[3.5] Savage Tide Campaign - SPOILERS

[macdaddy]

I have a party of no less than 8 PCs going through savage tide. We are currently in Kraken's cove. While there have been no PC deaths yet, there have been several very close calls.

I've been adjusting some of the antagonists and combats up a little in order to handle a party of this size. I've been prepping in advance to make things a bit easier down the road.

I'm looking at the final battle in Tides of Dread against Vanthus. I don't really like the way he is constructed (two weapon fighting is meh) and have re-done him as a Sorcadin. This fits with what I have been doing as the party "knew" him as a paladin in an intro adventure I ran prior to starting "There is no Honor". Only now, he has transitioned to a Paladin of Slaughter. :)

The party should all be 10th level. However, they will have had several battles to this point and should have used up about 1/3 of their resources in the defense of the town.

The printed incarnation of Vanthus is CR 14 (11 levels +3 for half fiend. The aristocrat level doesn't count I guess). Since my party consists of 8 CR 10 PC's I have added 1 to his CR by making him 12th level (Paladin 2, Sorcerer 4, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 5, +3 from half fiend = CR 15).

In addition, I had intended to add an additional 4 CR 8 yuan-Ti to go with him (I couldn't think of any appropriate CR 8 demonic servants) with fly spells on them(give a wand of fly to the yuan-ti sorcerer); 2 with bows and 2 with HtH weapons... Or I could have them slither up as Vanthus descends.

I have given him very similar equipment to what is in the module (Lucern Hammer +3, Chain Shirt +3, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Boots of Speed). However, with some choice spell effects he ends up with

AC 38 (Shield, Draconic Might, Haste, etc)
Init + 13 (nerveskitter, dex, improved init)
+21/+21/+16 for 4d6 + 13 (Greater Mighty Wallop increases dice from 2d4 to 4d6)
Fort: +22, Ref: +17, Wil: +19
SR: 22

Under the effects of: Draconic Might(12 minutes), Shield(24 rounds, assume 18 left when the fight starts), Haste(10 rounds max), Greater Mighty Wallop(12 hours), Heart of Air(12 hours), Heart of Stone(12 hours), Displacement(12 rounds, assume 6 left when the fight starts) and mirror image(12 minutes).

Plus he has the Wings of Cover spell, which kills an attack as an immediate action, but prevents him from using Wraithstrike, which requires a swift action.

1st round: Evards Black tentacles on those on the ground, activate haste
2nd round: Move up and whack, or cast Scorching Ray, or use blasphemey, or use unholy blight
3rd Round: Full Attack or repeat

One strike will easily do:
4d6 + 13 + 20 + 5d4(arcane strike) == 59.5 damage

If he ever gets off a full attack action, whatever he hits is DEAD.

My party currently consists of
1. Human Cloistered Cleric who will transition into Radiant Servant of Pelor
2. Human Warlock
3. Human Druid
4. Halfling going Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower/Whisper Knife
5. Goliath Barbarian/Fighter going into Totemic Demon Slayer
6. Dwarf Barbarian/Fighter going into Champion of Gwynharwyf
7. Human Duskblade (using reach weapon)
8. Human Warmage/Divine Oracle/Rainbow Servant

No dedicated arcanist!

The warmage should be able to cast Airwalk at 10th level. That will help get some into the air, and the warlock will be able to zap away for 7d6 with a chausible, if he gets through the spell resistance (50/50), images, and displacement. All of that depends on them NOT being disabled via grappling tentacles though... which is unlikely (I doubt the druid or cleric will memorize freedom of movement).

Other than that, I don't see how the others will be able to handle someone flying above them them, casting down, and occasionally walloping them with a reach weapon. It would only take ~2 hits to kill any of the fighters, a full attack would be instant death, 1 hit would easily knock off half their health; and it would be nearly impossible for the fighters to hit back.

I'm worried that perhaps I have over optimized this and made him an easy TPK. A 10th level fighter will have +10 BaB, +1 weapon, ~+6 from str is +17 to hit. Against a 38 AC, he would need a 20! Then throw in displacement and mirror image and its probably serious OVERKILL.

How much should I cut back on this? any ideas/suggestions?

