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henebry
2007-04-19, 09:44 PM
The Crusader from the ToB makes an intriguing substitute for the paladin because it's not restricted to LG alignment. You just need a cause.

I have a player who's interested in running a CN Crusader. The basic idea is that he's a crusader of Kord, someone who lets his emotions run away from him and who is (therefore) wholly capable of acts of great good and also of great evil. But he always "shoots from the hip", acts on first instinct.

Anyway, when he and I sat down to look over the disciplines for the Crusader, I was surprised to find that none of them really fit his character conception: White Raven and Devoted Spirit both sound appropriate to an LG crusader, which is ironic since it returns us to the LG-restricted paladin. Stone Dragon is a bit better suited, but the fluff suggests a character with a firm grounding, slow to anger and usually righteous. My player's more interested in playing a hothead.

And it seems to both of us that the "maneuvers granted" system used for Crusaders is uniquely appropriate to a chaotically aligned character who lets his emotions rule him. So, too, the Crusader's Furious Counterstroke ability.

So I'm considering houseruling that he can take maneuvers from the Iron Heart discipline. And that would set him up for Bloodstorm Blade down the road.

Any comments? Did the book's author restrict Iron Heart to Warblades for a good reason that any of you know of?

Thanks!

storybookknight
2007-04-19, 10:00 PM
Well, it's an issue of play balance. Warblades are really the combat monsters; they focus the most on mastery of a weapon. Now, because it's a Crusader of Kord, they could have a different and wonky order - but remove Devoted Spirit. Having both is way too good. Don't get rid of White Raven for Iron Heart, because they're nothing alike. Both Devoted and Iron focus on boosting yourself, so they work well together.

Nebo_
2007-04-19, 10:02 PM
I'd let him do it though, I am pretty lenient. I don't think it would break the game balance if you let him replace one of his other disciplines with Iron Heart.

Scribbler
2007-04-19, 10:10 PM
I agree with the above--don't just give it to him, but replacing one of the others would be ok for me. That way, he's still got to pick from about the same number to learn.

henebry
2007-04-20, 06:41 AM
Great. Thanks for the advice.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-20, 08:36 AM
...and he can't multiclass why? It greatly increasing endurance, allows you to pick from two uberschools (Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit). Gives a bit of MAD with all the INT-based class abilities off of the Warblade...

You can also easily change flavor text and move names. Radiant Charge becomes Wrathful Lunge, Law Bringer becomes Retributive Blow, War Leader's Charge becomes Inflame the Heart. Whatever makes your character work.

ToB is all about the flavor, and is highly balanced no matter how you juggle it—as long as you don't give without taking. If you really want him to have Iron Heart, then do not let him have a choice about which one he trades out. Give him Iron Heart. Take away Devoted Spirit. Only Warblades get Iron Heart and only Crusaders get Devoted Spirit. There is a reason for this. Do point out to him, however, that once he as made this trade his maneuver selection is essentially identical to a Warblade's, only with fewer schools (Iron Heart, White Raven, Stone Dragon as opposed to a Warblade's Iron Heart, White Raven, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind).

Ferreon
2007-04-20, 03:25 PM
what's wrong with the various chaotic maneuvers?

and how is hitting someone and healing yourself/a friend at the same time not chaotic? It doesn't follow natural law after all

henebry
2007-04-20, 10:22 PM
His real aim is the Bloodstorm Blade PrC. He could do that as a standard warblade, but he thought the Maneuvers granted mechanism of the Crusader was oddly appealing. But the fact is that we're both newcomers to the ToB, so I wanted to ask you folks' advice before making any modifications. The system takes some getting used to.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-24, 10:28 AM
If he wants Bloodstorm Blade, don't go Crusader, go Warblade. At least multiclass into Warblade. I assure you that Crusaders aren't aimed at LG. You can change the flavor of maneuvers like Annarrkki said. Plus, the chaotic maneuvers and stances are awesome. Also, the flavor of a Crusader is a righteous follower of a cause, not a raging warrior like your player wants. The Crusader gets divine instruction (as I understand it) to learn his maneuvers, whereas the Warblade trains for years, with Iron Heart being the ultimate martial art form. For that reason, I would discourage giving Crusader Iron Heart instead of Devoted Spirit because it ruins the flavor of it. And don't replace any other discipline with Iron Heart, if you do give him Iron Heart you have to drop Devoted Spirit to be balanced (and thereby dropping all the good chaotic maneuvers).

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-24, 10:35 AM
If he wants Bloodstorm Blade, don't go Crusader, go Warblade. At least multiclass into Warblade. I assure you that Crusaders aren't aimed at LG. You can change the flavor of maneuvers like Annarrkki said. Plus, the chaotic maneuvers and stances are awesome. Also, the flavor of a Crusader is a righteous follower of a cause, not a raging warrior like your player wants. The Crusader gets divine instruction (as I understand it) to learn his maneuvers, whereas the Warblade trains for years, with Iron Heart being the ultimate martial art form. For that reason, I would discourage giving Crusader Iron Heart instead of Devoted Spirit because it ruins the flavor of it. And don't replace any other discipline with Iron Heart, if you do give him Iron Heart you have to drop Devoted Spirit to be balanced (and thereby dropping all the good chaotic maneuvers).

The nice thing about Tome of Battle is that you can also change the class flavor. I'd say the concept fits well with a Crusader.

I say switch out Devoted Spirit for it unless he wants to pick up a feat to gain access to it.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-24, 01:42 PM
If he just likes the crusader recovery mechanic, that's understandable. It's the best one out there.

However, I am inclined to agree with Tataraus, in that, while you can customize a class, and, as the debate rages in another thread, you can customize the flavor—but I would say that you can only customize it to a point. The Crusader stands for a cause, and gets his maneuver circumstantially. Well, randomly, really. The whole premise of the crusader is that he... crusades. Now. It could be changed, and I would say that subbing out Devoted Spirit with Iron Heart wouldn't be game-breaking, his character premise really does sound much more like a Warblade.