[3.5] Familiars for gishes?

[Valwyn]

Is it viable for a gish to have a familar? Maybe use it as a mount? I was thinking a winter wolf (they are large, so it should work for humans). Thing is, I have little experience with mounts and familiars, but I do know they tend to die easily, so is this idea even worth trying?

[DrMotives]

You might try some of the familiars in Complete Warrior, which are meant as combat robot buddies. Help you flank and fight. Or, you could decide that's too risky and get a bird. Keep it away from the fights, just use it as a scout for recon. Option 3 would be to scrap the whole familiar thing, and look into alternate class features that replace familiar with something you'd rather use. Those options depend on your class though. Generalist mages, specialist wizards, sorcerers, and hexblades all have unique features they can swap out their familiar for.

[Snowbluff]

They only die half as easily as you do. :smalltongue:

[gorfnab]

Quite a few decent options for combat familiars listed in The Familiar Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/familiars-handbook.html)
The ones that seem to stand out to me anyways are the Jaculi, Winter Wolf, Imp, and some of the Mephits.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Aside from the low HP they're not that fragile. You need to use them differently from summons, undead or other forms of expendable minions, but that should be obvious.

The thing is that there's always a risk, and you don't need to risk your familiar in direct combat because of the above options. Also one of the bigger draws of familiars is that they share your skills, making them predisposed for a support role, with the best option being a focus on UMD. That's not something summons or (most) undead can do.

If you want a mount or combat pet you're probably better off with the Wild Cohort feat. You can even still get a normal familiar for the same feat cost as you'd pay for an improved one otherwise and use it in a less risky role.

[WeaselGuy]

Dunno how much it will help, but this build competition thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409650-Junkyard-Wars-XI-Magical-Darkness-Improved-Familiar-Wizard/page4) involves using Improved Familiar, and I'm pretty sure one of them used a Winter Wolf as well.

edit: found the entry with Winter Wolf, link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19184723&postcount=100).

[khadgar567]

from top of my mind( and ar*e) mind steed which you can wear ( aka use the monster's physical stats and your mental stats) its stats str 17, dex 12, con 18, in 5 ( uses your int instead), wis 14 ( uses your wis instead), cha 6( uses your cha instead) and best thing with just two templates ( magebred and war beast) stats became Str 22 dex 16 con 23 int 5(uses host) wis 16 ( uses host) cha 6 (uses host) pretty solid for meat suit armor and the best thing you can steel cast spells from it if you get the big guy as familiar and has 70 feet movement speed

[SinsI]

Is it viable for a gish to have a familar? Maybe use it as a mount? I was thinking a winter wolf (they are large, so it should work for humans). Thing is, I have little experience with mounts and familiars, but I do know they tend to die easily, so is this idea even worth trying?
Depends. Just don't forget that lots of familiar abilities (and choices for Improved Familiar/Dragon Familiar) are based on your base arcane caster class level, so they don't mesh well with most prestige classes. If you are going Duskblade 20, Bard 20 or Dragonfire Shaman 20 they are very good.

[Valwyn]

You might try some of the familiars in Complete Warrior, which are meant as combat robot buddies. Help you flank and fight. Or, you could decide that's too risky and get a bird. Keep it away from the fights, just use it as a scout for recon. Option 3 would be to scrap the whole familiar thing, and look into alternate class features that replace familiar with something you'd rather use. Those options depend on your class though. Generalist mages, specialist wizards, sorcerers, and hexblades all have unique features they can swap out their familiar for.

Yeah, I thought about that. The construct familiars might be interesting. I'm using sorcerer, so I'm debating whether to use the metamagic ACF or just suck it up and wait until Arcane Spellsurge comes online.


The thing is that there's always a risk, and you don't need to risk your familiar in direct combat because of the above options. Also one of the bigger draws of familiars is that they share your skills, making them predisposed for a support role, with the best option being a focus on UMD. That's not something summons or (most) undead can do.

Well, winter wolves do speak, but they don't have hands. Maybe a mouthpick weapon with a wand chamber? There must be a spell with no verbal components they could use. Or maybe just put a scroll in front of them so they can read it?


If you want a mount or combat pet you're probably better off with the Wild Cohort feat. You can even still get a normal familiar for the same feat cost as you'd pay for an improved one otherwise and use it in a less risky role.

Only problem with that is that you can't share spells wild cohorts. Still an interesting idea.


Dunno how much it will help, but this build competition thread involves using Improved Familiar, and I'm pretty sure one of them used a Winter Wolf as well.

The winter wolf is just a sidenote there, but reading about ToM classes is interesting because I'm not very familiar with them. Thanks for the link. :)


from top of my mind( and ar*e) mind steed which you can wear

What's a mind steed? It doesn't sound familiar.

