Dire Eagle Animal Companion- what level?

[Hiro Quester]

In Races of Stone (p. 187) the Dire Eagle is listed as available as an animal companion for level 4 Druid.

In the Player's Handbook II (p. 41), it's listed as available at level 7, though.

How do I tell which takes precedence?

[nyjastul69]

Have you checked the errata for both books? If they are silent on the matter I would probably go with the most recent source. In this case it's PH2.

ETA: You might want to see how it compares to other animals on those respective lists.

[Troacctid]

The more recent source generally takes precedence, although it seems there was an editing error here somewhere, as the companions previously listed at a different level are supposed to be marked in PHB2 with an asterisk, and the dire eagle is not.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to think that races of stone would take precedence, given that it's the primary source on the topic of dire eagle placement. It would be a different matter if the PHB II used that asterisk that indicates that they did it before at a different level, but it seems that they just misread it. This is also supported by the fact that the dire eagle isn't all that far ahead of the dire bat. The bat's worse at hitting stuff, has lower HP, and loses some flight speed, but in exchange you get AC, blindsense, and increased maneuverability. Pretty comparable pair of companions, I think.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Per the Primary Source rules contained in the errata for all three core rulebooks, if a TABLE entry and a TEXT description disagree with each other, the TEXT description overrules the TABLE entry every time. Since the TEXT description in Races of Stone says it's a 'level -3' companion, the TABLE entry in PH2 is invalid where it disagrees.


Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a
table entry.

[LoyalPaladin]

Per the Primary Source rules contained in the errata for all three core rulebooks, if a TABLE entry and a TEXT description disagree with each other, the TEXT description overrules the TABLE entry every time. Since the TEXT description in Races of Stone says it's a 'level -3' companion, the TABLE entry in PH2 is invalid where it disagrees.
Yeah, I could get behind this. I'm a big fan of Text>Table anyways.

[Hiro Quester]

Per the Primary Source rules contained in the errata for all three core rulebooks, if a TABLE entry and a TEXT description disagree with each other, the TEXT description overrules the TABLE entry every time. Since the TEXT description in Races of Stone says it's a 'level -3' companion, the TABLE entry in PH2 is invalid where it disagrees.

Good point. That seems the best explanation and reason for ignoring the PHBII version.

There are no mentions in errata that I can find.

My main issue is that PHBII is in the books for our game, but ROS isn't. But things explicitly mentioned in PHBII can be "grandfathered" in, if the DM thinks they are appropriate.

It's still a tossup between Dire Eagle and Dire Bat (my riding dog got killed, and I'm still druid 6). But it's nice to have the option. Thanks all!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a Fleshraker dinosaur from MM3, it's also 'level -3' but it's even stronger than the Dire Eagle.

You can take the feat Natural Bond in Complete Adventurer, and since your own effects are applied in the most beneficial order, you can apply a 'level -3' or a 'level -6' before Natural Bond to negate some or all of that penalty. Furthermore, the minimum Druid level stated for a given companion is in table form, whereas the text of the Animal Companion class feature requires that you only be a Druid of 4th level or higher, and that your adjusted Druid level is not below zero for taking that animal companion. A Druid 4 with Natural Bond can get a 'level -6' companion because he fulfills all the requirements stated in the text, regardless of the table's quick-reference minimum level.

[Troacctid]

Furthermore, the minimum Druid level stated for a given companion is in table form, whereas the text of the Animal Companion class feature requires that you only be a Druid of 4th level or higher, and that your adjusted Druid level is not below zero for taking that animal companion. A Druid 4 with Natural Bond can get a 'level -6' companion because he fulfills all the requirements stated in the text, regardless of the table's quick-reference minimum level.

Read the feat again--it only raises your effective level for the purposes of bonus hit dice and such for your existing companion. It does nothing to allow you to choose a higher level companion than you otherwise would.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Read the feat again--it only raises your effective level for the purposes of bonus hit dice and such for your existing companion. It does nothing to allow you to choose a higher level companion than you otherwise would.


A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)

A Druid 4 with Natural Bond can have a 'level -6' companion because the adjustment does not reduce his effective druid level to 0 or lower. The 'X level or higher' headers on the TABLE are only for ease of reference, and do not override the requirements in the TEXT for whether or not a druid can have a companion from a given list.

