How to optimize a Slayer

[13ones]

Since the ACG came out I've been looking at slayer and all of its archetypes and trying to figure out the best way to bring it to a high optimization game. This is a game that starts high and ends at the level cap, will provide ample money and only a handful of incredibly difficult encounters with a few skill check roleplay events between. But I'm not sure how to build an effective slayer, as Arcane are Archery are my comfort zones. The idea of a skirmishing sneak attacker does appeal to me and as I did make a promise to my game mates to stay away from my...uh...tendency to make a 'creepy caster' I'm looking at Slayer.

So how do I build one of these suckers? Are there any really cheesey builds? Can the Stygian stalker be made into something? A little help please.

[grarrrg]

Slayers do make the best "out of the box" Two-Weapon Fighters.
They have Full Bab, can grab the TWF feats, withOUT needing DEX, by way of Slayer Talent>Ranger Combat Styles.
And with Studied Target and Sneak Attack boosting the damage, you are pretty much set.

[Secret Wizard]

Slayer with Wizard VMC is pretty great.

Level 3 pick up a familiar for a good bonus to Will saves or Initiative.
Level 7 you can get either Divination (Foresight) School power or Transmutation (Shapechange), both are pretty great.
Level 11, you can get Time Stutter as an Arcane Discovery... which is awesome, because it allows you to outright assassinate folk by spending the three time stop rounds to study them and then just go for the strike.

[Psyren]

If you add in the Combat Stamina and Skill Unlock systems from Unchained they get a nice boost for minimal investment.

But you optimize them like any other T4 martial - focus on your preferred method(s) of combat (no more than 2-3) and dedicate your feats and items towards wrecking face with it/them.

[13ones]

So TWF is a possibility...but do I go for a Dex based one with Weapon finesse and slashing grace or do I build something with light weapons? Do I not bother with slashing grace and just get a couple of regular one handed weapons? Front line fighting is really something I have literally zero experience with.

[Secret Wizard]

Three options:

1. DEX-based. First of all, remember Slashing Grace does not apply to ANY light weapons at all, unless they errata the feat. So you'd HAVE to get two agile weapons, which is quite a money investment. Overall, it comes out with less power than the STR build with little gain.

2. STR-based. 14 DEX and Chainmail is pretty alright in terms of defense. Pick up the usual TWF feats, use Kukri for the high critical range, perhaps keep a morningstar ready to bypass DR.

3. Trickster build. You need 17 DEX by level 7 to make this build work. This can be easy to achieve if you play a Hobgoblin, a Catfolk, a Monkey Goblin,a Tengu or something that could get a bonus to DEX. You want to STILL be STR-based for this build though. What you do afterwards is take the Achaekek-favored combat style. At 2nd level, use Ranger Combat Style to pick up Double Slice; at 6th level, you can pick up Improved Two-Weapon Feint WITHOUT THE PREREQUISITES! This can allow you to attack enemies flat-footed without the heavy investment usually required to do this. You want to use to a regular feat for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (that's why you need the high DEX) and then use your 10th level Ranged Combat Style feat to get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Extra Anchovies]

If DSP is allowed, You can go Str-based TWF (via Prodigious TWF) or Dex-based (via Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility). I'd recommend the latter, because you'll have better AC and initiative.

[avr]

A problem with a high-level melee TWF slayer is that pounce is not anywhere in that build and your reach is pretty limited. That means all too often you move up (maybe taking an AoO), do a single attack for a moderate amount of damage, get full attacked back, and only then do you get your full attack in. The Lunge feat may help. Going down a combat maneuver path might make that single attack debuff the enemy enough that you don't get mauled by their full attack; note that dabbling in a combat maneuver won't be enough, you'll need to be good at it.

On which two weapons - if you go this way the weapon you want is the sawtooth sabre. It's a one-handed weapon which is treated as light for TWF penalties.

[Extra Anchovies]

On which two weapons - if you go this way the weapon you want is the sawtooth sabre. It's a one-handed weapon which is treated as light for TWF penalties.

Sawtooth Sabres are exotic, and thus require a feat to use. In exchange you get +1 average damage per hit. Not worth it. You'll probably want Kukris, or armor spikes/spiked gauntlets if you don't want to bother with Quick Draw.

