Was this encounter 'really' fair?

[panaikhan]

OK. Just started a Pathfinder campaign with a fairly small party consisting of:

Fighter, Cleric, Inquisitor, Sorcerer

We go through the starting preamble, and set off towards our first adventuring location. The GM states it will take two days to travel there, and proceeds to roll on a random encounter table.
He announces we are 'ambushed' by a group of monsters, which we barely survive, and I later find out was a CR5 encounter.
Turns out he simply looked for an encounter table for the terrain we were in, and rolled on it.

Do I have grounds to say something? Or will this be a very short campaign?

[atemu1234]

What level are you?

[panaikhan]

We've just started, at level 1.
This was our first ever combat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nope. Your DM needs to learn how to tailor encounters to the party instead of relying on random tables to do his job.

[Jormengand]

Yes. It was exactly fair: a party of 4 first-level PCs is also a CR 5 encounter (1 for the first, and +2 for each time the number doubles). But that should basically be your encounter for the day, because you were lucky (or skillful) to come out of it with everyone standing.

Bear in mind that PCs tend to be cleverer and better optimised than encounters. For times when they're not, tucker's kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) happen. A competently-run 1st-level party should come out on top of a CR 5 encounter that's not being played well.

[nedz]

I have thrown CR5 encounters at level 1 parties, but you really have to know what you are doing to get away with this. The structure of the encounter is everything, also the players need to be aware that they might face opponents that are too tough for them and that running away may be appropriate.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes. It was exactly fair: a party of 4 first-level PCs is also a CR 5 encounter (1 for the first, and +2 for each time the number doubles). But that should basically be your encounter for the day, because you were lucky (or skillful) to come out of it with everyone standing.

Hm. Although it's an evenly balanced fight (or at least approximately so) by RAW, I wouldn't call that fair in the context of a tabletop roleplaying game. After all, if the party gets wiped every other encounter, your players aren't going to stick around very long. I consider "fair", in non-pvp D&D terms, to be something that requires the expenditure of PC resources but not in such a manner that they can't take another encounter before renewing those resources. This reasoning puts boss fights (usually CR +3 to +5) in the "unfair" category, but that's intentional; to produce the proper atmosphere of danger, the fight needs to be one that the PCs aren't sure they'll survive.

[Geddy2112]

It depends. Not all CR's are truly equal- a horde of monsters that equals a CR 5 is probably going to be harder than a single CR5 monster, which can be ganged up on and focus all resources. That said, a single wraith is CR 5 and would have likely caused a TPK because it is incorporeal. The CR system is flawed to begin with, and party composition can drastically alter the outcome of an encounter. For example, a horde of skeletons at CR5 is a joke to a cleric who can just channel them into dust.

[Gnaeus]

Is it fair? Yes. It is a fairly high fatality play style, strikes me as a little Gygaxian, but totally fair. If you do not wish to have a risk of death in random encounters, that is a legitimate discussion to have with the DM. Alternately, if you know you may be unexpectedly facing ecl+4 encounters, it may be time to bring your optimization A game.

[Gnaeus]

Is it fair? Yes. It is a fairly high fatality play style, strikes me as a little Gygaxian, but totally fair. If you do not wish to have a risk of death in random encounters, that is a legitimate discussion to have with the DM. Alternately, if you know you may be unexpectedly facing ecl+4 encounters, it may be time to bring your optimization A game.

I think in many ways it is especially appropriate for random encounters. If the DM is throwing one fight per day at you, if there is no risk of PC death, the fight is meaningless, since it is more or less guaranteed to not affect the next fight by draining hp, spells, or other dailys.

[endur]

What does "Fair" mean?

There is nothing wrong with using encounter tables. Encounter tables have been around since the beginning of D&D.

There is nothing wrong with using encounters that are CR +4. However, the players should reasonably expect that a CR+4 encounter is essentially a 50-50 fight, either side could win. If the CR is higher than +4, the odds are the opponent will win a fight.

[(Un)Inspired]

What does "Fair" mean?

This.