[eggynack]

Read the feat again--it only raises your effective level for the purposes of bonus hit dice and such for your existing companion. It does nothing to allow you to choose a higher level companion than you otherwise would.
Yeah, natural bond definitely doesn't work like that for a number of reasons. You can't really get the companion such that natural bond will apply and allow you to get them, for one thing, and the "level -6" is very clearly accompanied by a "level 7", which indicates that level is a prerequisite, rather than just something that is penalized. Your way is also a good one of coming to this conclusion, as higher level companions is in no way a bonus that your companion receives. There are things that do this, for example the awful beastmaster class, but this isn't one of them.

Edit:
A Druid 4 with Natural Bond can have a 'level -6' companion because the adjustment does not reduce his effective druid level to 0 or lower. The 'X level or higher' headers on the TABLE are only for ease of reference, and do not override the requirements in the TEXT for whether or not a druid can have a companion from a given list.
Natural bond impacts effective druid level for very specific purposes. Those purposes are, in whole, "Bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives." Higher level animal companion is not among those purposes. And, again, you apply natural bond after you already have the companion, rather than before, because before doesn't even make sense.

[nyjastul69]

Yeah, natural bond definitely doesn't work like that for a number of reasons. You can't really get the companion such that natural bond will apply and allow you to get them, for one thing, and the "level -6" is very clearly accompanied by a "level 7", which indicates that level is a prerequisite, rather than just something that is penalized. Your way is also a good one of coming to this conclusion, as higher level companions is in no way a bonus that your companion receives. There are things that do this, for example the awful beastmaster class, but this isn't one of them.

Edit:
Natural bond impacts effective druid level for very specific purposes. Those purposes are, in whole, "Bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives." Higher level animal companion is not among those purposes. And, again, you apply natural bond after you already have the companion, rather than before, because before doesn't even make sense.

While you may or may not be correct about the header being a prerequisite, I think it actually makes sense. The prerequisite for NB is a AC. That is all. A 1st level Druid might very well make that decision based upon future feat considerations. They are a feat starved class. It's similar to a Wizard choosing a MM feat that won't be fully utilized until a higher level. Feat prerequisites can make choosing a suboptimal feat at lower levels a wise choice at higher levels.

[Troacctid]

While you may or may not be correct about the header being a prerequisite, I think it actually makes sense. The prerequisite for NB is a AC. That is all. A 1st level Druid might very well make that decision based upon future feat considerations. They are a feat starved class. It's similar to a Wizard choosing a MM feat that won't be fully utilized until a higher level. Feat prerequisites can make choosing a suboptimal feat at lower levels a wise choice at higher levels.

It's not taking the feat early that doesn't make sense, it's applying it early. That would mean, like, the animal would get bonus HD and extra tricks before it even meets you. Which is pretty silly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not taking the feat early that doesn't make sense, it's applying it early. That would mean, like, the animal would get bonus HD and extra tricks before it even meets you. Which is pretty silly.

The animal companion doesn't gain any benefits of being an animal companion until it is one, so nothing is ever applied before it meets you. Natural Bond is applied to your own character for determining the effects of your own animal companion class feature, it's the class feature that provides a benefit to the animal companion.

[eggynack]

There's still the other major issue, that that text you quoted does not in any way contradict the table. So, the text says, "If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion," but that in no way means that, if the adjustment wouldn't reduce your effective level to zero or lower, then you can have that as a companion. Thus, the headers of each set of companions can still act as a source of prerequisites without conflicting anything. This whole idea just doesn't seem to add up on any level. There's a way the game lets you have higher level companions, and this isn't it.

[Taelas]

The feat has a prerequisite: having an animal companion. (Not the animal companion class feature: an actual companion.) When you lose the prerequisite (i.e., you lose your animal companion), the feat's benefits are suspended until you get a new one. So a 4th level druid cannot use Natural Bond to acquire an animal companion that reduces your effective druid level by 6.


There's still the other major issue, that that text you quoted does not in any way contradict the table. So, the text says, "If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion," but that in no way means that, if the adjustment wouldn't reduce your effective level to zero or lower, then you can have that as a companion. Thus, the headers of each set of companions can still act as a source of prerequisites without conflicting anything. This whole idea just doesn't seem to add up on any level. There's a way the game lets you have higher level companions, and this isn't it.

