Beholder Mage & Vow of Poverty: What do I do with all these 15 feats?

[Pippin]

Hey playground citizens,

we've recently talked about the Beholder Mage class in another thread and I tried to optimize that class for fun. I took the Vow of Poverty feat (since BMs have no spellbooks) for its continuous True Seeing at level 18 but I really don't know what to do with all the feats I get.



ECL01 Cloistered Cleric 1 Bonus Feat: Craft Wondrous Item
Human: Assume Supernatural Ability
Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: Vow of Poverty
Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL02 Beholder Mage 1 Arcane Hands Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL03 Beholder Mage 2 Bonus Feat: Extend Spell
ECL04 Beholder Mage 3 Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL05 Beholder Mage 4
ECL06 Dweomerkeeper 1 Bonus Feat: Iron Will
Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL07 Dweomerkeeper 2 Arcane Sight
ECL08 Dweomerkeeper 3 Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL09 Dweomerkeeper 4 Sup. Spell 1/day Bonus Feat: Free!
ECL10 Incantatrix 1 Bonus Metamagic Feat: Persistent Spell
Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL11 Incantatrix 2
ECL12 Incantatrix 3 Metamagic Effect Bonus Feat: Free!
Bonus Metamagic Feat: Invisible Spell
Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL13 Dweomerkeeper 5
ECL14 Dweomerkeeper 6 Sup. Spell 2/day Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL15 Dweomerkeeper 7 Bonus Feat: Free!
ECL16 Dweomerkeeper 8 Sup. Spell 3/day Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL17 Dweomerkeeper 9
ECL18 Dweomerkeeper 10 Sup. Spell 4/day Bonus Feat: Free!
Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!
ECL19 Mystic Theurge 1 +1 CC / +1 BM
ECL20 Mystic Theurge 2 +1 CC / +1 BM Bonus Exalted Feat & DCFS: Free!


VoP grants me 11 bonus feats. I don't know what to do with them, nor with the bonus feats gained at level 9, 12, 15 and 18. That's a total of 15 free feats. First, I thought of taking metamagic feats, but then, anyone would rather use Planar Bubble for free metamagic all the time. So, what would you guys suggest? Magazines are not allowed.

The character can Chaos Shuffle his feats at ECL 9 (for free).

Current feat list:



7/15

Able Learner
Craft Contingent Spell
Initiate of Mystra
Reserves of Strength
Spellcasting Prodigy
Summon Elemental
Versatile Spellcaster

[Twurps]

Once you get to the 'free metamagic planar bubble's' level of optimization, I'm not sure feats really contribute all that much, even with DCFS.
As for early entry PRC's: I know church inquisitor has very low entry requirements, but I'm not sure what benefit that would get you over 5 levels.

[Pippin]

I think I'm going to drop the idea of early PrC - such a character doesn't really need it - and put two levels of Archmage at the end.

[danzibr]

If you have VoP, how are you paying for Otyugh Hole visit?

[Sith_Happens]

If you have VoP, how are you paying for Otyugh Hole visit?

You don't actually pay to use the Otyugh Hole, the feat you get just counts as 3000 gp worth of treasure.

[LordDrako]

Are you Human?

[Pippin]

Once you get to the 'free metamagic planar bubble's' level of optimization, I'm not sure feats really contribute.
That sounds true, I must say. I could only think of 10 relevant feats, 3 of which would actually be taken for the sole purpose of becoming an Archmage. And even so, there would be 5 other feats available.


You don't actually pay to use the Otyugh Hole, the feat you get just counts as 3000 gp worth of treasure.
I don't know his point sounded valid enough so I took back Otyugh Hole. The character can really afford "burning" a feat slot anyway.


Are you Human?
Yes, at the beginning. That grants the character another bonus feat, and no penalty for multi-classing.

[Ellowryn]

Well, #1 you need the following feats just to get into Dweomerkeeper: Any metamagic feat, EWP Shuriken, and one of the following feats (Delay, Persist, or Twin Spell).

From there i would recommend grabbing Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) as it both fits and is extremely powerful.

[Pippin]

Well, #1 you need the following feats just to get into Dweomerkeeper: Any metamagic feat, EWP Shuriken, and one of the following feats (Delay, Persist, or Twin Spell).

From there i would recommend grabbing Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) as it both fits and is extremely powerful.
What's EWP Shuriken?
Why would I need Delay Spell?
Twin Spell isn't that great, is it? Should I change my mind, I can add it to the Planar Bubble.

The problem with Initiate of Mystra is that it requires 3 levels of cleric :smallsigh: and besides, I'm not sure Mystra is compatible with the Magic domain.

[Troacctid]

and besides, I'm not sure Mystra is compatible with the Magic domain.

