Grappling Rogue advice

[lonewulf]

Im wanting to play a semi-sociopathic rogue who specializes in running up to his enemies, grabbing them, and then stabbing the holy hell out of them violently and repeatedly (with sneak attack). Not really needing to be fully optimized as flavor and rule of cool are very welcome.

My thought so far is Half-Elf (pretty MAD build) for +2 cha, +1 str and +1 dex.
Rogue (swashbuckler) x/bard (lore)3/fighter (dueling) 2
Seems to have decent synergy but there are tons of different grapple builds. Thoughts? Advice? Thanks for taking the time to read.

[BranMan]

Interestingly, you don't need much dex for this build. The most you'll need is 14, so as to make full advantage of medium armor if you do multiclass to fighter. I would also go for Variant Human for this build so you can start out with the grappler feat (adv. on targets you're grappling) for constant sneak attacks. I would also advise against excessive multiclassing as it requires lots of odd 13s in things like charisma and perhaps strength.

I would go for a strength and con build, so as to avoid the MAD, and drop bard. You can still sneak attack with a strength based rapier when you're grappling, and with human you end up with:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 10

This allows for pretty good tankiness despite relatively low AC (14 with studded leather) and d8 hit dice. Also, you might want to rush to rogue 5 for uncanny dodge, which nearly doubles your effective hit points and increases your critically important survivability.

For your rougish archetype, I would suggest thief (AT makes you MADder and asassin doesn't really work considering that on the first turn you're going to want to start a grapple) and focus your skillset around strength and wisdom based skills. The only dex skill you'll really need is stealth and getting expertise in perception can bump your passive perception above 20, eventually. Your other expertise will obviously go to athletics, giving you a sweet +7 at level 1.

In terms of multiclassing, the two fighter levels give you dueling, action surge, second wind (tankiness), and medium armor proficiency. All of these are helpful, but they will delay your ASIs for a bit. If you want to consider a more abstract MC option, try a level of barbarian. For absolutely unstoppable grappling, you can rage to get advantage on your +7 athletics skill. Wrestling a dragon at level 2? No problem. In addition, Unarmored defense not only allows you to bypass the stealth disadvantage of many medium armors, but also bumps you to a decent 15 AC. Cheaper, too. Lastly, the resistance to bl, sl, and pi damage can be nice for improving tankiness.

Hope I could help! Grappling rogues are a really cool concept and I wish you luck!

[Easy_Lee]

I agree with the barbarian choice, for all of the reasons given. You might even take 5 levels of barbarian so that you can grapple a target and make an attack in the same action.

The biggest limit to grappling builds is foes who you can't grapple. Most of those are due to size restrictions. With that in mind, keep an eye out for anything which can increase your size, preferably permanently.

[ChubbyRain]

One of the coolest grapple builds I've seen thus far...

Paladin of Ancients / Rogue

Using spells to ensnare the targets, then running up, grappling the target, and then performing a smiting sneak attack the bugger each round.

Take the grappler feat, the grappler feat is your friend.

You want a Strength based rogue with starting score of 13 or 14. Not hard to do really. Now if you start paladin you gain heavy armor and you can leave your Dex at 13. Your con may be lower but 5 levels of Rogue will help with that.

[BranMan]

One of the best ways to increase size (and tankiness) is to take a two level dip into moon druid, and turn into bears. Cunning action with wildshape is great at low levels where mobility and where you are in the battlefield can be very important. This would mean a 13 in wisdom, but you won't need much more than that since spells will not be your focus. There's some quarrel over whether or not bear claws (or perhaps tiger claws) can be counted as finesse weapons. by RAW, you can't, but in reality, tigers are very precise and will aim right for the jugular vein of their target. Bears are not as precise, but an argument could be made to a lenient DM.

Alternatively, cut the moon druid crap and get your caster to cast enlarge on you every once and a while for practically the same benefits with hardly any investment. It is a team game, after all, and the prospect of collaboration is the one thing missing from many builds.

[ChubbyRain]

One of the best ways to increase size (and tankiness) is to take a two level dip into moon druid, and turn into bears. Cunning action with wildshape is great at low levels where mobility and where you are in the battlefield can be very important. This would mean a 13 in wisdom, but you won't need much more than that since spells will not be your focus. There's some quarrel over whether or not bear claws (or perhaps tiger claws) can be counted as finesse weapons. by RAW, you can't, but in reality, tigers are very precise and will aim right for the jugular vein of their target. Bears are not as precise, but an argument could be made to a lenient DM.

