Merging Autohypnosis into Concentration

[ComaVision]

Yesterday, my brother was lamenting about how few functions the skill Concentration has. I replied, "Yeah, everything you think you could do with high Concentration is in Autohypnosis."

Personally, I've never been in a group where anyone had Autohypnosis as a skill but the effects are kind of interesting. Do you think it is reasonable to merge them together? Do you foresee any abuses with this?

[Flickerdart]

It makes casters more powerful, but not by a lot.

[ComaVision]

It makes casters more powerful, but not by a lot.

Absolutely, but it gives the skill some utility for non-casters at the same time. I think it's more of an increase to Warblades and Crusaders than to casters.

[eggynack]

It makes casters more powerful, but not by a lot.
By at least a decent amount, I'd think. Concentration is one of the best caster skills, and if autohypnosis were an option for them, I'm sure a good amount of casters would take it. It's kinda an extra skill point per level and awesome skill known for casters on that basis, where for other classes it's just the skill known. I'd be somewhat more inclined to just swap concentration for autohypnosis on classes where the former is irrelevant.

[Troacctid]

The most interesting thing you can do with Autohypnosis is memorize stuff, and that's a DC 15 check that's usually done outside combat, so you can take 10. With the +2 synergy bonus from Concentration, it's pretty trivial to make it an auto-success just with cross-class ranks. In fact, it's more like a skill trick, really.

[Flickerdart]

By at least a decent amount, I'd think.
Compared to the things that make casters strong, "memorize a page of text" doesn't really ping on the radar.

[lytokk]

Compared to the things that make casters strong, "memorize a page of text" doesn't really ping on the radar.

don't wizards technically memorize more than a single page of text every morning?

[ComaVision]

don't wizards technically memorize more than a single page of text every morning?

Each spell is a page, so yes. Mind you, they only memorize it until they cast it.

[eggynack]

Compared to the things that make casters strong, "memorize a page of text" doesn't really ping on the radar.
Kinda true, but I think the whole setup is at least somewhat relevant, especially at the lower levels. Like, when the wizard is saying, "I can do anything in reality, and also memorize a page of text," the second part of that sentence doesn't even come close to pinging, but when the wizard is saying, "I can apply something between a save or suck and a save or lose a couple of times a day, and maybe toss a utility spell out too, and also memorize a page of text," that last part starts seeming relevant. After all, at levels one through five or so, the wizard and his hulking barbarian friend are hanging out at something akin to parity, and adding some skills definitely changes things a bit in that range.

Also consider the fact that the skill does have some other uses that aren't complete non-objects. Like, the things it does aren't massive, but if you already have the skill then ignoring caltrops or overcoming fear are basically abilities you pick up for free. They're free actions, and unlike the poison thing which replaces a save, autohypnosis gives an entirely new form of resistance that just wasn't happening prior. This stuff is obviously not great, but it's not horrible either, and they're most relevant in that same low level range. That might be the ultimate conclusion, that this is an alright thing to do at high levels, but might give casters an advantage that's too large in low level games.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ehh... it's not much of a power boost. Apart from Resist Fear-- and casters are probably already good there, with high Will saves-- and maaaybe resist poison, most of the the functions are so niche as to be worthless. If you're worried about it, remove the poison/fear resistance, but overall I think you're fine.

[Rijan_Sai]

Each spell is a page per spell level, so yes. Mind you, they only memorize it until they cast it.

Fix'd that for ya! (...sorry, OCD takeover...)

But yeah, just checked the description for Autohypnosism and I don't really see anything that benefits casters in any significant way over non-casters...

...however, after reading eggynack's recent post, I can see why giving it to them for free might be a little overboard.

[Cruiser1]

I've never been in a group where anyone had Autohypnosis as a skill
All my characters put a single skill point into Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm), because it gives a definite power gain for little cost. It's trained only, so you need at least one point to use it. Other good uses of it are:

0 hp: If you're disabled with 0 hp, normally any standard action drops you unconscious. With a DC 20 Autohypnosis check, you can take actions without losing hp (and you get to make the check before deciding whether to take any strenuous action).

Stabilize: If you're dying with negative hp, normally you have a flat 10% chance to become stable. With Autohypnosis, this can instead be DC 20 check. For example, with WIS 16 you make it on an 17-20, so stabilize at 20% or have doubled your chances. With other buffs that can be much higher.

[mabriss lethe]

Also check out some of the epic uses the skill provides:


[DC 30:] If reduced to negative hit points but not dead, make a Autohypnosis check. If successful, the character does not go unconscious and can continue taking actions until he or she bleeds to death or stabilizes (the character can also continue making stabilization checks). If healed or stabilized, the character continues to take actions normally.

[DC 50]: If a failed saving throw indicates the character is affected by any mind-affecting powers, spells, or spell-like effects, a successful Autohypnosis check allows an immediate second saving throw to resist the effect. If the mind-affecting effect normally does not allow a saving throw, a successful Autohypnosis check allows a saving throw.