[Ssalarn]

I like to grab the Vanguard Archetype and the Leadership feat (or the Squire feat at low level), and then go all guild master / Robin Hood and his merry men with Teamwork feats. You can actually get a pretty cool party coordinator and damage buffer out of that archetype, even without Leadership, expanding your ability to contribute in more ways than most mundane combat types.

[avr]

Sawtooth Sabres are exotic, and thus require a feat to use. In exchange you get +1 average damage per hit. Not worth it. You'll probably want Kukris, or armor spikes/spiked gauntlets if you don't want to bother with Quick Draw.
The trick is that as one-handed weapons they're eligible for Slashing Grace. +Dex+1 to damage is worth it, especially if you're starting at a high level and have a lot of feats, which slayers do.

[Extra Anchovies]

The trick is that as one-handed weapons they're eligible for Slashing Grace. +Dex+1 to damage is worth it, especially if you're starting at a high level and have a lot of feats, which slayers do.

Eh. If DSP content is available, Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) also gives Dex to damage instead of Strength, and works with any finesse weapon, and only requires Weapon Finesse (which OP is probably taking anyways if they're going Dex-based). So EWP (Sawtooth Sabre) + Slashing Grace is +dex+1 for two feats, and Deadly Agility is +dex for 1 feat. Which means we're back at +1 damage per hit for 1 feat.

[avr]

Eh. If DSP content is available, Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) also gives Dex to damage instead of Strength, and works with any finesse weapon, and only requires Weapon Finesse (which OP is probably taking anyways if they're going Dex-based). So EWP (Sawtooth Sabre) + Slashing Grace is +dex+1 for two feats, and Deadly Agility is +dex for 1 feat. Which means we're back at +1 damage per hit for 1 feat.
If DSP content is available, why play a slayer? And the OP has not at any time mentioned that 3rd party content is available in their game. DSP is the most commonly allowed 3rd party content, but still isn't allowed more often than not IME.

[Extra Anchovies]

If DSP content is available, why play a slayer?

Because he wants to? I assume your suggestion if DSP were available would be "play a stalker", but it's up to him. Also I don't like the stalker. I have no idea, but I just can't stand that class.

[13ones]

The allowed material includes Core, UM, UC, ARG. APG, ACG, UE, and thats about it. Occult Adventures isn't in and Unchained isn't likely to be permitted. I've talked to a few of my friends since going on vacation and they've told me TWF is straight up worse than using a straight 2-handed weapon pretty much for the reason stated above. It eats a lot of feats, it reduces accuracy, makes a character MAD as heck, and is generally going to do less damage. While TWf looks interesting I'm not sure if I feel comfortable enough to pull it off for my first front line character.

[Ssalarn]

The allowed material includes Core, UM, UC, ARG. APG, ACG, UE, and thats about it. Occult Adventures isn't in and Unchained isn't likely to be permitted. I've talked to a few of my friends since going on vacation and they've told me TWF is straight up worse than using a straight 2-handed weapon pretty much for the reason stated above. It eats a lot of feats, it reduces accuracy, makes a character MAD as heck, and is generally going to do less damage. While TWf looks interesting I'm not sure if I feel comfortable enough to pull it off for my first front line character.

Two-Weapon Fighting is actually mathematically superior for the Slayer. He can use his Talents to pull Ranger Fighting Style feats so the cost is mitigated, he's got full BAB to deal with the penalties, and he has multiple class features that stack damage onto each hit. I can see if I can pull a spreadsheet showing the numbers if you'd like. It's generally 3/4 BAB classes for whom TWF is subpar or a straight up crap shoot, or classes like the Barbarian who prefer THF due to the fact that most of their damage comes from their STR modifier and they lack the feats to support TWF well.

[13ones]

So what kind of feats and stat spread would I be looking at for all of this? Is ther any reason to take Stygian Slayer which can get access to magical items that provide him with Greater Invisibility?

[grarrrg]

I've talked to a few of my friends since going on vacation and they've told me TWF is straight up worse than using a straight 2-handed weapon pretty much for the reason stated above. It eats a lot of feats, it reduces accuracy, makes a character MAD as heck, and is generally going to do less damage.

Your friends are (mostly) out of date on their TWF knowledge.

Feats: I will grant you that TWF usually takes more feats than THF builds. Any class with a reasonable number of bonus feats (Fighter, Ranger, Slayer) will not find this a problem.

