Sand Blaster MM3

[StelioKantos]

Was just curious on what kind of fun things you could do with a sand blaster from MM3 in the sand giant entry? Seems like you could add some enhancements for AoE debuffing perhaps?

[mabriss lethe]

It's something I've been toying with recently (I just rediscovered it about a week ago.) Here's some general advice about using the sandblaster.

1. Strangely enough, it doesn't matter if you're proficient with it or not. Yes, it's an exotic weapon, but since you don't make attack rolls with it, the -4 penalty for nonproficiency is pretty pointless. Also, penalties for using an inappropriately sized version don't impact your rolls. (though you're still bound by the weapon size rules that render a weapon unusable if it's X or more categories bigger than you are.. I think it's 2.)

2. The penalties that the sand blaster imposes pretty much effect every sort of creature. The penalties are untyped and it's not a fort save, so technically creatures like undead or constructs still suffer if they fail their reflex check, even if it doesn't make any sense. The damage it deals is also untyped which can be good and bad.

3. Unless you decide to carry a lot of them, treat it as a 1/encounter ability. That full-round action to reload will really bog you down.

4. Poison is probably your best low-level option and you can prep it in advance of combat. In 3.5 there's no rule against using multiple poisons on a single weapon as long as they are different types of poison. There is, however, a rule against stacking multiple doses of the same poison. (In Pathfinder, there are rules preventing the stacking of different poisons)

5. When it comes to special materials, abilities or enhancements, you can treat it just like any other projectile weapon. I'm personally fond of Dislocator. Sure, the save is pretty low, but the results are hilarious. The Distance ability is a must, though if you want to increase your range. You can also double up on the fun by enchanting your ammunition or having it made with special materials. Something about using adamantine sand also strikes me as hilarious. Weapon augmentation crystals are also useful. If you've got a psionic character, you can get a quick damage boost by having the blaster made from Deep Crystal.

6. If it's going to be a big part of a character, pump your con score, since it will increase the reflex save dc of the blast.

[Zombimode]

2. The penalties that the sand blaster imposes pretty much effect every sort of creature. The penalties are untyped and it's not a fort save, so technically creatures like undead or constructs still suffer if they fail their reflex check, even if it doesn't make any sense. The damage it deals is also untyped which can be good and bad.

The description specifies living creatures.

[mabriss lethe]

The description specifies living creatures.

Huh, I managed to miss that over several read-throughs...

[paranoidbox]

It seems the user needs to blow through the tube to shoot the sand. I mean, by RAW I guess I can see that it should work for medium-sized creatures (because of mabriss lethe's bullet point nr. 1) but the sand giants are large and the weapon is large, which means, to me and probably every DM I know, that the necessary lung capacity to operate the sand blaster exceeds that of medium creatures.

You could make one as a medium weapon, I suppose, and decrease the cone to 5', bringing it back up to 10' with the Distance ability (also maybe take the Far Shot feat?).

To clarify my position, it should work by RAW, but I doubt it would work if the DM insists on any kind of semblance of realism.

[mabriss lethe]

It seems the user needs to blow through the tube to shoot the sand. I mean, by RAW I guess I can see that it should work for medium-sized creatures (because of mabriss lethe's bullet point nr. 1) but the sand giants are large and the weapon is large, which means, to me and probably every DM I know, that the necessary lung capacity to operate the sand blaster exceeds that of medium creatures.

You could make one as a medium weapon, I suppose, and decrease the cone to 5', bringing it back up to 10' with the Distance ability (also maybe take the Far Shot feat?).

To clarify my position, it should work by RAW, but I doubt it would work if the DM insists on any kind of semblance of realism.