I'd love to try and judge what happened as fair or not but I have no clue what this thing "fair" is.

What constitutes fair-ness?

[EisenKreutzer]

Seems fair to me, if that was your only encounter that day and you could burn all your resources on it.

[Kudaku]

Most of the "terrain-based" encounter tables I have seen tend to range from CR 1/2 to CR ~12. It's not the tool I would have chosen to make a random encounter for a level 1 party.

[Nibbens]

The CR was APL+4 and you survived, but it was close. This was exactly what should have happened in an APL+4 situation, especially to a level 1 party. If the Dm has never read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1), then he needs to - immediately. I live and die by this guide now.

Also, remember that running away is always an option. lol.

[BWR]

Unless the DM promised that he would never throw any difficult encounters your way, I'd say it was plenty fair, but I'm pretty 'Gygaxian'. I may bitch a bit when encountering difficult fights but tend to like them in retrospect, and I throw plenty of them at my players when I GM.
You managed to survive, and victory excuses a lot.
You can run away (depending on your DM)
You can talk your way out of things (depending on your DM)
If you all were complete newbs and wiped due to not knowing how to play the game properly, i'd consider it unfair. If the DM sends encounters your way you have no hope of defeating, like a great wyrm dragon at 1st, then it's unfair. If you have decided that only APL=/<CR is fair, then this is indeed unfair.

Random encounters are random, and the game world already bends itself out of shape to accomodate PCs with little other than challenges they have a realistic chance of succeeding at; a random encounter table shakes things up a bit.

[MyrPsychologist]

Not every fight HAS to be winnable. When presented with a task that you are not equipped for it is perfectly reasonable, often sensible, to run and live to fight another day.

[RolkFlameraven]

So long as it was the only fight of the day its fine, if a little nasty to be very first combat this group has ever gotten into. It being an 'ambush' is a little worrisome though.

Did the DM allow spot/listen/survival checks to see if anyone saw the thing coming/thought it could be in the area or was it just roll initiative? Was there a surprise round?

[Hellborn_Blight]

I am suddenly reminded of an epiphany me and some others players came to about encounters one day during a Tomb of Horrors game. If the you are supposed to have roughly 4 encounters a day, each of them taking 1/4th of the parties resources and a PC goes down, but the encounter was won, it was an exactly appropriate encounter. In a four person party, a PC would be 1/4th of the parties resources.

[RolkFlameraven]

I am suddenly reminded of an epiphany me and some others players came to about encounters one day during a Tomb of Horrors game. If the you are supposed to have roughly 4 encounters a day, each of them taking 1/4th of the parties resources and a PC goes down, but the encounter was won, it was an exactly appropriate encounter. In a four person party, a PC would be 1/4th of the parties resources.

That would really only be true if no spells where used and only the PC who died took any damage. Anything other then that and it would be a bit more then 1/4 of the parties resources wouldn't it?

[Hellborn_Blight]

That would really only be true if no spells where used and only the PC who died took any damage. Anything other then that and it would be a bit more then 1/4 of the parties resources wouldn't it?

Not if the spells and items used came from the character who died. The Tombs brutality causes such bleak introspection lol.

[Secret Wizard]

Thread:

GM passed the INT check to recognize CR5 is mathematically fair.

GM failed the WIS check to recognize that fair encounters have a fair chance of character death, so an early encounter like that might be anticlimatic.

For the sound of OP, he might have failed a few CHA checks too.

[Hrugner]

I like doing something like this right off, it reminds the players that running away is sometimes a good option and that death is a real risk. This method is slightly less awful than just telling everyone to make their character and it's inevitable post mortem replacement so you can work them into the story.

Fair as in balanced mechanics wise? Nah. It may be fair warning though

[Occasional Sage]

I see two problems (caveat: I like high-threat games regardless of which side of the screen is currently mine):

first level is very, very fragile
the DM's expectations may be out of alignment from the players'


To expand on that second one, he may well have rolled *knowing* that a brutal or even impossible result could come about, and done it anyway. This is done generally to promote realism and prevent the hero-complex from becoming a god-complex. Alternatively, he's just too new.