Reduced accuracy: Generally looking at a -2 on all of your attacks, but you are getting roughly double the number of attacks, and an equal increase in the number of Critical attacks (there is one archetype of Fighter that can negate TWF penalties). In general this balances out (see also: "Less Damage" below).

MAD as heck: This is the big one that _used_ to be a problem. You (usually) needed high DEX in order to take the TWF feats, but still needed STR to increase damage.
_Used_ to be a problem. Previously only the Ranger could get around needing 17+ DEX, they could leave DEX at 10 and just focus on STR and pick up the feats for 'free'. Slayer has access to the same 'req-less' feats the Ranger does.
Also, there are a variety of ways to get DEX to damage now, there's the Agile enchantment, Slashing Grace, 3 levels of Unchained-Rogue, etc... so you don't strictly need STR either.

Less Damage: This is the big sticking point. A THF has not problem smashing through DR, a TWF has smaller weapon dice combined with a smaller stat bonus, criticals can make up for this, but shouldn't be relied upon. Rogue was usually the "go-to" to help fix this, as Sneak Dice could easily make up for the damage loss, but the 3/4 Bab hurt quite a bit.
Rangers could also get around this somewhat by way of Favored Enemy (add Instant Enemy spell to taste).
Slayers have Full Bab, Sneak Dice AND an additional "use on any target +accuracy/+Damage" ability.

Slayers can TWF just fine thank you.


So what kind of feats and stat spread would I be looking at for all of this? Is ther any reason to take Stygian Slayer which can get access to magical items that provide him with Greater Invisibility?

Choose if you want to go a STR route, or a DEX route. If going STR you'll still probably want a DEX of 12 or 14 for Initiative/AC, if going DEX you only need enough STR for carry weight really.


As for Stygian Slayer, due to the lost Medium Armor prof, they're probably better off more DEX focused.
And to cast Greater Invisibility you need a free hand to hold the Wand/Scroll/whatever, which doesn't combine easily with TWF.

[Extra Anchovies]

As for Stygian Slayer, due to the lost Medium Armor prof, they're probably better off more DEX focused.
And to cast Greater Invisibility you need a free hand to hold the Wand/Scroll/whatever, which doesn't combine easily with TWF.

One of my favorite off-hand weapons for TWF for this reason is the cestus/spiked armor. Both of them let you keep a hand free or mostly free.

[Ssalarn]

One of my favorite off-hand weapons for TWF for this reason is the cestus/spiked armor. Both of them let you keep a hand free or mostly free.

Do you want me to find the FAQ that says you can't do that, or would you prefer not to hear about metaphorical hands that prevent you from using your hands? In Pathfinder a humanoid with the standard number of "hands" has two "hands" available in a round. If one of those "hands" is used for spiked armor, it isn't available for spellcasting.

[grarrrg]

Do you want me to find the FAQ that says you can't do that, or would you prefer not to hear about metaphorical hands that prevent you from using your hands? In Pathfinder a humanoid with the standard number of "hands" has two "hands" available in a round. If one of those "hands" is used for spiked armor, it isn't available for spellcasting.

I get what you're saying, but there are a few things at play here. Firstly, remember that hands can do different things from round to round.

Assume you are TWF with Kukris and you have a Wand of Greater Invisibility.
To cast the spell, you'd need 1 hand holding the Wand, and the other hand presumably has a Kukri.
Standard action to cast the spell, then you'd need to either spend a Move action to put the Wand away, OR a Free action to drop it on the ground. No attacks for you this round.
2nd round you would draw your other Kukri (assume Free action from Quick Draw), and you'd probably have to Move next to your opponent, then 1 attack for a Standard action.
3rd round you can finally get a Full Attack.

Assuming you are using a Cestus or two and a Wand of Greater Invisibility.
1st round you have weapons in both hands AND can still hold a Wand. So you cast the Spell as a Standard action. Since you don't need to put the Wand away to use your weapon, your Move Action is open to do what you want. We'll assume you move next to your opponent.
2nd round YOU CAN FULL ATTACK!

At no point did we "use the same hand for 2 things at the same time" so we're safe.

[Extra Anchovies]

Do you want me to find the FAQ that says you can't do that, or would you prefer not to hear about metaphorical hands that prevent you from using your hands? In Pathfinder a humanoid with the standard number of "hands" has two "hands" available in a round. If one of those "hands" is used for spiked armor, it isn't available for spellcasting.

