Teach the Paladin about spellcasting!

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello all,
I posted yesterday about a reasonable vampire template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414865-Making-a-reasonable-vampire-PC), and now I am back for build advice. I'm usually a front line tank, so for this next character I will be stepping a little further out of my comfort zone.

I will be playing a LN Vampire who worships Kelemvor. (I know, there is a lot wrong with that sentence.) But all that aside, I was originally interested in full Sorcerer as my class, but with it's poor BaB and my poor ability to heal (being undead), I have been looking into Mystic Theurge. I am concerned that losing two levels on Sorc initially because of my template and then three more on cleric sets me behind quite a bit. I'd like to focus more on the Arcane than the Divine.

I'll eventually be able to buy off my template, but I am still concerned about the level loss on Sorc. To be honest, I'd like to play a hybrid of the full BaB with Divine Power and Sorcerer. But I don't know if that'd work well. I also wouldn't get access to the War domain because I worship Kelemvor.

My problems may be self inflicted here. But perhaps the playground can provide some help! My DM is very opposed to cheese. So lets try to stay away from it.

Build Path:
1) Favored Soul
1. Able Learner
1. Heighten Spell

2-3) Sorcerer
3. Versatile Spellcaster

4-13) Mystic Theurge
4. +1 Charisma
6. Arcane Disciple
8. +1 Charisma
9. Extend Spell
12. Persistent Spell
12. +1 Charisma

14-20) Sorcerer
15. Maximize Spell
16. +1 Charisma
18. Empower Spell
20. +1 Charisma

[Extra Anchovies]

Generally, Mailman doesn't need full BAB; they rely on touch/ranged touch spells to do their work. If you want a blaster with divine spells, I'd suggest Warmage/Rainbow Servant, but that's more than a little incompatible with fluff. Also, the Mailman build generally doesn't have three feats open for Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent, which is part of what makes clerics powerful. Since you're already down two levels from the template, I would pick one type of casting and stick with it; a sorcerer/MT with +2 LA doesn't even get eighth-level spells by ECL 20.

[LoyalPaladin]

Generally, Mailman doesn't need full BAB; they rely on touch/ranged touch spells to do their work. If you want a blaster with divine spells, I'd suggest Warmage/Rainbow Servant, but that's more than a little incompatible with fluff. Also, the Mailman build generally doesn't have three feats open for Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent, which is part of what makes clerics powerful. Since you're already down two levels from the template, I would pick one type of casting and stick with it; a sorcerer/MT with +2 LA doesn't even get eighth-level spells by ECL 20.
Hmmm... That is unfortunate. I'm leaning more towards Sorc than Cleric. But I'd love rebuke undead attempts and the ability to spontaneously cast inflict spells. The full BaB was more of a fluff thing, considering vampires are generally fairly capable melee combatants.

Perhaps I should say I was looking for a Spontaneous Arcane version of the Wizard. So mailman was probably a poor statement. I'd like to get a versatile spontaneous spellcaster and some cleric heals/melee potential.

This might be a case of "You can't have your cake and eat it too."

[Rebel7284]

Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer x with Versatile spellcaster+ highten spell for early entry

[Flickerdart]

Hmmm... That is unfortunate. I'm leaning more towards Sorc than Cleric. But I'd love rebuke undead attempts and the ability to spontaneously cast inflict spells. The full BaB was more of a fluff thing, considering vampires are generally fairly capable melee combatants.
Sorcerers already cast spontaneously, so you could just get some Inflicts on your spells known; see if your DM will allow Extra Spell to take spells that are not from your class list.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmmm... That is unfortunate. I'm leaning more towards Sorc than Cleric. But I'd love rebuke undead attempts and the ability to spontaneously cast inflict spells. The full BaB was more of a fluff thing, considering vampires are generally fairly capable melee combatants.

Perhaps I should say I was looking for a Spontaneous Arcane version of the Wizard. So mailman was probably a poor statement. I'd like to get a versatile spontaneous spellcaster and some cleric heals/melee potential.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.
Asking your DM if you can pick up a few cure/inflict spells is probably all you need to do. Not sure how to get a hold of rebuke undead that scales with arcane caster level, though. Maybe ask if you can trade it for your familiar?


This might be a case of "You can't have your cake and eat it too."

That may be the case, but here in optimization-land we can eat the cake and keep the ice assassin of its aleax :smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer x with Versatile spellcaster+ highten spell for early entry
Oh. That would probably work. Would I be able to use Arcane Disciple to get Divine Might?


