Making the Most of Dual Wield

[Easy_Lee]

As we all know, dual wield is fine at early levels but starts to struggle late. Many houserule dual wield, including things ranging from an extra attack, swinging both weapons for opportunity attacks, or simply adding +1 STR or DEX to the feat.

With that in mind, I thought of a few possible builds that could work well for dual wielding, regardless of whether you house rule. The idea is for these builds to function better with dual wield than they would with a different style.

Design criteria:

Fighter 20 is a no go, because 4 attacks per attack action is the exact point where dual wield cannot stand up to polearm masters, great weapon fighters, or some duelists for usefulness.
Action and bonus action should usually be used to attack. If these options exist, they should assist with or enable one to attack (cunning action is a good option), or be used mostly in situations where one would not be attacking anyway (thief use an object). Eldritch Knight and valor bard both have very compelling action and bonus action choices outside of attacking, and so should be avoided. Warlock, ranger, and arcane trickster also have compelling actions as well as bonus actions, and so may often be better served with other feats and fighting styles.
Find features which enhance attacks, such as extra attack, rage, and sneak attack.
Avoid MADness so as to afford feats and stats at reasonable levels. SAD is preferred.
Limit multiclassing to only what is necessary. High level class features are generally preferred over low level features and feats.


Builds

Two variants:
Thief 4 - > champion 7 - > thief 13
Fighter 1 - > rogue 2 - > champion 7 - >thief 13

Feats: Dual Wielder, Resilient(CON) or Resilient(DEX)/Athlete if needed for odd scores, Medium Armor Master if desired, Alert if desired
Attributes: Max DEX, 14 CON, 14 STR
Attribute Variant: Max STR, 14 CON, 14 DEX
Expertise: athletics, stealth, your choice
FS: TWF

This build gets most of the best rogue features and several of the best fighter features. Action surge is used if we miss our sneak attack or really want to kill the target. Champion is chosen for remarkable athlete and the potential to crit more often with sneak attack die. Increase crit range also works very well with advantage. The build ends with 7d6 sneak attack and makes 3 attacks per round when the bonus is used. AC quickly rises to 18 and stays there, sans magic. Alert can be taken in combination with high DEX and remarkable athlete to produce a +13 initiative mod. The thief 13, our capstone, lets us use any magic item.

Both builds get many ASIs, so stats should not be a problem.

The max strength variant opens up a wider variety of weapons (will still need one weapon to be Finesse for sneak attack) and can out-athlete anyone with a total +17 to athletics checks and reliable talent. This one would want to use medium armor: a breastplate is sufficient, though medium armor master with half plate is +2AC. AC will be 17-19 depending on medium armor master. Initiative mod will be +5 unless alert is taken, which is still not bad at all.

Damage will be a little low until extra attack comes online, after which it's a fairly steady progression. Since use an object may require a free hand, keeping an eye out for some sort of wrist blade may be wise. Both variants can create advantage by shoving an opponent prone. Climbing on top of huge targets may not only be wise, but will be easy with our fast climb from thief and athletics expertise.

1.1(3d8+7d6)+15=56.8DPR, a little higher if we play a half orc, and will be higher in practice due to advantage-hunting.

11 levels of fighter and 9 of rogue could also be chosen, which would be especially effective if one used the Assassin archetype. However, some rogue features will be missed.


Very few classes are more solid from 1-6 than a fighter. And barbarian has numerous features from 1-14, such as raging and the totem features, which we very much will appreciate.

Champion 6 - > Totem Barbarian 14
Feats: Dual Wielder, Resilient or athlete if needes
Attributes: Max DEX, Max CON
FS: TWF

Totem is chosen because the frenzy bonus attack is redundant.

AC = 10 + DEX + CON fight naked and still have 21AC once stats are maxed (around level 14-18). Use rapiers or similar and don't attack recklessly. Take the wolf totem feature to grant advantage for all melee allies' attacks, yielding very high contributed DPR.

We have a high initiative boost and advantage on initiative checks. This means that we usually act first, getting into position for our allies to benefit from wolf totem.

Consider taking sentinel to punish enemies who attack your melee allies; you want the focus to be on you. The wolf ability at barbarian 14 can enhance your damage by letting you automatically shove targets prone as a bonus action (no save), though this will reduce your number of attacks and may not be needed. Another totem may be chosen for this level.

You gain rage bonus on all attacks while raging. With 14 levels of barbarian and there attacks per round, that's a lot of rage damage. Action surge is saved for moments where burst is needed.

