Reactions vs Interrupts

[Kane0]

Following on from a couple of other recent threads, the idea of some reactions being interrupts instead of following their trigger came up.

I'm considering making a bit of a beta houserule on interrupts, and was wondering what people would classify as which. For example the shield spell i definitely lean towards being an interrupt as it modifies your AC after an attack is made, but before the hit is confirmed and damage dealt.

What would people classify things like deflect arrows, readied actions, reaction-giving feats and other such things?

For reference, the houserule itself will be simple. Where an ability would say 'as a reaction' it would now say 'as an interrupt', or just append a [Interrupt] on the end of the reaction to specify. You still only get one as per normal, choosing between what kind of reaction you would like to make.


Gameplay
Ready Action (pg 193): Ask your DM. Defaults to reaction, but under the proper trigger conditions could be an interrupt with DM approval.
Opportunity Attack (pg 195): Interrupt (as they leave your reach, not after)
Mounting & Dismounting (pg 198): Reaction

Race / Class Abilities
Retaliation (pg 50): Reaction
Cutting Words (pg 54): Interrupt
Combat Inspiration (pg 55): Interrupt
Warding Flare (pg 61): Interrupt
Dampen Elements (pg 62): Interrupt
Wrath of the Storm (pg 62): Reaction
War God's Blessing (pg 63): Interrupt
Protection Fighting Style (pg 72, 84, ): Interrupt
Commander's Strike (pg 74): Reaction
Maneuvering Attack (pg 74): Reaction
Parry (pg 74): Interrupt
Riposte (pg 74): Reaction
Deflect Missiles (pg 78): Interrupt
Slow Fall (pg 78): Interrupt
Opportunist (pg 80): Reaction
Relentless Avenger (pg 88): As Opportunity attack
Soul of Venegeance (pg 88): Reaction
Giant Killer (Hunter's Prey, pg 93): Reaction
Stand Against the Tide (Superior Hunter's Defense, pg 93): Reaction
Uncanny Dodge (Superior Hunter's Defense, pg 93): Interrupt
Uncanny Dodge (pg 96): Interrupt
Spell Thief (pg 98): Reaction
Bend Luck (pg 103): Interrupt
Misty Escape (pg 109): Reaction
Beguiling Defenses (pg 109): Interrupt
Entropic Ward (pg 110): Interrupt
Projected Ward (pg 115): Interrupt
Instinctive Charm (pg 117): Interrupt
Illusory Self (pg 118): Interrupt

Stone's Endurance (EE pg 11): Interrupt

Feats
Defensive Duelist (pg 165): Interrupt
Mage Slayer (pg 167): Reaction
Sentinel (pg 169/170): Reaction
Shield Master (pg 170): Interrupt
War Caster (pg 170): As opportunity attack

Spells
Counterspell (pg 228): Interrupt
Dissonant Whispers (pg 231): Reaction
Dominate Beast/Monster/Person (pg 232): As the reaction you are taking
Feather Fall (pg 235): Interrupt
Find Familiar (pg 236): Reaction
Hellish Rebuke (pg 250): Reaction
Power Word Heal (pg 266): Reaction
Shield (pg 275): Interrupt
Wall of Stone (pg 286): Interrupt

Absorb Elements (EE pg 15): Interrupt
Primordial Ward (EE pg 21): Interrupt

[ThermalSlapShot]

Following on from a couple of other recent threads, the idea of some reactions being interrupts instead of following their trigger came up.

I'm considering making a bit of a beta houserule on interrupts, and was wondering what people would classify as which. For example the shield spell i definitely lean towards being an interrupt as it modifies your AC after an attack is made, but before the hit is confirmed and damage dealt.

What would people classify things like deflect arrows, readied actions, reaction-giving feats and other such things?

For reference, the houserule itself will be simple. Where an ability would say 'as a reaction' it would now say 'as an interrupt', or just append a [Interrupt] on the end of the reaction to specify. You still only get one as per normal, choosing between what kind of reaction you would like to make.