Alternatively, cut the moon druid crap and get your caster to cast enlarge on you every once and a while for practically the same benefits with hardly any investment. It is a team game, after all, and the prospect of collaboration is the one thing missing from many builds.

Yeah bears don't last long at later levels... Like even starting at level6+ I've seen bears be just an "OK" choice. Moon druid peaks at weird times.

Enlarge is a much better option. I would suggest a Sorcerer get it and then Twin it, because while you are grappling a team mate can be wailing on it too.

[lonewulf]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Im considering Barbarian but would like to avoid shape-changing with Druid. Bard can get me both Enlarge and Enhanced Ability and ive considered more Bard levels. Paladin hadnt occured to me so ill look further into that.

Variant Human is being highly considered but Halfelf gets alot of good bonuses.

[MrStabby]

Also there is the whole opposable thumbs thing. AFB at the moment but I think you can't grapple unless the creature you change into could grapple - so a crocodile can (as I think it explicitly says it can) but I would say a bear can't. I would allow a giant ape to grapple as physiologically it can grasp things.

[Symphony]

If I'm remembering correctly, Enlarge/Reduce is a 2nd level Wizard spell. In that case you could get it from Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight with their limited any-school spell choices.

[ChubbyRain]

Also there is the whole opposable thumbs thing. AFB at the moment but I think you can't grapple unless the creature you change into could grapple - so a crocodile can (as I think it explicitly says it can) but I would say a bear can't. I would allow a giant ape to grapple as physiologically it can grasp things.

Really?

Really?

A bear can't grapple because it doesn't have thumbs?

Either you or the book is so far out of line I just... I just can't right now.

I'm turning off giantitp for the day, y'all have a nice day.

[Easy_Lee]

If you're considering bard, a pure valor bard actually makes the overall best grappler IMO. You can take war caster and Resilient CON to ensure that you keep your spells, you can turn reactions into spells when targets break free and try to run away, you can maintain your own enlarge and eventually pick up Hex if you want it, and you get the exact armor proficiency and Extra attack that you need. Stats come late, but that doesn't matter when we're grappling with expertise and attacking with advantage.

However, that build would be discouraged from multiclassing with rogue. It might actually be better in that instance to just shocking grasp the opponent repeatedly, stealing their reaction, and eventually pick up shillelagh to smack the target with CHA damage as a bonus attack after 14.

[-Jynx-]

Why not try halfling swashbuckler rogue. This would require you to ask your DM about a few things but given your concept he/she may allow it.

Take tavern brawler so you can grapple after your attack, but instead try and climb on the creature rather than pinning it down (since you intend on shanking it mercilessly anyways). Swashbuckler giving you sneak attack without the need for advantage and see if in instances where you're grappling on a target like that if you can use acrobatics in place of athletics (but even if you can't expertise and a decent str score will serve you just fine)

You'd have the added bonus of sneaking up while behind people before commencing a shank-down and tavern brawler will let you improvise your arsenal so don't have a knife on you? No problem that broken bottle over there will do just nicely. Who needs a knife when a shard of glass does just as well.

[lonewulf]

Loving the ideas so far but i would like to point out one thing: this isnt about optimizing a 'best grappler' build but rather optimizing a specific tactic in grappling. Which is that of the sneak attacking grappler. So Rogue is essential for this build.

Not trying to discourage talk of grappling in general (as grappling is a varied and awesome topic), just wanted to point that out.

[BranMan]

Granted your parameters, I would say either straight rogue or rogue with a splash of barbarian for your build. Start out as barbarian if you want medium armor, or just don't wear armor and get the unarmored defense bonuses.

If you are particularly keen on having the ability to eventually enlarge, I would say to invest some of your wis or dex points into intelligence and go with the arcane trickster. You won't get enlarge/reduce or enhance ability (which you shouldn't need if you splash barbarian) until 8th level, which is about the time that your foes start to get significantly bigger. However, at 8th level, you can only choose one of those spells to learn.