[Drork]

I dont really see why you need to consider if this will kill the party you have stated they have no way to deal with it, so it is optimised against their weaknesses. The CR is 16-17 against level 10s you are going to mop the floor with them. Its not going to be a battle it is going to be a slaughter. Monsters and PCs are not the same do not treat them as the same this is why the designer picked a meh set of abilities from the PC side of things.

The problem I think you are looking at is the different between increasing CR from power vs increasing CR from numbers. You are trying to make up for the huge number of PC actions by increasing the NPCs power level. It is much easier to create a balanced encounter by increasing the numbers of things on the battle field. You also have to consider why the designer went with 2 weapon fighting. It is a Meh option however if you have a few BaB higher your average monster what you are actually doing is increasing the number of attacks.

If you want a BBEG to last longer use temporary HP mirror image and displacement. If you plan for the NPC to die use increased con magic for more HP.

That being said no one in the party has dispel magic? With a dispel magic the flying guys are falling out of the sky, half the defenses on the BBEG can be neutered. However I think your probably still going to kill the PCs because of my comments above.

Its not hard for a DM to kill players you dont really have to try and they will find a way to die on their own more often than not.

[macdaddy]

The base encounter is CR 14 against 4 CR 10s.
I have 8 CR 10s, so they have a CR of 12.

To maintain the same +4 encounter level, which is classified as very difficult, I should have an overall CR of 16.

I had intended to make the antagonist a CR 15 and add 4 CR 8's. But that 1 extra level, giving him a 5th level spell, makes him so powerful, that he could wipe the floor by himself (Draconic might alone gives him +2 to hit, +3 dmg, +3 AC, bonus spells and saving throws due to the CHR bump; plus arcane strike does an extra +1 to hit and +d4 to dmg).

If I keep my main antagonist as a CR 14, then add 6 CR 8's, I get a CR of 16.

I think the ultimate problem is that he will have time to "pre" buff multiple spells before encountering the party. However, the party should also have the same thing going on their end, with the exception of round/level buffs. I will "un-optimize" his spell selection a little, and give him either mirror image OR displacement, but not both. I will also "spread" out his wealth a little bit so that his AC is hit-able.

Or I keep the dual wielding flavor and redo him as a swashbuckler/fighter/dervish and let him dual wield scimitars of doom. Might be fun to have him weave in, whack people, then end up 30-40 feet away

[Drork]

I think you are miss understanding how the CR system works here.

CR talk /spoiler]
Characters have a CR for when you make them not for when the party is them. A CR of equal to the average party level "should" take 1 quarter of the party resources. That does not give them as a party a CR of their level their actually ER of the party of 4 level 10s is 14 (4 CR 10 = 2 ER 12s = 1 ER 14) and 8 level 10s is 16. This means that 4 level 16 people should be depleted about one quarter of their resources in dealing with the threat they pose. Also means that a EL 16 is likely going to be close to fifty fifty on the odds of survival.
You also made notes that yes the CR is higher than the party but it was not optimized for killing hence the two weapon fighting. Which no longer applies changing that up might be enough to see one of the party go down because now the foes damage output which was low with a high number of attacks is now flipped around.
If you would be much better off add more of the lower CRs or bringing those up than pushing the top up dog in the fight.
To exaggerate the example pick any dragon CR 20 and then compare it to 20 level 2 characters who would you expect to win. You want to keep each creatures CRs close to the party if you want a "fair fight". You have pushed the boss CR 5 levels above the Party that alone probably makes the fight impossible for them to achieve, its like giving a giant plate mail armor (a mistake I made once) it doesnt make the encounter more challenging it makes it so they can not touch their opponent.
[/spoiler]

I think you would be much better off dropping his damage output but maintaining a high defense. The main reason for that is the problem with large groups is they get so many actions per BBEGs. High defense lets you maintain BBEG for longer in the fight. Letting him last longer in the fight means he gets more attacks which means you should drop the damage he does so he doesnt down guys near the start making the extra defense impossible for the reduced actions from there. Dont forget mirror images get displacement chance to avoid getting popped this can up his survival time though the roof.
All this being said I did think of a way the players could down the foe using assisting actions but no PC ever actually performs them because it basically means you will never be in the spotlight.
Increasing the lower CRs is a much better way to increase the challenge without over powering the situation.