I suggest sitting down with him to discuss this. Have the conversation one-to-one, so he doesn't feel like he's being called out. There are few table problems among reasonable adults which cannot be solved with a calm talk.

[panaikhan]

Sorry for being away for a bit.

The encounter was an ettercap (CR3) and 5 giant spiders (CR1/2 each).
The spiders pretty much had two party members glued down before initiative (sorcerer and inquisitor), running wasn't an option.
The Fighter was almost out of the fight twice, there was only the cleric standing behind him and some lucky die-rolls that didn't finish him off for good.

As the session ended, the DM informed us another encounter (more than likely from the same table) was coming our way. If he meant that figuratively - meaning we get to rest, or literally, I will ask at the next session.

[Andreaz]

I don't know about fair, so I'll use another word.

The encounter was Even. A CR+4 encounter is more or less a mirror of your capacities. It's as if you had found a group of level 1s Fighter, Inquisitor, Cleric, Sorcerer.
Except for the ambush part, of course. They had an extra round on you, and that always hurts. And then having your freedom of action impaired. That usually is what hurts the most.
And, of course, the system isn't perfect. Swarms and Ethereal beings are far too potent for level 1 parties, regardless of CR, because you *need* expendables, elemental damage and magic weapons to fight them properly.

Now, what do you expect for the campaign, encounters-wise? Did he state anything? I tend to prefer very long days, with at least 6 or 7 fights, but hadly any of them will ever be past cr+2. They tend to be relatively easy, with more at stake than just beating them. For example entering the dungeon and wanting to go as deep as possible undetected. Most fights that don't end at round 0 are suffering, even when they're easy, because Round 1 risks sounding the alarms!

[panaikhan]

If it had been one CR5 monster, we may have fared better. I don't know.
The fighter seems to have brought his optimization honors degree, it's probably why we managed as well as we did.
The cleric and inquisitor seem to be both ranged weapon builds (though to be fair, the inquisitor didn't have much choice).
My sorcerer is built for summoning and close combat, though he 'can' do AOE at a pinch (shock shield) - so a swarm 'might' have been manageable, and I think our GM knows enough not to throw incorporeal at us before we have anything to hit it with (that reminds me - pick up magic missile ASAP).

On the plus point, we're 2/3rds of our way to L2 from one encounter.

[Segev]

Rarely is a single datum enough to judge on. This is concerning if it becomes a pattern of encounters that seem to be designed to have a 50/50 shot of wiping the party.

From a structural standpoint, this was a bad first encounter. I'm guilty of similarly overpowered first encounters, though: I ran an Eberron game where the first thing the party encountered was a Juvenile Green Dragon. It wasn't intended to be a fight to the death, though; there were a few ways out that I designed in and I'm sure PCs could come up with more.

But it had a specific purpose: it was meant to make them seek more defensible ground, one way or another.

The first encounter for a game wherein one is relying on random encounters should probably be more in the CR-equal-to-PC-level territory, just to let people get "warmed up," if nothing else. But again, that's structurally speaking, not necessarily discusisng "fair."

[Drork]

I would talk with your DM and ask them what they are expecting of the campaign and the players. If they are going to push this kind of encounter on you let them know in turn that you will have to start book diving to find the tricks to survive such encounters. If your not happy playing in that kind of campaign let the DM know and ask the other players how they feel. I personally find such adventures rewarding as you feel like you have earnt your stripes when you live.

Some DMs create the world around the players other DMs create the world and let the players sand box it. Sometimes there are bullies in sand boxes. I find all DMs are interested in letting you be creative so long as it isnt game breaking. For example you could higher a guide to guide you past the higher CRs on the random monster table.

[Jay R]

First of all, any encounter is fair if it's possible to run away. Never forget that that's an option.

Second, you won. Yes, that's fair.

[panaikhan]

First of all, any encounter is fair if it's possible to run away. Never forget that that's an option.

Yes, the two members of the party that were not webbed to the floor could have run away, leaving the others to be eaten.