I tend to avoid discussing RAI and DM fiat in threads like this. We can argue the vagaries of those until we're both blue in the face (or in this case, until our keyboards blister our fingers.) RAW is the only constant that can be debated when you're finding out what the rules allow. What the DM allows or disallows is irrelevant. Those are all house rules. They are often necessary, but not they are not relevant to the discussion. A DM can and will make whatever house rules they like. Speculating on the nature of those changes is a pointless. This is a question of RAW, not possible houserules. (If I sound a little pedantic here, I apologize.)

Sticking to RAW: As for the size issue, Resizing rules already exist. Resizing would only affect the damage dice and the weight of the ammunition (and I suppose the cost if it were scaled beyond the "normal" range of sizes. I don't feel like double checking pricing rules right now.) Things like the size of the cone and the penalties it imposes would remain unchanged even if it were scaled down to fine size or up to colossal. They're artifacts of the weapon description and not covered by resizing rules. Does it make sense? Not at all, but it doesn't need to for the game to work.

Back on subject: What sort of abilities should you enchant it with? First off, We've already discussed the Distance property. It's nice and it's very high on the list of "Must Have" but it's not the first on the list. Aptitude is. I was reminded of a neat trick in another thread that will work amazingly for the sandblaster.

Aptitude (+1 bonus, ToB) It lets you use any weapon specific feat you have with it. Rapid Reload would be one of those feats, and would allow you to treat it as a light crossbow for the purpose of reloading. Congrats, you can now make iterative attacks with a pseudo-breath weapon. Also fun with an aptitude weapon : If you can qualify for the Boomerang Daze feat things get really fun, as everyone caught in the blast has to make a damage based save or be dazed for a round. I'm sure there are a ton of other aptitude tricks if you dig deep enough, just poke around.

If you're planning on using poison, Virulent is a nice ability, as it pushes the secondary poison damage to 5 rounds later instead of 1 minute. (also remember that you should acquire some sort of defense against poisoning yourself if you plan on going this route, as you will be handling this weapon a lot and there's a %5 chance of poisoning yourself every time you apply poison, ready the weapon, and when you use it. Master of Poisons is one of the better ones as it lets you apply poison as a swift action along with the normal effects of the Poison Use ability.

Something nice to spread the misery a little further might be Explosive, which can only be applied to ammo. In this case, anyone within 10 feet of a target struck by the cone takes an additional 1d6 of fire damage. (only use this if you have distance or fire resistance, because it can blow you up as well.)

Collision is always a solid bet, as are your standard elemental damage abilities.

Strength Sapping is neat, everyone caught in the blast would need to make a dc 15 fort save or become exhausted, and not badly priced at +2. Even if it did pass this property on to ammo, I'd relegate this property to ammo, and phase it out over the course of a campaign as many higher level threats are outright immune to it. The same goes for Ghost touch, it's a godsend when you need it, but it won't be often.

Alternately, You could simply boost its native enhancement bonus, it's not the worst thing you can do. The only reason to do it, though, is to get the weapon up to +3 for the use of greater weapon crystals, and you may decide that those aren't worth it and simply stick to the standard augmentation crystals that only require a +1. YMMV.

It's also good to remember than only certain special abilities have the "weapon bestows this property upon it's ammo" caveat. Those you shortlist for the sandblaster itself. Abilities that lack that text can still be added to ammunition unless it says otherwise. Weapon augment crystals are also a must have to keep the damage competitive.

What won't work? Splitting would be an amazing property, but unfortunately, it may only be applied to bows, crossbows, and their respective ammunition, which is not overcome by Aptitude.

Anything that keys off of a critical hit is also off the list. Remember, you don't make attack rolls with this weapon, so there's no way to score a crit.

Baatorian greensteel would be a nice, semi-inexpensive way to nudge up ammo damage, but this is one of those places where the sandblaster's untyped damage comes back to bite you. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be made from it.

Technically, Dispelling and Greater Dispelling fall under the same category of "That would be awesome but...." It could be a great way to help debuff a target, but unfortunately you're only considered the wielder of a weapon when it's in your hand, and this power doesn't allow a weapon to bestow its property upon ammo.