Sorcerers already cast spontaneously, so you could just get some Inflicts on your spells known; see if your DM will allow Extra Spell to take spells that are not from your class list.
Right. I'll message him about that.


Maybe ask if you can trade it for your familiar?
I would be 100% game for that.


That may be the case, but here in optimization-land we can eat the cake and keep the ice assassin of its aleax :smallbiggrin:
Hahaha.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh. That would probably work. Would I be able to use Arcane Disciple to get Divine Might?

Nope, Divine Might (the feat from Complete Warrior) requires turn/rebuke undead and Arcane Disciple doesn't grant that. If you're referring to Divine Power, you could get it through Arcane Disciple for the Competition, Fury, Orc, Pride, or War domains.

[thethird]

Nope, Divine Might (the feat from Complete Warrior) requires turn/rebuke undead and Arcane Disciple doesn't grant that. If you're referring to Divine Power, you could get it through Arcane Disciple for the Competition, Fury, Orc, Pride, or War domains.

Unfortunately none of those domains is granted by Kelemvor.

[Rebel7284]

Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge x with Versatile spellcaster+ highten spell for early entry

Sorry, I was rushing and miss-typed.

[LoyalPaladin]

Nope, Divine Might (the feat from Complete Warrior) requires turn/rebuke undead and Arcane Disciple doesn't grant that. If you're referring to Divine Power, you could get it through Arcane Disciple for the Competition, Fury, Orc, Pride, or War domains.
Woopsies. I definitely meant Divine Power. Is the whole "I worship Kelemvor" going to throw me out of the competition for those domains? Or would it be appropriate to say he is more like an affiliate of mine and that I don't actually have a deity I worship?

The character fluff is that he was slain, but there are so many undead in the world that Kelemvor revived him at a fraction of his former power. So basically Kelemvor made an undead to eliminate the copious amounts of undead that he detests. I'll also regain power by slaying undead. (That's a me/dm thing.)

[Ruethgar]

The feats: God Touched, Divine Channeler and Extra Turnig get you some turning at half character level(not great but still).

Remember that each non-wizard/monk/sorcerer gets at least one retraiable feat at first level(only base PHB classes get more). This includes a bonus feat from prestige and alternate classes like Stalwart&Battle Sorcerers(if you wanted a little melee potential at the cost of spells).

Also, MT is one of the classes with an easy test based prereque that allows it to be entered at level 3.

As noted before, sorcerers can select any spell they are familiar with, so you could go a little omnisipher and be intimately familiar with all divine spells. Also taking the next feat in the aforementioned line for Minor Divine Spellcasting makes you undoubtedly familiar with Cure/Inflict minor wounds at the very least.

[Flickerdart]

Or would it be appropriate to say he is more like an affiliate of mine and that I don't actually have a deity I worship?
The Arcane Disciple feat technically does not require you to worship the deity you select for it. It says "choose a deity" and not "choose a deity that you worship."

[Extra Anchovies]

Remember that each non-wizard/monk/sorcerer gets at least one retraiable feat at first level(only base PHB classes get more). This includes a bonus feat from prestige and alternate classes like Stalwart&Battle Sorcerers(if you wanted a little melee potential at the cost of spells).

What? I don't know where the heck you get that from. Wizard, Monk, and Sorcerer all get their first-level feats too. And nobody gets more than one unrestricted feat at first level unless they're Human. Unless this is a rule specific to the game LP's going to be playing in, and you happen to be DM?

[LoyalPaladin]

The Arcane Disciple feat technically does not require you to worship the deity you select for it. It says "choose a deity" and not "choose a deity that you worship."
Oh. That is handy.


Unless this is a rule specific to the game LP's going to be playing in, and you happen to be DM?
That'd be news to me. It'd also blow my mind.

[thethird]

He is referencing armor proficiency feats.

[Flickerdart]

What? I don't know where the heck you get that from. Wizard, Monk, and Sorcerer all get their first-level feats too. And nobody gets more than one unrestricted feat at first level unless they're Human. Unless this is a rule specific to the game LP's going to be playing in, and you happen to be DM?
He seems to believe that Weapon Proficiency (Martial) can be retrained into a different feat.

[LoyalPaladin]

I've updated the OP. Does that look like a decent build?

[Rebel7284]

I've updated the OP. Does that look like a decent build?