I would consider dropping the need for bard and avoiding MAD as much as possible. Spellcasting and Grappling aren't a great mix, as you will tend to lose concentration fairly easily. The exception to this is when you go full bard, and that's not an option as it doesn't SA.

Being a halfling probably isn't a good idea, as you're way too small to dream of grappling big things.

Another reason for not taking bard would be that both rogues and bards get expertise, and you only need one source of expertise for your grappling.

The half-elf bonuses over the v. human bonuses are +2 cha- your choice is whether it is more important to gain a feat (grappler is a pretty important feat for your build) or +2 cha and a skill proficiency.

[Easy_Lee]

Granted your parameters, I would say either straight rogue or rogue with a splash of barbarian for your build. Start out as barbarian if you want medium armor, or just don't wear armor and get the unarmored defense bonuses.

If you are particularly keen on having the ability to eventually enlarge, I would say to invest some of your wis or dex points into intelligence and go with the arcane trickster. You won't get enlarge/reduce or enhance ability (which you shouldn't need if you splash barbarian) until 8th level, which is about the time that your foes start to get significantly bigger. However, at 8th level, you can only choose one of those spells to learn.

I would consider dropping the need for bard and avoiding MAD as much as possible. Spellcasting and Grappling aren't a great mix, as you will tend to lose concentration fairly easily. The exception to this is when you go full bard, and that's not an option as it doesn't SA.

Being a halfling probably isn't a good idea, as you're way too small to dream of grappling big things.

Another reason for not taking bard would be that both rogues and bards get expertise, and you only need one source of expertise for your grappling.

The half-elf bonuses over the v. human bonuses are +2 cha- your choice is whether it is more important to gain a feat (grappler is a pretty important feat for your build) or +2 cha and a skill proficiency.

I agree with all of this.

[lonewulf]

Granted your parameters, I would say either straight rogue or rogue with a splash of barbarian for your build. Start out as barbarian if you want medium armor, or just don't wear armor and get the unarmored defense bonuses.

If you are particularly keen on having the ability to eventually enlarge, I would say to invest some of your wis or dex points into intelligence and go with the arcane trickster. You won't get enlarge/reduce or enhance ability (which you shouldn't need if you splash barbarian) until 8th level, which is about the time that your foes start to get significantly bigger. However, at 8th level, you can only choose one of those spells to learn.

I would consider dropping the need for bard and avoiding MAD as much as possible. Spellcasting and Grappling aren't a great mix, as you will tend to lose concentration fairly easily. The exception to this is when you go full bard, and that's not an option as it doesn't SA.

Being a halfling probably isn't a good idea, as you're way too small to dream of grappling big things.

Another reason for not taking bard would be that both rogues and bards get expertise, and you only need one source of expertise for your grappling.

The half-elf bonuses over the v. human bonuses are +2 cha- your choice is whether it is more important to gain a feat (grappler is a pretty important feat for your build) or +2 cha and a skill proficiency.

Good points but i disagree (respectfully) about Half Elf vs V Human. It isn't just +2 Cha and a Skill vs a feat. It is also immunity to magic sleep and 60' dark vision which are both useful. Also, Grappler isnt a great feat (though it is good) for this build as I wont need advantage for Sneak Attack 95% of the time.

Also, Bard brings a lot (including flavor) to the table. More Expertise is never bad for outside of combat. Spellcasting for self-reliability in combat (though concentration can cause some problems). Cutting Words is great. More skill profs are always welcome. Jack of All Trades stacks nicely with Swashbuckler for Initiative bonus.

[BranMan]

Good points but i disagree (respectfully) about Half Elf vs V Human. It isn't just +2 Cha and a Skill vs a feat. It is also immunity to magic sleep and 60' dark vision which are both useful. Also, Grappler isnt a great feat (though it is good) for this build as I wont need advantage for Sneak Attack 95% of the time.

Also, Bard brings a lot (including flavor) to the table. More Expertise is never bad for outside of combat. Spellcasting for self-reliability in combat (though concentration can cause some problems). Cutting Words is great. More skill profs are always welcome. Jack of All Trades stacks nicely with Swashbuckler for Initiative bonus.