[Jay R]

Yes, the two members of the party that were not webbed to the floor could have run away, leaving the others to be eaten.

Were they webbed to the floor during a surprise round, or after the encounter started, after they might have run away?

In any event, you won. You won the encounter. Complaints are for the ones you lose.

[Andreaz]

In any event, you won. You won the encounter. Complaints are for the ones you lose.Faulty logic there. Success is only one measure of a well designed encounter. It's very possible...usually very likely that a bad encounter still gets beaten. Worst cases are by fiat, even.

So "you won, don't complain" is not really helpful.

[Hamste]

Were they webbed to the floor during a surprise round, or after the encounter started, after they might have run away?

In any event, you won. You won the encounter. Complaints are for the ones you lose.

Let us say they had a chance to run before webbed. How could they have succeeded? I doubt they have horses seeing they were level 1 and new. Almost certainly some of them were wearing medium armor that means the slowest was probably going 20 ft with no specialty movement. The ettercap and spider have a movement of 30 ft and a climb speed of 30. All you would do if you ran was provoke an attack of opportunity and then they just catch right back up.

As near as I can tell the majority of fights at level 1 you can't flee from because they either move faster than you or at the same speed. At least until you get horses and that carries a host of problems for actual combat plus they may still be slower. Plus difficulty isn't always obvious until it is too late, a bunch of spiders and a man sized spider thing don't sound overly lethal until you see what they can do.

[Elana]

Speed isn't much of a concern, unless you are dealing with enemies who actually chase you.
Spiders (and by extension ettercaps) are not known for running after prey.
They build traps and ambush them.

(Of course they might give a token chase for two rounds or so before giving up and going back to wait for easier food)


That said, many newer GMs seem to not know that random encounters do not necessarily mean combat.

If your first level group gets a dragon encounter, that just means you see one flying above. (and can do things like hiding from it, if you are so inclined)

[Sheogoroth]

Don't say anything.
How much more weighty are the die when DEATH is on the line?
Or optimize.

[Firechanter]

Let us say they had a chance to run before webbed.

They could not. OP said they were glued down _before Initiative_.

Also, going by the terrain Ettercaps usually live in, it's likely to have been in a forest. Difficult terrain all around, unless you have a Climb speed. Oh look at that, Spiders do!
So even if they hadn't been webbed, it would probably have been impossible to run away anyway. This is by the way true for damn many encounters: PCs (at low levels at least) are often hindered by the terrain, wheras the Threat they try to run away from often is not. So "You can always run away" is doubly false.

@Thread:
I think that encounter was rather tough. You were pretty lucky to come out on top. Personally, as a DM I wouldn't have thrown that at a level 1 party, particularly not as the first random encounter. Then again, I generally dislike the extreme swinginess of the lowest levels in 3.X, so I normally don't start games before level 3. At levels 1-2, neither player choices nor character abilities play a significant role; it just boils down to good or bad luck with the dice.

Edit:
As it has been said, the CR alone does not say a lot. Some here have said a single CR5 monster would have been easier -- I disagree. At CR5, we are looking at stuff like Dire Lions, Manticores or Trolls, to name a few that you might encounter randomly in the wilderness. Any one of these can down most level 1 characters with an average damage roll.
And here we are still just talking about things that do straight physical damage; never mind thinking about stuff like Wraiths or Basilisks.

[Jormengand]

In any event, you won. You won the encounter. Complaints are for the ones you lose.

So if a 7th-level wizard gets put against a Paragon Solar, it's fine as long as the Paragon Solar flunks both its saves?

[some guy]

It'd be perfectly fair if the dm gave hints of what was to come (strands of giant cobweb), I usually let my players encounter spoors or tracks of their random encounters before they actually encounter it, and if the dm would have let you roll your perception checks. That said, those cr 1/2 spiders have an insane stealth modifier, but one of 4 pc's probably would have noticed an hiding ettercap.

I'd say the CR of the encounter was fine, but the handling of it by the dm was a bit poor.

