Frenzy and Exhaustion (Idea Thread)

[Ralanr]

As talked about over in This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406548-Berserker-Better-for-a-Featless-Build), the Berserker path for Barbarian has its issues. While every class has issues, this are the kind of issues that would stop a lot of people from playing the archetype.

Whenever the berserker comes up we have several answers on how to fix the problem, many suggest removing/making it easier to remove exhaustion and few suggest buffing the other abilities to make the frenzy more worth it. Though last thread went about four pages before the OP's question got answered (These are internet forums, so that usually happens. Plus I might be wrong.). I thought it might be best to make a new thread entirely to discuss possible fixes to the berserker subclass.

Now a lot of people say it works fine, but I have two issues I wish to share.

1. Mindless Rage: Now I believe the ability is good, but I think people have pointed out multiple times that charms are much rarer now. Ignoring fear is awesome though, tells fearful presence to screw itself. Is this ability really not as powerful as it reads?

2. Intimidating presence: I love the flavor of this ability, but I don't think the ability is particularly good at pulling the flavor off. I'm not arguing the Cha DC, that makes sense, but why one target and why your action? The last thing a barb wants to do in combat (from my experience but others may differ. Was playing Totem.) is not attack, so this ability would most likely not be used in rage. And why one target? If you do this in a crowd only one person gets intimidated?
Of course this ability could be argued as an utility ability that is meant for role playing. It's not bad as a role playing ability, but Berserker is an offense path. While the totem barb gets out of combat utility abilities at level 6, berserker gets an ability that makes him ignore the scary clown with a knife, but only when he/she is in rage. While you can use rage out of combat, I think it was built as a combat ability (Course doors always need breaking and then you have other athletics checks.). The only thing that makes it somewhat better than the menacing attack maneuver is that there is no limit to how many times you can do it, and no rest required.

If we removed the exhaustion penalties, would it make those abilities better? They wouldn't be touched since they're not really affected by exhaustion. Personally I think these abilities should gain extra benefits when the barb enters frenzy. Something like for mindless rage: "While in frenzy, you have advantage on all mental saving throws" which makes sense to me in certain ways. Their so furious that illusions mean nothing or their minds can't be understood through tempest of rage inside (Ok I'm getting flavorful.)

For intimidating presence: While in frenzy, as a bonus action you may exert your menacing presence around you. As a bonus action you can make every hostile creature within a 15ft radius roll a wisdom saying throw. (Rest of the ability remains unchanged). The problem with this change is the bonus attack from frenzy uses that action. I'd argue for a change in frenzy to make the extra attack stack with your attack action (This would be broken since this means fighter 17/berserker 3 would have the same amount of attacks as a level 20 fighter. We could put something that specifies it only applies to attacks gained from barbarian levels, but that gets more complicated and messy).

Those are my ideas for a fix. What are your ideas for possible fixes? I know the path can stay as it is and still work, almost everything can work. But a lot of people have ideas so why not share them in an idea thread?

[Kryx]

To intercept the inevitable "the Berserker is fine!" here are the latest DPR numbers which show that a GWM Berserker gains about 23% damage for Frenzying while a Polearm + GWM Berserker gains 3% damage.

Through play experience I think the Frenzy Barbarian is fun to play. I went into that thread arguing not to buff the Berserker, but after charting out all the math I'm convinced that it needs something.

Any debate about those numbers should be taken to the mentioned thread. Hopefully we can keep this one for ideas. I'm quite interested to see what comes of this.

http://i.imgur.com/i7pieO6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b4OE7Sb.png

[Kryx]

Here any my current ideas:

Houserule (Buff): Rage: When you make a melee or ranged weapon attack using Strength.
Houserule (Buff): Frenzy: Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can remove a level of exhaustion that you gained from using Frenzy.
Houserule (Buff): Rage does not require a bonus action.

I'd like to see some changes that don't revolve around damage as Frenzy's damage is quite good. Though maybe a small change so that GWM is around 50% dmg increase and polearm+GWM gets a decent boost. Allowing 2 sustainable Frenzies per day helps the normal GWM a lot. Not sure if there is anything that can or should be done about the Polearm + GWM Barbarian.

[Kajorma]

I have not seen this work in game, and I'm pretty new to 5e, but I just don't see what the big deal is here. I've seen this mentioned in several threads. Please don't take this as combative, and someone explain to me the issues with Frenzy.

From what I see, the only disadvantage it gives is levels of exhaustion. So, that gets really rough around 3 levels in. But, a long rest gets rid of a level, so you can reasonably be able to pull one level a day without any serious penalty.

So, Frenzy gives you a second attack at level 3, which seems huge, but you only get it for one encounter per day.

I mean, that just doesn't seem that bad.

[Ralanr]

I have not seen this work in game, and I'm pretty new to 5e, but I just don't see what the big deal is here. I've seen this mentioned in several threads. Please don't take this as combative, and someone explain to me the issues with Frenzy.