Mystra is the FR goddess of magic, sometimes known as the Mother of all Magic. I think she's compatible with it. :smallwink:

[Ellowryn]

What's EWP Shuriken?
Why would I need Delay Spell?
Twin Spell isn't that great, is it? Should I change my mind, I can add it to the Planar Bubble.

The problem with Initiate of Mystra is that it requires 3 levels of cleric :smallsigh: and besides, I'm not sure Mystra is compatible with the Magic domain.

Ah, i see that your list of feats is actually just a list of your bonus feats, you seem to have most of the feats needed but Exotic Weapon Proficiency Shuriken.

And being as you HAVE to worship Mystra to take the PrC, yes it makes sense to take the feat if you can spare the cleric levels.

[Pippin]

Mystra is the FR goddess of magic, sometimes known as the Mother of all Magic. I think she's compatible with it. :smallwink:
Haha my bad.


Ah, i see that your list of feats is actually just a list of your bonus feats, you seem to have most of the feats needed but Exotic Weapon Proficiency Shuriken.

And being as you HAVE to worship Mystra to take the PrC, yes it makes sense to take the feat if you can spare the cleric levels.
I think that requirement didn't make it to 3.5e. But as long as Mystra is compatible with the Magic domain, I'm certainly okay with it. Also, EWP (Shuriken) is unnecessary for 3.5e.

Initiate of Mystra is nice but I would have to lose two levels of BM (for two levels of cleric) to legitimately get it, OR find a way to cast 2nd-level divine spells without the help of another feat, and go Mystic Theurge. At the beginning of the progression, I really need every single one of my feats to enter the Dweomerkeeper PrC at ECL 6.

Or, I could give up Archmage.

[LordDrako]

Yes, at the beginning. That grants the character another bonus feat, and no penalty for multi-classing.

I really like your build, this can be powerful =)
But, you dont need be a Beholder? Pre req for Beholder Mage?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I really like your build, this can be powerful =)
But, you dont need be a Beholder? Pre req for Beholder Mage?

It is not the most 100% RAW but you can pay someone to cast Polymorph Any Object on you twice to turn you into a beholder permanently.

[Story]

How are you staying Exalted after the DFCS? Pretty sure that's an Evil act.

[LordDrako]

It is not the most 100% RAW but you can pay someone to cast Polymorph Any Object on you twice to turn you into a beholder permanently.

So, if i use
Polymorph Any Object, i can be a dragon and get LoreDrake?

[ZamielVanWeber]

How are you staying Exalted after the DFCS? Pretty sure that's an Evil act.

Having multiple Abyssal Heritor feats makes you chaotic without Ordered Abyss, but DCFS can do them one at a time to avoid that.


So, if i use
Polymorph Any Object, i can be a dragon and get LoreDrake?
You can gain the dragon type, which would qualify you for Loredrake. You still need sorcerer casting to add to.

[LordDrako]

I think use polymorph dont is valid for it.

Antimagic field, dispel or disjunction dont break PolAnOb?

[Tiri]

I think use polymorph dont is valid for it.

Antimagic field, dispel or disjunction dont break PolAnOb?

Even if they did, he would still keep his class abilities after being turned back into a human. I think only two of the Completes have classes that lose their abilities if you lose the prerequisites.

[Taelas]

There is some disagreement as to whether or not that is true. Some (including myself) feel it applies to any PrC (there is precedent also in the general rule that loss of prerequisites means loss of the thing you required prerequisites for, such as using temporary means to qualify for feats), and that the wording in CW and CA merely update the general rule. Others feel it only applies to the books in question.

That being said, yes, disjunction etc. break polymorph any object. It is a permanent effect, held in place by magic. Dispelling it removes the effect.

[LordDrako]

I think Pol An Ob you cant qualify for it. :smallredface:
But, if you are a true Beholder, its an amazing build.

[Taelas]

Polymorph any object works, mainly because of the permanent duration. You fulfill the requirement by having been transformed into a beholder. (Just cast it twice.)

[Story]

The main argument against losing Prcs when you lose the prereqs is that some Prcs are self-disqualifying.

[dethkruzer]

I think Pol An Ob you cant qualify for it. :smallredface:
But, if you are a true Beholder, its an amazing build.

That's why you use PAO twice. First to turn a humanoid race into an Elan, a humanoid-shaped aberration from the XPH. The forms are sufficiently similar for the duration to be permanent. Then you repeat to turn into a beholder. While the physical shape differs greatly, the shared aberration type allows the polymorphism to be permanent.


The main argument against losing Prcs when you lose the prereqs is that some Prcs are self-disqualifying.

The Dragon Disciple was a good example of this, wasn't it? I'm AFB right now, but one of the prerequisites for it was to not be of the dragon type. But once you reach the tenth level, you gain the half-dragon template, turning into a dragon. At this point you would stop qualifying for the prestige class, and loose the template. Loosing the template in turn qualifies you again, making you once again gain the template. Ad nauseam.