Overall good, but some comments/questions:

1. Make sure you are using this article to pick up the needed Knowledge[Religion] skill for your favored soul: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x
2. Do you have any way of using Persistent Spell early? If not, you may be better served with something like Quicken Spell (check out metamagic specialist Sorcerer alternate class feature)
3. If you are willing to switch your alignment to NG, Sacred Exorcist gives you turn undead to fuel divine metamagic so you DO have ways to persist. Alternatively, there is a domain somewhere in dragonlance that is meant for mystics and gives turn undead. If you can take it with Planar Touchstone [Catalogs of Enlightenment] feat, you can learn turn undead that way! Alternatively, Incantatrix prestige class allows you to apply metamagic with a spellcraft check and works with both arcane and divine spells (there is also spelldancer, but that takes a lot of feats to qualify).
4. There are certainly better classes to finish with than pure sorcerer. Incantatrix has already been mentioned. Abjurant Champion gives you a few minor defensive perks. Sandshaper gives you a bunch of spells known and allows you to play with shapesand, etc.

[Extra Anchovies]

You don't actually qualify for MT with 1 level of Favored Soul. How about this:

1: Sorcerer 1; Precocious Apprentice
2: Cleric 1
3: Cleric 2
4: Cleric 3
5: Mystic Theurge 1

And so on. Burning another level by taking Favored Soul instead of Cleric probably isn't worth it, especially since you want Rebuke Undead (which FS doesn't grant).

[sleepyphoenixx]

You don't actually qualify for MT with 1 level of Favored Soul. How about this:

1: Sorcerer 1; Precocious Apprentice
2: Cleric 1
3: Cleric 2
4: Cleric 3
5: Mystic Theurge 1

And so on. Burning another level by taking Favored Soul instead of Cleric probably isn't worth it, especially since you want Rebuke Undead (which FS doesn't grant).

As long as you learn a spell with the cold descriptor for both classes Snowcasting lets you qualify at level 4. Precocious Apprentice is hardly the only early entry trick, even if it's probably the most well known.
There's other methods but Snowcasting has the benefit of not having any prerequisites besides 13 con.

[Rebel7284]

The build is using Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell for early qualifications on BOTH sides. Versatile Spellcaster works for any spontaneous casting. :)

[Extra Anchovies]

The build is using Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell for early qualifications on BOTH sides. Versatile Spellcaster works for any spontaneous casting. :)

Ah, right, missed that. Thanks.

[LoyalPaladin]

1. Make sure you are using this article to pick up the needed Knowledge[Religion] skill for your favored soul: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x
I'm taking Able Learner. So I shouldn't have issues.


2. Do you have any way of using Persistent Spell early? If not, you may be better served with something like Quicken Spell (check out metamagic specialist Sorcerer alternate class feature)
I'm not sure I will be able to do it early. But I'm not worried about Melee coming online till a little bit later. I'll count on my vampireness to get me through early levels.


3. If you are willing to switch your alignment to NG, Sacred Exorcist gives you turn undead to fuel divine metamagic so you DO have ways to persist. Alternatively, there is a domain somewhere in dragonlance that is meant for mystics and gives turn undead.
I'm fairly set on LN, it'll fit better and it matches Kelemvor's alignment. As for the DragonLance domain, my DM wouldn't allow it.


4. There are certainly better classes to finish with than pure sorcerer. Incantatrix has already been mentioned. Abjurant Champion gives you a few minor defensive perks. Sandshaper gives you a bunch of spells known and allows you to play with shapesand, etc.
Oh, sorry. My DM has a house rule where you can only prestige once before 20. It's a rule that complicates my builds but doesn't bother me usually.


You don't actually qualify for MT with 1 level of Favored Soul.

The build is using Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell for early qualifications on BOTH sides. Versatile Spellcaster works for any spontaneous casting. :)
I am going to hope these cancel each other out.


There's other methods but Snowcasting has the benefit of not having any prerequisites besides 13 con.
I'll be undead... sooooo...

[Snowbluff]

What stat mods does your template give? Honestly, you'd be better off with like cleric instead of favored soul. Domains are front heavy, and you can cover more utility spells that way. You don't need high wis to bee a fully effective cleric. Just focus on cha for sorc DCs and just enough wis for cleric casting.

It would net you turning for Divine Metamagic, 2 domains, full list casting, no loss of entry via Versatile Spellcaster (clerics do use spontaneous healing spells, but I suggest the spontaneous domain ACF), and the potential ability to use any spell on the cleric list spontaneously with VSC for being cheesy.

[Rebel7284]

I'm taking Able Learner. So I shouldn't have issues.

