Selling your soul

[ImSAMazing]

As a DM to DM, what should you give a player when he makes a deal with "the devil"?

[Townopolis]

An RP reason why they're now taking levels in fiend pact warlock?
One warlock invocation of their choice?
An OOC warning that the devil is definitely, 100%, going to screw the PC over in the long run?

[Easy_Lee]

I'd say that it depends on the nature of the deal.

[DireSickFish]

I'd give them whatever they asked for then monkeys paw it as best I could. Or just straight up hose them when it's time to collect. Make it come early or make them get puppeted by the demon/devil.

[ImSAMazing]

The PC doesn't have to be a warlock... It's just: lets say a PC makes a deal with Orcus...

[Shining Wrath]

Define "the devil".

If it's A devil - a random beastie from the largish "D" section of the monster manual - it depends on the power level of the devil. Selling your soul to a spined devil is just sad.

If it's THE devil - Asmodeus himself - you are a pawn in a very long, large game. And even if you are a 30th level wizard with every possible buff:

He's smarter than you
He's more evil than you
He's been making deals with people like you since before your particular slice of the Prime Material plane was inhabited


The PC loses. Full stop. Even if it doesn't actually cost Asmodeus anything to give you exactly what you want, he'll never do it, because he has a 100% perfect record of always screwing people over and he is not going to break his eternity-long streak for you.

Make sure your PC knows that - in the whole history of the multiverse, no mortal has EVER won selling their soul to Asmodeus. The only way to win is to not play.

[Easy_Lee]

The PC loses. Full stop. Even if it doesn't actually cost Asmodeus anything to give you exactly what you want, he'll never do it, because he has a 100% perfect record of always screwing people over and he is not going to break his eternity-long streak for you.

Make sure your PC knows that - in the whole history of the multiverse, no mortal has EVER won selling their soul to Asmodeus. The only way to win is to not play.

I don't know that this is stated anywhere, else people would stop dealing with these types of beings. Rather, I think it's more the case that evil beings reward those who are useful to them, and cast off those who are useless. That may seem more neutral than evil, but I think the neutral reaction would be to not screw anyone over unnecessarily, else you would destroy others' confidence in you and their willingness to do business.

[Ninja_Prawn]

One warlock invocation of their choice?


I like this. Plus it's modular. Kind of like an alternative to giving them magic items or treasure, and gifts can come with plot hooks attached if necessary.

[ImSAMazing]

Define "the devil".

If it's A devil - a random beastie from the largish "D" section of the monster manual - it depends on the power level of the devil. Selling your soul to a spined devil is just sad.

If it's THE devil - Asmodeus himself - you are a pawn in a very long, large game. And even if you are a 30th level wizard with every possible buff:

He's smarter than you
He's more evil than you
He's been making deals with people like you since before your particular slice of the Prime Material plane was inhabited


The PC loses. Full stop. Even if it doesn't actually cost Asmodeus anything to give you exactly what you want, he'll never do it, because he has a 100% perfect record of always screwing people over and he is not going to break his eternity-long streak for you.

Make sure your PC knows that - in the whole history of the multiverse, no mortal has EVER won selling their soul to Asmodeus. The only way to win is to not play.


I mean Asmodeus yes. But what if he succeeds, if the player found out a secret that nobody, really nobody should know and that secret is saved somewhere Asmodeus can't come...

[Easy_Lee]

Sorry, I'm a bit lost on who is replying to who here. OP, do you have a specific scenario in mind or are you asking a general question?

[Fwiffo86]

somewhere Asmodeus can't come...

No such place exists. He, like everyone else, can travel to any plane he desires. The ramifications of that choice (such as entering a celestial plane) are a different story.

[ImSAMazing]

Sorry, I'm a bit lost on who is replying to who here. OP, do you have a specific scenario in mind or are you asking a general question?

Just a general question. Just thinking about it

[ImSAMazing]

No such place exists. He, like everyone else, can travel to any plane he desires. The ramifications of that choice (such as entering a celestial plane) are a different story.