Do it, it would make everything clear and concise. No more of this "sometimes it happens during, between, or after the trigger" bull crap.

It won't get as crazy as 4e since most people don't have a lot of reaction abilities or more than one reaction per round.

[HerbertWest]

I think that if you're going to go this route, you should make sure that you specify which effects are interrupts, and which are not interrupts. I haven't completely devoured all of the PHB, but I don't believe every reaction ability is intended to be an Interrupt.

[Easy_Lee]

There's some language in the PHB we can use to distinguish. See Hellish Rebuke vs. shield:

Helish Rebuke: "in response to being damaged"
Shield: "when you are hit"

Similarly, the sentinel and mage slayer feats both use the word when. Uncanny dodge also uses "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack," and it's meant to reduce the damage of the attack. Deflect missiles also uses "when you are hit," and it's meant to deflect the attack. Feather fall is when you fall, counterspell is when you see a creature casting a spell.

So it seems that the word "when" could be used to indicate an interrupting action, while the lack of that word could be used for everything else. Seems simple, though I did not find many cases of reactions not using the word when, so that may be the wrong way to go about it.

It might be best to just do what makes sense to you at the time.

[Kane0]

Right, so I'm adding a list of reactions I found in the PhB, along with some draft decisions on reaction or interrupt. Please let me know if i missed any and what you think!

[Easy_Lee]

To save some time, here's a list of reaction spells:
Absorb Elements 1st Abjuration 1 reaction S ee 15
Feather Fall 1st Transmutation 1 reaction VM phb 239
Hellish Rebuke 1st Evocation 1 reaction VS phb 250
Shield 1st Abjuration 1 reaction VS phb 275
Counterspell 3rd Abjuration 1 reaction S phb 228

Pulled from: http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/spells/

[calebrus]

"When <this happens>" is not used to determine timing of the reaction, it's used to determine the trigger.
"When <this happens> you can use your reaction <for this>." If timing is specified, it is noted later in the description.


That's not timing, that's the trigger.
I'll offer three examples of abilities with both trigger and timing, and then we'll compare to Mage Slayer.

Shield: Casting time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell
An invisible barrier of magical force appears and protects you. Until the start of your next turn, you have a
+5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack, and you take no damage from magic missile.
Trigger: you are hit by an attack or magic missile spell
Timing: Including against that attack, which means before the attack roll is resolved
If <this situation> occurs, you can do <this>, and it happens <at this point>.

Defensive Duelist: When you are wielding a finesse weapon with which you are proficient and another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
Trigger: you get hit with a melee attack
Timing: for that attack, which means before the attack roll is resolved
If <this situation> occurs, you can do <this>, and it happens <at this point>.

Counterspell: Casting time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature withing 60 feet of you casting a spell
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
Trigger: you see a spell being cast
Timing: you interrupt the casting
If <this situation> occurs, you can do <this>, and it happens <at this point>.

Mage Slayer: When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.
Trigger: a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell
Timing: None specified, so it happens after the spell is completed, just like page 252 of the DMG states.
If <this situation> occurs, you can do <this>, with no mention of when it happens.

As per DMG pg 252: Reactions: If a reaction has no timing specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes, as in the Ready action.

AT BEST it is perfectly clear that no timing is specified.
AT WORST the timing is unclear, and even then, if we are to consider it unclear, it is clearly stated that it happens after the trigger finishes.
Either way, it happens after.
This has been confirmed.
Anything else is an house rule. Period.

"When <this happens>" does not signify an interrupt.
If it did, we wouldn't have designer confirmation that Mage Slayer happens after the spell is cast.
But we do have designer confirmation that Mage Slayer happens after the spell is cast.
And Mage Slayer uses the word "when." So obviously that isn't timing, it's trigger.

"When <this happens> (*trigger), you may use your reaction <for this> (*action), {and either no mention of when it happens is included, in which case it happens after the trigger, or it tells you when the reaction happens, in which case it will signify an exact placement - before something, or after something}.

