Sorcerer Competition I

[atemu1234]

This is a thread highly similar to the Wizard Competition I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414658-Wizard-Competition-I) thread, and uses the same rules.

The only difference is you must build a sorcerer, and have it face off against the winner of that competition. You have until the same time to design the build, and we'll put both of them in a dungeon (which I have already random generated), full of monsters for both of you to fight until you find each other.

Now, some of you may be asking, why would I still do this? Wizards are a more versatile class.

I'll answer; a Wizard's abilities lie in mutability. Yes, one wizard can do the same thing one sorcerer can do, but can change. And that's it's strength, it's why it's better than sorcerer.

But as-is? One sorcerer versus one wizard with a set amount of time is actually a bit of a toss-up. We'll see what the playground can do.

Also, if you have submitted a Wizard build, please don't also submit a Sorcerer build. That'd just make the competition more difficult.

Edit: Repost of the Rules

The Rules:

32 Point-buy
2 Flaws allowed
Variants from Unearthed Arcana allowed, including Taint.
Maximum of three contingency spells- let's face it, it's an unfair spell.
LA Buyoff Allowed.
WBL is 750k gold.
You begin with enough experience to place you halfway between level 20 and level 21.
No epic monsters, items, PRC or advancement.
No Gestalt.
All official books allowed- this includes all first-party materials written by Wizards of the Coast, all endorsed content (Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Dragon Compendium, Oriental Adventures, Etc.) and all online published content.
No Dragon Magazine- No Dragon Magazine content is allowed, save that which is printed in Dragon Compendium, for simplicity's sake.
NO INFINITE LOOPS- This competition isn't an exercise in who can chaingate the most Solars. Exploiting the rules is alright, even for a small amount of cheese. It may come out of your score later on.
No Tailor-made Builds- Regardless of whether or not Lord Draco uses the build in the original thread, this does not give one the right to make a build specifically designed to counter his. I don't think this is as big an issue, but still, it bore saying.
3e content is allowed, but PM me on how it will translate to 3.5.
No levels in other full-casting classes- PrCs that advance spellcasting are alright, going Sorcerer 1/Cleric 19 is not. Again, I don't think this will be an issue.


Those are the rules for just this portion of the competition. A 20th-level statblock for your entry must be PMed to me by May 16th 7:00 GMT -4.

These will be judged in the following categories, 1-5, 1 being unacceptable and 5 being exemplary.


Power: This is the most important category. The build must be powerful, in order to survive in the arena.
Sorcerer-ness: How well this build exemplifies being a "Sorcerer".
Elegance: The rules allow for as much cheese as one wants, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. If a build is just "wrong",it will come out of this score.
Style: Let's face it, we're all just here for the cool builds.

[AvatarVecna]

I volunteer as tribute!

[Darkweave31]

So are we doing the 3 sorcerer, 3 wizard, 1v1 round robin thing I suggested?

[atemu1234]

So are we doing the 3 sorcerer, 3 wizard, 1v1 round robin thing I suggested?

Nope. Two competitions, same rules, winners face off mano v mano. This way, the sorcerer has a chance.

[bjoern]

What degree of BS is allowed?
Is the typical DWK that has 3 extra effective sorcerer levels, and free action access to every spell in the game via Ancestral Relic runestaff on the table?

[atemu1234]

What degree of BS is allowed?
Is the typical DWK that has 3 extra effective sorcerer levels, and free action access to every spell in the game via Ancestral Relic runestaff on the table?

Yes. This is a theoretical optimization thread, after all.

However, same rules, in the OP in the original (linked) thread. Should I repost them in the OP here, as well?

[AvatarVecna]

Yes. This is a theoretical optimization thread, after all.

However, same rules, in the OP in the original (linked) thread. Should I repost them in the OP here, as well?

It would probably be very helpful.

[SinsI]

How are you going to do make them compete - one directly fighting against another, or each trying to solve a set of problems?
I think only the latter can in any way be a fair comparison - it is too easy to make a Sorcerer tailor made for combat, but it is far harder to make him as flexible as a Wizard.

I think what actually needs to be done is to invent a Diverse and Interesting Set of Problems, and not The Best Sorcerer build.

Also, there must be some limits on Time Constraints - things like Contingent Spells (created via the feat, not the spell) require an awful lot of time for their creation (and unlike ordinary magic item creation you must do it yourself - no such things as Dedicated Wrights for them) so are completely impractical despite their apparent overpoweredness.

[atemu1234]

How are you going to do make them compete - one directly fighting against each other, or each trying to solve a set of problems?
I think only the latter can in any way be a fair comparison - it is too easy to make a Sorcerer tailor made for combat, but it is far harder to make him as flexible as a Wizard.

I think what we actually need is to invent a Diverse and Interesting Set of Problems, and not The Best Sorcerer build.

I set up an entire dungeon for them to go through, designed for 20th level characters. Both will be on opposite sides of the dungeon and will have to fight their ways to one another.

[SinsI]

I set up an entire dungeon for them to go through, designed for 20th level characters. Both will be on opposite sides of the dungeon and will have to fight their ways to one another.

Well, that's one of the ways to set up challenges. But since it limits them it gives a big advantage to the Sorcerer.
You should add some more challenges, like:
- feed a whole country for 10 years
- stop enemy invasion
- find cure/stop the spread of a magical disease (created by lvl 9 Divine spell)
- get yourself rid of said magical disease.
- erase from everyone's memory some kind of event from the past, etc.

[Bad Wolf]

If Lord Drako doesn't face off against the wizard, he can claim that sorcerers are still better than wizards because the winner of this competition used a 'weak build.'

[AvatarVecna]

If Lord Drako doesn't face off against the wizard, he can claim that sorcerers are still better than wizards because the winner of this competition used a 'weak build.'

My build cheeses its way into numbers measurable in powers of googol. If he can do better than that, he's explaining his build terribly.

[Threadnaught]

Okay, I'll take a crack at it.

