[3.5] Advice building a speedy Cloistered Cleric?

[Feddlefew]

I'm building a human Cloistered cleric of Fharlagnh with the Knowledge, Celerity and Travel domains. Right now I have a list of feats I might take, some of my stats assigned, and a rough character concept. My goals are 1) a mid-op fragile speedster type build, and 2) to not out-shine the party bard.

The character concept is "Noble-blooded wandering scholar who seeks out knowlage and forgotten lore from neighboring countries."

My current stats are Str 11, Con 9, Dex 16, Int ??, Wis 17, Cha ??, with an 11 and a 16 left unassigned. On the one hand, having a high intelligence fits the character concept better. On the other, having a high Charisma opens up shenanigans with turning-replacement feats. Con is my char's dump stat as part of a running gag.

I have some idea of which feats I want, but I'm open to suggestions not on the list.

Core:
Improved Initiative
Extra turning (has Synergies with the feats which use turning for other effects)

Complete Divine:
Domain Spontaneity (???)- Use useless turn undeads to cast spells from one domain
Divine Metamagic (Extend)- Use useless turn undeads to use metamagic, might not be allowed by DM.

[GilesTheCleric]

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413648-Cleric-of-Fharlanghn&highlight=initiate) a somewhat recent thread on a coincidentally similar topic.

Picking up Travel Devotion wouldn't hurt, in addition to the feats mentioned in that thread.

[Feddlefew]

Hmmm...

Taking the spontaneous domain casting class variant is tempting, but the rest of the party is pretty low op and two players in particular tend to choose their combat actions.... poorly. :smallfrown:

[GilesTheCleric]

My approach when playing a high-op, high-tier character in a low-op, low-tier game is simply to hold back a lot of the time, or to use the majority of my abilities in rp/ for backstory-progressing purposes (I play clerics, so I often devote lots of spells and gold to my church of choice) in ways that don't outshine the others too often. And, just because you have an option available doesn't mean that you need to use it more than every 20 sessions. Besides, unless they're incredibly perceptive, they probably won't be keeping track of every spell of each level you have, particularly since you're a cleric and can change your list daily.

[LentilNinja]

It all boils down to HOW you imagine you'll be playing this character.

The Spontaneous Domain casting wont make you OP, it'll just give you less healing spells. It pretty much turns you into more of a spellcaster than a healer.
However,

the party is pretty low op and two players in particular tend to choose their combat actions.... poorly. :smallfrown:
makes me think your role would best be suited to playing a buffer. By buffing your team in a specific way, you can almost co-ordinate them to play their turn how they should (e.g. if you cast Bull's Strength, the buffed character would be more inclined to make use of his buff to attack & damage so he'd be using melee next turn). If you wanna go for this, keep your spontaneous healing.

As for where to assign your ability scores:

>If you want to go down DMM, definitely pick Charisma. 16 in CHA will give 6 turn attempts, and Extra Turning bulks that to a 10. That should be plenty for extending (persisting when you get more attempts to do it more than once) or quickening spells for your party.

>Now, if you don't want DMM (everyone will argue its the best choice, but I find it quite difficult unless you have the feats/CHA to invest) I'd suggest put that 16 in INT and become a Knowledgemancer. Put good ranks in all the knowledges that govern identifying monsters & then take Collector of Stories from Complete Scoundrel. This will give your party an extra edge because on high enough checks your DM will tell the party about the monster's weaknesses. Thematically, I think this is very fitting for a Cloistered Cleric.

Hope this helps. Not really advised people much on build's before :P

[Feddlefew]

>If you want to go down DMM, definitely pick Charisma. 16 in CHA will give 6 turn attempts, and Extra Turning bulks that to a 10. That should be plenty for extending (persisting when you get more attempts to do it more than once) or quickening spells for your party.

The thing is, I don't know if my DM will allow divine meta magic in this campaign. I'll send a text his way to ask.

[LentilNinja]

I'll send a text his way to ask.