[Kane0]

So are you saying Mage Slayer should be a reaction? Cause that's what I wrote.

Oop, missed the elemental evil stuff. Better add that.

[calebrus]

So are you saying Mage Slayer should be a reaction?

Oop, missed the elemental evil stuff. Better add that.

No, I'm saying that Mage Slayer *is* a reaction. And that was more aimed at post #4 above.
Many people want to house rule that it becomes an interrupt, and they want to argue that the RAW is unclear about when the reaction occurs. It isn't.
Just like the word "when" doesn't signify an interrupt.
They're reading what they want to read instead of what it actually says.

If you want to house rule things into interrupts, feel free, but the rules make it very clear which reactions do and which reactions do not interrupt their trigger.
And if there is ever any doubt, then it does not interrupt, as per DMG page 252.
So even if there might be confusion, the default is No.

[Safety Sword]

I feel like this thread is a bit of a waste because there are very very few interrupts in 5E.

In fact, Shield is the only true interrupt I can think of...

The other abilities are reactions and there isn't really any need to change that.

Seriously, all you do is muddy the water if you were to say, for example, deflect arrows is a reaction but parry is an interrupt.

They both work fine as is.

Mage Slayer is quite clear on how it should work. People WANT it to be different, but I don't think the full consideration has been given to the fundamental change in the balance that will occur if casters can never get a spell off just because someone took a feat. The feat already gives you some great stuff and allows you to do something you normally wouldn't.

Making it also interrupt casting is over the top.

[Kane0]

Well I went through and looked at all the reaction abilities I found. Have a look at the spoiler in the OP, tell me what you think.

I found quite a few interrupts, which was suprising.

[Xetheral]

I feel like this thread is a bit of a waste because there are very very few interrupts in 5E.

In fact, Shield is the only true interrupt I can think of...

Parry, Deflect Arrows, Shield Master, Projected Ward, and Uncanny Dodge all have to be interrupts, or else you (or your target, in the case of Projected Ward) could die/fall unconscious before you get a chance to reduce the incoming damage.

Defensive Duelist and Protection Fighting Style have to be interrupts or, like Shield, they simply wouldn't work.

Cutting Words is all-but-explicitly called out as an interrupt.

Also, if I understand the designer tweets correctly, an OA is an interrupt, except when triggered by Polearm Master, and then it's a reaction. (Because that isn't complicated at all.)

I actually think interrupts might outnumber reactions....

[Kane0]

By my count the draft has 29 interrupts to 22 reactions.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well I went through and looked at all the reaction abilities I found. Have a look at the spoiler in the OP, tell me what you think.

I found quite a few interrupts, which was suprising.

Readied actions are a reaction. You list it as possibly DM call. That applies to everything. If the DM wants to change anything, it's his prerogative, but readied actions are reactions.
I definitely wouldn't consider Feather Fall as an interrupt. You can't stop the fall, you can only react to the fact that you fell.
I honestly have no clue what part of Wall of Stone you think is an interrupt. No clue whatsoever.

You list many things as interrupts which, while technically correct, must be used/decided upon before a result is known. I think it worth noting these, which include:
Cutting Words (before knowing result)
Combat Inspiration (before knowing result)
Warding Flare (before it hits or misses, technically means before it even rolls)
War God's Blessing (before knowing result)
Bend Luck (before knowing result)
Instinctive Charm (before knowing result)

And there are a few that I'm not sure I would qualify as interrupts like you did, but an argument can be made either way. I can see why you would consider them interrupts, but really I wouldn't consider them as such, as you didn't stop anything from happening, you just reduced its effect.
It's kind of like a Dexterity save for half. You didn't interrupt it, you reacted to it and reduced its effectiveness. At least that's how I see it, but like I said, I can see an argument for both sides.
Such examples include Parry, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Uncanny Dodge,
I'm not sure if I'd consider Shield Master in this weird psuedo-interrupt category or simply as an interrupt.