Kobold, Reincarnation cheese for Raptoran Aging Effects, White Dragonspawn, Dragonspawn Abomination, Dragonwrought, Loredrake.
19th level Sorcerer. Effective Sorcerer level 26, for Spells Known and Spells Per Day, kinda useless beyond level 13 with Epic Spellcasting banned.


Okay, this is ridiculous. I'll be that guy who only posts joke builds.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, I'll take a crack at it.

Kobold, Reincarnation cheese for Raptoran Aging Effects, White Dragonspawn, Dragonspawn Abomination, Dragonwrought, Loredrake.
19th level Sorcerer. Effective Sorcerer level 26, for Spells Known and Spells Per Day, kinda useless beyond level 13 with Epic Spellcasting banned.


Okay, this is ridiculous. I'll be that guy who only posts joke builds.
How about a Hatchling Phaerimm Sorcerer-9/Incantatrix-10? LA buyoff shorts him 16k xp (I think...) and with the starting XP value, that leaves him at 19th. Racial casting boosts that to CL 38. All spells are SLA's, so that Wish costs no XP to use. Duplicate Simulacrum; at caster level 38, this means you can take an 76 HD monster and make a simulacrum of it, in a standard action - and don't even need a piece of the beast. Combine with Trap the Soul (also without components) to stock up on pokeballs of useful critters under your absolute command. Great Wyrm Red, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, and Silver dragons all cast as Sorcerer-19's, and that's not tied to hit dice. Alternately, Ice Assasin the opponent, potentially as a standard action, then equip via Wishes. Or just Simulacrum yourself a ton - with nine(and a half...) hit dice, each one casts as a Sorcerer-18, after all. Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation to change out spells as a standard action.

There's no real upper limit to the amount of cheese available. Victory will go to the best optimizer - and that says nothing about the merits of the respective classes, which is what's challenged. Plus, of course, a one-off competition of this nature? Not actually the wizard's strength.

[OldTrees1]

There's no real upper limit to the amount of cheese available. Victory will go to the best optimizer - and that says nothing about the merits of the respective classes, which is what's challenged. Plus, of course, a one-off competition of this nature? Not actually the wizard's strength.

This is a very good point. A theoretically perfect showing at this event would have 2 characters that both are defined as the Limit approaching the arbitrarily imposed ceiling(No Epic and no Infinite). This would speak more to the arbitrary limit than to anything else. Arguably this ceiling is on means and would not even meaningfully inhibit the characters in terms of actual power.

I also question if a Dungeon is the best battle ground. Don't TO Tier 1-2 characters render such things pointless? Conventional dungeon features are pointless against PO Tier 1-2 characters. TO Tier 1-2 characters ought to be able to negate features at the optimization ceiling for dungeon features.

[ben-zayb]

I set up an entire dungeon for them to go through, designed for 20th level characters. Both will be on opposite sides of the dungeon and will have to fight their ways to one another.

This might be a crazy idea, but perhaps the DM can also summon/consult tippy for ideas on how to challenge level 20 TO T1-2s that aren't necessarily just combat-focused. Of course that might mean getting involved with multiplanar-affecting obstacles instead of plain dungeoncrash.

[EugeneVoid]

I'd like to submit my Venerable Incarnate Construct Warforged Monk 1 to this contest. I think his many, many epic level Wizards and Sorcerers, and Psions, Erudites, etc (including Pun-Pun mind you) can take on some of these Sorcerers.

[DeAnno]

There's no real upper limit to the amount of cheese available. Victory will go to the best optimizer - and that says nothing about the merits of the respective classes, which is what's challenged. Plus, of course, a one-off competition of this nature? Not actually the wizard's strength.

Mostly this. I think if you want anything remotely educational you need to set the cheese threshold way way lower.


Well, that's one of the ways to set up challenges. But since it limits them it gives a big advantage to the Sorcerer.
You should add some more challenges, like:
- feed a whole country for 10 years
- stop enemy invasion
- find cure/stop the spread of a magical disease (created by lvl 9 Divine spell)
- get yourself rid of said magical disease.
- erase from everyone's memory some kind of event from the past, etc.

This has its problems as well however, even in a less Cheesy format. In PO at least, a Wizards magic is a tool, and a Sorcerer's magic is a weapon. If the Wizard cannot beat the Sorcerer at fighting (if perhaps not just in PvP, at least at fighting in general), he proves nothing. The Sorcerer is no more going to win a contest of diplomacy, crafting and logistics than a F-22 fighter jet is going to win such a contest. To really prove superiority, the Wizard needs to beat the Sorcerer at his own game, tactical combat.

[atemu1234]

The dungeon will also be altered with typical anti-dungeon bypass mechanisms.

However, the point of the dungeon is to put both in the same position to see which does it better. Both should wipe out the dungeon. Maybe we should make two opposed parties... but I'd need two or more DMs for that.

Also, I still need judges. Especially for legality judging, as I recently discovered I suck at that.

[dextercorvia]

The dungeon will also be altered with typical anti-dungeon bypass mechanisms.

However, the point of the dungeon is to put both in the same position to see which does it better. Both should wipe out the dungeon. Maybe we should make two opposed parties... but I'd need two or more DMs for that.

Also, I still need judges. Especially for legality judging, as I recently discovered I suck at that.

Do you need judges for both thread? I don't mind helping with sheet checking.

[atemu1234]

I need 3 judges for each.

The deadline is tomorrow. No builds from anyone so far.

Do I need to extend the deadline?

[Amphetryon]

I was considering Spellscale Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 for this, but it seems far more. . . Practical Optimization than some of the theorycrafting going on in this thread.

[LordDrako]

Its powerful sorcerer

[OldTrees1]

I was considering Spellscale Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 for this, but it seems far more. . . Practical Optimization than some of the theorycrafting going on in this thread.

You are correct that it pales by orders of magnitude. I still think you should submit it due to the lack of submissions.


Its powerful sorcerer

Yes, but not in comparison to the sorcerers this competition is asking for. This is a TO competition meaning that so many broken things are on the table that an utter novice like me would expect things like the sorcerer to reaching 20th level twice(single use of a thought bottle).