From what I see, the only disadvantage it gives is levels of exhaustion. So, that gets really rough around 3 levels in. But, a long rest gets rid of a level, so you can reasonably be able to pull one level a day without any serious penalty.

So, Frenzy gives you a second attack at level 3, which seems huge, but you only get it for one encounter per day.

I mean, that just doesn't seem that bad.

The problem that exhaustion gives is that you'd need three days to remove those three levels. It differs from campaign to campaign, but apparently most can't afford that sort of luxury. I don't think the damage output alone is enough to justify such a long rest period (It's a lot of damage, but it does stack. I don't think people will frenzy themselves to death, but at one point your max health is halved. That's pretty horrifying) so I believe we should make it justify a longer period by buffing other abilities with extras that only appear when in Frenzy.

Edit: As Kryx points out below, this is not a debate thread but an idea thread. So if possible shove debates on ideas to new threads or even message the person with the idea.

[Kryx]

I would suggest we not debate the worthiness of Berzerker being buffed here, but leave that to the other thread. The numbers are above if you'd like to better understand it.

This thread is for ideas. Else it will become distracted from the goal.

[WickerNipple]

Let them recover one level of exhaustion during a short rest once per day at lvl 3, and then 2x at mid-level and 3x near the very end.

[treecko]

My preferred fix is to allow barbarians to ignore levels of exhaustion while raging (not just frenzy). This way, barbarians can use their limited resources to offset the disadvantages of exhaustion for combat. I also wish frenzy barbs got some sort of benefit for being exhausted.

[Easy_Lee]

My suggestion, and I'm not the first to propose some of these:

Ignore fatigue while raging (all barbarians). This one's very fluffy and I would consider it a minimum.
Berserkers ignore the penalty of first level of fatigue starting at level 6.
Berserkers can remove one level of fatigue at the end of a short rest starting at level 10.

I'm not convinced that frightful presence is meant for battle, so that one may need a little inspection.

[Kryx]

The main fixes here are dealing with fatigue. While fatigue is annoying, it isn't really a problem. The problem is the cost is too high for the benefit. IMO I'm I'd rather see small benefits given and a small relief given to fatigue instead of reducing the cost.

Because even if the cost is reduced it's only 3% more damage for Polearm + GWM. It's 23% for GWM though.

[WickerNipple]

Because even if the cost is reduced it's only 3% more damage for Polearm + GWM. It's 23% for GWM though.

See I don't see that as a problem in the slightest. Their core mechanic is a better version of polearm... obviously using a polearm as one isn't going to be optimal.

From what I've seen more people object to the cost, not the benefit. Reducing or offering ways to manage the cost is certainly the strategy I'd recommend.

[Easy_Lee]

One thing of note with the frenzy is that they may be able to avoid feats like polearm mastery if they are able to manage the frenzy penalty. Some feats that people normally ignore, like savage attacker, or even focusing on raising three stats may be possible for a frenzy barbarian.

Edit: for example, a variant human might point buy three 15s, take athlete or Resilient, and start with 16 strength, dexterity, and constitution. He can end up with two 24s and an 18 for 21 natural AC, or two 24s, a 16, and GWM for a bigger damage option.

[Steampunkette]

Kill the exhaustion. Replace it with hit dice. Cumulative increases.

When you run out, you start taking hit dice worth of damage.

So a 10th level barb could rage 4 times. Or frenzy 4 times. The first frenzy costs 1hd. The second costs 2. Third costs 3. And fourth costs 4. If she used 1 hit die to heal, then she is in the negatives and takes 1d12 damage after her last frenzy. If she used 4 then she takes 4d12.

So long as your party healer doesn't mind holding you up throughout the whole day you'll be okay. But if they can't, well.... you might frenzy yourself to death. But it doesn't carry over every day or debilitate you nearly as badly.

[Safety Sword]

A real issue is that in a campaign where you are under constant threat and the safety of a place to take a long rest is absent the exhaustion levels become a liability fairly quickly.

What is needed is some sort of extra mitigation to avoid the chance of gaining exhaustion levels or outright immunity to the lower levels of exhaustion. Or, the ability to lose exhaustion levels at an increased rate compared to others.

Perhaps whilst raging you could ignore the first effects of the first 3 levels of exhaustion?

I guess you don't HAVE to frenzy every time you rage, so it is basically a brake on the number of frenzies you can do per day. It seems to me that this is an intentional limitation on the ability and it's not meant to be used at will or every rage.

[Ralanr]

A real issue is that in a campaign where you are under constant threat and the safety of a place to take a long rest is absent the exhaustion levels become a liability fairly quickly.

What is needed is some sort of extra mitigation to avoid the chance of gaining exhaustion levels or outright immunity to the lower levels of exhaustion. Or, the ability to lose exhaustion levels at an increased rate compared to others.

Perhaps whilst raging you could ignore the first effects of the first 3 levels of exhaustion?

I guess you don't HAVE to frenzy every time you rage, so it is basically a brake on the number of frenzies you can do per day. It seems to me that this is an intentional limitation on the ability and it's not meant to be used at will or every rage.