Able learner does not change your maximum skill ranks for cross-class skills, just makes them cost one point to buy. The builds sadly doesn't work with Able Learner (Knowledge Devotion taken at level 3 works, but... isn't it easier to just use that stealth fix to favored soul in the article?



I'm not sure I will be able to do it early. But I'm not worried about Melee coming online till a little bit later. I'll count on my vampireness to get me through early levels.

How much later are you hoping for? I mean, with that build, you can persist 1st level spells at level 15, 2nd level spells at level 17 and finally third level spells at 19... that's really late. You don't qualify for Practical Metamagic to lower the cost either. Easy Metamagic from Dragon Magazine would help a bit though...



I'm fairly set on LN, it'll fit better and it matches Kelemvor's alignment. As for the DragonLance domain, my DM wouldn't allow it.

OK




Oh, sorry. My DM has a house rule where you can only prestige once before 20. It's a rule that complicates my builds but doesn't bother me usually.

Ouch! Yeah, that hurts a bit. Taking that into account, would your DM be against extending Mystic Theurge to be 17 levels long? It's not like it has relevant features besides advancing your casting and it makes little sense that as you level, you suddenly find yourself unable to keep learning at the same rate you were able to.



I am going to hope these cancel each other out.

Yup

[LoyalPaladin]

What stat mods does your template give?
Vampire (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampire.shtml) Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)


It would net you turning for Divine Metamagic, 2 domains, full list casting, no loss of entry via Versatile Spellcaster (clerics do use spontaneous healing spells, but I suggest the spontaneous domain ACF), and the potential ability to use any spell on the cleric list spontaneously with VSC for being cheesy.
Hmmm... I'll look into that. It seems like the Favored Soul's spontaneous CHA based casting is better suited. But that said, I am a terrible spellcaster.


Able learner does not change your maximum skill ranks for cross-class skills, just makes them cost one point to buy. The builds sadly doesn't work with Able Learner (Knowledge Devotion taken at level 3 works, but... isn't it easier to just use that stealth fix to favored soul in the article?
Unfortunately, by taking advantage of the system and starting far enough ahead of level 1, our program for making characters doesn't care about cross class ranks once one class has gotten them. Which is a mutually recognized benefit for the players.


How much later are you hoping for? I mean, with that build, you can persist 1st level spells at level 15, 2nd level spells at level 17 and finally third level spells at 19... that's really late. You don't qualify for Practical Metamagic to lower the cost either. Easy Metamagic from Dragon Magazine would help a bit though...
Oh dear... I'll have to read a little more.

I'm unfamiliar with Easy Metamagic.


Ouch! Yeah, that hurts a bit. Taking that into account, would your DM be against extending Mystic Theurge to be 17 levels long? It's not like it has relevant features besides advancing your casting and it makes little sense that as you level, you suddenly find yourself unable to keep learning at the same rate you were able to.
I doubt he would be willing to do that. He is a fairly by the book guy. But he will stray a little for fun aspects. Such as slowly gaining the VL template.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm unfamiliar with Easy Metamagic.

Same effect as practical metamagic but it applies to any spell cast with the selected metamagic feat. The reason why sorcerers are so good with metamagic (and thus generally better for Mailmen than wizards) is because you can stack Practical and Easy Metamagic together.

[LoyalPaladin]

Same effect as practical metamagic but it applies to any spell cast with the selected metamagic feat. The reason why sorcerers are so good with metamagic (and thus generally better for Mailmen than wizards) is because you can stack Practical and Easy Metamagic together.
Hmmm. Perhaps it would be better to rethink things a little. Do Sorcs have an alternative to Divine Power? Or perhaps there is a magic item that grants you a full BAB.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmmm. Perhaps it would be better to rethink things a little. Do Sorcs have an alternative to Divine Power? Or perhaps there is a magic item that grants you a full BAB.

Tenser's Transformation, but it belongs in tenser's trashbin since it blocks your access to casting for the duration and isn't dismissible. Alternately, a Skillful weapon is a +1 equivalent that grants the wielder of the weapon proficiency and upgrades their BAB to medium. Not entirely reliable, though, since the BAB increase is only for attacks with that weapon.

3.5 and PF have a big thing against arcane casters getting full BAB; probably because they have access to Polymorph and a lot of other really nasty buff spells, and also because there are PrCs for that. What do you want the full BAB for? I'm assuming (since you haven't mentioned Duskblade) that you're going for a buff-based gish, in which case I'd recommend Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Medium BAB, d12 equivalent HD, one fewer spell per day of each level, two fewer spells known of your highest level (minimum 1), and one fewer spell known of each other level (minimum 1). Still solid/high T3 depending on spell selection and PrCs, and much less hassle than most gish builds. If I want a caster who also hits people, SBS and Duskblade are my two go-to options.