While we wait, heres the rule for identifying monsters with Knowledge checks:

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

And here is the list of Knowledges that affect monsters:

Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes)
Local (humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin)
Psionics (astral constructs, psionic races, psionic monsters)
Religion (undead)
The planes (outsiders, elementals)


And lastly, a list of skill synergies concerning the Knowledges:

Knowledge (arcana): +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
Knowledge (geography): +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
Knowledge (history): +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
Knowledge (local): +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
Knowledge (nature): +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic: desert: forest: hill: marsh: mountains: or plains).
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
Knowledge (psionics): +2 bonus on Psicraft checks.
Knowledge (religion): +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
Knowledge (the planes): +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
Knowledge (dungeoneering): +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.

Autohypnosis: +2 bonus on Knowledge (psionics) checks.
Survival: +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.

[GilesTheCleric]

There's also a few feats that will let you take 10 on knowledge checks. Don't forget Divine Insight and co to buff your checks, and divination/scrying to know what's coming ahead of time.

[Feddlefew]

Is improved initiative worthwhile if I go knowlage cleric route?

I also can't decide on a weapon. A bundle of javelins, maybe? I'd love to have a short bow (no need to waste a move action reloading) but it's not worth spending a feat for proficiency.

[GilesTheCleric]

Improved initiative improves in usefulness as you go up in level, but if you're planning on buffing and divining rather than bfc and SoLs, then it's not as important.

Pick the weapon that you like best. All of them are within 0-3 damage of each other. If you're going for power attack/ intuitive attack/ divine might, then any twohander is more efficient than a onehander.

Edit: you can get around needing a ranged weapon with spells like spiritual weapon, footsteps of the divine, wind wall, spider climb, and one whose name escapes me (afb) that lets you shoot lasers from your eyes - I think that's a sanctified spell. You can also get martial proficiency from a prestige class at 6.

[ZamielVanWeber]

While we wait, heres the rule for identifying monsters with Knowledge checks:


And here is the list of Knowledges that affect monsters:

Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes)
Local (humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin)
Psionics (astral constructs, psionic races, psionic monsters)
Religion (undead)
The planes (outsiders, elementals)


And lastly, a list of skill synergies concerning the Knowledges:

Knowledge (arcana): +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
Knowledge (geography): +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
Knowledge (history): +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
Knowledge (local): +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
Knowledge (nature): +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic: desert: forest: hill: marsh: mountains: or plains).
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
Knowledge (psionics): +2 bonus on Psicraft checks.
Knowledge (religion): +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
Knowledge (the planes): +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
Knowledge (dungeoneering): +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.

Autohypnosis: +2 bonus on Knowledge (psionics) checks.
Survival: +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.


There is also a skill trick, Collector of Stories, that gives +5 to identifying a monster. Not sure if it works with Knowledge devotion but I find it useful in any knowledge based build.

[GilesTheCleric]

Iirc (afb), collector of stories says "checks to identify a creature", which is also what's required for knowledge devotion, so they work together. There's also a few feats that will let you take 10 on know checks, but I can't recall the names offhand.

[Feddlefew]

My cleric has strength 11 and dex 16, and my Con isn't great. I think I want a ranged weapon to start with and then pick up weapon finesse at 3rd when I'm a little less squishy.

What do BFC and SoL stand for?

[GilesTheCleric]

If you do want to hit things with a ranged weapon, you can swap your dex to con then go with Zen archery for your ranged weapon. Alternatively, you don't need to invest any feats or anything into your weapon and can just go with a crossbow or something. As a cleric, you probably don't need weapon finesse, since you can get full bab with divine power, and strength will increase your damage as well. If you do want to finesse, look into getting a feycraft weapon (dmg2) instead of the feat.

BFC means battlefield control, like obscuring mist or wall of x. SoL means save or lose, often used interchangeably with save or die, and save or suck. Those are all effects that can win you a battle with one spell, such as ice slick or solid fog. Compare with no save just die (NSjD) spells like earthquake. (Edit: sometimes categories overlap - ice slick is both BFC and SoL, but something like command monster would be only SoL)

See the favoured soul spells link in my Sig for a brief primer on spells.

[Troacctid]

You're probably better off taking a reserve feat instead of making weapon attacks. It'll deal more damage, key off your Wisdom instead of Str or Dex, and potentially hit multiple enemies instead of just one. Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, and Winter's Blast are the easiest for a Cleric to power.