[Afgncaap5]

I'd like to compete, but I doubt I can make deadline even with a few extra days. Plus I'm not really an optimizer so that'd hardly be fair to the intent of the contest (though I might do well with the Sorcererness score.)

[atemu1234]

If I don't get two builds per competition by 7, as well as a couple judges, I'm delaying the deadline a week.

Edit: I still have yet to receive a single build. Deadline is delayed to May 23rd, 7 o'clock at GMT -4.

[AvatarVecna]

Figured I'd come along and bump this to the front page, to make it easier to find for when I need to see the other submitted sorcerer builds. Speaking of which: @atemu1234, has LordDrako submitted his build to you yet?

[atemu1234]

Figured I'd come along and bump this to the front page, to make it easier to find for when I need to see the other submitted sorcerer builds. Speaking of which: @atemu1234, has LordDrako submitted his build to you yet?

He's made a thread and is insisting on (illegal) Dragon Magazine material. Which I'm still not allowing, so there may be an opening for a Sorcerer build, if he doesn't correct.

[Bad Wolf]

And Drako has been banned for some reason, so...

[AvatarVecna]

And Drako has been banned for some reason, so...

Yeah. I mentioned in the "Sorcerer King" thread he started that he was technically restarting a topic that had been mod-closed, and already had an allowed continuation in these competition threads. A little while later, the thread was gone and LD was banned, so as of this moment I'm the only one left to proudly proclaim their sorcerer build to be OP.

[Bad Wolf]

He was just posting his build though.

[AvatarVecna]

He was just posting his build though.

Which is what we have these competition threads for. Furthermore, his build post was titled "Sorcerer is King", contained tons of pictures (which is discouraged), some of which have been called out multiple times as being offensive (definitely against the rules), and ultimately devolved into LordDrako calling all wizard fan-boys fools while doing nothing to continue the debate beyond an ever-continuing game of "Nu-UH!" that walked a thin line between shouting match and flame war...which is, as far as I can tell, exactly what was advised against when the original thread was closed and exactly why the sequel thread was shut down twice.

EDIT: Incidentally, would it be better for me to just post my build here, or for me to PM it to atemu1234?

[dextercorvia]

Which is what we have these competition threads for. Furthermore, his build post was titled "Sorcerer is King", contained tons of pictures (which is discouraged), some of which have been called out multiple times as being offensive (definitely against the rules), and ultimately devolved into LordDrako calling all wizard fan-boys fools while doing nothing to continue the debate beyond an ever-continuing game of "Nu-UH!" that walked a thin line between shouting match and flame war...which is, as far as I can tell, exactly what was advised against when the original thread was closed and exactly why the sequel thread was shut down twice.

EDIT: Incidentally, would it be better for me to just post my build here, or for me to PM it to atemu1234?

Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

As to whether to post or PM, that is your call. I'm still working on mine over in the Wizard Thread. Level 20 builds are so annoying to write up.

[atemu1234]

Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

As to whether to post or PM, that is your call. I'm still working on mine over in the Wizard Thread. Level 20 builds are so annoying to write up.

Well, you have until this saturday. Is it bad to say I'm a little relieved about LordDrako? I got the feeling that if he didn't win the Sorcerer Competition, he'd have just thrown another temper tantrum there as well.

PM me the builds.

[RedMage125]

Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

As to whether to post or PM, that is your call. I'm still working on mine over in the Wizard Thread. Level 20 builds are so annoying to write up.
Especially Wizards! Even at a PO level (I usually operate at a mid-Op level in actual games), making a high level Wizard is a PAIN. Last one I made was level 12 when I joined the game, and it took me several hours over the course of a few days.

Well, you have until this saturday. Is it bad to say I'm a little relieved about LordDrako? I got the feeling that if he didn't win the Sorcerer Competition, he'd have just thrown another temper tantrum there as well.

PM me the builds.

It is not bad. You are most likely correct about the tantrum. I had been PMing him about his behavior. I asked him to stop posting pictures, told him that he was behaving poorly, and that if he were to apologize publicly, perhaps he wouldn't get quite so much vitriol in return.

He responded by calling me "stupid" and a "fool", and that I was just a wizard fan who would "always be tendencious". Which I find amusing, because the word TENDENTIOUS means "partisan or biased heavily". And who on these threads showed more of that than him?

On a separate note, did anyone else think it was weird that a non-English speaker repeatedly used a word that native English speakers either rarely or never use? I'm willing to be at least half of us had to look that word up, lol.

[dextercorvia]

On a separate note, did anyone else think it was weird that a non-English speaker repeatedly used a word that native English speakers either rarely or never use? I'm willing to be at least half of us had to look that word up, lol.

It is a rare english word that is a cognate of a common Portuguese word. If you look up biased in google translate, you get tendenciosa, but if you look up tendenciosa you get tendentious. But, yeah, I did learn something from all these threads, and that is it.

[AvatarVecna]

It is a rare english word that is a cognate of a common Portuguese word. If you look up biased in google translate, you get tendenciosa, but if you look up tendenciosa you get tendentious. But, yeah, I did learn something from all these threads, and that is it.

I learned that the name of the number "10^100" is spelled googol rather than google. The more you know, right?

EDIT: Can't wait for the contest to begin! :smallbiggrin:

[DeAnno]

I think the reason for the lack of response here might be that most people who like to play Sorcs concern themselves with Practical Optimization and not TO tricks? I mean, if we liked to build ridiculous sky sandcastles with TO we would all probably be Wizards.

[AvatarVecna]

I think the reason for the lack of response here might be that most people who like to play Sorcs concern themselves with Practical Optimization and not TO tricks? I mean, if we liked to build ridiculous sky sandcastles with TO we would all probably be Wizards.

On the one hand, my particular build is extremely TO. On the other hand, it works just as well whether Wizard or Sorcerer is the base class.

EDIT: Also, says the guy with the Mailman in his signature.

[Threadnaught]

It is a rare english word that is a cognate of a common Portuguese word. If you look up biased in google translate, you get tendenciosa, but if you look up tendenciosa you get tendentious. But, yeah, I did learn something from all these threads, and that is it.