[Jay R]

So if a 7th-level wizard gets put against a Paragon Solar, it's fine as long as the Paragon Solar flunks both its saves?

In my experience, usually. There's a lot the DM knows that the players don't, even after the encounter. It's quite possible that the encounter was intended top look much scarier than it actually was, or that the worst case was to be captured and taken somewhere meaningful, or ...

Bilbo and the dwarves were beset by too many goblins, so Bilbo fled down a tunnel where he found the most powerful magic item available.

Han, Luke, and Obi-wan encountered a ship far too powerful for them to fight or escape from - until they were brought on board, where they rescued the princess and disabled the tractor beam.

I ran a Flashing Games scenario in which each character was ambushed by the Cardinal's Guards and captured. They were brought before Richelieu, who offered them an extremely lucrative assignment.

So, yes, as long as nothing goes wrong, you have no basis for complaining.

[Andreaz]

So, yes, as long as nothing goes wrong, you have no basis for complaining.Ugh. Please rethink those words, Jay R. You're basically saying any, ANY badly designed fight, even the most crazy one, without a single plot device behind it, any complete cluster**** of bizarre design and lack of care for the fun of the game, is "fine" just because the players won.

Everything you said that had reasons to be fine were completely ancillary to the quality of the scene.

[draken50]

There's a few questions out the gate.

As I recall Ambush kind of pushes the CR of an encounter up. Then there's the fact that while the numbers are nice, situation and the like makes a big difference. Did the webbed players have any control in the situation or was it just, "These two are webbed"?

Then you've got experience differences as well. How well do the players know the system? If you've got a gm that knows it back and forth and how to use each creature to their full destructive potential playing with players that figure their sorcerer will use a crossbow instead of... ya know.. spells, it's a whole different game.

Last part tends to be, how long does it take you to make characters? People running a lethal game who complain that players don't make good back stories can cope. If you or the others can knock out a new character and be back in the game quickly then it's less of a problem.

[Jormengand]

There's a lot the DM knows that the players don't, even after the encounter.

No, that's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking, if a seventh-level wizard is put against a CR 38 encounter, no ifs, no buts, no secrets that the DM is hiding: one legitimate 7th-level wizard vs one legitimate Paragon Solar, does luck - the 1/400 chance of the Solar dying to phantasmal killer - mean that the encounter wasn't badly designed? Does that mean that good encounter design is based on chance?

If a 7th-level wizard is up against a Paragon Solar, he should be toting explosive twin thunder energy substitution (electricity) flash frost snowcast locate city, not phantasmal killer.

Put it another way. Suppose you're a first-level fighter, and you're going up against the entire hordes of the abyss. Even if they legitimately flunk every die roll, there is no way in this universe or the next that a first-level fighter should be facing off against any kind of demons, let alone one side of the blood war.

Or suppose you're fighting off against a wizard who is not only epic level to your first, but has conveniently prepared the best spell to use in this situation, and who is using blatant misinterpretations of the rules to make his attacks stronger. But, you get lucky and kill him. Was that a well-designed encounter.

Or what if you're fighting the DM's homebrewed ultimate godlike awesome being of epic and win. You lose all your armour, and weapons, and everything else, and are drained down to first level, and he's managed to drain all your ability scores down to about 4, and his Death Throes staggered you. You end up crawling back to town using your move actions, and have to rebuild your career as an a adventurer from scratch.

Do you not have anything to complain about? And is the fact that you were lucky enough to win the encounter despite your DM's really horrible encounters enough to make them perfectly fair and reasonable?



Another thing is that if you noticed that someone was cheating in, let's say a Magic tournament but think of something more appropriate if you like. Further, they're cheating in a fairly major way. You finish the game anyway, and manage to win, but does that make it okay that they cheated?

[RedMage125]

If it had been one CR5 monster, we may have fared better. I don't know.


I'm willing to wager you would have fared WORSE. Namely because all CR equivalent monsters are not the same.

A group of 4 wolves would be a CR 5 encounter that a level 1 party could handle, while a single Troll (CR5) would easily wipe the floor with them. Trolls have regeneration, and their to-hit and damage output would kill most level 1 characters in one shot (even Barbarians with an 18 CON).