[Safety Sword]

And there are a few that I'm not sure I would qualify as interrupts like you did, but an argument can be made either way. I can see why you would consider them interrupts, but really I wouldn't consider them as such, as you didn't stop anything from happening, you just reduced its effect.


This is where I was going too. You're not interrupting the other person's ability, simply changing the magnitude of the effect. To my way of thinking, that's not an interrupt ability.

Anyhow, now that that's cleared up, I actually feel better about not doing any of this in my games. I think that using your reaction to use parry or deflect arrows is exactly how it should work. It's actually quite an elegant implementation for those abilities.

[Xetheral]

And there are a few that I'm not sure I would qualify as interrupts like you did, but an argument can be made either way. I can see why you would consider them interrupts, but really I wouldn't consider them as such, as you didn't stop anything from happening, you just reduced its effect.
It's kind of like a Dexterity save for half. You didn't interrupt it, you reacted to it and reduced its effectiveness. At least that's how I see it, but like I said, I can see an argument for both sides.
Such examples include Parry, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Uncanny Dodge,
I'm not sure if I'd consider Shield Master in this weird psuedo-interrupt category or simply as an interrupt.

I'm assuming that even if you decided to classify e.g. Parry as a reaction, you'd let it work before damage is applied? Effectively, you'd treat dealing damage and applying damage as two separate things?

It seems somewhat silly to not allow Parry on the grounds that the character was knocked unconscious by the attack she was going to parry.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm assuming that even if you decided to classify e.g. Parry as a reaction, you'd let it work before damage is applied? Effectively, you'd treat dealing damage and applying damage as two separate things?

It seems somewhat silly to not allow Parry on the grounds that the character was knocked unconscious by the attack she was going to parry.

That's why I can see an argument for calling it an interrupt.
But to my mind, an interrupt stops something or changes it in some way.
Parry and the like do neither, they just reduced the magnitude, as SS eloquently said.
But like I said, I can see it both ways, and it basically boils down to no real difference in the long and short of it.

[Kane0]

Guess i'd better go through my reasoning with these while we're here:

Gameplay
Ready Action (pg 193): Reaction
Happens after your trigger. You can of course make your trigger sneaky, clever or legalese to get around that, but thats dependant on your lactose tolerance.

Opportunity Attack (pg 195): Interrupt
Happens after movement but before they are beyond your reach

Mounting & Dismounting (pg 198): Reaction
Happens after mount falls prone

Retaliation (pg 50): Reaction
Happens after you take the damage

Cutting Words (pg 54): Interrupt
happens when ally makes roll but before results are announced

Combat Inspiration (pg 55): Interrupt
Happens after the attack but before results are announced

Warding Flare (pg 61): Interrupt
Happens after attack but before results

Dampen Elements (pg 62): Interrupt
Happens after attack but before damage

Wrath of the Storm (pg 62): Reaction
Happens after you are hit

War God's Blessing (pg 63): Interrupt
Happens after roll but before results are announced

Protection Fighting Style (pg 72, 84, ): Interrupt
happens after attack but before results

Commander's Strike (pg 74): Reaction
Happens after you spend your bonus action

Maneuvering Attack (pg 74): Reaction
Happens after your attack

Parry (pg 74): Interrupt
Happens after you are hit but before you take damage

Riposte (pg 74): Reaction
Happens after you are missed

Deflect Missiles (pg 78): Interrupt
Happens after you are hit but before you take damage

Slow Fall (pg 78): Interrupt
Happens after you fall but before you take damage

Opportunist (pg 80): Reaction
Happens after creature is hit

Relentless Avenger (pg 88): As Opportunity attack
Adds movement to your opportunity attack

Soul of Venegeance (pg 88): Reaction
Happens after subject makes an attack

Giant Killer (Hunter's Prey, pg 93): Reaction
Happens after the attack (this one even specifies, oddly enough)