Yeah, I think, even if I had him send me something in Portuguese, I still wouldn't be able to understand it. Google mangles Portuguese something awful.

[Gün]

Yeah, I think, even if I had him send me something in Portuguese, I still wouldn't be able to understand it. Google mangles Portuguese something awful.

Do you think Google Translate's handling of Portugese is awful? Try using non-European language on Google Translate. It is beyond awful :smallbiggrin:

I have a question about sorcerer only spells? Is there a way to cast them as another type of caster (wizard, druid, cleric etc)

[Aegis013]

I have a question about sorcerer only spells? Is there a way to cast them as another type of caster (wizard, druid, cleric etc)

Wyrm Wizard from Dragon Magic can get them and you could get them via a Drakehelm from the Explorer's Handbook. Extra Spell might, depending on DM interpretation.

There's probably other ways too.

[dextercorvia]

Do you think Google Translate's handling of Portugese is awful? Try using non-European language on Google Translate. It is beyond awful :smallbiggrin:

I have a question about sorcerer only spells? Is there a way to cast them as another type of caster (wizard, druid, cleric etc)

My favorite way is just to put them on a wand (Wings of Cover in a wand chamber mainly). Except for AF and GAF, they are pretty low level. If you want Greater Arcane Fusion badly enough, it might be worth it to dip 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard. (Recaster also works, but is Changeling specific). Arcane Fusion can be pulled off with Miracle.

[One Step Two]

I think the reason for the lack of response here might be that most people who like to play Sorcs concern themselves with Practical Optimization and not TO tricks? I mean, if we liked to build ridiculous sky sandcastles with TO we would all probably be Wizards.

That's because TO with a wizard, while time consuming, is a simpler exercise, their sheer versatility means they can output tricks much easier than other classes. Everyone else needs tenacity and a little bit of creativity.

[Pippin]

My favorite way is just to put them on a wand (Wings of Cover in a wand chamber mainly). Except for AF and GAF, they are pretty low level. If you want Greater Arcane Fusion badly enough, it might be worth it to dip 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard. (Recaster also works, but is Changeling specific). Arcane Fusion can be pulled off with Miracle.
Wouldn't knowing a Wyrm Wizard be enough? If the DM allows, you could just find a few Wyrm Wizards and copy the relevant pages of their spellbooks, then repeat the process until you find all the spells you need... Am I mistaken?

[Gün]

My favorite way is just to put them on a wand (Wings of Cover in a wand chamber mainly). Except for AF and GAF, they are pretty low level. If you want Greater Arcane Fusion badly enough, it might be worth it to dip 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard. (Recaster also works, but is Changeling specific). Arcane Fusion can be pulled off with Miracle.

Right now I am trying to build a npc wizard for my campaign and my goal for him to know every single spell. I start with Wizard/Rainbow Servant base but I don't know what to do from that point :smallfrown:. And domain only spells are still unreachable. Casting from wands doesn't fit my concept though dipping Wyrm Wizard can help me with most inaccessible spell. It is like a blank check for my npc. Thanks

---

Drakehelms look really shiny by the way. It is sad that I cannot put divine spells on them. Though if I understand this right, I can give arcane healing spells to sorcerers and wizard with help of this helm.

[Amphetryon]

Wouldn't knowing a Wyrm Wizard be enough? If the DM allows, you could just find a few Wyrm Wizards and copy the relevant pages of their spellbooks, then repeat the process until you find all the spells you need... Am I mistaken?

Sorcerer. . . Spellbook. Therein lies a difficulty.

[Threadnaught]

I have a question about sorcerer only spells? Is there a way to cast them as another type of caster (wizard, druid, cleric etc)

I Wish I knew of a way to Replicate Spellcasting, but the information I have is Limited. I Wish I could give you less Limited information, but that's Wish-ful thinking, which should be Limited when discussing how to Replicate Spellcasting.
Oh there's my screwdriver, now I can put away my hammer.

[dextercorvia]

Wouldn't knowing a Wyrm Wizard be enough? If the DM allows, you could just find a few Wyrm Wizards and copy the relevant pages of their spellbooks, then repeat the process until you find all the spells you need... Am I mistaken?

Yeah, not really. Without having the Wyrm Wizard class feature you could no more understand a Wizard version of GAF than you could an Arcane Disciple Wizard's version of Miracle, or a Wu Jen's Body Outside Body.


Right now I am trying to build a npc wizard for my campaign and my goal for him to know every single spell. I start with Wizard/Rainbow Servant base but I don't know what to do from that point :smallfrown:. And domain only spells are still unreachable. Casting from wands doesn't fit my concept though dipping Wyrm Wizard can help me with most inaccessible spell. It is like a blank check for my npc. Thanks

---

Drakehelms look really shiny by the way. It is sad that I cannot put divine spells on them. Though if I understand this right, I can give arcane healing spells to sorcerers and wizard with help of this helm.

Have them be an Archivist. Seriously, that is the only Vancian caster that can natively know every spell, since all they need is a Divine scroll of a spell in order to add it to their prayerbook. As an NPC, you don't need to worry about that eating all of their WBL. Oh, Chameleons can pull it off, but you have to use cheese to advance their casting somehow.

There is no way for a Wizard to know every spell in the wizard sense (excepting a generous reading of Extra Spell and an Inifinite feats trick, but that is even more cheese than a Chameleon needs).

[Pippin]

Yeah, not really. Without having the Wyrm Wizard class feature you could no more understand a Wizard version of GAF than you could an Arcane Disciple Wizard's version of Miracle, or a Wu Jen's Body Outside Body.

There is no way for a Wizard to know every spell in the wizard sense (excepting a generous reading of Extra Spell and an Inifinite feats trick, but that is even more cheese than a Chameleon needs).
Aw. Well there must be a way...


Level Loss
A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. [...]


Spell Research (Ex): [...] Starting at 2nd level, select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast. You can add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list as a spell of the same level; [...]

Technically, gaining the knowledge of a new spell is a "special class ability" but adding it to your spellbook is not. So I don't think the spell would magically disappear from your spellbook just because you lose a level of Wyrm Wizard... Would it?