The build I'm thinking about (for those curious) is more or less like this:
Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/HP 2/Sor 3/Swift Blade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spell Sword 1/Raumathi Battlemage 3

Str 13
Dex 13
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 18 => 25

HP: 4d8+7d4+6d10+3d6 = 20-138
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
CL: 18

Fort: 9
Ref: 7
Will: 21

Level 1 (HP 1): Dodge, Human [Mobility], Human Martial Weapon (Bastard Sword), Adaptive Learning (UMD),
Level 2 (Sor 1): Familiar/Metamagic Specialist,
Level 3 (HP 2): Human Paragon Bonus Feat [Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword)], Feat,
Level 4 (HP 3): +1 CHA, Ability Boost (+2 Cha)
Level 5 (Sor 2):
Level 6 (Sor 3): Feat,
Level 7 (Sor 4):
Level 8 (SB 1): +1 CHA, Spring Attack, Swift Surge +1,
Level 9 (SB 2): Blurred Alacrity +1, Combat Casting,
Level 10 (SB 3): Sudden Casting,
Level 11 (AC 1): Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration,
Level 12 (AC 2): +1 CHA, Swift Abjuration, Feat (Improved Familiar?),
Level 13 (AC 3):
Level 14 (AC 4): Arcane Boost,
Level 15 (AC 5): Martial Arcanist, Iron Will,
Level 16 (DS 1): +1 CHA, Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus +1,
Level 17 (SS 1): Ignore Spell Failure 10%,
Level 18 (RBM 1): Sword Focus, Channel Spell I, Feat,
Level 19 (RBM 2): Battle Spell (Silent),
Level 20 (RBM 3): +1 CHA, Channel Spell II,

I have four free feats, one of which might be Improved Familiar. Now that I think about it, only Sorc levels count for advancing the familiar, so I should probably just trade it and take Obtain Familiar at level 6 and then Improved Familiar at level 12. That leaves two free feats, so either some metamagic (Extend and maybe Still or Silent) or some bonus damage (Power Attack and Arcane Strike).

I should also probably invest more in Str, but these are the minimum stats I'd like to use.

Edit: ninja'd by SinsI.

[DarkSonic1337]

Depends. Just don't forget that lots of familiar abilities (and choices for Improved Familiar/Dragon Familiar) are based on your base arcane caster class level, so they don't mesh well with most prestige classes. If you are going Duskblade 20, Bard 20 or Dragonfire Shaman 20 they are very good.

Actually, this is fairly easy to work around. The obtain familiar feat gives you a familiar based off your caster level, not your class level. So you can trade your original familiar for some alternative class feature, then take obtain familiar to get a prestige class friendly familiar instead.

[SinsI]

Actually, this is fairly easy to work around. The obtain familiar feat gives you a familiar based off your caster level, not your class level. So you can trade your original familiar for some alternative class feature, then take obtain familiar to get a prestige class friendly familiar instead.

No. It gives you familar based on total class levels in arcane caster classes, and all the PRCs that just advance spellcasting in another class are thus exempt (unless the PRC has appropriate ability, like Alienist, Fleshwarper or Arcane Hierophant). It is never based on caster level (since that one is not even something that is in any way constant).


For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack.

[WeaselGuy]

No. It gives you familar based on total class levels in arcane caster classes, and all the PRCs that just advance spellcasting in another class are thus exempt (unless the PRC has appropriate ability, like Alienist, Fleshwarper or Arcane Hierophant). It is never based on caster level (since that one is not even something that is in any way constant).

Here's what you do to get around that. If you start as Wizard (which is generally recommended) you take one of the UA wizard variants to trade out your familiar in favor of something else (abrupt jaunt is fairly popular). Then, at level 3, take the Obtain Familiar feat, which scales based on caster level, not class level. Now, every PrC or caster dip you take will progress the familiar, just as if you had all of those levels in wizard.

edit: swordsaged by SinsI, and by like, 7 minutes too...
edit2: actually, i was beaten to the punch by DarkSonic about 2 hours ago, and SinsI corrected him. I was pretty sure the Obtain Familiar trick worked for PrC's that advanced caster level though... research must commence!

[khadgar567]

What's a mind steed? It doesn't sound familiar.

well thats the ar*e part this is in one is in the twisted lore book
here is the link (http://linuxdigital.net/img/DnD-3.5/Supplements/Races/Monsters/Twisted%20Lore.pdf)
its in page 26

[Troacctid]

No. It gives you familar based on total class levels in arcane caster classes, and all the PRCs that just advance spellcasting in another class are thus exempt (unless the PRC has appropriate ability, like Alienist, Fleshwarper or Arcane Hierophant). It is never based on caster level (since that one is not even something that is in any way constant).

Well sure, but only if you think arcane spellcasting-advancing prestige classes aren't arcane spellcasting classes. They certainly look like arcane spellcasting classes to me.

[SinsI]

Well sure, but only if you think arcane spellcasting-advancing prestige classes aren't arcane spellcasting classes. They certainly look like arcane spellcasting classes to me.

Qualify for them using not a class but a feat like Magical Training, and tell me how that PRC allowed you to cast arcane spells.