pun.

[Extra Anchovies]

While I'm discussing TO, a 7th-level master of many forms can become pun-pun.

So can a 1st-level Psion :smalltongue:

I do get the point though. Thanks for taking the time to explain your methods. Those PrCs are even stronger than I thought.

[Khatoblepas]

The best builds in the game are chameleon and master of many forms, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Divine Minion Changeling Ranger 3/Master of Many Forms X/Chameleon X?

Be anyone, do anything. Probably not the most powerful, but it's always been nice to think of a character who could do that.

[bekeleven]

Divine Minion Changeling Ranger 3/Master of Many Forms X/Chameleon X?

Be anyone, do anything. Probably not the most powerful, but it's always been nice to think of a character who could do that.

Master of Many Forms requires "Wild Shape Class Feature."

Divine Minion doesn't have Wild Shape and it isn't a class feature.

I rate that RAW 20% ambiguous: I don't think it holds water, but there is an argument.
(As you may have guessed, the fact that I've played these two builds 95% of the time at every op level means I'm somewhat familiar with them.)

[atemu1234]

Pouncing barbarians are always fun.

[Nevershutup]

It is worth noting that these (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=150927) are (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=149570) the characters I helped questionmark build. Fun and flavorful, without too much complexity; he's got a fairly new group in terms of optimization and play time.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is worth noting that these (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=150927) are (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=149570) the characters I helped questionmark build. Fun and flavorful, without too much complexity; he's got a fairly new group in terms of optimization and play time.

Hm. Barbarian 6/Champion of Gwynharwyf 6 (excellent, still got that spelling memorized) and Ninja 12, yes? The second one doesn't actually have anything up at the top of the sheet.

[Andezzar]

Pouncing barbarians are always fun.I second that. For a bit more versatility, take Barbarian 1 or 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 8 or 9. If you get the sequence right (level six must be a fighter level) you can have Shock Trooper and Leap Attack by level 6. Warblade can be used to make the charge even more devastating and or give you stuff to do when you can't charge. Some form of flight and/or Bounding Assault (the maneuver not the feat) will allow you to charge with less restrictions.

[Petrocorus]

So can a 1st-level Psion :smalltongue:

I do get the point though. Thanks for taking the time to explain your methods. Those PrCs are even stronger than I thought.
I'm sorry, but i will ask the same about the Psion 1. How?


I have been tasked with creating four level twelve character builds for some friends to go through a one shot campaign. Everything is open, but they wont have much in the way of equipment, and i need some inspiration. Not looking for build breakdowns so much as just what types of characters are fun to play in the level twelve range?

Given the number of replies, you'd rather give us more informations on what kind of characters your players want to play and what kind of campaign you're going to run.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm sorry, but i will ask the same about the Psion 1. How?

Here ya go (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) :smallwink: The joke is that the 1st-level psion I'm referring to is pun-pun.

[Petrocorus]

Here ya go (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) :smallwink: The joke is that the 1st-level psion I'm referring to is pun-pun.

Oh yeah, i totally forgaot about that knowledge check. I always remember this starting with a kobold pally.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
I like this one:
Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, CC) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 6


Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
*explanation thereof*

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

I really like this approach, but I don't often play arcane casters. How would you fill out a spontaneous Knight of the Weave / Ultimate Magus?

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

I really like this approach, but I don't often play arcane casters. How would you fill out a spontaneous Knight of the Weave / Ultimate Magus?

Four more levels of UM, then finish up with Wizard. Also, I got the casting numbers wrong, because the caster levels for this build get weird. See this clause in KotW's spellcasting description:

Your caster level for your knight spells is equal to your knight class level plus any other arcane caster levels you may have.
This means a Wizard 5/KotW 1 has Wizard 5 casting at CL5, and KotW 1 casting at CL6. A Wizard 5/KotW 1/UM 2 has Wizard 7 casting at CL8, and KotW 2 casting at CL11 (8 from wizard +1 from KotW +1 from UM +1 from Spell Power). Once you finish UM (Wizard 5/KotW 1/UM 10), you have Wizard 15 casting at CL19, and KotW 8 casting at CL31. At level 12 you have Wizard 11 casting at CL13, and KotW 5 casting at CL20. Turns out that benefiting from double-rate advancement and getting twice the bonus from Spell Power is pretty awesome. I wonder what Master Spellthief shenanigans this enables...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
Four more levels of UM, then finish up with Wizard. Also, I got the casting numbers wrong, because the caster levels for this build get weird...