[dextercorvia]

Aw. Well there must be a way...





Technically, gaining the knowledge of a new spell is a "special class ability" but adding it to your spellbook is not. So I don't think the spell would magically disappear from your spellbook just because you lose a level of Wyrm Wizard... Would it?

I would argue that the spell remains scribed in your book, but you have lost the ability to understand it (you lost the ability that allows you to include it on your class spell list and by default, it isn't there. When you level up, you could add a different spell, but then the original one would do you no more good than a soup recipe in your spellbook. Less actually, since you could then cook the soup with an appropriate survival, craft, or profession check. :smallwink:

[Pippin]

I would argue that the spell remains scribed in your book, but you have lost the ability to understand it (you lost the ability that allows you to include it on your class spell list and by default, it isn't there. When you level up, you could add a different spell, but then the original one would do you no more good than a soup recipe in your spellbook. Less actually, since you could then cook the soup with an appropriate survival, craft, or profession check. :smallwink:
That would be closer to a houserule than RAW, though. A wizard is always familiar with his own magical writing, I fail to see how it would matter if the spell he inscribed in his spellbook is recorded in the official wizard spell list of the universe. Actually, the DMG didn't even address what happens to the two bonus spells you gained from your studies (from leveling) if you lose a level. By RAW, you don't lose them.

Which actually makes sense because, though losing a level weakens a character, it doesn't erase the past.

[dextercorvia]

That would be closer to a houserule than RAW, though. A wizard is always familiar with his own magical writing, I fail to see how it would matter if the spell he inscribed in his spellbook is recorded in the official wizard spell list of the universe. Actually, the DMG didn't even address what happens to the two bonus spells you gained from leveling if you lose a level. By RAW, you don't lose them.

Which actually makes sense because, though losing a level weakens a character, it doesn't erase the past.


A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

You can only cast spells if they are on your list. It doesn't matter if you can remember what you wrote. You have lost the ability to cast that spell, along with the Wyrm Wizard ability that added them to your list.

[Pippin]

Hum, that makes sense, unfortunately. Drat, there has to be a loophole somewhere.

*returns to his DnD books*

[One Step Two]

Well guys, I had an idea for the Sorcerer Challenge that didn't work out legally as I would like, and I am otherwise close to being out of time to re-work it. That said, here's one of the "Tricks" to make the Sorcerer's Charisma pretty fierce.

Savage Species has the Ritual of Vitality, letting you spend exp to change your character into a monster. It states you can pay the exp cost in smaller sums over the course of the ritual.

So here's my idea. Using this ritual to transform my level 20 Human sorcerer into a Succubus, I need to pay 66,000 exp. I pay 5,500 exp in 12 portions over the 12 days it takes to complete, using a thought bottle each time to set my exp back to 199500. Thus, after the ritual is complete, I have satisfied the cost of the ritual, but have added the ECL of the monster I am becoming, without losing any actual levels.

This can be used to create something as dangerous as a Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Phrenic etc etc Succubus to stack whatever racial modifiers to Charisma, or any stat for that matter, along with some free HD and other bonuses, to an existing character without losing anything. Of course, leveling up beyond that is a whole other problem.

Enjoy!

[Darkweave31]

You could always make a sorcerer into a wizard with magical training and arcane preparation.

[atemu1234]

Deadline quickly approaching.

[atemu1234]

Sorry that I've been AFK for the last couple days- there was a (thankfully small) family emergency. I'll upload the PMed builds tonight when I get home, unless those that submitted them want to upload their builds themselves. Thanks for your patience with me.

[AvatarVecna]

I've got no problem posting my build myself. I'll go find the write-up and post it. BRB...

EDIT:


http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/i/2013/319/e/7/skitter_by_avgasblomman-d6uawgf.jpgName: Khepri
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Race: Vecna-Blooded, Half-Fey, Lesser Drow
Levels: Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/Vermin Lord 10/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Blackguard 2
Attributes (before adjustments): 8/8/15/13/11/18
Attributes (after adj., no items): 2/6/5/16/16/30
Base Stats: BAB +11/Base Fort +10/Base Ref +4/Base Will +13
Flaws: Feeble; Non-Combatant

ECL
Class Level
Feats
Class Features
Src CL


1
Sorcerer 1
Verminfriend; Extend Spell; Iron Will
Spellcasting
1


2
Sorcerer 2


2


3
Sorcerer 3
Arcane Disciple: Spider (SpC)

3


4
Sorcerer 4


4


5
Sorcerer 5


5


6
Mindbender 1
Versatile Spellcaster

6


7
Vermin Lord 1

Chitin +1; Vermin Servant (1 HD)
7


8
Vermin Lord 2

Blood Drain
7


9
Vermin Lord 3
Power Attack (via DCS)
Spider Hand
8


10
Vermin Lord 4

Chitin +2; Swarm Armor
8


11
Vermin Lord 5

Wings of the Vermin; Vermin Servant (4 HD)
9


12
Vermin Lord 6
Cleave (via DCS)
Spider Legs
9


13
Vermin Lord 7

Chitin +3; Spew Vermin
10


14
Vermin Lord 8

Poison; Pincer Claws
10


15
Vermin Lord 9
Improved Sunder (via DCS)
Vermin Servant 16 HD
11


16
Vermin Lord 10

Chitin +4; Hivemind
12


17
Paladin of Slaughter 1

Aura of Evil; Detect Good; Smite Good 1/day
12


18
Paladin of Slaughter 2
Heighten Spell
Divine Grace; Deadly Touch
12


19
Blackguard 1

Aura of Evil; Detect Good; Poison Use
12


20
Blackguard 2

Dark Blessing; Smite Good 1/day
12


Head: Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Face:
Throat: Amulet of Second Chances (40,000)
Shoulders: Minor Cloak of Displacement (24,000)
Body: Robe of Sacrificial MightCustom #1 (128,000)
Torso:
Arms:
Wrists:
Hands:
Ring:
Ring:
Belt: Belt of Magnificence (200,000)
Feet:

Other:
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500)
(2) Thought Bottle (40,000)
Custom #1: Continuous "Favor of the Martyr" effectSo...here's a few things I've determined (whether by inference or investigation) to be considered fact for the purposes of this competition.