[Story]

An even simpler example are the Prcs that require you to have no spellcasting ability and provide spellcasting.

[Heliomance]

You can't Planar Bubble for free metamagic until you can cast Genesis to set up a free metamagic demiplane. Are you sure you don't want metamagic before you get 9th level spells?

[Sith_Happens]

Well, #1 you need the following feats just to get into Dweomerkeeper: Any metamagic feat, EWP Shuriken, and one of the following feats (Delay, Persist, or Twin Spell).

Dweomerkeeper was updated in the Complete Divine web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a), the requirements are now:

Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Spellcraft 8 ranks
Any item creation feat
Any metamagic feat
Ability to cast both arcane and divine spells
Magic domain
Must have created at least one magic item (consumables are okay)

You can gain the dragon type, which would qualify you for Loredrake. You still need sorcerer casting to add to.

For Loredrake you have to become a true dragon, and I don't have the book it's in so I don't know whether there's actually a RAW way to acquire it in play.

[Twurps]

An even simpler example are the Prcs that require you to have no spellcasting ability and provide spellcasting.

The ones I know of require 'no spellcasting when entering the class' A condition that you cannot break by later getting spelcasting.
Do you have an example of one that allows no spellcasting at all?

[Pippin]

So, would it be legal to qualify for Mystic Theurge at ECL 19 with Sanctum Spell, then take two levels of that PrC, then DCFS Sanctum Spell away and keep the +2 levels to cleric as Mystic Theurge would by now self-qualify for the "able to cast 2nd-level divine spell" requirement?

Also, is my avatar related to my post count or am I stuck with this one?

[Twurps]

You can't use a class to qualify for itself. You have to qualify at the moment you enter. (Or the moment you would have entered, if you're retraining). Otherwise, Mystic theurge would always (retroactively, after retraining) be my starting class.

[Pippin]

You can't use a class to qualify for itself. You have to qualify at the moment you enter. (Or the moment you would have entered, if you're retraining). Otherwise, Mystic theurge would always (retroactively, after retraining) be my starting class.
I qualify with Sanctum Spell.

[ZamielVanWeber]

For Loredrake you have to become a true dragon, and I don't have the book it's in so I don't know whether there's actually a RAW way to acquire it in play.

RAI yes. RAW no. To qualify for a sovereign archetype you need only be a dragon.

[Taelas]

The main argument against losing Prcs when you lose the prereqs is that some Prcs are self-disqualifying.

Poorly-written PrCs are not a sound argument, though.


Also, is my avatar related to my post count or am I stuck with this one?

You can change it in your User Control Panel. Click "Settings" in the top-right hand corner, find "General Settings" in the column on the left, and at the bottom, you can choose a different avatar, either one designed by the Giant from a drop-down menu or you can remotely link to an image. (Or alternatively, click here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/profile.php?do=editoptions).)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Poorly-written PrCs are not a sound argument, though.

AFAIK the main argument is that the DMG counts as the primary source for prestige classes. The two completes can modify their own via specific trumps general, but outside of any mention in a particular book of these rules than we default to the DMG's, which is if you lose qualifications you don't lose features.

[LordDrako]

RAI yes. RAW no. To qualify for a sovereign archetype you need only be a dragon.
Yeah, =). So, i am qualify to loredrake =) :smallbiggrin:

[Taelas]

AFAIK the main argument is that the DMG counts as the primary source for prestige classes. The two completes can modify their own via specific trumps general, but outside of any mention in a particular book of these rules than we default to the DMG's, which is if you lose qualifications you don't lose features.

I am well aware of the arguments, I just happen to disagree with them. The DMG doesn't address it one way or the other. I would argue that Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane alter prestige classes, just as how the Miniatures Handbook altered what actions were available in a round by introducing Swift actions (and again when Expanded Psionics Handbook introduced Immediate).

[Pippin]

Okay, let's just stick to the topic at hand.


So, would it be legal to qualify for Mystic Theurge at ECL 19 with Sanctum Spell, then take two levels of that PrC, then DCFS Sanctum Spell away and keep the +2 levels to cleric as Mystic Theurge would by now self-qualify for the "able to cast 2nd-level divine spell" requirement?

Is it legal? Technically, I use a feat to bypass one of the requirements, then I no longer need the feat as the PrC later fulfills its own requirements.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Is it legal? Technically, I use a feat to bypass one of the requirements, then I no longer need the feat as the PrC later fulfills its own requirements.

AFAIK yes. Using a PrC to qualify for itself is a time honored trick.

[Taelas]

Depends on how exactly you get rid of the feat, though. The Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos trick, yes. Ordinary retraining, no.