CRs at low levels are difficult to adjudicate with encounters and multiple monsters, because most average (not highly optimized) groups cannot handle a troll until level 5 or so (maybe a little sooner). But at higher levels, spellcaster throw so much out of whack that Encounter Level computation is next to impossible to accurately predict as far as what kind of challenge it presents. Also at high levels, everyone getting to take actions vis the monster's single action makes a world of difference. I've seen low-op parties of level 15 characters DESTROY a CR 22 Red Dragon with no trouble at all, but level 4 parties have a hard time against a 7-headed hydra (CR 7).

Example: Party was level 16, I was playing a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 1. We had just trekked though a dead magic zone desert for 3 sessions, until we reached our destination, which was an underground tomb, deep enough that it was below the dead magic zone. Having been stymied for 3 weeks, and the fact that when we burst into the main room of the tomb I saw our objective (and thus knew we could teleport out once the encounter was over), I blew both of my Instant Metamagic uses per day, 2 8th level spell slots, a 5ht level spell slot, and a 6th level spell slot in 2 rounds, turning what was supposed to be a level 18 encounter into one monster with half his hit points remaining (he rolled really well on his saves, lol). My DM was irritated, but I spent a good number of resources to do it.

TL;DR-
CR is a vague system at best. Depending on the particular abilities of a monster, party being one or 2 levels lower might make the monster nearly unbeatable (Trolls are a good example). Optimization of the PCs can be a major factor.

[Jay R]

Ugh. Please rethink those words, Jay R. You're basically saying any, ANY badly designed fight, even the most crazy one, without a single plot device behind it, any complete cluster**** of bizarre design and lack of care for the fun of the game, is "fine" just because the players won.

Everything you said that had reasons to be fine were completely ancillary to the quality of the scene.

No, I am not saying stupid things I did not say. I am saying that if the players win the encounter, then they have not been hurt, and more importantly, they have no reason to suspect that it was a badly designed fight. They are making up guesses that the information available doesn't support, exactly like you did when you deliberately ignored the clear meaning of my words, "There's a lot the DM knows that the players don't, even after the encounter. It's quite possible that the encounter was intended to look much scarier than it actually was, or that the worst case was to be captured and taken somewhere meaningful, or ...".


No, that's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking, if a seventh-level wizard is put against a CR 38 encounter, no ifs, no buts, no secrets that the DM is hiding: one legitimate 7th-level wizard vs one legitimate Paragon Solar, does luck - the 1/400 chance of the Solar dying to phantasmal killer - mean that the encounter wasn't badly designed? Does that mean that good encounter design is based on chance?

If that's the question that you are asking, then I am completely disinterested in it, since it does not describe the situation the OP described, or any situation real players are likely to be in.

If the DM created a situation that looked really scary, but that the players successfully overcame, then the most likely hypothesis is that the encounter was not as difficult as it appeared, and that the DM successfully made a scary, tension-filled encounter for the enjoyment of all.

I am saying to trust that the DM knows what he's doing, when the encounter goes as it should.

In the real world, when a DM is being deliberately unfair and hurtful, the players don't escape scot-free.

Assuming anything else of your DM, when nothing has gone wrong, is unfair to the point of absurdity.

[Zordran]

Pathfinder's encounter tables are designed to prevent this kind of boredom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html). The wilderness is dangerous, and the tables were designed to enforce that, and nobody knowing this can lead to some unpleasant times.

Personal experience, we've had three TPKs due to random encounters, which is a bit much given that half the table is on the Care Bear side of things. One of them was definitely our fault. It finally hit the point of absurdity when, in order to restore our reputation after a bungle involving random encounters, we were told to escort someone to a city twelve days away. That's 36 potential random encounters. Realistically, it was ten encounters, and half of them were at least CR+3. One of them required us to parley, and the agreement extended our trip by two days in each direction. By the end, we were so drained and frazzled that the GM started nerfing the encounters, and we paid some highwaymen to escort us the last day or two to town. However, due to some especially strange turns of the dice, I ended up with an ogre mage as my PC.