What if there was? A place guarded by a few good-hearted gods, some angels, let's say a vault in Mount Celestia. With some anti-teleportation magic and extreme strong guards, it would be very hard.

[ImSAMazing]

Sorry, I'm a bit lost on who is replying to who here. OP, do you have a specific scenario in mind or are you asking a general question?

Sorry, updated it.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't know that this is stated anywhere, else people would stop dealing with these types of beings. Rather, I think it's more the case that evil beings reward those who are useful to them, and cast off those who are useless. That may seem more neutral than evil, but I think the neutral reaction would be to not screw anyone over unnecessarily, else you would destroy others' confidence in you and their willingness to do business.

Asmodeus relies on people thinking they are more clever than they actually are. Just because you don't see the loophole in the contract doesn't mean there isn't one he can fling a Pit Fiend through.

[Naanomi]

The Boon system in the DMG is built to handle this sort of thing

[illyrus]

I actually like the way the succubi work for this edition in that they don't make a formal contract for a soul, they just get the target to commit certain evil acts that cause their soul to be damned and it defaults to the succubus.

I'd probably have Asmodeus work in a similar fashion. He breaks up what they wanted into 3-4 tiers, but each one requires a favor (maybe the first is free). Each favor moves their soul closer to being damned. I'd have each tier be quite a jump up from the last in benefits. As a twist while they would probably guess the last tier is what would damn their soul and go right up to that point, it is actually the second to last tier that is enough to damn their soul eternally.

Gives you some leeway for future events.

[MustacheFart]

What if the player is a ginger and thus has no soul to sell?

[Ninja_Prawn]

What if the player is a ginger and thus has no soul to sell?

Asmodeus rolls an investigation check to see if it's a dye job?

[Shining Wrath]

What if the player is a ginger and thus has no soul to sell?

You wait until they consume the soul of someone else and then try to stake a claim on that one. Remember, each freckle represents a devoured soul.

[Kajorma]

I once had a player base his character concept around this.

He was LE, and a gambler (this was a 3.0 game, if it matters).
He had contracted a wizard to create scrolls where people could sign their name, and thus sign their souls over to him.
He would then seek out the desperate and destitute, and offer to solve their problems for the trifling cost of signing the contract.

His plan was to get into a game of cards with the Devil, so that he could gain what he wanted without risking his own soul.

Obviously, I had planned for the Devil to put a twist on it when that time came.

Unfortunately, the game fizzled, and we never got to that final encounter. The rest of the party were ready to murder his character anyway, since he did a poor job of concealing his clearly evil acts.

(Oh and to answer the question, I'd go as far as giving the character gestalt, with the understanding of course that there will be hell to pay...)

[AGow95]

Well the 3.5 supplement Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells has rules for what you should get in exchange for a soul I think, don't know how well it'd convert to 5e though.

[pwykersotz]

Read this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up) from the 3.5 forum.

I particularly like Red Fel's responses. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16961830&postcount=18)

[Ardantis]

Remember that boons are commensurate with level. A warlock invocation may be powerful for a commoner but it sure won't pull for even a moderate level adventurer.

EDIT: That 3.5 thread is awesome!

[Fwiffo86]

What if there was? A place guarded by a few good-hearted gods, some angels, let's say a vault in Mount Celestia. With some anti-teleportation magic and extreme strong guards, it would be very hard.

As I said, he can enter it just like everyone else. What happens immediately after.... that is where your gods and angels come into play. The anti-teleportation magic? Well, our opinions of what entities of that power magnitude can and cannot do is probably different. I say he just ignores it, like most magic (one of the most powerful beings in existence after all). If it were cast by someone of equal power? He'll make a save. Still, he is eternal, and a master tactician. He'll have back up plans, and minions/servants/thralls/etc to do the dirty work for him in the first place.