That's gross and I don't like it. That pretty much defeats the point of a cestus, other than it being a bludgeoning weapon that you don't need to spend an action to draw (assuming you keep them on all the time).

Funny related thing: I played a cestus-using Slayer in a recent game so I wouldn't need to bother with Quick Draw, and then my DM gave me a pair of Called Cesti that I could summon together as a swift action, which kind of defeats the purpose of keeping them on all the time :smalltongue:

[avr]

The allowed material includes Core, UM, UC, ARG. APG, ACG, UE, and thats about it. Occult Adventures isn't in and Unchained isn't likely to be permitted. I've talked to a few of my friends since going on vacation and they've told me TWF is straight up worse than using a straight 2-handed weapon pretty much for the reason stated above. It eats a lot of feats, it reduces accuracy, makes a character MAD as heck, and is generally going to do less damage. While TWf looks interesting I'm not sure if I feel comfortable enough to pull it off for my first front line character.
Others have covered the problems you mention; I'll just repeat that TWF has mobility problems. You need something to make your single attack effective when you have to take one & a combat maneuver (e.g. Dirty Trick) is a suitable way to do so.

E.g. For a human slayer 15 these feats/talents might work.

1: weapon focus (sawtooth sabre)
H: ewp (sawtooth sabre)
2T: finesse rogue (weapon finesse)
3: slashing grace
4T: ranger combat style (TWF)
5: combat expertise
6T: ranger combat style (Imp TWF)
7: improved dirty trick
8T: combat trick (lunge)
9: greater dirty trick
10T: ranger combat style (Greater TWF)
11: quick dirty trick
12T: evasion
13: combat reflexes
14T: opportunist
15: dastardly finish

This sets you up with the ability to mess someone up with a dirty trick when you have to move and attack or to do so with one of your attacks on a full attack. Lunge makes your reach 10', lessening the amount of moving you have to do, and attack and damage both come off Dex, which makes you less MAD. You have a couple of other tricks for use when flanking or if the enemy has been stunned by one of your comrades.

If you'd still rather see a THF slayer say so.

Stygian slayers can provide some of their own buffs from items. For a TWF guy this involves some juggling and is less than ideal in a fight. The other main use of their abilities is when you're off sneaking around alone and there's no-one nearby to assist. Characters who do this a lot tend to die horribly. I don't recommend it.

[13ones]

Sadly as I don't have access to ISWG I can't do Sawtooth sabers, sadly.

[avr]

You can still do TWF with kukris as Secret Wizard noted above, you'll just need to get the Agile +1 ability on them or else focus on strength. It even saves a few feats.

Anyway, this is how I'd do a 2H slayer.

1 power attack
H: cleave
2t: rgr style (quick draw)
3: cleaving finish
4t: equipment trick (heavy blade scabbard)
5: furious focus
6t: rgr style (close quarters thrower)
7: lunge
8t: slow reactions
9: blind fight
10t: rgr style (false opening)
11: improved blind fight
12t: combat trick (improved overrun)
13: charge through
14t: opportunist
15: greater overrun

Since a single attack is worthwhile you focus on getting as many of them as possible via opportunist, cleaving finish, charge through/greater overrun as well as your normal attacks. False Opening and Equipment Trick let you set up sneak attack by drawing your weapon and throwing the combat scabbard at the target; you may want a spare blade or two in case you want to do it again.

Edit: Equipment Trick requires the Adventurer's Armory. The Throwing combat style for false opening is fairly pointless without it on this character. Maybe take the actual Two Handed Weapon style & do this instead:

1 power attack
H: combat reflexes
2t: rgr style (cleave)
3: cleaving finish
4t: combat trick (improved overrun)
5: charge through
6t: rgr style (furious focus)
7: lunge
8t: slow reactions
9: blind fight
10t: rgr style (dreadful carnage)
11: improved blind fight
12t: hunter's surprise
13: dazing assault
14t: opportunist
15: greater overrun

You don't have the easy sneak attack setup of false opening, but you have dreadful carnage and dazing assault as debuffs available.

[Crimson_Crow]

Yeah, I know, it's been 5 years since there was an new answer to this post, but if somebody read me:
Better than kukri there's waveblade: same crit range, cheap, 1d6,light and a small bonus against disarmement

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread slain.