Stand Against the Tide (Superior Hunter's Defense, pg 93): Reaction
Happens after the miss

Uncanny Dodge (Superior Hunter's Defense, pg 93): Interrupt
Uncanny Dodge (pg 96): Interrupt
After you are hit but before you take damage

Spell Thief (pg 98): Reaction
After spell is cast (this one specifies too)

Bend Luck (pg 103): Interrupt
Happens after roll is made but before results are determined

Misty Escape (pg 109): Reaction
After you take damage

Beguiling Defenses (pg 109): Reaction
After the attempt is made

Entropic Ward (pg 110): Interrupt
Happens after attack is initiated but before results are determined

Projected Ward (pg 115): Interrupt
Absorbs damage before creature takes it

Instinctive Charm (pg 117): Interrupt
Happens after attack is made but before results are determined

Illusory Self (pg 118): Interrupt
Happens after you are targeted with an attack but before results are determined

Stone's Endurance (EE pg 11): Interrupt
Happens after you are injured but before you take damage

Feats
Defensive Duelist (pg 165): Interrupt
After attack is rolled but before results are determined

Mage Slayer (pg 167): Reaction
Happens after spell is cast, trigger uses past tense

Sentinel (pg 169/170): Reaction
Happens after attack is made

Shield Master (pg 170): Interrupt
Happens after you pass the save but before you take damage

War Caster (pg 170): As opportunity attack
Spell replaces opportunity attack

Spells
Counterspell (pg 228): Interrupt
As spell is being cast, trigger uses present tense

Dissonant Whispers (pg 231): Reaction
Happens after target is affected by spell

Dominate Beast/Monster/Person (pg 232): As the reaction you are taking
Use your reaction and theirs to perform a reaction as described elsewhere here

Feather Fall (pg 235): Interrupt
Happens when you begin to fall but before you take damage

Find Familiar (pg 236): Reaction
Happens after you cast the spell

Hellish Rebuke (pg 250): Reaction
Happens after you take damage

Power Word Heal (pg 266): Reaction
Happens after effects of spell

Shield (pg 275): Interrupt
Happens after attack happens, but before it is confirmed as a hit

Wall of Stone (pg 286): Interrupt
Happens after spell is cast, but before subject is enclosed

Absorb Elements (EE pg 15): Interrupt
Happens after you get affected, but before you take damage

Primordial Ward (EE pg 21): Interrupt
Happens after you get affected, but before you take damage

[jkat718]

Perhaps the "pseudo-reaction" should be it's own category? So you have the tags [Intercept], which happens before, and [Interrupt], which happens after roll, but before result.

[Easy_Lee]

We may be able to avoid all confusion by saying simply that reactions are simultaneous with the trigger. I know that's not the RAW solution, but it does make things easier.

Begins Casting - Counterspell
Finishes Casting - Mage slayer
Makes attack - Deflect missiles, Sentinel, Parry, etc.
Moves a space - Opportunity attack if it qualifies

Having everything be simultaneous removes the need to answer the question of who shot first. Everyone gets their actions and reactions every time.

[Kane0]

Perhaps the "pseudo-reaction" should be it's own category? So you have the tags [Intercept], which happens before, and [Interrupt], which happens after roll, but before result.

I'd like to keep it as simple as possible. An interrupt is anything that makes you say to the DM "But wait! I have/use ABC" as opposed to a reaction being "Then I get to do XYZ". Usually while he's talking about all the nasty things that are happening or soon going to happen to you.

You are Interrupting the action being made and the DM all in the one reaction, as opposed to just following on.

[TheOOB]

Interrupts are not a thing, and reaction doesn't mean the thing OP seems to think it means. There are no specific timing rules for a reaction. You're just only allowed to take one a turn. The timing is specific to the ability being used. Shield IIRL you use after you are hit but before damage, for example. Since it's always a case-by-case basis making general rules would just make things more confusing.

[LordVonDerp]

So are you saying Mage Slayer should be a reaction? Cause that's what I wrote.