1.1*(3d8)+15+3*rage bonus damage per round, higher with advantage (better chance to crit) and slightly higher on a half orc (0.1*1d8).

Do you have any build ideas? I may expand the OP to include more builds on request.

[Mandragola]

It seems to me that the best way to get heavy damage from DW is with stuff that gives extra damage on every hit you do. So you should be looking at things like rage damage and improved divine smite - plus maybe spells like divine favour. I prefer divine favour to hunter's mark/hex for this kind of build because you don't have to keep using bonus actions to move it around, and you can cast it before seeing the enemy. It's obviously incompatible with being a barbarian though.

One way to go about things is to start out as a dual-wielder and do that for your whole career. Another is to graduate to DW only once you've got something like imp divine smite.

So one option would be to make a half-orc paladin and play up to level 12 - taking the DW feat at that point. Until then you have the AC fighting style and a shield, and you basically tank. Then at lvl 13 you take a level in fighter and you go to town. Being a half-orc gives you the option, if you have the dex, of also MCing in some rogue levels to get assassinate. A half-orc paladin 12 fighter 3 assassin 5 could do appalling amounts of damage on a surprise round, if it uses action surge and blows a lot of smite dice.

The other way would be to play a variant human. Fighter 1 at 1st level with the feat and fighting style, and paladin thereafter. You delay paladin stuff by a level but actually that's not too painful really. Fighters get probably better saves and skills on the whole and the only "bad" level will be 5 when everyone else has their 2nd attack and you don't. Dual wield is excellent at low levels so you'll always feel like you're doing a bunch of damage. After level 12 you've got options: get level 3 fighter for an archetype and action surge, get paladin 12 for the ASI, or switch to something else entirely.

[calebrus]

Our table has a couple of house rules that make dual wielding workable by absolutely anyone, and people with the feat or the style get even better.

First, the feat and the style have been swapped a bit, and an extra attack is granted by the off hand at level 11.
- Dual Wielder feat now offers +1 AC, the ability to draw two weapons, and adds mod to damage.
- Two Weapon Fighting style now grants the ability to use non-light weapons.
- At 11th level, if you have the Extra Attack feature, the bonus action attack granted for using two weapons increases to two attacks (and subsequently, Monks using Martial Arts have their bonus attack and Flurry increased by one at level 11 as well).

These house rules create a situation where:
1) Anyone can dual wield out of the box, just like in the PHB.
2) Anyone can duel wield effectively with the feat.
3) Fighters and Rangers are the only ones that can dual wield with better weapons.
4) If you have Extra Attack, dual wielding doesn't lag behind significantly at later levels anymore.

It works really well, with no special builds needed. Anyone can do it effectively, and specialists are just as good as heavy weapon users (or rather, the difference is largely negligible).

[Easy_Lee]

I've seen the extra attack at 11+ solution before. I know that a lot of groups like it because it's simple and effective. The only trouble I have with it is that it makes the math go a bit in favor of TWF over great weapon, which bothers me since I believe that GWF ought to be the highest.

There are other troubles with dual wield which some houserule. It benefits less from haste than other styles, benefits considerably less from spells like magic weapon, and requires two magic weapons instead of one to be fully effective.

My personal preference is the following:
1) Dual wielder update - can swing both weapons in place of one attack once per turn, making a single roll and using only the higher enhancement bonus and attribute modifier, but cannot make a bonus action attack in the same turn. This actually solves all of the above problems, lets rogues benefit more from dual wield, and gives two Weapon users a really nice opportunity attack.
2) Possible to find "twinned" magical weapons: two identical weapons which share the same or a twinned enchantment, one attunement attunes to both. Treat the pair as a single weapon for the purpose of spells. This solves all of the above issues sans haste.

[calebrus]

I've seen the extra attack at 11+ solution before. I know that a lot of groups like it because it's simple and effective. The only trouble I have with it is that it makes the math go a bit in favor of TWF over great weapon, which bothers me since I believe that GWF ought to be the highest.

Personally, I'm fine with that. After all, the TWFer burns his bonus action every single round no matter what if he wants to compete with the GWFer, who doesn't have to burn his bonus.
I can see why you might feel that way, but I just don't see it as an issue.

[DireSickFish]

Well on hit damage per hit is what you're going to want to bump up dual wielding as a damage type. Vanilla the rogue gets the most benefit out of any class of dual wielding as they want the second attack to give them the best odds of getting sneak attack in every round.

