How savage progression is alive and well in 5e

[CyberThread]

So 3e had a concept of how monsters could level up into full power ala pc racial class. In 5e it seems if they are going to release monsters as pc races they have gone with the choice of lesser racial variants and feats.


The svirfneblin which is balanced as a player choice by breaking off certain abilities and making them feats. I think this shows DM'S a way to balance racial features and let players be monster races.

[Ralanr]

This also brings up the problem that every NPC of that race you fight is considered to have the feat while the PC might not.

If you fight the NPCs a lot anyway. It's not really a problem, more of an awkward situation.

[Once a Fool]

This also brings up the problem that every NPC of that race you fight is considered to have the feat while the PC might not.

PCs are "special," after all.

[ad_hoc]

This also brings up the problem that every NPC of that race you fight is considered to have the feat while the PC might not.

If you fight the NPCs a lot anyway. It's not really a problem, more of an awkward situation.

NPCs/Monsters do not follow the same rules as PCs so the issue is moot.

That being said Svirfneblin also have 3 hit dice (and so do Drow). They also wear chain shirts.

You could say that a 1st level Svirfneblin makes no sense because their NPC stats have 3 hit dice and medium armour proficiency.

So no, I don't see a problem with playing an individual who is different than the average of their race.

[silveralen]

That seems to be one issue people always disagree about: is the NPC stat block representative of the baseline of the race or merely the most common variation?

The latter seems to be what 5e is currently going for, albeit with a single example so far, which doesn't bother me overmuch.

[Clistenes]

They will never allow monsters to be able to take class levels. If they do, the PCs will turn themselves into Devas or Planetar when they learn to cast True Polymorph and start their class progression from zero all again.

[Ardantis]

They will never allow monsters to be able to take class levels. If they do, the PCs will turn themselves into Devas or Planetar when they learn to cast True Polymorph and start their class progression from zero all again.

I wish! That would be the best way for PCs to epically advance/retire.

[druid91]

They will never allow monsters to be able to take class levels. If they do, the PCs will turn themselves into Devas or Planetar when they learn to cast True Polymorph and start their class progression from zero all again.

Then why are rules for doing just that already included in the game?

[Safety Sword]

That seems to be one issue people always disagree about: is the NPC stat block representative of the baseline of the race or merely the most common variation?

The latter seems to be what 5e is currently going for, albeit with a single example so far, which doesn't bother me overmuch.

The NPC stat blocks can be seen as the average for members of that race that are most commonly encountered when PCs are adventuring.

It doesn't mean that there aren't more or less powerful members of the race out there.

[druid91]

I always figured that they would be representative of the most common combat capable type of the creature. Those aren't the stats for a random deep gnome civilian. That's an explorer/soldier/etc.

[eleazzaar]

PCs are "special," after all.

Yeah. The PCs of the standard demi-human races are generally above average for their race, even at first level, right? But if a race is significantly more powerful what's wrong with starting with a level 1 character that below average for the race?

I think the starting weaker, and then having the option to add on additional racial powers as you level is the right way to do things.

[Ralanr]

Yeah. The PCs of the standard demi-human races are generally above average for their race, even at first level, right? But if a race is significantly more powerful what's wrong with starting with a level 1 character that below average for the race?

I think the starting weaker, and then having the option to add on additional racial powers as you level is the right way to do things.

So...they're that kind of special?

Ok that's a bad joke. I apologize.

[TheOOB]

Should note, low level characters are no longer particularly exceptional, before level 5 you're not really more powerful than a town guard, a solder, or the town healer, you're just more specialized for adventuring.

Since racial stats in the MM usually indicate a combat capable member of the race, it's safe to assume they're high enough level to have some feats.

[Clistenes]

Then why are rules for doing just that already included in the game?

And how would you handle a player reaching level 17, learning True Polymorph, turning into a Deva and taking 20 class levels all over again?

[Inevitability]

Let me say something:

If the PC's encounter a NPC svirfneblin; said svirfneblin probably has grown up amongst other svirfneblins. He has lived an average svirfneblin life, done average svirfneblin things, and been trained in average svirfneblin activities. It is reasonable to assume he has spend some of his life developing his magical abilities, learning to use svirfneblin weapons, and being taught how to not die when fighting any of the many dangers of the underdark. (If the svirfneblin they encounter is not average, such as when he was raised by wolves or is actually a werebear, he will have a different statblock)

A PC svirfneblin, however, didn't have time for learning the previously mentioned things. While his friends were being taught how to use armor, Dave the svirfneblin wizard was studying his Magic Missiles. Bob the svirfneblin paladin preferred to learn divine magic, rather than understanding how to use his innate magic to be good at sneaking. If they want to learn what their brethren have learned, they need to invest time and energy in this, a process represented by feats.

PC's are 'special' in that they have different skills than the average member of their race. Your PC didn't grow up as an average svirfneblin miner, only to one day realize he wanted to be a sorcerer; he was born with sorcerous power and invested time in developing it.