[paranoidbox]

I tend to avoid discussing RAI and DM fiat in threads like this. We can argue the vagaries of those until we're both blue in the face (or in this case, until our keyboards blister our fingers.) RAW is the only constant that can be debated when you're finding out what the rules allow. What the DM allows or disallows is irrelevant. Those are all house rules. They are often necessary, but not they are not relevant to the discussion. A DM can and will make whatever house rules they like. Speculating on the nature of those changes is a pointless. This is a question of RAW, not possible houserules. (If I sound a little pedantic here, I apologize.)

Oh no, I understand that. Therefore I was making clear that RAW-wise you were right. I did feel it was somewhat relevant to point out the what-you-call-house-rules, because the way I play the game is, well, not in a vacuum. I find the rule of strict adherence to RAW somewhat pointless when discussing what amounts to an entirely unrealistic fantasy even within the game.

I will withdraw from the conversation now and leave you to your further discussion of ideas.

[mabriss lethe]

Oh no, I understand that. Therefore I was making clear that RAW-wise you were right. I did feel it was somewhat relevant to point out the what-you-call-house-rules, because the way I play the game is, well, not in a vacuum. I find the rule of strict adherence to RAW somewhat pointless when discussing what amounts to an entirely unrealistic fantasy even within the game.

I will withdraw from the conversation now and leave you to your further discussion of ideas.

I just noticed your join date, so a little disclaimer that you may have already noticed: This forum has a heavy and often unspoken bias towards RAW. Of course games don't happen in a vacuum. I've been DMing for several years, and by God, I definitely don't play anything remotely resembling a purely RAW game. DMs and players make adjustments to find the right flavor and pace that's best for their shared experience. It's supposed to happen that way. The point I'm trying to make is that those adjustments are not officially published rules, and therefore will vary between tables. In order to discuss the rules between the tables, you need to make it a vacuum, reset the adjustments back to default, no matter how necessary they are at your table, and get down to the benchmarks as they were originally laid out. What you have left is that delightfully flawed thing we call RAW. It causes amazingly stupid things to happen, and that's where the fun starts here, by finding the stupid and running with it as far as it will go before it breaks.

I also don't want you to feel like you're being run off the thread. You are welcome here. If you have something you can add, by all means, stick around.

[paranoidbox]

I just noticed your join date, so a little disclaimer that you may have already noticed: This forum has a heavy and often unspoken bias towards RAW. Of course games don't happen in a vacuum. I've been DMing for several years, and by God, I definitely don't play anything remotely resembling a purely RAW game. DMs and players make adjustments to find the right flavor and pace that's best for their shared experience. It's supposed to happen that way. The point I'm trying to make is that those adjustments are not officially published rules, and therefore will vary between tables. In order to discuss the rules between the tables, you need to make it a vacuum, reset the adjustments back to default, no matter how necessary they are at your table, and get down to the benchmarks as they were originally laid out. What you have left is that delightfully flawed thing we call RAW. It causes amazingly stupid things to happen, and that's where the fun starts here, by finding the stupid and running with it as far as it will go before it breaks.

I also don't want you to feel like you're being run off the thread. You are welcome here. If you have something you can add, by all means, stick around.

*ahem* No, I understand. Also, no offense taken. In turn, if I have offended you, my apologies (but I'm guessing you weren't offended by your tone, so that's all cool.)

I don't really have much to add, you made a very good case already in one of your earlier posts.

[mabriss lethe]

Another short note on weapon size: The sandblaster lacks any notation on whether it's a light, one handed, or two handed weapon. That's the factor that controls if a medium creature can use it or not. Since it's not listed, we default to the general rule that states most projectile weapons are two handed. In this case, a medium creature cannot use a large version without assistance. Luckily, there's a lot of support for using oversized weapons. Powerful Build is the simplest, but often comes with a bump to LA. Heck, a half-giant character packing daddy's hand-me-down sandblaster could be very fun to play. There's a magic item in the MiC, Strongarm Bracers, that should work though I'm afb and can't double check the wording.