Thanks for the details on the casting levels, you're way ahead of me.

And I should've clarified I meant how would you complete the build at twelfth level, just as gorfnab posted it, in terms of feats and etc. Since the Knights of the Weave are essentially paladins of magic, how would you flesh that out?

.

[WeaselGuy]

Personally, I'm a fan of a Kobold Ranger/Wild Plains Outrider/Cavalier. I'll have to check some stuff when I get off of work to post a more detailed build, but the basic gimmick here is you are a small character riding a medium sized dire weasel, so you can adventure with the rest of the party no matter where they go. Dire weasels also have a rather gnarly bite/attach attack that drains constitution.

I also really like Warlocks, and by level 12 you can have a number of different options, everything from diplomancer to glaivelock bruiser.

Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 6 is fun too, with casting as a 9th level shadowcaster and 9th level wizard at level 12. Also a decent counterspeller as well.

Scout 3/Ranger 9 is an easy build, getting impressive skirmish damage with near full BAB for ranged attack shenanigans, or with a level of barbarian to kick it off you get a wicked pounce-skirmisher.

[nerghull]

Interesting thread but silly question,

Can anyone give me the source stating that one "+1 effective caster level" PrC can advance the casting of another PrC ? I have always been chilly to do that because it seemed illegal, but if I could find out that there is a RAW and RAI authorization to do that, it will a open a whole new world of book throwing to my tables.

[Extra Anchovies]

Interesting thread but silly question,

Can anyone give me the source stating that one "+1 effective caster level" PrC can advance the casting of another caster level ? I have always been chilly to do that because it seemed illegal, but if I could find out that there is a RAW and RAI authorization to do that, it will a open a whole new world of book throwing to my tables.

Huh? You want us to explain, how, for example, Mage of the Arcane Order can advance your previously-attained Wizard casting?

At each level, a mage of the Arcane Order gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.
That text shows up in basically every casting-advancing class, occasionally with some modifications.

[nerghull]

Err missing one word. Another PrC, not caster level.
Edited

[Rebel7284]

Ruby Knight Vindicator peaks at 12 with Divine Impetus being one of the few ways in the game to get extra actions. They make great tanks too! Something like:
Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7

[Andezzar]

Err missing one word. Another PrC, not caster level.
EditedNot sure what you are trying to achieve. A PrC that advances spellcasting can advance the casting of any spellcasting class, not only base classes that grant spellcasting. However only a few PrCs actually grant spellcasting, most advance the spellcasting of another class.
A few examples:
Another PrC that advances divine casting can advance the casting of the Ur-Priest PrC because the Ur-Priest PrC is a spellcasting class.
Another PrC that advances arcane casting cannot advance the casting of the Ultimate Magus PrC because that class does not grant spell casting, it merely advances the casting of a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class and a prepared arcane spellcasting class. With that additional PrC you would have to choose whether you would want to advance wizard or sorcerer casting (or whatever to classes you had before taking levels in Ultimate Magus).

@Rebel7284: there is a reason why the class is sometimes named Ruby Knight Windicator.

[Extra Anchovies]

Err missing one word. Another PrC, not caster level.
Edited

Well, I'm going to quote Mage of the Arcane Order again, not because I don't think you've read it but because I want to point out something specific:

At each level, a mage of the Arcane Order gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.
It only specifies "arcane spellcasting class", not "arcane spellcasting base class", so independent-casting classes like KotW can be advanced by other PrCs that advance casting.

[nerghull]

That might be my point, I see a difference between a base class and a prestige class where maybe there is not. So in the case of a PrC granting a whole new casting progression (as an Ur Priest or an Assassin), I'm not sure suche a progression can be developed by a "+1 effective caster level" PrC.
So, sauce ?

Edit :
It only specifies "arcane spellcasting class", not "arcane spellcasting base class"
Looks RAW legit to me, but RAI ? Not so sure, that's where all my problem is :/

[Extra Anchovies]

Looks RAW legit to me, but RAI ? Not so sure, that's where all my problem is :/

No, it's pretty clear that they intended for any arcane spellcasting class to qualify for advancement through other PrCs, and that's exactly what the build does. It's unambiguously written that any class with arcane spellcasting could be advanced through (in this case) MotAO, and since Assassin came out with the DMG, they already knew about independent-casting PrCs. Not expecting players to advance PrC casting through other PrCs =/= intending for it to be impossible.