Other than that I actually think a strength based dual wielder has the advantage over dex based because he has the versatility of picking up a -lot- more weapons to use. So it becomes more advantages the more Monty Haul your camping gets. Going strength means you need both heavy armor AND the dual wielding feat. Variant Humans have a clear advantage here as they can start with the feat.

I think a paladin is a good contender for strength based dual wielding. At lvl11 he gets a bonus 1d8 per hit that will help him keep up with other damage types. He gets the Heavy Armor Proff. Start V Human or take the dual wielding feat at lvl 4 (which is a big slow down). They can also now smite more in a round than other paladins so they are given an advantage over other fighting styles. Use Divine favor or hunters mark (with vengeance pally) to get boosted damage output.

[Easy_Lee]

Trouble is that Paladins and the like may be better off with polearm mastery, provided that they can find a polearm. I considered a strength version of the Barbarian build above, but removed it for that reason.

[Jakinbandw]

Personally, I'm fine with that. After all, the TWFer burns his bonus action every single round no matter what if he wants to compete with the GWFer, who doesn't have to burn his bonus.
I can see why you might feel that way, but I just don't see it as an issue.

Out of curiosity, do you give the Monk the second bonus attack for free when they hit lvl 11 and allow them to flurry for 3?

[DireSickFish]

Trouble is that Paladins and the like may be better off with polearm mastery, provided that they can find a polearm. I considered a strength version of the Barbarian build above, but removed it for that reason.

It has a few advantages over polearm master. The versatility in weapon choice as I mentioned before, and a slightly higher AC. Granted polearm has it's own set of sweet benefits that seem to outweigh it.

I just know with my DM I'm more likely to find two magic longswords than a magic halberd.

[calebrus]

Out of curiosity, do you give the Monk the second bonus attack for free when they hit lvl 11 and allow them to flurry for 3?

For any character that has Extra Attack, at 11th level any bonus action attack via TWF/MA/Flurry increases the number of attacks by one. TWF becomes 2/per, MA becomes 2/per, Flurry becomes 3/per.
If the character does not have Extra Attack (because he multiclassed or plays a class that doesn't grant it), the bonus attacks granted by those features remain at the number in the PHB.

edit:
Yes, this gives monks just as many attacks as a fighter, plus one when using Flurry. But at least half of them (or more) must be melee attacks and do not apply any possible magic modifier, because they have to be made unarmed. So it's not as huge of a bonus as it looks.
If you wanted to try something similar, but wanted it slight less pronounced, you could just as easily only apply the increased bonus attacks on TWF (to 2) and Flurry (to 3), leaving MA alone (at 1).

[D.U.P.A.]

In dnd, it was Rangers who were the best dual wielders, going dual wield I would go ranger too. They get only one extra attack, making that offhand attack still usable. Then they can get that horde breaker feature which adds even more attack without using any additional action or bonus. And their combat spells like hunter's mark are mostly vocal, which is important when you have all hands occupied with weapons, even though casting it may hinder your offhand for the first round (as it uses your bonus action), but if you manage to mantain concentration you can do a considerable damage.

Paladins are not meant to dual wield, they do not even have the fighting style, also with paladin you tend to play more defencively, most of paladins use shield, to prevent breaking concentration of important spells (which are more powerful than ranger's) and having greater ability to heal is better to be one of last man standing.

And of course if playing Rogue, you usually want to dual wield if going into melee, especially at high levels, where sneak attack get considerable amount of damage dice (hah right the opposite of martial builds).

[Kryx]

I've seen the extra attack at 11+ solution before. I know that a lot of groups like it because it's simple and effective. The only trouble I have with it is that it makes the math go a bit in favor of TWF over great weapon, which bothers me since I believe that GWF ought to be the highest.
From the numbers that I've run this isn't the case. I can rerun them with amother bonus at 11.

[Easy_Lee]

From the numbers that I've run this isn't the case. I can rerun them with amother bonus at 11.

It depends on how often one is able to make use of great weapon master. Level 11 becomes the strongest case for dual wield, 5 attacks per round to a great weapon master's 3 or 4, and +1 AC in addition. That's generally a bit higher, more consistent damage. Plus, it's more attacks, meaning more targets, more static bonuses from poison or magic weapons or whatnot, and more of them can be turned into shoves to grant advantage. Consider a rogue 9 / fighter 11 and you will see why I'm hesitant with that houserule.

[numerek]

Thief 4 - > champion 7 - > thief 13
Fighter 1 - > rogue 2 - > champion 7 - >thief 13

Any melee rogue that wants sneak attack damage will want to wield two weapons because you can't sneak attack with a pole arm or great weapon, at least until they come out with more finesse weapons.