1. To start a hivemind, all members of the hivemind-to-be (which must all be of the same species, must be within 10ft of every other prospective member. However, after the hivemind is formed, there is no rule requiring them to maintain this close proximity to maintain the hivemind. Note: this interpretation has been accepted by atemu1234, but may not be necessary. This interpretation has been accepted by atemu1234.

2. A Vermin Lord can start and end a hivemind as a free action (according to atemu1234, the challenge arbiter).

3. A Vermin Lord can only be a part of a single hivemind at a time, as per RAW. The Vermin Lord counts as a member of the hivemind he started, regardless of their not being part of the same species as the hivemind's base creature.

4. If a spell is cast (and is not Duration: Concentration), the spell's effect will be carried out using the stats the caster possessed at the time of casting the spell; so long as the spell doesn't require the caster's continual focus to maintain, it will continue even if the caster's casting stat is drained too low to cast the spell, if their level is drained too low to cast the spell, if they are killed after the spell has been cast, or if they have somehow ceased to exist. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19263391&postcount=1432) has been determined via Word of Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19263593&postcount=1434).

5. The benefits of joining a hivemind are as follows:

If the hivemind has 50 members (the minimum) the hivemind has an effective Intelligence of 5. For every 20 beyond that (up to 150), the hivemind's Int score increases by 1 (to a total of 10 at 150 individuals). For every 50 individuals beyond 150 (with no upper limit), the hivemind's Int score increases by 1.
For every point of Intelligence bonus the hivemind has, each individual member gains 1 bonus skill point per Hit Die, as well as 1 bonus feat per Hit Die.
For every 50 individuals beyond 150 (with no upper limit), the hivemind gains 1 point of Charisma, which is added to the base creature's Charisma score.
For ever point of Charisma beyond 17, the hivemind gains spellcasting as if they had a level in the sorcerer class; the spells known to the hivemind are chosen when the hivemind is originally formed. Thus, a hivemind of 1000 individuals (be they rats, bats, spiders, or some other manner of creepy-crawlies) could cast spells as if they were a Sorcerer 2 with Charisma 19 (including caster level, bonus spells, spells known, and so on).
Hiveminds are treated as a single creature for the most part in fights, to make most things simpler and more balanced. An exception exists: when it comes to the action economy, each member of the hivemind acts for themselves, although their actions are directed by the hivemind as a whole (or by the hivemind leader if one is present, such as a Vermin Lord). This exception is NOT outright stated, but it is implied both by general 3.5 balance philosophy (50+ creatures sharing one turn isn't very balanced) and one of the specific benefits of the hivemind: if the hivemind only gets a single attack, why is the insight bonus mentioned above specifically called out as applying to every member? It only makes sense if each member can act on their own.Early Entry Tricks
--Vermin Lord: Pretty standard early entry. I use Versatile Spellcaster to gain 4th lvl slots (by using two 3rd lvl slots), and I use Arcane Disciple to gain Giant Vermin as a spell.

--Blackguard: This one's a little more complex, though thankfully less necessary to the build than Vermin Lord. Basically, the hivemind lets me take tons of feats, to the point that I have every feat that I qualify for. Unfortunately, my base Str is pretty low, and the Blackguard prereqs require Str 13. Now, I can make up the difference with spells and items, but I'm not sure if those let me qualify for feats. If that's not the case, then I don't qualify for Blackguard this way.

Infinite Trick

Play, so this first trick is technically an "infinitely repeatable" trick, and is thus illegal for this competition. Nonetheless, since it has relevance beyond this competition, I will mention it: by ending and restarting your hivemind, the hivemind's casting is reset to it's full start-of-day casting capabilities (with all slots available). Furthermore, this allows the hivemind to re-apply the skill points/feats/spells known gained from the hivemind's formation. I personally recommend never ending the hivemind in real-time, but only ever from within a hivemind-cast Time Stop. Due to the ruling Curmudgeon found (link to his post in the rulings section), any spells cast while the hivemind was still up will still be in effect even if the source of the spell (in this case, the hivemind) are rendered incapable of casting the spell, or even if they cease to exist (as the hivemind does, however briefly).

"Finite" Trick

The second trick is technically finite, as it requires expenditure of XP to advance. That being said, the numbers it deals with are absolutely ridiculous, bordering on uncountable. The basic idea is built on the foundation laid out by the Vermin Lord's familiars: a Vermin Lord gains 3 familiars as they level up, 1 with 1 HD, 1 with up to 4 HD, and 1 with up to 16 HD; all of these familiars must be vermin (no duh). If the last two familiars selected are wasp swarms, then the Vermin Lord will have 20000 wasps with them at all times, making for a sizeable base hivemind.

20000 wasps gives us casting as a Sorcerer 382. By casting "Gate" to call Wasp Swarms (costing 1000 XP), you can gain the short-term services of up to 95 wasp swarms. Anyone familiar with the H.I.V.E will realize how permanent that short-term service ends up being once they're integrated into the hivemind. Speaking of which, I should probably mention that: the way I get the other swarms to share the space of all the other swarms at the same time, however briefly, is by casting "Stoneskin" with the benefits of the Extend Spell, Chain Spell, and Reserves of Strength feats using the hivemind casting. This gives each swarm targeted (21 per casting, with 3 casters, meaning all 95 swarms can be covered by 5 castings in 2 rounds) DR 10/adamantine for up to 764 rounds; assuming that all swarms are sharing the same space, this will suffice to protect them from the other 96 swarm's damage for about 11 rounds...but I only need them to share a space for a single round.