:smallconfused:

The only stipulation as to whether an animal qualifies for an animal companion is that the effective druid level does not equal 0 or lower. If you from some source got a bonus to your effective druid level with animal companions (which isn't Natural Bond for the reason stated above) then you absolutely could apply it to get a higher level animal companion early.

It's this sentence in particular which confuses me: "that in no way means that, if the adjustment wouldn't reduce your effective level to zero or lower, then you can have that as a companion." That is exactly what it does mean.

[eggynack]

:smallconfused:

The only stipulation as to whether an animal qualifies for an animal companion is that the effective druid level does not equal 0 or lower. If you from some source got a bonus to your effective druid level with animal companions (which isn't Natural Bond for the reason stated above) then you absolutely could apply it to get a higher level animal companion early.

It's this sentence in particular which confuses me: "that in no way means that, if the adjustment wouldn't reduce your effective level to zero or lower, then you can have that as a companion." That is exactly what it does mean.
No, it is a stipulation, but it is not the only stipulation. If you look at the actual section for animal companions, you will note that there is not only a listing of the penalty applied, but also a listing of a level, which is the level you need to be to have the companion. Even were your penalty not reduced to zero for whatever reason, you would still need to meet that requirement to take the companion. Or, considered another way, you need that to be your effective druid level for the purposes of the animal companion you select to be the level listed. Beastmaster alters your level for that purpose, while natural bond does not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The feat has a prerequisite: having an animal companion. (Not the animal companion class feature: an actual companion.) When you lose the prerequisite (i.e., you lose your animal companion), the feat's benefits are suspended until you get a new one. So a 4th level druid cannot use Natural Bond to acquire an animal companion that reduces your effective druid level by 6.

That's not what it says:


Prerequisite: Animal companion.

A Druid 1 has a class feature called Animal Companion, and the feat's prerequisites do not differentiate between the class feature and the companion granted by the class feature. This is different from similar things, such as those that require the ability to summon a familiar and having a familiar, and there's no ambiguity because the class feature is actually called Summon Familiar. Natural Bond requires something by the name of Animal Companion, which could be fulfilled by either the class feature or the animal companion itself. The feat's benefits are not lost when you don't currently have an animal serving as your animal companion, because you still have the class feature by the same name.

[Taelas]

If your effective druid level isn't 0 or lower, then by inference, it is 1 or higher. If after a -6 adjustment it still isn't 0 or lower, then it must be 7 or higher. But that is not what the text explicitly says, and the text trumps the table. I doubt it is going to matter, but it is possible. (If Natural Bond wasn't limited in what it affected with regards to the animal companion, and the requirement was the class feature rather than the animal companion itself, it'd be relevant, but that isn't the case.)


That's not what it says:



A Druid 1 has a class feature called Animal Companion, and the feat's prerequisites do not differentiate between the class feature and the companion granted by the class feature. This is different from similar things, such as those that require the ability to summon a familiar and having a familiar, and there's no ambiguity because the class feature is actually called Summon Familiar. Natural Bond requires something by the name of Animal Companion, which could be fulfilled by either the class feature or the animal companion itself. The feat's benefits are not lost when you don't currently have an animal serving as your animal companion, because you still have the class feature by the same name.

Even if it isn't, it still doesn't work: Natural Bond explicitly affects a character's effective druid level for determining "bonus Hit Dice, natural tricks, special abilities and other benefits an animal companion receives". It does not affect the level at which you can acquire an animal companion.

[eggynack]

If your effective druid level isn't 0 or lower, then by inference, it is 1 or higher. If after a -6 adjustment it still isn't 0 or lower, then it must be 7 or higher. But that is not what the text explicitly says, and the text trumps the table. I doubt it is going to matter, but it is possible.
Effective druid level for what purpose? If the effective druid level listed in the animal companion class feature is indicative of all purposes, including the companion you can select, then your effective druid level is indeed zero or lower, at least partially. The feat applies to a bunch of things including that, after all, so if that effective druid level is inclusive of that stat, then that means that natural bond clearly doesn't work. If the effective druid level listed in the class feature only applies to the bonuses, then that leaves the list of alternative companions room to carve out a new path in its level listings, which means that there's nothing in the text to trump the table, and it still doesn't work. It works either way.