Champion 6 - > Totem Barbarian 14

I believe you designed this build thinking you can get rage bonus damage attacking using your dexterity ability score
"...melee weapon attack using strength you gain a bonus...Rage Damage..."
Otherwise this build requires rolling very well and is still inferior to polearm master, with a quarterstaff + shield you deal more damage with dueling and have better ac that two weapon fighting

It is really only rogues because their key ability is tied to finesse weapons which means that can't take great weapon master or polearm master and sneak attack, but even then crossbow expert (which could be debated) beats it since it doesn't need a fighting style, although archery is very nice, and you can add sharpshooter after that for after you get your first hit for the turn or maybe even your first attack if they have low enough ac.

Or if you are not playing with the optional feat system.

If rogues can't get sneak attack active(which I know its easy but it has happened) their damage is garbage, and they get the least number of attacks which means the highest chance for 0 damage. as mentioned they at the very least get the least benefit from the most damaging feats.

Though this could easily change when they come out with a thug archetype, it could get extra attack and be able to sneak attack with simple blugeoning weapons, hello great club FTW.

[Submortimer]

Fighter 20 is a no go, because 4 attacks per attack action is the exact point where dual wield cannot stand up to polearm masters, great weapon fighters, or some duelists for usefulness.


I'm kinda confused by this. IMO, a 20 champion ought to be one of the best TWF builds there is, focused around sustained damage and crit fishing. More reliable stiking than the GWF, who's taking a -5 to his attacks to boost his damage, and only lags behind the polearm master by 2 points AVG when using all 5 attacks in a round. Not only that, but he'll have AC equal to Full plate plus shield (Half plate + High dex + Medium Armor Master + Dual Wielding + Defensive or Mariner fighting style).

[Kryx]

It depends on how often one is able to make use of great weapon master. Level 11 becomes the strongest case for dual wield, 5 attacks per round to a great weapon master's 3 or 4, and +1 AC in addition. That's generally a bit higher, more consistent damage. Plus, it's more attacks, meaning more targets, more static bonuses from poison or magic weapons or whatnot, and more of them can be turned into shoves to grant advantage. Consider a rogue 9 / fighter 11 and you will see why I'm hesitant with that houserule.
From my numbers the GWF does about 37-51% more damage than a TWF.

If I am to add in the second bonus attack the 1-10 numbers are still quite high, but the 11+ numbers change from 37% increase to about 9% increase for GWM.

Numbers can be seen https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1301284741

[Mandragola]

I think the problem is that polearm master is just too good. It's too good using a staff one-handed with duelist and it's too good using a two-hander with GWM and raging. It's too good with on-hit buffs like imp divine smite, or with weapon buffs like elemental weapon or lifedrinker. Also nothing else gives you a free hit against anyone who just happens to move near you, so it further ups your dpr by giving you a pretty reliable way to use your reaction.

Also it's stupid. Nobody would spin a halberd backwards and hit people with the wrong end. It's not at all what they are designed for and they wouldn't be good for it. Plus the other guy would just grab the blunt end and start stabbing you if you did this. The whole point of a polearm is to keep the other guy far away by putting a point in his face. Oh, and you'd probably chop up your friends, or yourself, with the sharp end when you spin it around. Finally, people invented swords for a reason. They wouldn't have bothered if fighting with a stick and a shield was better.

So my argument would be to fix dual wield by banning polearm master, or at least removing the thing that lets you hit people with the blunt end. It's broken and stupid.

[Kryx]

it's too good using a two-hander with GWM and raging.
Polearm by itself actually sucks in comparison to plain GWM.
While Frezying Plain GWM actually does ~10-24% more damage than Polearm + GWM until 16 at which point it is tied.
While not Frenzying P+GWM is behind by about 15% until 7. It moved ahead with a 10% increase in damage from 8-15 and a 20% increase in damage from 16+ in comparison to pain GWM.
Numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1254868251).

I don't think it's too good.

That said I don't allow the 1 handed quarterstaff interpretation and also think the "back end" fluff is horrible. The fluff should be hitting it with the side of the attacking end or the "backend" attack should be made at 5ft instead of at reach.


But that's a bit off topic. Based on my earlier numbers I think another bonus attack at 11 is the best choice for TWF.