Once the new hivemind is formed, it consists of 97 wasp swarms (970,000 wasps), giving the hivemind casting as a Sorcerer 19382. Cast Gate again (with the same "calling wasp swarms" intention) with your new, 5-figure caster level. This calls 4845 swarms. Begin casting Extended Chained Reserves of Strength'd Stoneskin Spells until every swarm is covered, then bring everybody in for another insectile group hug. Once you end and restart the hivemind, you now have 4942 swarms (which grants you casting as a Sorcerer 988,382). I continue doing this (using Time Stops to make sure it's all possible to set up within 24 hours or so of real time). By beginning the whole process with a Thought Bottle (and other Thought Bottles mixed in throughout), by never going below the amoutn of XP necessary to be 20th level, and ending with exactly 5000 XP more than needed to be 20th level, I can cast a total of 65 Gate spells in this method, granting me a somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 billion googol swarms. Exact numbers at this point are slightly less than relevant, but the point is that my caster level, effective Int/Cha, and bonus skill points/feats are all in that same rough ballpark.

Thanks to the "Extra Spell" feat, I know all Sorcerer spells of levels 8 and lower, and my normal spells known will cover most of the really good 9th lvl spells. For those it doesn't cover, I can take Arcane Disciple in any domain possessed by Lolth, which should net me another 2-6 (I don't recall how many domains Lolth has, but it's probably somewhere in that range). I have Skill Focus in every skill, and every "two skills get a bonus" feat; I have proficiency and Weapon Focus with every weapon; I have every metamagic feat, every metamagic reduction feat applied to every metamagic feat, and every item creation feat. Hell, I can spend 1 googol of my bonus feats on Toughness and then spend a eternity or so tanking shots from an army of high-PO Hulking Hurlers.

I'm sure there's tons of feats that are situationally useful, but rarely useful enough to warrant taking. Well, that's no longer a problem! Let's see what I can find that's sufficiently broken. In any case, I'm gonna go find a bunch of feat combos, spell combos, and feat/spell combos that break the game wide open so that I can employ them in the trials to come.To be entered later...To be entered later...

[atemu1234]

I think AvatarVecna's the only one I actually ever saw for the sorcerer competition. I'd like there to be more to this than winning by default (though I do like the build), so does anyone oppose me allowing an additional 2 days for final builds here?

[Amphetryon]

I think AvatarVecna's the only one I actually ever saw for the sorcerer competition. I'd like there to be more to this than winning by default (though I do like the build), so does anyone oppose me allowing an additional 2 days for final builds here?

I don't oppose the extra time, and will possibly submit if tomorrow isn't too strange, but I doubt my creation will have AV's power behind it.

[atemu1234]

I don't oppose the extra time, and will possibly submit if tomorrow isn't too strange, but I doubt my creation will have AV's power behind it.

Well, you never know. We do rate more than power here. Quite frankly, though, I'm curious as to who would win between his and one of the wizard builds.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, you never know. We do rate more than power here. Quite frankly, though, I'm curious as to who would win between his and one of the wizard builds.

Yeah, Khepri's some pretty ridiculous b.s., and while that helps the power and style sections, elegance is almost certainly going to take a big hit, and Sorcerer-ness can definitely be argued: as I mentioned a couple times throughout this whole process (prior to the build reveal), I originally started building this as a Wizard to take down LordDrako's sorcerer, but ended up switching to sorcerer when this competition started; ultimately, this isn't a sorcerer build, and it wouldn't have been a wizard build if I used wizard as the base; it was always a Vermin Lord build, always a hivemind build.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, Khepri's some pretty ridiculous b.s., and while that helps the power and style sections, elegance is almost certainly going to take a big hit, and Sorcerer-ness can definitely be argued: as I mentioned a couple times throughout this whole process (prior to the build reveal), I originally started building this as a Wizard to take down LordDrako's sorcerer, but ended up switching to sorcerer when this competition started; ultimately, this isn't a sorcerer build, and it wouldn't have been a wizard build if I used wizard as the base; it was always a Vermin Lord build, always a hivemind build.

Well, hive mind is giving you Sorcerer spellcasting levels so it is closer to a Sorcerer build than a Wizard build.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, I find that I actually have to edit one of my points in the tricks section; I'm gonna mention the change here before I go back and change it. What it comes down to is that, while my main character can only take Arcane Disciple for Lolth domains (since he already has one to qualify for Vermin Lord), the various swarms in his hivemind have no such limitation. Therefore, as long as I have at least as many swarms as there are gods, the hivemind casting has spells known of every domain ever, as long as there's a deity in existence that has that domain. This probably won't get me all lvl 9 spells, but it will certainly get me enough. Come to think of it, I should probably compile a list of my spells known, or it'll get hard to keep track of what I do and don't know.

Edit:

Of course, this cheesy b.s. results in my vast hivemind being made up of swarms that are each, on top of being infinitely intelligent and charismatic, zealously devoted to different deities. Of course, I just realized that they have to match the deities alignment...

EDIT 2: And, of course, they can only be cast by hivemind members with the right Wis score. Troublesome, but not impossible to work around.

[AvatarVecna]

By the Nine, there's a lot of feats and spells...

[dextercorvia]

By the Nine, there's a lot of feats and spells...

Yeah, before Atemu vetoed my Elf Dweomerkeeper, I had ~35000 feats picked out.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, before Atemu vetoed my Elf Dweomerkeeper, I had ~35000 feats picked out.

For a lot of things, I'm just leaving it off the list because I don't want it enough to take it. And of course, when everything is said and done, I'm gonna have the Toughness feat about a billion googol times over.

[Pippin]

Yeah, before Atemu vetoed my Elf Dweomerkeeper, I had ~35000 feats picked out.
Didn't he forbid infinite loops? Or is this multiple thought bottle cheese? :smallsigh:

[dextercorvia]

Didn't he forbid infinite loops? Or is this multiple thought bottle cheese? :smallsigh:

That's why he vetoed it. I argued that a (non-undead) elf has a finite number of days to cast 3 (in my case) XP free spells per day, and therefore it was not an infinite trick, but roughly a 150,000 use trick. He didn't buy it. That is when I started working with the thought bottle and circle magic instead.

[AvatarVecna]

That's why he vetoed it. I argued that a (non-undead) elf has a finite number of days to cast 3 (in my case) XP free spells per day, and therefore it was not an infinite trick, but roughly a 150,000 use trick. He didn't buy it. That is when I started working with the thought bottle and circle magic instead.