[Kane0]

What people might sell their souls for:

- Money, wealth, riches
- Skill, talent, ability
- Fame, renown
- Position, Station, title
- Knowledge
- Luck
- Power
- Magic
- Items, possessions
- Undo mistakes
- Fix problems
- Immortality
- An army of the damned

- Warlock levels / invocations
- XP
- Feats
- Proficiencies
- boons
- Spells known/spell slots
- McGuffins

Basically, anything they could wish for.

And its possible to give a player any or all of these, provided you are smart about it.
It's much like twisting a wish. It can be a drawback, it can be a backfire, it could be immediate, it could take forever.
All you have to think of are some simple things:
1) Is the devil capable of what is asked for?
2) How much will the investment be compared to the return?
3) How can they profit the most out of this?
4) How much of a problem will it be if things don't work out?

Ideally you want a win-win for the devil, regardless of what happens to the player.

[Xetheral]

In my cosmology, all souls go to the astral plane where they gradually "descend" at a rate based on the "weight" of their soul. Unless someone (e.g. a servant of your deity, or a devil, or a mortal with a ressurection spell) intervenes, eventually everyone ends up in the abyss, which in general is a much worse place to be than hell.

So as your soul drifts past the various layers of hell, devils will come offering to "save" you from the abyss in exchange for a certain period of indentured service, after which you're released to try and forge whatever sort of existance you can. (The "citizenry" of hell is largely such freed souls.)

Some "crafty" mortals, who figure no god will save their souls, "pre-sell" their souls to specific devils to try and get a better price, including temporal power. That usually takes the form of various supernatural abilities... in 3.5 that was usually a template, but in 5e I'll probably go with invocation-style abilities (it hasn't come up yet).

The ironic part is that in both cases your soul going to hell is part of the *benefit* of selling it, not the cost.

[Kane0]

Hmm... Interesting...

[Dexam]

As a DM to DM, what should you give a player when he makes a deal with "the devil"?

You mean, other than 'a hard time'?

It all depends on supply and demand market forces. Is it is buyer's market? Or a seller's market?

Also, in what condition is the soul? The soul of a high ranking good-aligned Cleric or Paladin is going to be worth a lot more to a devil than that of some no-name wandering murderhobo.

And nothing's going to ruin a player's plans like them going "I want to sell my soul to Asmodeus for {insert desire here}", and Asmodeus just smiling politely and saying "You can't sell me what's already mine..." :smallamused:

[Submortimer]

I don't know that this is stated anywhere, else people would stop dealing with these types of beings. Rather, I think it's more the case that evil beings reward those who are useful to them, and cast off those who are useless. That may seem more neutral than evil, but I think the neutral reaction would be to not screw anyone over unnecessarily, else you would destroy others' confidence in you and their willingness to do business.

It doesn't, but humans (in particular) are short sighted. They may also not see the full value of their soul (see: bedazzled), view it as a sacrifice to help someone they love (see: Madoka Magica), or view it as a way to save something/someone they care about (see: every season of Supernatural).

Everyone KNOWS its a bad idea to make a deal with the devil. the devil just makes the benefits good enough in the short term that people will get desperate enough to risk it.

[Inevitability]

I agree with the above posters. We're talking devils here; the most machiavellian schemers in the multiverse. You may make a deal with them, you may even get something out of it, but in the end? In the end you're always just another pawn.

As for what you'd get... I think it would be wonderfully evil if the 'reward' actually encourages you to take risks, decreasing the time your soul has before ending up in hell.

Alternatively, I'd allow a less corporeal offer, such as the soul of another damned one, the answer to a single question, or the knowledge how you will die.

[Shining Wrath]

It must never be forgotten that Asmodeus, in the words of the 2nd edition monster manual, represents "absolute evil". It's not just that he wants your soul; he wants your mortal life, and the lives of every other mortal, to be as bad as possible. It's not debatable; it's what "absolute evil" means. He's just playing a very long game, meticulously planned, where he will let you be a little less miserable for a little while so long as the sum total of the world's misery increases.