[Mandragola]

Fair enough. I agonised over whether to go with polearm mastery or GWM for my human paladin and picked GWM in the end. It's been pretty good so far I must say. At low levels (just hit 5th) I've run into a lot of things that either had a small number of hp - meaning I got a lot of bonus attacks when they died, or that were zombies, meaning it made sense to "power attack" them. With the option of smiting too, and giving myself advantage against bosses due to channel divinity, it's felt pretty effective.

I've seriously fought a lot of zombies! Even used divine sense quite often to determine that bodies lying around the place were/were not zombies. Power attacking prone zombies with a maul is fun. Splat! We really need to hunt down our recurring baddy necromancer because this is getting silly.

I probably agree with the extra bonus attack at level 11 for dual wield, for classes with the extra attack feature - though to be honest I'm not sure it's really necessary. Pure dpr is not always as important as it looks, as there are lots of things that don't have enough hp (either because they are soft or badly hurt) to warrant using GWM on, but against which an extra attack through dual wield could be really useful.

[Easy_Lee]

From my numbers the GWF does about 37-51% more damage than a TWF.

If I am to add in the second bonus attack the 1-10 numbers are still quite high, but the 11+ numbers change from 37% increase to about 9% increase for GWM.

Numbers can be seen https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1301284741

I took a look at the numbers and they seem very low for almost everyone involved, and extremely high for certain classes and builds. I don't think that you're taking certain things into account, such as a TWF character being able to shove a target prone with one attack to grant advantage on the others, something that makes sense to do if you need to roll better than a 10. There's also opportunity attacks, the primary argument against archery, which don't seem to be taken into account.

The benefit of GWM is difficult to calculate, but a champion GWM at least is getting it 50% of the time at 11. He makes 3.5 attacks. A dual wielder makes 4 attacks with the same modifier.

4(1d8+5) vs. 3.5(2d6+5) = 38 vs. 42

And if the dual wielder makes another attack at 11:

5(1d8+5) vs. 3.5(2d6+5) = 47.5 vs. 42

If our GWM is using the +10 every time, then he'll do more damage if he hits. There's no doubt about that. But dual wield offers more attacks more consistently, a slightly better 1 to 10 overall, and +1 AC. If dual wield also does more damage against hard to hit targets, in addition to all of that, then I don't think that's fair.

We can say that things are different at 20, when everyone has a +11 innate attack bonus attacking AC ~18 to 20 and hits nearly every time. But most games are played between 1 and 12, at least right now. I could understand a houserule to give TWF an additional attack at 20 for fighters, but it's otherwise indefensible IMO.

[PhantomRenegade]

I have to agree with Numerek its very hard to make TWF appeal to a rogue when Crossbow expert adds so much value by letting you change the fighting style (assuming rogue 13/ champion 7) to something else while still getting the bonus damage on the "offhand" attack and while also giving you the best ranged damage you can get in the game.*

*i belive, i only did some quick math but even with fighter 20 it seems to check out.


I think this might be the most uphill battle you've faced since making the beastmaster work Easy_lee.

[Kryx]

I took a look at the numbers and they seem very low for almost everyone involved
Because I actually calculate miss chance where most on this forum do not which is crazy considering common abilities that give advantage like reckless swings. 60% of the total damage is much lower, yup.


I don't think that you're taking certain things into account, such as a TWF character being able to shove a target prone with one attack to grant advantage on the others, something that makes sense to do if you need to roll better than a 10. There's also opportunity attacks, the primary argument against archery, which don't seem to be taken into account.
DPR can only take into account things you can quantify.
Proning a target: You can see the chance to hit. Proning is not a good choice when assuming average ACs which DPR must do. You'd have to give up an attack to do so and that's mathematically worse for DPR unless you have a low chance to hit, like you said.
Opportunity attacks vary hugely based on player and GM playstyle. I could put them in, but in my experience they happen at best 1 out of every 10 rounds or so (10%). Though maybe others have opinions on how often that should be. Adding these would only make GWM stronger in comparison to TWF.


The benefit of GWM is difficult to calculate, but a champion GWM at least is getting it 50% of the time at 11. He makes 3.5 attacks. A dual wielder makes 4 attacks with the same modifier.
Chance to kill is difficult to calculate. Chance to crit is quite easy and I do so. I've placed chance to kill at a flat 25%, but I do remember someone pointing out that there may be a better way to guestimate that number.

Champion: My fighter numbers are all based on the Battlemaster. I know you're a huge proponent of the Champion, but I consider it extremely dull as do most players - therefore it is not considered.