Yeah, my method just uses some standard Thought Bottle Nesting. It's still definitely a finite trick (in that I can only repeat it a few hundred times at most), but it gets me some absolutely ridonkulous numbers.

[Pippin]

That's why he vetoed it. I argued that a (non-undead) elf has a finite number of days to cast 3 (in my case) XP free spells per day, and therefore it was not an infinite trick, but roughly a 150,000 use trick. He didn't buy it. That is when I started working with the thought bottle and circle magic instead.
Yea, I believe there is a spell in BoVD that lets you become younger, so your finite trick could have easily been infinite ^^

[AvatarVecna]

Yea, I believe there is a spell in BoVD that lets you become younger, so your finite trick could have easily been infinite ^^

Also, if your build is capable of rending the cosmos asunder but isn't somehow immune to dying of old age, I think you fail as a God/Batman Wizard. Because I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple ways to be functionally immortal. Maybe someone's made a handbook for it or something... (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996)

[dextercorvia]

Yea, I believe there is a spell in BoVD that lets you become younger, so your finite trick could have easily been infinite ^^

I believe that is an Evil spell, and this was a Good character, so not so much.


Also, if your build is capable of rending the cosmos asunder but isn't somehow immune to dying of old age, I think you fail as a God/Batman Wizard. Because I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple ways to be functionally immortal. Maybe someone's made a handbook for it or something... (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996)

There are ways, but so long as you can't take advantage of them (because they are not part of your build) then your trick isn't infinite.

The feat methods are either 1st level only or Epic, so they were ruled out. The Class methods are ruled out by just not using those classes. The acquired templates are, again, build choices, so those are not available unless they are part of a build. That leaves spells:

1. Steal Life (BoVD)
[evil] spell

2. Kissed By the Ages (Dragon 354)
Dragon magazine, banned from competition

3. Reincarnate (PH, contributed by Viletta Vadim)
Possible if made contingent through miracle or similar. However, we are limited to 3 contingent spells, so this cannot be an infinite loop. The other method involves trusting someone else with your corpse, which is dicey.

4. Last Breath (SC)
See #3

5. Ioulaum's Longevity (LEF, contributed by pinewoodpine)
Epic Spell, banned from competition

6. True Mind Switch (XPH, contributed by Prime32)
As a power I have no RAW legal way of accessing this without items and investing in UPD, ergo it is unavailable by build decisions.

7. Living Zombie Cocktail (CoR)
Would only slow the process, not halt it.

[Pippin]

I believe that is an Evil spell, and this was a Good character, so not so much.
Well it depends, are you exalted good or something? Using an evil spell on a rock that was temporarily transformed into a human might not be that bad, also casting evil spells while being good-aligned has always been a somewhat vague topic for non-clerics.

[OldTrees1]

I believe that is an Evil spell, and this was a Good character, so not so much.

So cast the spell then seek atonement. Since the spell effect is permanent the atonement won't reverse it.

[AvatarVecna]

So cast the spell then seek atonement. Since the spell effect is permanent the atonement won't reverse it.

Or hey, why not just join the dark side and save yourself the disappointed gazes and hackneyed quests the priest will assign you. We have cookies...

[shaikujin]

I believe that is an Evil spell, and this was a Good character, so not so much.



There are ways, but so long as you can't take advantage of them (because they are not part of your build) then your trick isn't infinite.

The feat methods are either 1st level only or Epic, so they were ruled out. The Class methods are ruled out by just not using those classes. The acquired templates are, again, build choices, so those are not available unless they are part of a build. That leaves spells:

1. Steal Life (BoVD)
[evil] spell

2. Kissed By the Ages (Dragon 354)
Dragon magazine, banned from competition

3. Reincarnate (PH, contributed by Viletta Vadim)
Possible if made contingent through miracle or similar. However, we are limited to 3 contingent spells, so this cannot be an infinite loop. The other method involves trusting someone else with your corpse, which is dicey.

4. Last Breath (SC)
See #3

5. Ioulaum's Longevity (LEF, contributed by pinewoodpine)
Epic Spell, banned from competition

6. True Mind Switch (XPH, contributed by Prime32)
As a power I have no RAW legal way of accessing this without items and investing in UPD, ergo it is unavailable by build decisions.

7. Living Zombie Cocktail (CoR)
Would only slow the process, not halt it.



Hope no one minds a Wizard build participant helping the Sorcerer threads :)

2 other methods exists. Timeless plane was already mentioned in post 8 in the handbook.

The other I have found is
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a

Unseelie Fey is 0 LA from Dragon Compendium, and changes the creature's type to Fey.



Options I chose for one of my characters:
I = C2 (advances age categories like elf or another long lived race, gaining solely the positive adjustments to ability scores due to aging)

II = A (Fey can die from disease and disease-like afflictions). Diseases can be cured relatively easily. So gaining immunity isn't really that good because it shuts down nice things like Festering anger and Lycanthropy.

III = B2 (Fey can lose immortality and begin to age as a consequence of an acquired template, poison, disease, spells, or other forces. But Immortality can be restored). Others might probably differ, but I like having an on/off switch. Also gives players or DMs an extra story hook to work into campaigns.

[dextercorvia]

Hope no one minds a Wizard build participant helping the Sorcerer threads :)

2 other methods exists. Timeless plane was already mentioned in post 8 in the handbook.

The other I have found is
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a

Unseelie Fey is 0 LA from Dragon Compendium, and changes the creature's type to Fey.



That's not helping. I'm trying to demonstrate my character can not reasonably expected to be immortal, and therefore my trick isn't infinite. :smallwink: It doesn't matter, I didn't enter him anyway. I just like to be right.

[shaikujin]

That's not helping. I'm trying to demonstrate my character can not reasonably expected to be immortal, and therefore my trick isn't infinite. :smallwink: It doesn't matter, I didn't enter him anyway. I just like to be right.

Doh! My bad... was really trying to help... *hangs head in shame*