[Telonius]

What's your table's ruling on Sacred Fist? (8/10 casting, or text trumps table?) If it's ruled full casting, you'd only lose a single level of casting (to Monk1) and get +30 speed and other assorted goodies. Unfortunately only 4+Int skills, so not as many as if you're in Cloistered Cleric the whole way. It doesn't advance turning chances, but if you're mainly using it to fuel feats you probably won't miss that.

[Feddlefew]

Cloistered Clerics only have poor BAB.

I sort of want to keep the 16 in dex for two reasons: 1) My char doesn't have proficiency with heavy or medium armor as a Cloistered Cleric, and 2) the Celerity domain power (+10 to movement speed) only works with light or no armor. My plan is to be able to dodge and outrun dangerous things which are trying to murder my character.

Right now the party is full of beefy meat shields with good melee attacks, a bard, and a ranged-focused scout. Divine meta magic has been approved by the DM, as long as I stay far away from the Weather domain. I'm torn, because I on the one hand like the idea of a wandering scholarly cleric, but on the other there's so many shenanigans I can get up to with Divine meta magic. :smallfrown:

[Troacctid]

Wait, what's in the Weather domain that would be too good with DMM? Is he worried about, like, Maximized Ice Storms? Persistent Call Lightning? I don't get it. :smallconfused:

[Red Fel]

Wait, what's in the Weather domain that would be too good with DMM? Is he worried about, like, Maximized Ice Storms? Persistent Call Lightning? I don't get it. :smallconfused:

To be fair, Control Winds at high enough CL is an encounter-ender against anything that isn't Huge. Although that doesn't exactly require DMM to pull off.

Speaking of, if you want a Cleric-based class that uses weather and javelins, have you considered the Stormlord? 10/10 spellcasting progression, javelins become +3 shocking thundering shocking burst weapons, free Fly during any storm (including those you make), and be immune to the movement-hampering effects of storms and high winds, and as a capstone, get a free 1/day Storm of Elemental Fury.

You want to fly around raining death and destruction, it's one heck of a way to do it.

[Petrocorus]

Taking the spontaneous domain casting class variant is tempting, but the rest of the party is pretty low op and two players in particular tend to choose their combat actions.... poorly. :smallfrown:
In this case, the Touch of Healing reserve feat (CC) could be of use. Unlimited healing up to half the target's maximum hp.
Or maybe a dip into Warlock and then Eldritch Disciple (CM) for the Healing Blast. Unlimited healing and with Eldritch glaive (DMagic), even combat healing may be useful.



Domain Spontaneity (???)- Use useless turn undeads to cast spells from one domain
Divine Metamagic (Extend)- Use useless turn undeads to use metamagic, might not be allowed by DM.
Domain Spontaneity with which Domain? And to do what? Being able to cast some spell spontaneously is useful if you know what you will do with those spells, if you have a tactic to use or if you want to combine with some reserve spell, like Dimension Jaunt (CM) for you. It's can be use to fuel Holy Warrior (CC), for instance.

And DMM is usually used with Persist Spell.


Is improved initiative worthwhile if I go knowlage cleric route?

I also can't decide on a weapon. A bundle of javelins, maybe? I'd love to have a short bow (no need to waste a move action reloading) but it's not worth spending a feat for proficiency.
Some PrC gives proficiency with martial weapons. Dragonslayer (Draco), for example. Seeker of Misty Isle (CD) may fit the character concept but require elf unless DM fiat. Fist of Raziel (BoED) is possible but don't really fit the concept. Ruathar (RotW) fir any concept and gives 4 proficiencies.
As PrC go, WindWalker (F&P) would probably fit your concept if 3.0 and setting specific material is allowed. It doesn't gives proficiencies, though.

[Feddlefew]

To be fair, Control Winds at high enough CL is an encounter-ender against anything that isn't Huge. Although that doesn't exactly require DMM to pull off.

Speaking of, if you want a Cleric-based class that uses weather and javelins, have you considered the Stormlord? 10/10 spellcasting progression, javelins become +3 shocking thundering shocking burst weapons, free Fly during any storm (including those you make), and be immune to the movement-hampering effects of storms and high winds, and as a capstone, get a free 1/day Storm of Elemental Fury.

You want to fly around raining death and destruction, it's one heck of a way to do it.

Oooh man. That's so. Very. Tempting.

One of my goals is to not completely overshadow the rest of the party, which is mostly newbies and people who aren't using optimization-fu this campaign.