So, the encounter tables are what you make of them. I've had a couple of badly designed encounters of the, "Boy, my archer would be doing a lot better if you hadn't started the fight with me inside the ogre's mouth!" variety. I, for one, would like to have talky encounters more often than we do, and I lose the chance to strike first more often than not because of that.

[Firechanter]

The way I know it, a party has about 50% chance of a Random Encounter during a day of travel (through uncivilized lands), and a reduced rate (20% or something) during the night, assuming they try to make their camp a bit out of open sight.

However, in practice, our DM has reverted to the OotS method for the most part: 1 RE per journey, so we get to do actual plot-related stuff during a session and not just fight through hordes of random enemies.

In one case, we had to really hurry through Daggerdale because we got word our hold had been attacked, and that was before we had flying mounts. Here, the DM commented "Your journey passes surprisingly quiet -- apparently word of you has gotten around far enough that everything avoids you."
In another campaign, we have started talking about "the monsters rolling poorly on their random encounter table" if they meet us. xD


Realistically, it was ten encounters, and half of them were at least CR+3.

Wow, that's enough XP for about 1,5 character levels. :-o Another reason why a DM shouldn't go over the top with REs.

[Andreaz]

No, I am not saying stupid things I did not say. I am saying that if the players win the encounter, then they have not been hurt, and more importantly, they have no reason to suspect that it was a badly designed fight. They are making up guesses that the information available doesn't support, exactly like you did when you deliberately ignored the clear meaning of my words, "There's a lot the DM knows that the players don't, even after the encounter. It's quite possible that the encounter was intended to look much scarier than it actually was, or that the worst case was to be captured and taken somewhere meaningful, or ...".

That's the thing, Jay, what you are saying is that one's supposed to trust the dm to have made a good call no matter why just because they escaped or won. That is not a sign of a well designed encounter, and no, we're not advocating DM hatred. We're just saying that badly designed encounters exist, and if they're recurring, one ought to warn the DM he's doing something really strange, and often unfun.
"Trust the DM no matter how farfetched it looked even though you succeeded" is how I lost quite a few games because it spiraled into insane levels of bull****. Never unbeatable bull****, mind you, but still bull****.

For example: I play to be entertained. I want to have fun. Often this means a fun story. Almost always this means we're doing wacky stuff on the way to our goals. Sometimes it means having a close call against a hard enemy. Sometimes it means steamrolling the enemy. Sometimes it means getting our asses handed to ourselves in an amusing or plot-appropriate fashion. Sometimes it means dodging the encounter completely. Sometimes it means sassing the Rogue while he's fighting a mummy while we are all paralyzed because someone thought licking the gelatinous cube was an appropriate way to pass time until the thief disabled the trap.
It never means only "Winning", though. And you are coming here and telling me that "because you've won/survived, it was well designed as far as the DM is concerned." That's not gonna fly.

[LudicSavant]

I wouldn't call throwing a CR5 encounter at a level 1 party unfair. Challenging, perhaps, but not unfair. Heck, even the DMG recommends CR+4 for very challenging encounters, and I've seen clever players regularly take down much higher CR spreads than that. Even if it didn't, you don't have to fight everything you encounter. The world doesn't need to be designed to hold the hands of the players, and different players are comfortable with wildly different levels of challenge.

Unfair, to me, means things like taking away player agency and the like, rather than merely presenting strong foes.

[goto124]

The encounter was an ettercap (CR3) and 5 giant spiders (CR1/2 each).
The spiders pretty much had two party members glued down before initiative (sorcerer and inquisitor), running wasn't an option.
The Fighter was almost out of the fight twice, there was only the cleric standing behind him and some lucky die-rolls that didn't finish him off for good.

That... doesn't really sound like a fair encounter for level 1. Especially the bit about getting webbed.

At best, a rather challenging encounter that's bordering on 'unfair'.