[druid91]

And how would you handle a player reaching level 17, learning True Polymorph, turning into a Deva and taking 20 class levels all over again?

I should care why? They sacrifice being a 17th level caster to be a beatstick with a couple of spell-like abilities, advantage on saving throws against magic, a limited equivalent of shapechange, and 1 level of whatever class they choose to go into.

Sure, eventually they'll be strong beyond belief, but by the time that happens they're companions will have long since reached level 20 and started gaining epic boons and artifacts and things.

Though if you're asking for specific rules... the DMG page 283 should tell you.

[lianightdemon]

Which would mean the character is level 1 again but a monster and need to fight CR 17+ stuff

[jkat718]

Phase stay on topic; the whole "True Polymorph to restart leveling progression" debate is not related to this.

The one issue I have with saying "you didn't get Svirfneblin magic training because you were studying weaponry" explanation is twofold: a) if I'm a Svirfneblin Wizard, why didn't I train with Svirfneblin magic? Why did I *only* learn spells for adventuring, but didn't develop my natural ability to cast useful spells miss easily? And then b) Why would a Hill Dwarf Barbarian learn to fight in Light and Medium armor if my Natural Defense would help me anyway? Is it because that's a level one ability and, when I was "level zero," I didn't know I'd get it?

[Clistenes]

I should care why? They sacrifice being a 17th level caster to be a beatstick with a couple of spell-like abilities, advantage on saving throws against magic, a limited equivalent of shapechange, and 1 level of whatever class they choose to go into.

Sure, eventually they'll be strong beyond belief, but by the time that happens they're companions will have long since reached level 20 and started gaining epic boons and artifacts and things.

Though if you're asking for specific rules... the DMG page 283 should tell you.

Those rules are for monster encounters, not for characters. How do you handle the xp? Does it gain its first class level when it gains 300 XP, or when he reaches 85,000 XP? If the DMG doesn't explain how to level up, then it isn't explaining how to play that kind of character.

I think the developers will only adapt low CR monsters that can be easily tweaked like the Svirfneblin PC, but will keep it restricted to a very short list of species that can be easily converted to power level 1.

[Ardantis]

Those rules are for monster encounters, not for characters. How do you handle the xp? Does it gain its first class level when it gains 300 XP, or when he reaches 85,000 XP? If the DMG doesn't explain how to level up, then it isn't explaining how to play that kind of character.

I think the developers will only adapt low CR monsters that can be easily tweaked like the Svirfneblin PC, but will keep it restricted to a very short list of species that can be easily converted to power level 1.

Agreed about races.

Still want to level after true Polymorph.
Wouldn't you level at a speed equivalent to your ECL? Which means, of course, that we don't know the xp values above 20 (although we can probably calculate/estimate.)

[druid91]

Those rules are for monster encounters, not for characters. How do you handle the xp? Does it gain its first class level when it gains 300 XP, or when he reaches 85,000 XP? If the DMG doesn't explain how to level up, then it isn't explaining how to play that kind of character.

I think the developers will only adapt low CR monsters that can be easily tweaked like the Svirfneblin PC, but will keep it restricted to a very short list of species that can be easily converted to power level 1.

As there aren't any rules stating otherwise, I'd handle XP exactly the same way I'd handle it otherwise. Level 1 at 0 XP level 2 at 300, and so on.

And yes, while the true polymorph debate is a bit out of the range of the discussion, thus far the discussion has been of 'can monsters have PC levels' which they can in fact have.

[Clistenes]

Agreed about races.

Still want to level after true Polymorph.
Wouldn't you level at a speed equivalent to your ECL? Which means, of course, that we don't know the xp values above 20 (although we can probably calculate/estimate.)

Using the rules in the DMG a monster of say, CR 10 is supposed to be a deadly encounter for a 6 lvl party. But if the "party" is a single member, then the CR 10 creature is a deadly encounter for a 17 lvl character.

Taking that into account, I would say a CR 10 monster is roughly equal to a 17 lvl character.

And most CR 10 monsters have 15-18 HD, so I think it fits.

I guess you could do the same calculations for every CR and give every monster an effective level of sorts.

EDIT: I have used the same method for all monsters, and this is what I got:

a CR 1/2 monster is roughly equivalent to a 1 or 2 level character
a CR 1 monster is roughly equivalent to a 2 or 3 level character
a CR 2 monster is roughly equivalent to a 4 level character
a CR 3 monster is roughly equivalent to a 5 level character
a CR 4 monster is roughly equivalent to a 8 level character
a CR 5 monster is roughly equivalent to a 10 level character
a CR 6 monster is roughly equivalent to a 11 level character
a CR 7 monster is roughly equivalent to a 12 level character
a CR 8 monster is roughly equivalent to a 14 level character
a CR 9 monster is roughly equivalent to a 16 level character
a CR 10 monster is roughly equivalent to a 17 level character
a CR 11 monster is roughly equivalent to a 19 level character
a CR 12 monster is roughly equivalent to a 20 level character