If you are winning, it's because someone else is losing, and more than you're winning.

[Easy_Lee]

"Asmodeus is devoted to oppression and might through subversive action. He imposes strict rules and harsh punishments on his followers. The cult of Asmodeus urges its adherents to seek power over others, to repay evil with further evil (an eye for an eye), to exploit kindness for personal gain, and to show no compassion for the weak and downtrodden. All done in the most legal possible manner of course, and never overtly."

It's a power structure thing. His followers are beneath him, subject to his will, but have others beneath them. Since it's all evil, that basically means that one would be hard pressed to find a power structure where one had more control over those beneath them. Even if you had to serve Asmodeus, that's not so different from anyone else in FR, since they all serve or are manipulated by some god or other.

Basically, it'd be like working for a corrupt but completely lawful and very powerful organization. Only one that lets you have slaves.

[Shining Wrath]

"Asmodeus is devoted to oppression and might through subversive action. He imposes strict rules and harsh punishments on his followers. The cult of Asmodeus urges its adherents to seek power over others, to repay evil with further evil (an eye for an eye), to exploit kindness for personal gain, and to show no compassion for the weak and downtrodden. All done in the most legal possible manner of course, and never overtly."

It's a power structure thing. His followers are beneath him, subject to his will, but have others beneath them. Since it's all evil, that basically means that one would be hard pressed to find a power structure where one had more control over those beneath them. Even if you had to serve Asmodeus, that's not so different from anyone else in FR, since they all serve or are manipulated by some god or other.

Basically, it'd be like working for a corrupt but completely lawful and very powerful organization. Only one that lets you have slaves.

With the proviso that the guy at the top, and his direct reports, hate everyone else in the universe.

[Easy_Lee]

With the proviso that the guy at the top, and his direct reports, hate everyone else in the universe.

Isn't that true of everyone in his power structure, though? I was under the impression that this was one of the defining "evil" traits.

[darkscizor]

Let's say that you can't sell your soul all at once. You instead enter into a contract with the devil/demon/Devil in question and sign a contract, allowing you to use magical powers. This could be a background story for some warlock, but I can see this happening with some PC that just doesn't want to take a few levels in anything other than fighter/bard/whatever. This would be on solution-

(You gain these at the level specified, and can choose two if you "sell your soul" after the required level.

Abilities 1: These may harm the user upon use, but don't require any soul-siphoning. Choose one at 1st level.

-You gain the fire bolt cantrip. This damages you by 1 HP whenever cast.
-You gain the control flames cantrip. This damages you by 1 HP when cast.
-You select one type of weapon. You gain proficiency with that weapon, and a magical version of that weapon appears for you (overcomes magical resistances). As a bonus action while attacking with that weapon, you can deal an additional damage die equal to the damage diw of the weapon, dealing fire damage to the target on a successful hit, at the cost of 1d4 of your own health.
-You gain the ranger class's Favored Enemy class feature against one type of humanoid.
-You gain a +2 to your proficiency bonus regarding one skill or tool proficiency.

Abilities 2:: These siphon the user's soul and life energy. You can use any of these at will, starting at level eight. These can be used up to five times (as a bonus action each time) before your soul belongs to the devil in question and you cannot be resurrected by any means, even Wish. Use these seven times and you instantly die. Nothing can reverse this death, not even a casting of Wish.

-You regain 2d4 HP times your current level.
-You gain an extra attack for your next turn. This stacks with a class's multiattack features.
-You cast the Fireball spell at its lowest spell level.
-You cast the Polymorph spell at its lowest level.

[MustacheFart]

To me selling your soul is such a big deal that I would only allow it if I were planning to make the repercussions a large part of the campaign's story. I then would only do that if the party was on board for it.

That said, I have been looking for a hook for a one-shot I want to run for a buddy who's never played 5th Ed before. This might be just what I need.