4(1d8+5) vs. 3.5(2d6+5) = 38 vs. 42

And if the dual wielder makes another attack at 11:

5(1d8+5) vs. 3.5(2d6+5) = 47.5 vs. 42
I have all the numbers in the spreadsheet. My numbers incorporate missing, crit damage, a more accurate GWM chance, etc. As I've said elsewhere: Numbers without the full details are inaccurate at best and misleading at worst.



If our GWM is using the +10 every time, then he'll do more damage if he hits. There's no doubt about that. But dual wield offers more attacks more consistently, a slightly better 1 to 10 overall, and +1 AC. If dual wield also does more damage against hard to hit targets, in addition to all of that, then I don't think that's fair.
While this is true DPR vs average AC doesn't care for the fluff. It cares for the numbers. You could alter the AC numbers to compare at high, medium, and low. I think those numbers would be very interesting, but it's a lot of bloat to add to the calculations.

EDIT: I'll try to incorporate low, medium, and high AC on the individual pages.


I could understand a houserule to give TWF an additional attack at 20 for fighters, but it's otherwise indefensible IMO.
The numbers I've presented show that dual wield is still behind GWM even with the extra bonus attack at 11. So while you may feel it is not right the numbers disagree.



As always please correct my numbers if there are any mistakes or missing information.

[Hawkstar]

But how is it compared to 1-handed Duelist?

Also - the Two Weapon Fighting feat is not really for DEX-based warriors - it's better for Strength-based dual-wielders. AC 19 and DEX 8, yo.

[Easy_Lee]

But how is it compared to 1-handed Duelist?

Also - the Two Weapon Fighting feat is not really for DEX-based warriors - it's better for Strength-based dual-wielders. AC 19 and DEX 8, yo.

Duelist is a little behind unless he uses polearm mastery and a quarterstaff, which puts his damage ahead (equivalent of 1d10 attack and 1d8 bonus). A lot of people don't like the whole quarterstaff duelist thing.

A duelist who uses a shield, takes shield mastery, and acquires athletics expertise is harder to graph, considering that he will very often have advantage.

[Kryx]

Ran the number vs higher AC. Vs average AC +5 GWM is about 10% above TWF until level 11 and then they are within 1% of each other for 11+. With the houserule TWF would be behind GWM until 11 at which point it's ahead by 27% if the GWM is using -5/+10. If he stopped using it GWM is ahead most of his career and is tied otherwise.

Based on those numbers using higher AC I see absolutely no reason not to use the houserule of an additional bonus at 11.

[numerek]

I'm not sure why Easy_Lee is ignoring my earlier post, but even if you dislike quarterstaff + shield, you could do glaive/halberd and mariner fighting style to deal the same damage same ac +reach, swim speed, climb speed. and still get the additional attack of opportunity reaction trigger. or if you don't want to allow the mariner fighting style you can do great weapon fighting style and deal more damage, then add to that great weapon master. Your extra killing power should more than make up for 1 less AC.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm not sure why Easy_Lee is ignoring my earlier post, but even if you dislike quarterstaff + shield, you could do glaive/halberd and mariner fighting style to deal the same damage same ac +reach, swim speed, climb speed. and still get the additional attack of opportunity reaction trigger. or if you don't want to allow the mariner fighting style you can do great weapon fighting style and deal more damage, then add to that great weapon master. Your extra killing power should more than make up for 1 less AC.

Simple reason is that we all already know that there are ways to do more damage than dual wield can achieve. I'm just trying to come up with dual wield builds that function and bring something interesting to the table.

And your polearm build only gets +1 AC if it's not wearing heavy armor. It's an interesting build, mariner with medium armor and a polearm, but that's not what I was trying to do with this thread. It's about "making the most of dual wield," or at least that was the intent.

[PhantomRenegade]

In terms of pure damage optimisation wouldnt assassin 15 champion 5 be better?

[Ardantis]

Dual wield in this edition is really niche. WoTC even made an archetype (the swashbuckler) to have at least one for which it was mechanically inclined.

The general system treats it is sub-par, which it is. Outside of some schools of fencing and maybe an angry, improvising barbarian, it is the stuff of cinema. Hell, even Rangers can't dual effectively compared to other styles.

If you want to dual wield, play a swash. Whether or not the feat works for them is what this discussion should be about, and builds that use swash to make SA melee reliable.

[numerek]

Simple reason is that we all already know that there are ways to do more damage than dual wield can achieve. I'm just trying to come up with dual wield builds that function and bring something interesting to the table.

And your polearm build only gets +1 AC if it's not wearing heavy armor. It's an interesting build, mariner with medium armor and a polearm, but that's not what I was trying to do with this thread. It's about "making the most of dual wield," or at least that was the intent.

