black guard

[Rentirith]

Im trying to help a friend make a character in an all evil campaign, and we need a healer/tank. I know the cleric would be best for this, but i saw the Paladin of Tyranny and thought this would work also. Now my question is this: if my friend became a blackguard after level 10, would he lose all of his paladin bonuses? I ask this because of the whole fallen paladins thing for black guards. If the paladin never did something to lose those features however, what would be that effect with the blackguard?

ive tried wrapping my head around it, but all the 'losing this' and 'gaining that' is confusing me.

[mabriss lethe]

Personally, I wouldn't push that option in a game. Paladin of Tyranny is basically the base class version of Blackguard. By Raw though, it looks like it would work just like a normal paladin, except you don't have to fall before becoming a blackguard. The first 10 levels of PoT would give a blackguard bonus abilities while the last 10 could be traded in for blackguard levels on a 1 for 1 basis.

[Ellowryn]

The short answer to all of this is that the Blackguard PrC was made to interact with the basic LG Paladin from the PHB, and therefore all of the bonuses and such gained from having Paladin levels only works with the original version.

That being said, no he would not lose his Paladin of Tyranny class features (to be fair when they made this ACF it looks like they took a lot of the abilities of the Blackguard and gave them to the base Paladin class) just for taking the PrC. He does take the multiclass penalty from being a paladin, not being able to advance his paladin levels afterward, but otherwise it functions the same.

As for the gaining/losing feature it boils down to this: taking levels in Blackguard REQUIRE you to be evil, and therefore have become a fallen paladin. When you become a fallen paladin you lose everything from the class but HD, BaB, Saves, and Weapon/Armor proficiencies, basically making you a fighter without any bonus feats. Now, when you take your first level of Blackguard you then add up the total levels of paladin you had before, and then consult the table and gaining the appropriate bonuses. If, however, you had more the 10 levels of paladin before entering the PrC, you may then trade out class levels of paladin for blackguard. The given example is a 12th level paladin who traded in 10 paladin levels for 10 levels in blackguard, so he calculates his character level as if he was simply a 2nd level paladin and a 10th level blackguard. Note however that this trade can only be made when the first level of blackguard is taken, you cannot later trade in more paladin levels for more blackguard.

[PaucaTerrorem]

AFB right now, but what would the benefits of going Blackguard be?

[Rentirith]

it is in the dungeon masters guide, but basically you become more sneak attack-y, you get a pet zombie, and you can smite more. I think i am making it sound worse than it actually is, but that is the essence of trading in class levels.

So basically, it is more beneficial to stay as a bad paladin than to go black guard, right?

last thing: the paladin of tyranny has a power deadly touch that says it inflicts pain blah blah blah, but also functions like a regular paladins lay on hands ability. does this mean that the tyranny one can heal with it to, or that it just uses the same mechanics?

[Yogibear41]

The Paladin of Tyranny does not lose any class features as long as he stays LE. The blackguard does not get bonuses because you have Paladin of Tyranny levels not normal Paladin levels. The Paladin of Tyranny's touch attack uses negative energy, therefor it can be used to heal undead or a person with the tomb tainted soul feat. A normal living character will be damaged by it.

The Benefits are that divine grace and dark blessing stack so you get double your Charisma to all your saves, and the blackguard gets sneak attack. The Cons are you have a lower ability to rebuke undead (2 levels lowers) and you don't improved your Deadly Touch ability.

The Blackguards mount and Paladins Mount sort of balance each other out so losing the ability to progress the Paladin one isn't that bad. The Blackguard also gains similar spells to the paladin, but ends up with less spells per day, and loses a few of the good spells from the paladin of tyranny list (greater magic weapon and unholy sword are probably the best 2), but gains some good spells it didn't otherwise have access too(depends on which books you can use). If you end up going into epic levels the Blackguard is better in the spell-casting department in the long run because its caster level increases by 1 every level instead of by 1 every 2 levels like the paladins.

[Extra Anchovies]

Shadowbane Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer) makes the Paladin -> Blackguard transition actually kind of appealing, but I forget what the optimal level progression is. Maybe Rogue 1/Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1, converted to Rogue 1/Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 4/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1, then finishing up SI and Blackguard?

[Yogibear41]

Shadowbane Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer) makes the Paladin -> Blackguard transition actually kind of appealing, but I forget what the optimal level progression is. Maybe Rogue 1/Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1, converted to Rogue 1/Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 4/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1, then finishing up SI and Blackguard?

You still have to have 11 or more levels of Paladin/Inquisitor before you can trade them. So you would have to be something like Rogue 1/Paladin 5/Shadow Bane Inquisitor 6 then become rogue 1/Blackguard X/Shadow Bane Inquisitor Y, where Y is a maximum of 6 and X+Y=11.

[Rentirith]

sorry for being so slow about this, but if im understanding you correctly, then the paladin of tyranny would keep all of his stuff once converted to blackguard, but cant advance any more in that class for.... reasons. The character would then have 10 levels of evil paladin stuff AND 10 levels of Blackguard AND the other side bonuses. Then the player could take other class levels so long as they arent blackguard or paladin.

EDIT: and with switched spells from paladin to black guard.

[DrMotives]

sorry for being so slow about this, but if im understanding you correctly, then the paladin of tyranny would keep all of his stuff once converted to blackguard, but cant advance any more in that class for.... reasons. The character would then have 10 levels of evil paladin stuff AND 10 levels of Blackguard AND the other side bonuses. Then the player could take other class levels so long as they arent blackguard or paladin.

EDIT: and with switched spells from paladin to black guard.

Pretty much. Also, your spellcasting would be all the casting of a L10 Tyranny Paladin and the seperate blackguard 10 casting, so lots of lower power magic, and your caster level would be 5 for paladin spells 10 for BG spells. Not very impressive.

Also, this combination violates RAI but not RAW. As UA states that the prestige paladin / ranger / bard are supposed to be used in campaigns to completely replace the non-PrC version, the Paladins of Tyranny & Slaughter are meant to be base classes to use if you have no blackguards. It was always a glaring inconsistency before UA came out that paladins were a base class but the evil counterparts a PrC, either they should all be PrCs or all base classes, UA simply gives ways to put out either solution.

[Yogibear41]

Paladins of Tyranny and Blackguards can serve the same purpose or you can have distinctions between them. For example paladins serve a deity or cause, while blackguards derive their powers from demons/devils. It is possible for them to represent similar yet different roles. It all depends on the campaign setting.

[Rentirith]

thanks guys! the player wouldnt really need to be a full-caster, i just want to make sure he can cast cure stuff for us. after level 11, what would he probably want to take? ive seen lots of stuff about a hexblade being good to go with, but i feel like there are better options than that for helping a melee healer guy.

[atemu1234]

thanks guys! the player wouldnt really need to be a full-caster, i just want to make sure he can cast cure stuff for us. after level 11, what would he probably want to take? ive seen lots of stuff about a hexblade being good to go with, but i feel like there are better options than that for helping a melee healer guy.

If you plan on going blackguard, stick with PoT levels. However, if you want to make a healer character, an Evil Cleric with the Healing domain works. Since nonalignment domains do not require an alignment, it works. He still has to prepare domain spells, however.

Maybe a mystic?