[Gün]

There is always a thing that bothers me about Beholder Mage. What happens the eyestalks when you polymorphed/shapechanged into a form without eyestalks? Can you use them in that form? If you shapechanged into a humanoid form, instead of eyestalk casting can you do normal humanoid casting?

[Pippin]

There is always a thing that bothers me about Beholder Mage. What happens the eyestalks when you polymorphed/shapechanged into a form without eyestalks? Can you use them in that form? If you shapechanged into a humanoid form, instead of eyestalk casting can you do normal humanoid casting?
I was told yesterday that you need spell-stalks to cast arcane spells. Give your DM some candies every now and then and Mordenkainen's Disjunction should never be a thing.

Edit: So... I'm still looking for a few more feats :smallsigh:

Current feat list:



7/15

Able Learner
Craft Contingent Spell
Initiate of Mystra
Reserves of Strength
Spellcasting Prodigy
Summon Elemental
Versatile Spellcaster

[Gün]

Damn. I don't like to look of eye stalks though ;_;

By the way, am I reading this wrong or prcing with beholder mage, even with full casting prcs, results a lower caster level.


A beholder mage’s spells function at a caster level equal to twice its beholder mage level. (LoM p43)

[Story]

Depends on how exactly you get rid of the feat, though. The Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos trick, yes. Ordinary retraining, no.

Why not? I don't see any reason why retraining wouldn't work.

[Twurps]

Why not? I don't see any reason why retraining wouldn't work.

Because retraining doesn't allow anything that wasn't allowed in the first place:


Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new
option must represent a choice that you could have made at
the same level as you made the original choice. Also, the new
choice can’t make any of your later choices illegal

[Taelas]

Why not? I don't see any reason why retraining wouldn't work.

Because it would make taking the first level in Mystic Theurge illegal (you couldn't have qualified for it at the time you took the level). It doesn't take into account how you are at present, but how you were when you took the original feat.

The Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos doesn't do that. As long as you qualify at present, you're good.

[Story]

Retraining says you must fufill the prerequisites for the feat being retrained. It doesn't say anything about retraining away a feat that was a prereq for something else.

Perhaps some of the confusion comes because there's two different ways to retrain a feat that you got as a bonus feat from a class feature. You can retrain it as per feat retraining or as per class feature retraining. Class feature retraining requires that your choice doesn't invalidate later ones, but feat retraining has no such restriction.

[Pippin]

Since the build allows many feats, I've been wondering:

With the latest errata of PHB2 (here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)) not disallowing adding -1s with Arcane Thesis, and with the Dweomerkeeper's Cloak of mysteries, one could theoretically put together Repeat Spell (+3-1-1) and Invisible Spell (+0-1) for a final level adjustment of +0.

If this trick is used on Wish, how much XP would the character need to pay? What if he casts it along with the Supernatural Spell class feature?

[VisitingDaGulag]

I thought of taking metamagic feats, but then, anyone would rather use Planar Bubble for free metamagic all the time.How do you plan to be "native" to such an plane? What plane exactly is that?

[Pippin]

How do you plan to be "native" to such an plane? What plane exactly is that?
I asked this very question a few days ago:


Just reincarnate on that plane. Presto you are native.

Or

Craft a construct there and have it be the center of the planar buble, presto it's native and you are not (which is what you want)

That plane would be your personal plane, as per the Genesis spell.

[Taelas]

Unclear. The metamagic feat does not address component costs.

Supernatural Spell specifically still requires XP costs, so that one does nothing for wish.

I would personally rule that a repeated wish wouldn't work. Gets too complicated too fast.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Damn. I don't like to look of eye stalks though ;_;

You can try a generous reading of Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species page 39). You'd still need a form with ten 'somethings', to stand in for spellstalks, but they could probably be a medusa's snake heads or something similar.

[Gün]

Can they look like verdant spheres of Kael'thas Sunstrider? Aww yis

http://i.imgur.com/qDuVV5T.jpg
Artist link: http://angju.deviantart.com/art/Kael-thas-Sunstrider-483812135

Edit: Spoilered the image.

[Pippin]

Unclear. The metamagic feat does not address component costs.

Supernatural Spell specifically still requires XP costs, so that one does nothing for wish.

I would personally rule that a repeated wish wouldn't work. Gets too complicated too fast.
Supernatural Spells require no components. Did you read the class feature?


Can they look like verdant spheres of Kael'thas Sunstrider? Aww yis

http://i.imgur.com/qDuVV5T.jpg
Artist link: http://angju.deviantart.com/art/Kael-thas-Sunstrider-483812135

Edit: Spoilered the image.
I'd suggest creating your own spell for that. I too have a problem with playing an ugly thing as a character, so I'd rather go homebrew.

[Taelas]

Supernatural Spells require no components. Did you read the class feature?

I was AFBs and remembered incorrectly, it seems.