I think I was unable to convey the point I was trying to make.

I am confused.

In your champion 6 / barbarian 14 build you say "max dex and max con" and then you go on to say "You gain rage bonus on all attacks while raging." and "1.1*(3d8)+15+3*rage bonus damage per round", you don't say where the +15 is coming from but by saying max dex and not saying max str plus you said that you don't want the builds to be MAD it is assumed the +15 is coming from dex.

But you don't "gain rage bonus on all attacks while raging", you gain rage bonus on all melee weapon attacks made with your strength while raging in previous post I quoted a small bit of the phb.

So you can still have a dexbarian but you don't get the +15 & the +3*rage bonus you get one or the other,

if you give up the +15 you get whatever +3*strength ability modifier and that also effects your to hit, but if you are attacking with strength then there is no reason to limit yourself to finesse weapons and therefore unless you are going for the amusing mounted dual lance wielder you are better off going polearm master.

if you give up the +3*rage bonus mainly for the to hit because unless your strength score is really low(which it has to be atleast 13) the rage bonus should even out the damage. Then yes this build does benefit from dual wielding since there are no finesse weapons that are also great weapons or polearms. it is just that the build is a little bit less good that you may have original thought since you are losing 4 to 12 damage per turn. just from the rage bonus you are also losing more than that by going with a fighting style that is less damaging.

As far as my musing I was making an even different assumption, that you were going for max str, max dex, and max con so I was still talking about being unarmored. but of course to get that you would need to use rolling for stats and get lucky.

[Easy_Lee]

But you don't "gain rage bonus on all attacks while raging", you gain rage bonus on all melee weapon attacks made with your strength while raging in previous post I quoted a small bit of the phb.

Then I guess you would have to be MAD or ask for a houserule for it to work. Either that or just give up on the dual wield bit. Like I said, it's extraordinarily difficult to make dual wield viable on just about anyone. WotC has gone out of their way to make sure that, any time it would be viable, they change some little thing or add a rule that makes it not viable.

Blade pact warlocks? They may only have one pact weapon. Would have to houserule thay they have two or that they can treat twinned weapons as one weapon.

Barbarians? No rage bonus to dexterity attacks, and polearm mastery does equivalent damage to the best dual wield can offer if you have extra attack.

Fighters? No real benefit to dual wield past the first few levels, since it has diminishing returns with extra attack. The other weapon styles improve the damage or accuracy of all of your attacks, while TWF only affects the offhand.

Ranger? Too many uses of their bonus action, and there are more bow attack spells than Melee attack spells, so good luck.

Paladin? They don't get the style.

Rogue? In a featless game, this is about it. Otherwise, crossbow expert is better. Only way around it is to multiclass, into fighter for instance, to get the style and just enough extra attack that you would be better off dual wielding than using dueling.

[numerek]

I don't know what the optimal mixture would be and I don't know how good it would turn out but if you were forced into a build that was paladin x / rogue 20 - x for some x > 1 and x < 20 then two weapon fighting would have some merit.

Some paladin abilities require melee weapon use and rogue sneak attack requires finesse or ranged. so to get the most out of both you need to use finesse melee weapons, and if you have to use those two weapon fighting isn't that bad. it would definitely beat dueling for x < 5 and even then the extra chance the bonus action attack gives for sneak attack is well worth it.

I'm thinking an assassin for rogue because of the paladins alpha strike potential. since paladin's get benefits from charisma you could go with a spy theme which would be aided by rogues expertise. And assassin's level 9 ability. if you want that ability that leaves 11 levels for paladin which is pretty good for improved divine smite. the choice of oath is less clear cut, all of them have their pros and cons and none really jumps out as the clear choice.

devotion
sacred weapon doesn't really fit with assassin, spy rogue theme since it emits 40' of light. and charm seems like a weak effect in 5th edition so the aura isn't that great, spells work though for the most part.

ancients
Nature's wrath doesn't seem to be worth an action and a daily ability, the aura is awesome and the spells are fine.

vengeance
vow of enmity is nice in that it uses your bonus action which is only one attack that doesn't get your ability score modifier and gives you advantage on potentially 2 attacks which also takes care of enabling sneak attack.

relentless avenger I would say is no where near as good as ancients aura it does work with the assassin spy theme if you don't kill them right away you can't have them getting away. again the spells work.