You're correct about the half elf thing, and I had forgotten that you plan to go swashbuckler for the easy sneak attack on targets that you're next to. What this means is that you can run a less tanky, more versatile build, which is not bad if that's what you want to focus on. Cutting words is pretty awesome for grappling, as it can reduce their skill check result. The only problem is that if you want to sneak attack and cast spells and be decent with them, you will not only be MAD, you'll be spread thin. It's a pretty big sacrifice to competence at specific tasks to try to be decent at many of them. Then again, if that's your goal, to be decent at several things, that's totally fine and the flavor is cool.

My last point would be that D&D is a team game, and in order to shine, you can afford to have some weaknesses, with the rest of your party to cover them. The trade off of specialization versus flexibility goes all the way back to 2nd Edition, and the answer comes down to personal preference. IMO, specialization takes the cake because a group of specialists can cover every need really well, while a group of specialists and flexible characters can do a few things well and lots of other things decently. I find that the game is more fun when I'm really good at what I do.

Then again, in AL I play a Moon Druid 5 Rogue 2 with the mobile feat and the grappler feat, giving me many different possibilities within my different beast forms, the ability to move to different parts of the battlefield with ease, and spellcasting to boot. It's a very fun character, but I do sometimes envy the fighters and rangers who dish out 30+ damage in a round, consistently, and the wizards who have 4th level spells and can throw fireballs around.

[lonewulf]

You're correct about the half elf thing, and I had forgotten that you plan to go swashbuckler for the easy sneak attack on targets that you're next to. What this means is that you can run a less tanky, more versatile build, which is not bad if that's what you want to focus on. Cutting words is pretty awesome for grappling, as it can reduce their skill check result. The only problem is that if you want to sneak attack and cast spells and be decent with them, you will not only be MAD, you'll be spread thin. It's a pretty big sacrifice to competence at specific tasks to try to be decent at many of them. Then again, if that's your goal, to be decent at several things, that's totally fine and the flavor is cool.

My last point would be that D&D is a team game, and in order to shine, you can afford to have some weaknesses, with the rest of your party to cover them. The trade off of specialization versus flexibility goes all the way back to 2nd Edition, and the answer comes down to personal preference. IMO, specialization takes the cake because a group of specialists can cover every need really well, while a group of specialists and flexible characters can do a few things well and lots of other things decently. I find that the game is more fun when I'm really good at what I do.

Then again, in AL I play a Moon Druid 5 Rogue 2 with the mobile feat and the grappler feat, giving me many different possibilities within my different beast forms, the ability to move to different parts of the battlefield with ease, and spellcasting to boot. It's a very fun character, but I do sometimes envy the fighters and rangers who dish out 30+ damage in a round, consistently, and the wizards who have 4th level spells and can throw fireballs around.

Having started with 2E back in the day I can definetly see where you are coming from. Again, you make valid points and you get them across very well. But, me being me, I have to argue a bit more lol.

This build is only a little MAD. Str and Cha (cutting words) are the main concerns. The highest Dex would ever need to be is 14 (medium armor, finesse weapons can still use str). Con is fine at 12. Int and Wis can be dumped with little problem (Wis saves can be scary, i know). Half-Elf gives me all 3 stat boosts i need and after that Str is the only real stat that needs boosting by ASI.

Using standard array i could have 16 str, 15 cha, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 wis and 8 int.
Point buy would net me 16 str, 16 cha, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 wis and 8 int.
My MAD needs are easily met right there. Use my ASIs to boost str and nab Warcaster feat to help maintain concentration on Enlarge, which is the only spell i need worry about when grappling is available. And as long as i can grapple i will only grapple. No other feats are really needed as Grappler and Tavern Brawler dont do much for me.

This build isnt worried about being good at spells in general. Just to boost its own grappling. When grappling isnt an option i can just spam whatever else i have or go with archery just so that im not useless.
I am meant to specialize in single-target slaughter. The jack-of-all-trades aspect of Bard is only an added perk...Enlarge/Enhanced Ability + Cutting Words is the main point of Bard. Just as medium armor + Action Surge (and kinda Second Wind and Dueling) are the point of Fighter. All things that help my concept.

Now, having argued all that, all the advice/opinions posted here so far are leaving me with an open mind and making me rethink some things...nothing is set in stone.

[BranMan]

Having started with 2E back in the day I can definetly see where you are coming from. Again, you make valid points and you get them across very well. But, me being me, I have to argue a bit more lol.