In this case, the Touch of Healing reserve feat could be of use. Unlimited healing up to half the target's maximum hp.
Where's this from?

[Troacctid]

Touch of Healing is from Complete Champion.

[LudicSavant]

You can totally make this as a Cloistered Cleric / Ruby Knight Vindicator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYW2GmHB5xs#t=25

Combine a Footsteps of the Divine expenditure with the Desert Wind maneuver that lets you attack every enemy you move near in a round to carve up a small army of werewolves while zipping to the position of a sniper at maximum bow range. Or use Sense Weakness and Surge of Fortune to get auto-hit-crits (was very nice with a scythe). And that's at only mid-levels, without using anything cheesy like Persistent Spell or White Raven Tactics abuse.

Seeking out knowledge offers all kinds of potential, too, as there are wonderful Knowledge-based tools for Clerics. Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories, Tome of Worldly Memory, Masterwork Tools, all of that stuff.

[LentilNinja]

Oooh man. That's so. Very. Tempting.

One of my goals is to not completely overshadow the rest of the party, which is mostly newbies and people who aren't using optimization-fu this campaign.

Where's this from?

From what I've seen, Stormload is pretty mediocre but flavourful. This would work well in low op.

If you're prestiging/multiclassing, I'd recommend maybe doing DMM instead. For a Knowledgemancer, theres 7 different Knowledges you need & will want to increase every level. If you're getting at least 7 skill points/level then thats fine but it means you can't invest anywhere else. Cloistered Cleric offers 6 + INT, with that 16 INT you could have being a total for 9 (10 if you're Human) so it works fine in that pure class BUT you won't get any features from it.
If you'd rather not pour everything into every knowledge & use whatever other skills Cloistered Cleric gets I'd suggest swapping to DMM.

Also Reserve feats are awesome and I can't believe I've forgotten them till now.

[Red Fel]

From what I've seen, Stormload is pretty mediocre but flavourful. This would work well in low op.

I wouldn't say mediocre. It has some thoroughly unpleasant feat taxes, and the Patron requirement is brutal for Clerics who don't want to turn all CE (but note that Druids don't have that problem). The class features themselves are not exceptional, inasmuch as they're a bunch of free weapon upgrades, some situational powers (they only function in storms), and a healthy 1/day capstone. That said, it is technically a strict upgrade over Cleric; you keep your BAB, save, and spell progression entirely, but add actual class features.

Let's face it, if you can get a 10/10 spellcasting PrC, there's pretty much no reason not to PrC out of Cleric; the base class does nothing beyond giving you Turn Undead at level 1, and then spell progression. Stormlord does the job nicely.

As an aside, the class couples disgustingly with the Glove of Endless Javelins, which produces +1 javelins made of force; the class then advances them to +3 shocking thundering shocking burst javelins made of force, which is just cruel. It also pairs well with the Greater Dragonmark of Storms, which allows you to cast Control Winds 1/day as an SLA. It's very easy to optimize that into a 3-hour howling tornado with a radius of almost 1500 feet, and Stormlord allows you to not only move unimpeded in the tempest, but to fly in it. Which basically lets you pick off enemies like fish in a massive city-destroying barrel made of hurricane-force winds.

[LentilNinja]

Let's face it, if you can get a 10/10 spellcasting PrC, there's pretty much no reason not to PrC out of Cleric; the base class does nothing beyond giving you Turn Undead at level 1, and then spell progression. Stormlord does the job nicely.

As an aside, the class couples disgustingly with the Glove of Endless Javelins, which produces +1 javelins made of force; the class then advances them to +3 shocking thundering shocking burst javelins made of force, which is just cruel. It also pairs well with the Greater Dragonmark of Storms, which allows you to cast Control Winds 1/day as an SLA. It's very easy to optimize that into a 3-hour howling tornado with a radius of almost 1500 feet, and Stormlord allows you to not only move unimpeded in the tempest, but to fly in it. Which basically lets you pick off enemies like fish in a massive city-destroying barrel made of hurricane-force winds.