For fighting style go with defense. Yes you don't get your ability modifier to damage on your off hand attack but it is there for enabling a 3rd smite which is automatic with improved divine smite and you could have divine favor or crusader's mantle or possibly hunters mark up, and if you missed your first 2 attacks you will definitely want that third attack which could be the one that deals the up to 5d6 sneak attack damage.

I would say you would want to get alert around the time you get the assassin's 3rd level ability for helping get the free advantage. Actor could be good if you start with an odd charisma score. There are many other feats that could be good.

So now that we have worked that out lets try a build

11 Oath of Vengeance Paladin / 9 assassin Rogue

Race
Half Elf darkvision is great for an assassin spy, +2 charisma +1 dexterity +1 something else probably constitution, +2 skills, advantage against charm (another reason not to take devotion) immune to magic sleep can't kill people while your lying around on the job.

Other Races
human variant for a free feat

Starting stats

Strength 13
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 8
wisdom 8
Charisma 17


Equipment
start with Studded leather(because I starting with rogue for the extra skill)
breastplate when you can afford or can stick with studded leather once dexterity is 18+
two short swords. start with crossbow, light upgrade to long bow for when the situation calls for the long distance assassination.

Skills
acrobatics, perception(6th level expert), persuasion, deception(expert), performance, sleight of hand, stealth(expert), insight
I'm not sure what to put the second 6th level expert in.

Concept
Mentioned above

Progression
* indicates war domain spells

Rogue for extra skill dexterity and intelligence saves, sneak attack d6, expertise, thieve's cant so you can talk about assassinating someone while they are right there but they don't know that is what you are talking about. you can do paladin here for 2hps and heavy armor proficiency, wisdom and charisma saves.
Immediately switch to paladin because this build is all about needing a reason to two weapon fight, gets medium armor and shield proficiency, lay on hands, divine sense good for those hard to find celestials, fiends and undead you are trying to kill
Smite you can do this twice in the same turn, thanks two weapon fighting, defense fighting style, we get 4 spells prepared bless, command, cure wounds, detect evil and good(no I didn't just take the first 4 on the list I skipped compelled duel) rogue 1 if you started with paladin
switch back to rogue because we want to assassinate stuff, cunning action for those times when there is nothing to hit with our off hand weapon.
Assassinate advantage on attacks against people that haven't acted yet, auto crit if they are surprised, 2d6 sneak attack, proficiency with disguise kit and poisoner's kit we are an assassin spy now.
back to paladin divine health hard to assassinate and spy on people when you are sick, vow of enmity as discussed above, spell slot progression always prepared bane, hunters mark
ASI dexterity or charisma. can add detect magic to prepared spells
Extra attack sorry it took so long level progression for this build is really hard I want the abilities of both classes right away second level spells you can find a steed, lesser restoration, always prepared zone of truth, misty step we can already bonus action dash but this could be used to go up 30 feet or across something that has a 30 foot gap.
Aura of protection +3-5 to all saves
back to rogue ASI dexterity or charisma
Uncanny dodge 3d6 sneak attack
back to paladin relentless avenger spell slot progression
ASI dexterity or charisma
3rd level spells, aura of vitality is a heal over time spell, dispel magic, remove curse, always prepared haste(4 attacks) protection from energy
Aura of courage immune to frighten
improved divine smite +d8 every attack spell slot progression
back to rogue expertise
evasion 4d6 sneak attack
ASI dexterity or charisma
Infiltration expertise something has to be last and it ended up being this. 5d6 sneak attack


Alternatives
As I said above I don't know what the optimal is, 12 paladin / 8 rogue gets an ASI. I also thought of doing 13 paladin / 7 rogue which gets you 4th level spells. for more nova you could drop 2 rogue and get 2 fighter for fighting style and action surge.

My thoughts
I think this build worked out pretty well for a multiclass that few would do and needs to use a subpar fighting style(and doesn't get said fighting style). One of the things I like is how both classes contribute to survivability and once your at 18th/19th level you should not be taking any damage from dexterity saves with a +16 and evasion. Also this is a featless build. If I were to add a feat it would probably be alert.

Note: my use of minimum below is minimum the dice could be obviously if you can miss your minimum damage is 0.
Surprise Nova round damage potential
(haste)36d8+18d6+15=69 minimum, 240 average, 411 max, not bad for a build that is not completely devoted to nova, not many PCs caught unaware can take 240 damage of course alert saves them and shift this down to normal nova round damage potential

Normal Nova round damage potential
(haste)18d8+9d6+15=42 minimum, 127.5 average, 213 max

Without regular divine smiting
(haste)4d8+9d6+15=28 minimum, 64.5 average, 101 max