[LoyalPaladin]

Tenser's Transformation, but it belongs in tenser's trashbin since it blocks your access to casting for the duration and isn't dismissible.
That might be a reliable option though... I plan on mostly running spells and when the time comes, the lord of vampires will draw his blade. Which I will conveniently model after Kelemvor's. +5 Ghost-Touch Holy Undead-Bane Bastard Sword? I think yes.


3.5 and PF have a big thing against arcane casters getting full BAB; probably because they have access to Polymorph and a lot of other really nasty buff spells, and also because there are PrCs for that. What do you want the full BAB for?
It's really unfortunate for people like me. I have nearly zero desire to play casters. But how could I resist the Sorcerer for a vampire lord.

I'm really trying to get full BAB for flavor.


I'm assuming (since you haven't mentioned Duskblade) that you're going for a buff-based gish, in which case I'd recommend Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Medium BAB, d12 equivalent HD, one fewer spell per day of each level, two fewer spells known of your highest level (minimum 1), and one fewer spell known of each other level (minimum 1). Still solid/high T3 depending on spell selection and PrCs, and much less hassle than most gish builds. If I want a caster who also hits people, SBS and Duskblade are my two go-to options.
I'm not really going for a buff-gish. I've got a d12 hit die because of my subtype and I'll have the vampire strength to pull off some decent damage. I was really looking for the extra x to hit and for the iterative attacks.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm not really going for a buff-gish. I've got a d12 hit die because of my subtype and I'll have the vampire strength to pull off some decent damage. I was really looking for the extra x to hit and for the iterative attacks.

Hm. Stalwart Sorcerer might be a good idea, then. It doesn't change your hit die; it just adds 2 to every hit die you have from sorcerer levels.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hm. Stalwart Sorcerer might be a good idea, then. It doesn't change your hit die; it just adds 2 to every hit die you have from sorcerer levels.
Hmmm... I'll look into it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmmm... I'll look into it.

Glad to be of assistance.

[LoyalPaladin]

Glad to be of assistance.
I'm really glad you are "Extra Anchovies" and not "A Normal Amount of Anchovies". You've stuck around for a long time in this thread and helped me out. Haha.

[Snowbluff]

Vampire (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampire.shtml) Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

I doubt he would be willing to do that. He is a fairly by the book guy. But he will stray a little for fun aspects. Such as slowly gaining the VL template.
I was going to say, if you were starting with this, where is your DM so I can make meet with him.

Since it has a wis bonus, take the clerical option. This is NOT a reasonable template by any measure, by the way.

The reason why sorcerers are so good with metamagic (and thus generally better for Mailmen than wizards) is because you can stack Practical and Easy Metamagic together.
Spontaneous application of the metamagic effects and Spellsurge are far more valuable.

Oh, and a heads up. Make sure to take scorching ray. Orbs are great, but they aren't slot efficient unless the target has SR is or spell immune. An empowered scorching ray will do more damage for the same slot cost compared to an orb of fire.

Hail of Stone is pretty neat, too.

[Rebel7284]

If most of your levels are going to be in Mystic Theurge, Stallwart Sorcerer hurts way more than it helps. By the time you go back to sorcerer, the extra HP matter less and less. Overall a horrible choice.

There is skillful weapon enhancement (+2 equivalent I believe) that sets your BAB to 3/4s. Not as good as full BAB, but still a sizable boost. edit: also makes your proficient with the chosen weapon. May be useful with exotic weapons.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Easy_Metamagic

The feat Leadership can also get you full BAB by getting War Chanter as a cohort and then using Inspire Legion.

[LoyalPaladin]

I was going to say, if you were starting with this, where is your DM so I can make meet with him.

Since it has a wis bonus, take the clerical option. This is NOT a reasonable template by any measure, by the way.
I mean, it can't be that overpowered. There comes a point in time where the Vampire Lord Sorcerer falls behind the Grey Elf Wizard right?


If most of your levels are going to be in Mystic Theurge, Stallwart Sorcerer hurts way more than it helps. By the time you go back to sorcerer, the extra HP matter less and less. Overall a horrible choice.
I'm still not super worried about HP. We use an HP chart that dictates d12 classes get 9+Con Mod HP every level.

I'll look into the skillful enchantment.