[StelioKantos]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to the thread. Thanks for all the information so far it's been quite helpful. I was thinking the two best enhancement types for it would be widespread debuffing or adding a bunch of extra damage abilties to it.

[mabriss lethe]

Agreed. It's a two part problem , though. What should go on the weapon, and what should go on the ammo.

My thought would be to go for a +3 Aptitude Distance enhancement, followed by +4 worth of non-elemental damage. Psychokinetic, collision, and some other +2, desiccating comes to mind, as does Energy aura. Grab a selection of greater energy assault crystals to quickly swap out damage types (each also has a secondary rider effect).

For the ammo, double up with a different form of elemental damage, and situational debuffs/special materials.

Your character should be built along the lines of a crossbow sniper build as most of the xbow specific feats will transfer over to the sandblaster via Aptitude. Also check out other weapon specific feats like boomerang daze to see what sort of other goodies can be brought over. Poison master is also a huge boon to the build.

[ShurikVch]

How about the various "abnormal" ammo for Sand Blaster?
DMG: Ungol Dust, Dust of sneezing and choking
Sandstorm: Black Sand, Deadly Stardust
BoVD: Luhix, Mordayn vapor, Mushroom powder
LoD: Kammarth, Oruighen

Yes, some of them are rather expensive, but if it works...

[mabriss lethe]

As an Off-the-Cuff answer without being able to consult my books at work, I'm afraid a lot of that will be pure DM fiat territory. I'm inclined to say they won't work by RAW. Each already have their own attack mechanics and the sandblaster entry does nothing to modify those.

I think the best answer might be this: if it is a material that has rules allowing it to be used to manufacture ammunition then you can use it in the sandblaster, though depending on the material, it may be a waste of money as its ability may not be compatible with the mechanics of the weapon. If it can't be used to manufacture ammunition, then you can't use it as ammo. With the obvious exception being plain old sand, since that's what the entry mentions. You might be able to use Shapesand, though, since it can mimic the function of other items, just as it could be formed into an arrow.

EDIT TO ADD:
I'm home from work and I can looks some of these over.
-Ungol Dust: No. It's listed as an inhaled poison, which can't be applied to a weapon, only injury and contact can be. Inhaled poisons also have their own rules for use:

nhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)

-Dust of sneezing and choking: No. It's a magic item that only works when activated in the manner described in its text. Or alternately, a case could be made for considering using the sandblaster to be a form of "casting it into the air" but it's effect would not change. Even if it did, it would actually be less effective than using it normally, since a 20 ft spread from the point of origin will cover a lot more of the battlefield than a 10 ft cone.

-Black Sand: Maybe? There aren't any distinct mechanics that would directly interfere with using it as the payload for a sandblaster, but there's no support for it either. You'd probably have to sweet talk your DM into agreeing to it. I'd say it's too much effort for the relatively small damage it does.

-Deadly Stardust: It's irrelevant if you could use it, it would, at best, just act like normal sand except that being around it for too long would turn you into a monster. It happens so slowly that there would be no real way to weaponize it and the one most at risk from it would be the person lugging it around everywhere, not the person getting shot by it.

-Luhix: Yes, it looks like it would work, since BoVD drugs are treated as a subclass of poisons and it is an injury poison. You could apply it to a sandblaster's normal payload.

-Moradyn vapor: No. It has to be brewed as a tea to work normally and its raw form is an ingested poison, so could not be applied to a weapon.

-Mushroom Powder: No. It could use the inhaled poison rules mentioned earlier, but could not be applied to a weapon.

-Kammarth: Yes, but only using the contact variant.

-Oruighen: No. As an inhaled poison it can't be applied to a weapon, and it has its own rules governing how it is used in combat.