How does a highly optimized Wu Jen work?

[Kazyan]

The Sorcerer vs. Wizard threads got me thinking: What are the differences between a high-op Wu Jen and a high-op Wizard? I mean, at a certain point, the answer is "Thought Bottle to become a Wizard and proceed as previously discussed so that there are no differences", but there's plenty of room below that and I don't think I've ever seen a Wu Jen show up in anything more than mild-op, though I know it's happened.

Is there anything unique about what a Wu Jen would do in TO, borderline PO, or high PO in comparison to a Wizard?

[Zaq]

Their most abusable spell that Wizards don't also get is probably Body Outside Body. The clones you make with it can't cast spells or use spell trigger/completion items, but there's no restriction on them using SLAs or Su abilities. The easiest trick is to use Archmage to get a handy SLA or two, but really, in high-op, anything that starts with a bunch of copies of you is going to be pretty handy. (I forget if you can go recursive by getting Body Outside Body as an SLA, or if there's some catch that makes that not work.) The duration (a flat 1 minute) is kind of a downer, but still, the potential for abuse is there.

Beyond that, I don't know of many Wu Jen-specific tricks. I know that they're the only ones to get Giant Size and Minute Form, but I don't know how useful those are in a true high-op scenario. To be honest, I've never seen an actual Wu Jen in play, no matter what the op level, so I'm just going off of what I've heard other people discussing.

[mabriss lethe]

Body outside of Body is also tremendous fun on a Jade Phoenix Mage build, since you suddenly have a small army who still possess all of your maneuvers even if they can't cast spells.

[gorfnab]

Body outside of Body is also tremendous fun on a Jade Phoenix Mage build, since you suddenly have a small army who still possess all of your maneuvers even if they can't cast spells.
Also the spell Transcend Mortality combos with JPM ability Emerald Immolation.

[ben-zayb]

Aww. So you do care after all. :smallwink:

Aside from BOB TO abuse that also lead to infinities, maybe the Spirit Binding line can also be abused?

^ Transcend Mortality + Spellguard of Silverymoon is fun at PO.

[Tvtyrant]

Aww. So you do care after all. :smallwink:

Aside from BOB TO abuse that also lead to infinities, maybe the Spirit Binding line can also be abused?

^ Transcend Mortality + Spellguard of Silverymoon is fun at PO.
Spirit binding gets you the highest HD cap, and is amazing. There is a handbook with the best binds in it somewhere, I think in the Spirit Shaman handbook? But Rakshasa and other sorcerer monsters are in line to be bound, so a PO op Wu-Jen gets the wizard spell line anyways. EDIThttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247397-Let-s-talk-about-Spirit-Ally-Binding!

[WhamBamSam]

Spirit binding gets you the highest HD cap, and is amazing. There is a handbook with the best binds in it somewhere, I think in the Spirit Shaman handbook? But Rakshasa and other sorcerer monsters are in line to be bound, so a PO op Wu-Jen gets the wizard spell line anyways. EDIThttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247397-Let-s-talk-about-Spirit-Ally-Binding!You can also access a lot of Sor/Wiz stuff via Spellpool by going Mage of the Arcane Order.

[Chronos]

Note that Body Outside Body is persistable, if you have any way of persisting without the level increase (Incantatrix or Anima Mage or whatever).

[Sith_Happens]

(I forget if you can go recursive by getting Body Outside Body as an SLA, or if there's some catch that makes that not work.)

There's a soft limitation in that each duplicate starts with a quarter as many current hit points as its creator, which means that every iteration after the first few is going to be created with 0 hit points and be disabled (though you can heal them).

[dextercorvia]

So, if we use an unlimited feat trick, then you can use Innate Spell enough times to have every spell you know as a SLA, so when you persist Body Outside Body, all your copies have access to your entire spell list.

[Taelas]

There are some tricks involving giant size, I think. (It's worded somewhat poorly.)

[ben-zayb]

So, if we use an unlimited feat trick, then you can use Innate Spell enough times to have every spell you know as a SLA, so when you persist Body Outside Body, all your copies have access to your entire spell list.

Well, if we go that route, why not just go straight Supernatural Transformation (Innate Spell (Wish))? Sure you'd need DWK or Void Disciple cheese, but you also get Stats: Yes as a benefit for doing so.

[Story]

Aren't Inherent bonuses still limited to +5 pre epic?

[Pluto!]

Spirit binding gets you the highest HD cap, and is amazing. There is a handbook with the best binds in it somewhere, I think in the Spirit Shaman handbook?

I did a bunch of work on that in the OA Shaman handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13489944&postcount=5), but the updated forum's allergy to the old forum's tables makes most of the index unusable, and I don't have that kind of time anymore (or access to that account).

Plus my soft copy of the index is gone. :/

[Uncle Pine]

Wu Jen has also access to Arboreal Transformation, which is a solid and flavourful save-and-lose: fail the save and you become a treant under the Wu Jen commands, succeed on the save and you are slowed for 1 day/level (or 1 round/level, the exact duration is debatable).

Also, I don't think that anyone mentioned that while Trascend Mortality comboes wells with Jade Phoenix Mage's Emerald Immolation, Body Outside Body comboes with it better, as Emerald Immolation isn't a spell. Which means that each casting of Body Outside Body nets you CL/5 20d6 fire/divine damage living bombs with maneuvers (White Raven Tactics?) on top of that.

A highly optimized Wu Jen would also abuse the fact that while clones created through Body Outside Body can't cast spells, they can manifest power freely, as well as make use of any alternative magic system ever conceived.