Oop, missed the elemental evil stuff. Better add that.


But then, from an in-universe perspective it makes more sense as an interrupt.
As a reaction you run into the following:
Mage casts a spell
Fighter notices mage casting a spell
Fighter politely waits 2-4 seconds
Mage finishes casting spell.
Fighter whacks mage over the head.


As for strict RAW its a toss up really. By strict RAW the attack itself is not a reaction, but noticing and understanding that will likely require several readings.

[DivisibleByZero]

As for strict RAW its a toss up really. By strict RAW the attack itself is not a reaction, but noticing and understanding that will likely require several readings.

First, what you just said makes zero sense. By strict RAW it is both a toss up, and not a reaction.
Nonsense.
Secondly, there is already a huge thread devoted to this exact topic, so please go explain it there if you want to explain it.

[ProphetSword]

But then, from an in-universe perspective it makes more sense as an interrupt.
As a reaction you run into the following:
Mage casts a spell
Fighter notices mage casting a spell
Fighter politely waits 2-4 seconds
Mage finishes casting spell.
Fighter whacks mage over the head.


You're wrong. Combat happens simultaneously. The fighter isn't standing around for six seconds waiting for the mage to finish and doing nothing. Likely, he did something during that six seconds. So, his reaction to the casting of the spell happens as part of the overall round in a short span of time, during which he did something else that used the rest of that time.

Example:
Fighter moved 30', attacked a goblin and used a bonus action to hit him with a shield. He then noticed the goblin mage was casting and as fire leapt from the creature's hand and struck his nearby ally, he took a swipe at the enemy spellcaster for daring to injure his friend.

Despite each of the turns taking a long time, the entire round (from the beginning of your turn until the beginning of your next turn) is span of six seconds, regardless of how many other creatures have a turn in between.

[LordVonDerp]

First, what you just said makes zero sense. By strict RAW it is both a toss up, and not a reaction.
Nonsense.
Secondly, there is already a huge thread devoted to this exact topic, so please go explain it there if you want to explain it.

Evidently its not much of a toss up, merely dependent on precise reading.

[LordVonDerp]

You're wrong. Combat happens simultaneously. The fighter isn't standing around for six seconds waiting for the mage to finish and doing nothing. Likely, he did something during that six seconds. So, his reaction to the casting of the spell happens as part of the overall round in a short span of time, during which he did something else that used the rest of that time.

Example:
Fighter moved 30', attacked a goblin and used a bonus action to hit him with a shield. He then noticed the goblin mage was casting and as fire leapt from the creature's hand and struck his nearby ally, he took a swipe at the enemy spellcaster for daring to injure his friend.

Despite each of the turns taking a long time, the entire round (from the beginning of your turn until the beginning of your next turn) is span of six seconds, regardless of how many other creatures have a turn in between.

Your entire post presumes that the fighter did not start the round next to tHe mage and does nothing to address what happens of he was. Furthermore, your proposition would require the tracking of far too many variables to be conductive to play and still fails to account for the fact that there are still six seconds between the end of the fighters first turn and the end of his next turn, during which the mage will attempt to cast a spell.
Anyway the moment you start trying to break down turn ordering everything else falls apart

[Easy_Lee]

Since we're talking about mage slayer, how do you guys imagine casting a spell looks? What does the caster do?

[DivisibleByZero]

Evidently its not much of a toss up, merely dependent on precise reading.

In reality, it's merely dependent on reading the words that were written and not the words you prefer they had written.
It's a reaction.
If you disagree, feel free to join the conversation in the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414913-Shocking-Grasp-v-Mage-Slayer) that's basically devoted to this exact topic.

[Safety Sword]

In reality, it's merely dependent on reading the words that were written and not the words you prefer they had written.
It's a reaction.
If you disagree, feel free to join the conversation in the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414913-Shocking-Grasp-v-Mage-Slayer) that's basically devoted to this exact topic.

Convenient misreading of the rules is a feature since D&D 3.0.