[Shining Wrath]

Isn't that true of everyone in his power structure, though? I was under the impression that this was one of the defining "evil" traits.

Some evil people just don't care. They'll kill a child without blinking if the kid gets in their way, without remorse, but they won't go out of their way to hurt a kid.

Asmodeus wants to kill kids in front of their parents and taunt the parents as he does it. But he's smart, and playing a very long term game. However, he's more evil than the "other people just don't matter" evil.

And of course, he's got to worry about the other Powers. Get too over-the-top and someone like Heironeous will show up and raise a stink.

[Kantaki]

The consequences of a Soul-Pact with a denizen of the lower planes? Well obviously your patron will grant you powers and abilitys. Those powers will usually fit the arch-fiends domain of power. Most patrons will grant new and stronger powers as time passes and you further their cause. If you are eager to gain power at a faster rate you can offer your patron an appropriate sacrifice like an servant of a opposing deity. As your pact-granted powers increase your patrons grasp on your soul increases as well until it is strong enough to claim you even alive. Should you die while the pact is still intact your soul will be claimed as well. To break the pact you have to find a place that relates to your patrons domain and declare out of your free will and conviction that the pact is broken. But be prepared! From this moment the fiend has a full day to unleash anything at his disposal to claim what you owe them. On more thing you should remember is that the pact will leave a mark on you that the servants of light will use to identify you as what you are.
-From Asfaloth Blacksouls The darkest Arts: On Soulpacts

Sorry that got more of a ingame text than planned but the basic idea should hopefully be clear. Let the players do what they wants but make sure they know the consequences.

[Prophet_of_Io]

DMs discretion. I tend to be on the harder side of selling your soul to a/the Devil. I've actually had a bit too much experience in this scenario. I let my players make the choices they want but as soon as they decide to bring the devil into things I make sure to make a note of it. It depends on what the player wants but a soul is a powerful thing to me. It's sale shouldn't be taken lightly. As I look at it, mortals (even ones of great renown) aren't often followed by most outsiders. No one knows/cares who you are unless you a)worship them in some way, b)actively meddle in their affairs on more than one occasion or c)make contact with them. In this case it's C and most Devils are readily willing to make a bargain. It depends on what your player wants but a soul isn't worth unlimited cosmic power. If they have something simple and within the fiend in questions capabilities they'll gladly make a deal. But now they have a direct medium to the player. They can scry on him/her at all hours even when it should normally be impossible. If the player ever dies, even for a moment, when they are risen (since they needed the souls permission) they lose a little bit more of their own will since the fiend had time to tamper with them. And finally I make damn sure that fiend starts taking an active interest in the party. After all, the sooner the player dies, the sooner they get to reap the reward.

That's my approach anyway.

[Easy_Lee]

Some evil people just don't care. They'll kill a child without blinking if the kid gets in their way, without remorse, but they won't go out of their way to hurt a kid.

Nah, that's neutral you're describing. Neutral is to do whatever is most beneficial at the time, regardless of morals. Evil is to take pleasure in immoral behavior.

[JNAProductions]

Killing children for personal gain is evil. It doesn't matter if you don't care or even if you regret it, it's evil.

[Easy_Lee]

Killing children for personal gain is evil. It doesn't matter if you don't care or even if you regret it, it's evil.

An evil act, but the reasoning behind it will tell us the person's initial alignment. Of course, d&d seems to work like star wars with evil acts corrupting a person whether they want them to or not, so do what you think is best. All I'm saying is that I don't think that Asmodeus is automatically more evil than anyone can be, he's just better at it. If you're used to serving evil overlords, he's par for the course.

[Shining Wrath]

Nah, that's neutral you're describing. Neutral is to do whatever is most beneficial at the time, regardless of morals. Evil is to take pleasure in immoral behavior.

From PHB:

"Neutral evil is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms".

However, it's not worth arguing about any further. Doing so would make me Neutral Annoying in alignment.