This build is only a little MAD. Str and Cha (cutting words) are the main concerns. The highest Dex would ever need to be is 14 (medium armor, finesse weapons can still use str). Con is fine at 12. Int and Wis can be dumped with little problem (Wis saves can be scary, i know). Half-Elf gives me all 3 stat boosts i need and after that Str is the only real stat that needs boosting by ASI.

Using standard array i could have 16 str, 15 cha, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 wis and 8 int.
Point buy would net me 16 str, 16 cha, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 wis and 8 int.
My MAD needs are easily met right there. Use my ASIs to boost str and nab Warcaster feat to help maintain concentration on Enlarge, which is the only spell i need worry about when grappling is available. And as long as i can grapple i will only grapple. No other feats are really needed as Grappler and Tavern Brawler dont do much for me.

This build isnt worried about being good at spells in general. Just to boost its own grappling. When grappling isnt an option i can just spam whatever else i have or go with archery just so that im not useless.
I am meant to specialize in single-target slaughter. The jack-of-all-trades aspect of Bard is only an added perk...Enlarge/Enhanced Ability + Cutting Words is the main point of Bard. Just as medium armor + Action Surge (and kinda Second Wind and Dueling) are the point of Fighter. All things that help my concept.

Now, having argued all that, all the advice/opinions posted here so far are leaving me with an open mind and making me rethink some things...nothing is set in stone.

Don't worry about the arguing thing- that's what forums are for!

In terms of MAD, I think you've got me beat. You make a perfectly reasonable claim. The only thing I would caution you against is the 12 Con. Those few points per level go a long way. It will likely be a long time until you get to Rogue 5, especially with the bard levels. Do you have an idea of what your actual progression will be? at level 7, assuming rog 4 brd 3, you have 45 hitpoints. Let's say you grapple a Young Black Dragon, CR 7. Since you're grappling it, it is likely to only be attacking you. It makes 3 attacks, each at +7 to hit. That means you're getting hit on a 10 or higher. Let's say each attack hits- that's 19 + 11 + 11 for 41 damage. You're nearly dead. If the dragon only hits on 2 attacks, you take either 22 or 30 damage. Either way, you're likely to be down by round two.

Next level, you get uncanny dodge, but you're level eight, so you fight a Young Green Dragon. It makes three attacks as well, against your 17 AC, 51 HP. It has a +7 to hit as well. Because of this, let's say he hits only twice. You use uncanny dodge on the bite, so it deals only 22 damage. You can last 3 rounds- not bad, but still not long.

Now, barb 1 rogue 6 (maybe with arcane trickster?) you have 17 AC in half-plate and 15 AC unarmored. Perhaps a party member was able to cast enlarge on you, or maybe you found a scroll. You go into a rage and grapple the black dragon. It attacks you thrice, once more hitting two times. You use your uncanny dodge to halve the bite attack, and it deals 3 piercing damage (rage gives resistance) and 4 acid damage. The claw attack does 5, for a total of 12 damage. Since your Constitution is at least 14, you have between 56 and 63 hitpoints (12+30+14 or 21). You can probably make it to the end of the encounter without even needing healing.

Of course, in none of these situations did the dragons use their breath weapons, and other party members weren't really taken into consideration. Furthermore, not every fight will be with a dragon.

I'm not that great with math, but from what I've worked out here, if you want to be tanky, barbarian and accelerated rogue levels are the way to go. If you'd rather be versatile, a skillmonkey, and flexible, you can be all of those things, but you will not be lasting long in combat without significant magical healing.

I hope this helps; I do not mean to say that your decisions are wrong, and I honor the fact that it's 100% your character and your decision. I simply mean to help you in making the wisest decision possible. I keep in mind that that decision may not be in line with my opinion.

Sorry for the huge block of text :smalltongue:

[lonewulf]

Don't worry about the arguing thing- that's what forums are for!

In terms of MAD, I think you've got me beat. You make a perfectly reasonable claim. The only thing I would caution you against is the 12 Con. Those few points per level go a long way. It will likely be a long time until you get to Rogue 5, especially with the bard levels. Do you have an idea of what your actual progression will be? at level 7, assuming rog 4 brd 3, you have 45 hitpoints. Let's say you grapple a Young Black Dragon, CR 7. Since you're grappling it, it is likely to only be attacking you. It makes 3 attacks, each at +7 to hit. That means you're getting hit on a 10 or higher. Let's say each attack hits- that's 19 + 11 + 11 for 41 damage. You're nearly dead. If the dragon only hits on 2 attacks, you take either 22 or 30 damage. Either way, you're likely to be down by round two.