Guess you've got me there. I didn't really know much about the class, only took the opinion from something I've read. In OP's case, taking Stormlord would be a good idea but it'd make being a Knowledgemancer tougher (unless they'd rather DMM, which would be the more fun option to do anyway on top of this)

[Red Fel]

Guess you've got me there. I didn't really know much about the class, only took the opinion from something I've read. In OP's case, taking Stormlord would be a good idea but it'd make being a Knowledgemancer tougher (unless they'd rather DMM, which would be the more fun option to do anyway on top of this)

Oh, no, I quite agree. A reasonably optimized Stormlord can end encounters and do serious harm to the party as well; in a low-op game, probably not the best choice. A DMM Cleric with Knowledge Devotion, on the other hand, is quite functional without being overwhelming (although he'll make the melees cry). Cloistered Cleric's reduced BAB becomes irrelevant once you gain access to Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) anyways, light armor is irrelevant when there are so many other ways to improve your defense, and low hit die is irrelevant with all the buffs you can turn out.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Guess you've got me there. I didn't really know much about the class, only took the opinion from something I've read. In OP's case, taking Stormlord would be a good idea but it'd make being a Knowledgemancer tougher (unless they'd rather DMM, which would be the more fun option to do anyway on top of this)

Compared to some of the strongest cleric prestige classes Stormlord is weak. Compared to cleric Stormlord is strong. It is a mater of perspective. Glove of Endless Javelins helped out a lot.

[Feddlefew]

Well, if I put the 11 into Int and 16 into Cha , my char will have 7 skill points per level and 6 turn attempts per day, or 10 turning attempts if I take the extra turning feat. If I could find a way to boost that 11 to a 12, even if it means lowering my strength, I would be a happy player.

As for PRCs, I don't know how long this campaign will last. This character also needs to be useful from level one, so I'm a little weary of multiclassing.

[Troacctid]

Cloistered Cleric 20 is a perfectly fine build. Compared to a standard Cleric, you have more reason to stay in your base class, because you'd be losing skills and bardic knowledge lore by leaving it.

[Petrocorus]

Well, if I put the 11 into Int and 16 into Cha , my char will have 7 skill points per level and 6 turn attempts per day, or 10 turning attempts if I take the extra turning feat. If I could find a way to boost that 11 to a 12, even if it means lowering my strength, I would be a happy player.

11 in Int will give you nothing. You gain a bonus skill point with int 12. The rest is correct.



As for PRCs, I don't know how long this campaign will last. This character also needs to be useful from level one, so I'm a little weary of multiclassing.

I second you should be careful before multiclassing if you take the Knowledge Devotion route, unless you really have a high Int.

[Feddlefew]

Update:

The DM has informed us that he's changing the main enemy of the campaign from evil outsiders to hoards of undead, so I'd be silly not to go the DMM route. I've finalized my characters stats as Str 11, Dex 16, con 9, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 16.

For feats I'm stuck deciding which two of Improved initiative, DMM: Extend, DMM: Empower, DMM: Repeat Spell*, and Extra Turning I should take. DMM: Repeat Spell seems like it'll have great shenanigans potential at first level, but I'd be giving up +4 initiative or +4 turning attempts to use it, and that's only if I can satisfy feat prerequisites with the human bonus feat.

As for weapons, I'm at a loss. I might stick with spears and javelins because they fit my character fluff-wise, but the phrase "undead apocalypse" was being thrown around while we were discussing the campaign setting, so while it's metagamey I'd rather not be using a weapon which can't overcome zombie or skeleton DR.

.... buuuut on the other hand, there really isn't much of a difference between the non-business end of a spear and the business end of a quarterstaff, so I could probably work something out with the DM.


It's like a staff with a knife stuck on the end, okay?

Edit:


11 in Int will give you nothing. You gain a bonus skill point with int 12. The rest is correct.

My character is human, so they get +1 skill points per level. 6 from class + 0 from modifier + 1 from being human = 7 total.

[Petrocorus]

As for weapons, I'm at a loss. I might stick with spears and javelins because they fit my character fluff-wise, but the phrase "undead apocalypse" was being thrown around while we were discussing the campaign setting, so while it's metagamey I'd rather not be using a weapon which can't overcome zombie or skeleton DR.


Heavy mace or Morningstar for skeletons and a reserve sickle for zombies. Mace is the traditional weapon of clerics. Or, rather, it was in previous editions before the War domain. Quarterstaff is fine if you power attack.