[DC 60]: With a successful Autohypnosis check, the character gains temporary hit points equal to 10 + his or her Wisdom modifier. The temporary hit points persist until lost. A character cannot check for temporary hit points more than once per day. Temporary hit points gained through Autohypnosis do not stack with temporary hit points gained through any other source

[DC 60]: On a successful Autohypnosis check, the character gains damage reduction 2/-. The damage reduction lasts for 12 hours. The character cannot check for damage reduction more than once per day. Damage reduction gained through Autohypnosis does not stack with damage reduction gained through any other source.

[SinsI]

don't wizards technically memorize more than a single page of text every morning?
I always thought it is not memorization but actual casting of 99% of the spell (at least for spells with "casting time" of 1 round or less). Otherwise it is impossible to justify how something as incredibly hard as casting a spell can be done as fast as swinging a sword.

[Kraken]

Yeah, the DC 30 check to act normally while disable/dying is what I came in here to post. If you merge it with concentration you'll probably okay, but that particular use of the skill can make some nasty tricks much easier. Delay death (SpC) comes to mind.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a free power boost to casters, so hell no should you do it. And Concentration *is* a good skill! Every caster maxes it! Do you think they're wasting their skill ranks in some strange universal effort to self-nerf themselves?

If you want to add Autohypnosis to another skill, pick a weaker skill. Like....just about any other skill. How about Sense Motive? Makes about as much sense as Concentration, and at least that's Wis-based, too.

Sidenote: "Well, it's nothing compared to other way more broken stuff casters can do" as rationale for caster buffs, added up over time, is a large part of the reason casters end up so broken in the first place!.

/apparently-badly-needed-public-service-announcement :smalleek:

[Galvin]

Not only casters have Concentration on their class skill list, the Tomb of Battle characters have access to it on their lists, as well as a few others. Thinking about that more, I think it could be kind of cool to add the Autohypnosis options to concentration on the condition that only Tomb of Battle characters could actually use those functions. That would be kind of cool, it sort of fits with their theme, and it wouldn't trivalize the core melee classes at all, because if you allow Tome of Battle, you've already done that. :smalltongue:

Also, considering what full casters can actually do with their spells, the Autohypnosis functions pale in comparison.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's more than just memorizing pages...

It also means you will always automatically stabilize when bleeding out, and can cast at 0 hp and be just fine.
You're also immune to 2ndary poison effects, which may actually matter if combat goes long enough that the party hasn't the time to spam heal checks to remove it.

That's all useful, albeit situational. The REAL winner is the immunity to fear. Anyone who's played D&D for a while has had a character removed from a combat because they got panicked/frightened and had to run away. It really sucks. With Autohypnosis maxed out, that will pretty much never happen.
That alone makes it worth putting ranks into. But wait, I forgot, on internet discussion boards, every character is already 20th level and spends each morning putting up Hero's Feast and a dozen other all-day buffs, and no other characters exist. Silly me, Autohynosis *is* useless!

[ComaVision]

To clarify, I play mostly at lower levels and have never had a character over level 11 in my games.

If a caster is failing will saves for fear they have bigger issues and could probably use the little boost.

I also disagree that Concentration is a good skill, it may as well be a scaling part of every caster class because there isn't a real option to not take it. It's a "skill tax". It may feel justified because of all the feat taxes that mundanes have but it's a boring mechanic.

All that being said, with particular regard to eggynack, I have been swayed against the conversion. I'd rather not offer it for only mundanes because it's cross-class for either skill anyway.

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not all casters are wis-based. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and others often dump stat Wis and rely on their high base save to still be decent at them.

Concentration is not a skill tax at all, it gives you options you logically shouldn't have normally. It lets you cast freely of foes directly in your face, and even lets you cast some spells while being wrestled to the ground! But if you hate Concentration, you could always go back to the older edition way of handling casting under threat. Those casters would LOVE to pay the "tax."

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe let characters use Autohypnosis in place of Concentration, and make it a class skill for everyone who already has Concentration except full casters? Then ToB characters and other non-casters who would be putting points into Concentration (are there even any other classes that want/need it?) would get the benefits of Autohypnosis alongside those of Concentration, and casters would have to spend a feat and a level (dip into initiator class plus Able Learner) to access it.

[Troacctid]

Frankly, if you're going to be rebalancing skills like that, Autohypnosis is way, way down the list of skills that need it. It's hard for me to see singling it out for a fix when Appraise, Climb/Jump/Swim, Craft, Disguise, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Forgery, Open Lock, Profession, and Use Rope are all right there, making sad faces.

"Caw! But what about the +3 bonus to Appraise that you're getting from your trusty (and might I add extremely handsome) raven familiar?"

Yes, your skill boost is very generous, Edgar, but most adventurers don't have much use for Appraise checks, and if they do, the DC is so low as to be trivial. Nobody ever puts ranks in it.

"Caw, caw, and maybe you'd rather have a magnifying glass as your familiar, too. You never appreciate me!"

I bet a magnifying glass wouldn't interrupt my forum posts or make a mess on my keyboard, unlike some birds I know.