Next level, you get uncanny dodge, but you're level eight, so you fight a Young Green Dragon. It makes three attacks as well, against your 17 AC, 51 HP. It has a +7 to hit as well. Because of this, let's say he hits only twice. You use uncanny dodge on the bite, so it deals only 22 damage. You can last 3 rounds- not bad, but still not long.

Now, barb 1 rogue 6 (maybe with arcane trickster?) you have 17 AC in half-plate and 15 AC unarmored. Perhaps a party member was able to cast enlarge on you, or maybe you found a scroll. You go into a rage and grapple the black dragon. It attacks you thrice, once more hitting two times. You use your uncanny dodge to halve the bite attack, and it deals 3 piercing damage (rage gives resistance) and 4 acid damage. The claw attack does 5, for a total of 12 damage. Since your Constitution is at least 14, you have between 56 and 63 hitpoints (12+30+14 or 21). You can probably make it to the end of the encounter without even needing healing.

Of course, in none of these situations did the dragons use their breath weapons, and other party members weren't really taken into consideration. Furthermore, not every fight will be with a dragon.

I'm not that great with math, but from what I've worked out here, if you want to be tanky, barbarian and accelerated rogue levels are the way to go. If you'd rather be versatile, a skillmonkey, and flexible, you can be all of those things, but you will not be lasting long in combat without significant magical healing.

I hope this helps; I do not mean to say that your decisions are wrong, and I honor the fact that it's 100% your character and your decision. I simply mean to help you in making the wisest decision possible. I keep in mind that that decision may not be in line with my opinion.

Sorry for the huge block of text :smalltongue:

No worries man. Any and all advice is welcomed.

You are indeed right about my build not lasting long without some form of party support. Second Wind can only do so much (and not much at that). Its a glass canon type of build for sure. Rogue 15/Barb 5 is very tempting though...Bear Totem and Extra Attack is very nice lol.

I prefer the flavorlicious fluff of my build but making a Raging sociopathic Rogue could be fun as well. I think im going to plot all the pros/cons of a few builds from lvl1-20 and go with what seems best (taking flavor into account as well). I have a month to figure it out so no big rush lol.

[BranMan]

No worries man. Any and all advice is welcomed.

You are indeed right about my build not lasting long without some form of party support. Second Wind can only do so much (and not much at that). Its a glass canon type of build for sure. Rogue 15/Barb 5 is very tempting though...Bear Totem and Extra Attack is very nice lol.

I prefer the flavorlicious fluff of my build but making a Raging sociopathic Rogue could be fun as well. I think im going to plot all the pros/cons of a few builds from lvl1-20 and go with what seems best (taking flavor into account as well). I have a month to figure it out so no big rush lol.

The point of glass cannons is that they do loads of damage, and then peter out, but this build, assuming bard 3 rogue 4, (in the two or so rounds that it stays alive) does 1d8+4 + 2d6 + 1d4 for about 20 damage, (18 str from ASI?) and since you're alive for two turns you deal 40 damage. This isn't nothing, but it also assumes you hit both times. Comparably, a barb 1 rogue 6 deals (18 str from ASI) 1d8+6 + 3d6 for about 22, and since they can last for a very long time, they could be doing about 88 to 100 damage in the encounter. The dpr is almost identical despite the barbarian having much more HP. A rogue 5 Fighter 2 who action surges deals 1d8+6 + 3d6 as well, and has survivability somewhere in between the two. If the fighter action surges, they deal 66 damage in two turns. They also can last between 3 and 4 rounds, so they'll end up with about 90 damage before they drop. Not too shabby.

As you can see, this doesn't take into account several things, such as cutting words from the bard or second wind from the fighter or the fact that this assumes a hit every attack and that the first turn is going to be used to grapple.

I like the barb 5 rogue 15 idea. If anything, I would guess that barbarians fit your design goal the best in terms of sociopathy.

You have plenty of time to make your decision, and I'm sure I could argue for days about this, but ultimately you should pick the build that will be the most fun for you.