Maybe limit Frenzy to half of your rages per day? Though by 9 to 15 it's either the same as 1 to 8 or 16 to 20.

@Easy_Lee: with the way it's worded, it feels like a in combat ability. But maybe that's just me.

[Easy_Lee]

@Easy_Lee: with the way it's worded, it feels like a in combat ability. But maybe that's just me.

On first reading, I agreed. Looking back, the ability is best used for interrogating enemies or scaring away the guy who's hitting on your girlfriend. Further, totem barbarians get commune with nature as a ritual at 10, so the level 10 frenzy ability probably shouldn't be a combat thing.

Note that commune with nature is kind of a crappy archetype feature, and I'm not saying that the frenzy one needs to be this crappy, just that it probably shouldn't be a combat-heavy thing for the sake of consistency.

[Kajorma]

This thread is for ideas. Else it will become distracted from the goal.

Fair enough.

Though I think Ralanr answered my question well enough. Our party's barbarian has not yet had to deal with any of this (we are level 2), and I really just wanted to understand what's it all about.
Our group is pretty rest friendly in general, so unless the GM pushes us for speed, I think he'll be okay. I suppose we'll have to see in game.

Thanks for the reply.

[HugeC]

A friend of mine ran a game where we played pre-gens he created, one of which was a frenzy barbarian that used two-weapon fighting. Which, of course, made frenzy pointless.

What would happen if you made it +1 attack with your attack action when you frenzy rather than a bonus action to attack? That way you could TWF as a frenzy barb and not have it suck, plus GWM frenzy barbs wouldn't lose the bonus attack benefit of the GWM feat.

Would that make it too powerful though?

[ChubbyRain]

How about each time you use Frenzy during a rage you lose a hit die (as if you spent it)?

Maybe not on a 1:1 case but something like this puld work much better than exhaustion.

[MeeposFire]

What if the frenzy "exhausts" you by taking more rounds of rage away from you? For instance what if every round of a frenzy counts as two rounds of rage? In addition frenzy is so tiring that you cannot use frenzy twice in a row IE you have to use a normal rage in between uses of frenzy because your body cannot handle frenzying twice in a row (if you want you can allow things that remove exhaustion to allow you to frenzy multiple times in a row and you could also allow it at 20th level since by then it does not matter as much).

[Shaofoo]

I feel like I should point out a part of the DMG about Chases. It says you can use the Dash command during a chase 3 + Con Mod times and after that you have to roll a Con Check or gain 1 level of exhaustion and that the chase ends for the subject if they gain 5 levels of exhaustion (since your speed would be 0). Also that for exhaustion levels gained through chases are all wiped off with a short or long rest.

Basically maybe make frenzy that you can use for free once in a fight and after that you must make a Con check or gain a exhaustion level but levels gained from Frenzy are all wiped away after a short or long rest.

[Kajorma]

I feel like I should point out a part of the DMG about Chases. It says you can use the Dash command during a chase 3 + Con Mod times and after that you have to roll a Con Check or gain 1 level of exhaustion and that the chase ends for the subject if they gain 5 levels of exhaustion (since your speed would be 0). Also that for exhaustion levels gained through chases are all wiped off with a short or long rest.

Basically maybe make frenzy that you can use for free once in a fight and after that you must make a Con check or gain a exhaustion level but levels gained from Frenzy are all wiped away after a short or long rest.

I've admitted earlier that I don't know much about this system, or the balance to it, but that fix seems a bit too heavy-handed to me. Short rests are generally really easy to come by.
I would think that just changing it to wipe out all levels after a long rest would be enough. Hell, maybe just doubling the amount that's in the rules now would be enough. If I were GMing a game, I'd gradually be tweaking it up and down to see what really seemed to work best.

In general it seems the game designers put this mechanic in here in order to nerf rage. Consensus here seems to be that the nerf went too far (which I'm willing to buy) but the ability probably did need to have some limitations added.

[Shaofoo]

I've admitted earlier that I don't know much about this system, or the balance to it, but that fix seems a bit too heavy-handed to me. Short rests are generally really easy to come by.
I would think that just changing it to wipe out all levels after a long rest would be enough. Hell, maybe just doubling the amount that's in the rules now would be enough. If I were GMing a game, I'd gradually be tweaking it up and down to see what really seemed to work best.

To be honest the point in my post was that in the DMG itself they basically violated the exhaustion recovery rules for recovering exhaustion through chases. Basically we could put up Frenzy up to unique exhaustion rules that have unique ways of wiping them out besides the one level a day thing.


In general it seems the game designers put this mechanic in here in order to nerf rage. Consensus here seems to be that the nerf went too far (which I'm willing to buy) but the ability probably did need to have some limitations added.

I don't know how much of a nerf this is to rage, considering that Frenzy only affects Beserker Barbarians. If you are a totem Beserker you will never need to think about Frenzy because it doesn't apply to you.