[Gnaeus]

Let's also remember that one possible factor here would be that if the DM realized he was looking at a possible tpk or party death here, he may have started fudging numbers part way through or having monsters act sub-optimally. We don't know without the DM being here, but that would explain the victory in another possible way other than "we got lucky", and it is something I see often in games, even if I don't much like it as a player.

[danzibr]

The encounter was an ettercap (CR3) and 5 giant spiders (CR1/2 each).
Yeah, this would be a great challenge (depending on how you take the word ``great''). I'd throw it at a capable party under the right circumstances.

[Barstro]

I think our GM knows enough not to throw incorporeal at us before we have anything to hit it with (that reminds me - pick up magic missile ASAP).

Get some ghost salt on several arrows too.

It's hard to say something is mathematically fair when four lvl-1 characters may be much better and work with more cohesion than another group of lvl-1 characters.

FWIW, my thoughts;
Realistically, why were those creatures fighting together? Does it really make sense that they would get a surprise round instead of waiting quietly for the party to pass?
I love tough fights. It makes you earn your levels.
The whole level-1 dynamic is just wrong. Characters (this includes npc, etc) should start with 1dx+10, not just 1dx. The lucky one-shot at level one or two is a horrible way to die.

[Jay R]

That's the thing, Jay, what you are saying is that one's supposed to trust the dm to have made a good call no matter why just because they escaped or won

All attempts so far to rephrase my words have left out my actual message and substituted something I did not write, about a situation not germane to this thread.

I did not say "no matter why". Those aren't my words.

The game starts with trusting the DM, and that trust should last until there is a good reason to drop it. And I will state that a single encounter that looked too hard, but which you nevertheless won, is not enough evidence to treat a friend with distrust.

If that happens (an encounter looks too powerful, but you nonetheless succeed), then one of the following is true:
1. There was something the DM knew and you didn't that made the encounter less dangerous than it appeared.
2. There was a good, cool adventure available if you lost the encounter (being taken prisoner and brought into the enemy's lair, being offered a job, seducing or outbluffing on of the enemy, etc.), which you will never know about because you successfully avoided it.
3. The DM saw that the encounter was too powerful and subtly fixed the problem quickly and efficiently.
4. The DM deliberately gave you an encounter that was too hard, because he's trying to be unfair to you (and is appallingly bad at it).

The first three are quite likely, represent good quality DMing, and do in fact happen. If you immediately jump to conclusion 4, on no basis except a single encounter, then you are being unfair to your friend.

There are other possibilities, and the only data you have (you won the encounter) increases the probability of those possibilities, and decreases the probability that the DM is being unfair.


That is not a sign of a well designed encounter, and no, we're not advocating DM hatred.

Call it what you like, you are advocating blaming the DM for dishonest play when the evidence is not sufficient to justify it.


We're just saying that badly designed encounters exist, and if they're recurring, ...

If they are recurring, then you are not discussing the subject of this thread. The specific question we were asked was "Do I have grounds to say something?" after a single encounter.

That's what we were asked, and that's what I'm answering.

If you wish to discuss recurring problems, please start a different thread for it, rather than accusing me of treating recurring problems a certain way, when I have not addressed recurring problems at all.

[Andreaz]

You are right, Jay R, further discussion for recurring elements should be taken to another thread. And I agree, in this case one should not latch on to "dm's being dumb". In fact, I only raised the possibilities. But...

The specific question we were asked was "Do I have grounds to say something?" after a single encounter.

That's what we were asked, and that's what I'm answering.
First of all, any encounter is fair if it's possible to run away. Never forget that that's an option.

Second, you won. Yes, that's fair.
In any event, you won. You won the encounter. Complaints are for the ones you lose.That's not "just answering his specific case", and this is what started this discussion between you, me and a couple other guys.

I believe our points are made? I'm leaving.

[Jay R]

That's not "just answering his specific case", and this is what started this discussion between you, me and a couple other guys.

Agreed. The temptation to go off-topic affects us all.


I believe our points are made? I'm leaving.

Agreed. We both made important points, and eventually succeeded in communicating. That's how Internet discussions work at their best.