Dwarven Love

[Zaclock]

So, I think we all agree that the addition of Sigdi to the cast is a great addition and allows us to better understand dwarven life in the story. I am not sure however how to analyze the question of dwarven love, mixing both sources from an old (#84) and a recent comic (#983).

So, at 84, Durkon says, very seriously, "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that [love], and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way."

At 983, Sigdi says "All I really want is for ye ta grow up an' find a nice gal or fella ta settle down with." [Please, don't start debating about the line here, life has more important and interesting things to discuss.]

So, how does love work in Durkon's clan? I assume that unlike in Hilgya's clan, love is an important part of social relationships, as Sigdi implies that Durkon will not have an arranged marriage and will choose his partner. But how should this work with burying these feelings and not expressing them or acting on them? Can it work on the long term as a community's practices?

[hamishspence]

I would guess that it is only feelings for "forbidden partners" (another dwarf's spouse, or a dwarf who is not your spouse if you have one, etc) that one must bury deep down if one has them.

[Keltest]

She doesn't say don't have feelings, she just says don't express them. It is entirely possible to seek out a mate that you love without gushing over them, to them or anyone else, especially if such gushing is not expected.

[Dycedarg]

I would guess that it is only feelings for "forbidden partners" (another dwarf's spouse, or a dwarf who is not your spouse if you have one, etc) that one must bury deep down if one has them.

I agree with this. Probably, an adolescent Durkon has a crush on someone who was already engaged or something, and his mom told him to take those feelings and stuff them. I haven't seen any evidence that the dwarven society is particularly stoic in any other sense, I can't see why they'd forbid expressions of love. Especially given their understanding of premarital sex. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

[Khatoblepas]

There's a chance that Durkon might actually be not telling the entire truth. Especially when he was exiled from the Dwarven lands, and had a terrible time with humans running up to his meeting with Hilgya, it might have pushed him into being real bitter.

It could actually be a projection of his despair at being exiled - he mentions "what does being happy have to do with being a dwarf", and Hilgya's shirking of her responsibilities is the polar opposite situation of Durkon's - Instead of staying behind in Dwarven lands with someone who loved her, she ran away to live amongst humans. Durkon was forced out of his lands to live amongst humans, and up until the OoTS he hated them all.

And every time he looks at Hilgya, he's going to be reminded she ran away from the thing he wants most in all the world: Home. And his mother might not have even said those words, those words might be Durkon trying not to be overwhelmed with grief and homesickness.

[Glodart]

What I think the line in #84 refers to is not necessarily love. I think it referred to feelings in the way of a dwarf's Duty.

[Snails]

It is perfectly reasonable for Durkon to be playing up the repressedish sounding angle because he is feeling sorry for himself. (And the Giant is playing it up for the sake of humor as well.) As others have pointed out, he does not literally say to never ever have feelings, because, in this context, the topic of discussion are the specific feelings that involve breaking a sacred oath (the wedding vow). His words are ambiguous, but the context strongly points to a particular direction.

And to be explicit, what exactly is the point of an oath unless there is a likelihood that there will be pain associated with fulfilling it? Durkon is simply stating the obvious, from his point of view -- that only fulfilling oaths when they keep you happy is arguing against all oaths always, and that is a bunch of gibberish to any proper dwarf.

Of course, Hilgya is obviously no "proper" dwarf, and this is just one of many ways that Durkon is quite naive.

[Murk]

I'm going to pretend the story nowadays is in any way in line with the early strips.

I actually think Durkons view on love and feelings might be because of his rather loving and open mother. Remember the part about her giving Durkon good advice leading to Durkon letting Roy get munched on by a frog? Yeah.
I don't know what happened to Sigdi. She might still be alive, but she might also have come to an untimely demise. I am guessing, either way, that Durkon has drawn his own life lessons from his interactions with her, many of which are rather extreme or rigid compared to those of his mom.

[Rakoa]

Sigdi is alive as far as Durkon knows. And wasn't he informed when one of his uncles died? He would certainly be informed were his mother to be found dead.

[Grey Watcher]

I always thought that the feelings to be suppressed were ones that ran contrary to your duty. And since Durkon thinks Hilgya's duty is to return home and make her marriage work (or at least get a proper divorce or annulment), her feelings for Durkon fall into that category.

[Yendor]

I would guess that it is only feelings for "forbidden partners" (another dwarf's spouse, or a dwarf who is not your spouse if you have one, etc) that one must bury deep down if one has them.

That seems reasonable, and possibly the simplest explanation. Durkon is very Lawful, so would be the type to take a marriage vow very seriously.

On another note, Loki's comment in 501 is kinda funny in retrospect.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think it was more about how Dwarves should value duty above other things, not that love itself is a feeling to be buried deep inside. It could also be referring to feelings that are deemed improper to have, i.e attraction to the spouse of another.

[mikeejimbo]

I think some other evidence points to the fact that dwarven spouses do/can love one another, but it's possible to pick your own spouse based on attributes other than love.

[Quild]

Sigdi is alive as far as Durkon knows. And wasn't he informed when one of his uncles died? He would certainly be informed were his mother to be found dead.

Durkon has shown in the past that he can go too far in things he's told. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html)

[kgato503]

Sigdi is alive as far as Durkon knows. And wasn't he informed when one of his uncles died? He would certainly be informed were his mother to be found dead.

If I recall correctly, Durkon never received that message. That message (which also said that the preist responsible for Durkon's exile was dead, and he was welcome home since no one else knew why he was exiled) was being carrird my Miko when she triped over the main plot and lost her bag with the note in it. The note was then eaten by the MitD.

So, as far as we know, Durkon thinks his mother is alive, and has no particular reason to think his uncle is dead.

Edit: As for the question at hand, I agree that the first quote was most likely more about feelings that mess with a dwarf's duty, rather than just being about love in general. Quite possibly with a good sized dose of puting-it-out-of-proportion mixed in.

[Quild]

It was his grandfather. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) He was mentionned in SoD.
Luckily he didn't went to Hel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

It's kinda surprising that Durkon never mentionned other members of his family before. I guess the idea to include Durkon's mother in the story came way later.

[Zordrath]

It's also quite possible that we haven't seen Sigdi's whole story yet. By many standards she's already leading quite a hard life, there may well be some strokes of misfortune ahead that make her more cynical and closed off.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's also quite possible that we haven't seen Sigdi's whole story yet. By many standards she's already leading quite a hard life, there may well be some strokes of misfortune ahead that make her more cynical and closed off.

To add to this, I doubt the snippets were getting are in chronological order. Which ties into that comic Quild linked, with memories linking up in unexpected, non-chronological ways.