Moreover, since almost all higly optimized Wu Jen build seems do rely on a single (or a couple of) class-specific spell(s), a highly optimized Wu Jen is actually a Wizard with a 2 (or 4) levels dip into Wyrm Wyzard.

[Kraken]

Wu jens do offer some advantages over wizards in terms of class features. If scribe scroll isn't your style, you're given a free bonus metamagic feat at level 1. Additionally, spell secrets offer some use if you want to be able to be sure that verbal or somatic components won't be a problem for a particular spell in a jam.

[Sith_Happens]

Wu jens do offer some advantages over wizards in terms of class features. If scribe scroll isn't your style, you're given a free bonus metamagic feat at level 1. Additionally, spell secrets offer some use if you want to be able to be sure that verbal or somatic components won't be a problem for a particular spell in a jam.

Don't forget that Spirit Binding is like Planar Binding except probably even better.

[ben-zayb]

There's a soft limitation in that each duplicate starts with a quarter as many current hit points as its creator, which means that every iteration after the first few is going to be created with 0 hit points and be disabled (though you can heal them).

I was actually wondering if being Shapechanged into a Legion Devil (FC2) can bypass this limit by virtue of sharing pooling your clones' and your HP pool together. As a bonus, you get all delicious Legion Devil abilities that work sorta exponentially with more clones.

Check Fevral in my sig below for a gestalt Wu Jen that can do infinity tricks without level 9th spells shenanigans.

[Chronos]

Nitpick: Quadratically, not exponentially.

But yeah, those abilities are nice. Get a large enough group, and you'll never miss an attack roll except on a 1, and you'll nearly always get a natural 20 on saves vs. anything mind-effecting or that effects the whole group.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, if we go that route, why not just go straight Supernatural Transformation (Innate Spell (Wish))? Sure you'd need DWK or Void Disciple cheese, but you also get Stats: Yes as a benefit for doing so.

There's Void Disciple cheese? What is it?

[Kantolin]

To be fair, while a wizard can do most(/all?) of a wu jen's tricks... couldn't you just build a wu jen who is essentially a slightly worse wizard?

I mean, 'slightly worse wizard' isn't too bad bad when you're in crazy theoretical optimization and chain gating solars and stuff. So couldn't you just do whatever wizards do to be highly optimized, and thus be a 'very slightly worse' highly optimized tier 1? Sure, you're missing some of the spells, but you have enough of them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

To be fair, while a wizard can do most(/all?) of a wu jen's tricks... couldn't you just build a wu jen who is essentially a slightly worse wizard?

I mean, 'slightly worse wizard' isn't too bad bad when you're in crazy theoretical optimization and chain gating solars and stuff. So couldn't you just do whatever wizards do to be highly optimized, and thus be a 'very slightly worse' highly optimized tier 1? Sure, you're missing some of the spells, but you have enough of them.

The Wu Jen list is actually pretty small. You're not missing some of the spells, you're missing most of them, including pretty much all of the "game-breaker" spells that make wizards the kings of D&D.

There are a few gems there that people talk about (mostly Body outside Body, Giant Size, Arboreal Transformation and Transcend Mortality) but aside from that it doesn't even have most of the staples of the core wizard list.

Sure, there's ways to get access to those spells, but they're generally expensive. At least more expensive than getting the 1-4 spells you want from Wu Jen on your wizard somehow.

[WhamBamSam]

The Wu Jen list is actually pretty small. You're not missing some of the spells, you're missing most of them, including pretty much all of the "game-breaker" spells that make wizards the kings of D&D.

There are a few gems there that people talk about (mostly Body outside Body, Giant Size, Arboreal Transformation and Transcend Mortality) but aside from that it doesn't even have most of the staples of the core wizard list.

Sure, there's ways to get access to those spells, but they're generally expensive. At least more expensive than getting the 1-4 spells you want from Wu Jen on your wizard somehow.I think you're mostly right, and there are other relatively major things the Wizard gets that the Wu Jen doesn't (Uncanny Forethought, anyone?) as well, Wu Jen do have the Polymorph line, Teleport line, an analogue for the Planar Binding line, Wish, Gate, and a good number of other Wizard classics.

It's also worth pointing out that it's at least a little bit easier to get Wizard spells as a Wu Jen than to get Wu Jen spells as a Wizard. Apart from the more permissive reading of Extra Spell, I don't really know any ways for a Wizard to get hold of Wu Jen spells apart from Wyrm Wizard (which loses some casting progression). By contrast, the Wu Jen's methods of list expansion (Spirit Binding abuse, Spellpool, etc.) do allow access to Wizard spells without loss of casting even if they do have some issues and limitations.

[dextercorvia]

The easiest way for a Wizard to get access to all level 7 and below Wu Jen spells is gaining access to Miracle.

[Kraken]

The easiest way for a Wizard to get access to all level 7 and below Wu Jen spells is gaining access to Miracle.

A fair point, as miracle as worth pursuing as a spell for wizards all on its own. Wu jens do still get body outside body at level 13, though, 4 levels ahead of when you'd normally be able to cast miracle via arcane disciple or whatever. Though body outside body is a conjuration (creation) spell, and so shadowcasters could get it early pretty easily, with plenty of levels to spare for incantatrix persist shenanigans.

[Story]

Aren't Shadowcasters horribly underpowered? Or do you mean Shadow Conjuration?

[Extra Anchovies]

Aren't Shadowcasters horribly underpowered? Or do you mean Shadow Conjuration?

Probably one of the shadow-based PrCs or something.

Also, Shadowcaster is only horribly underpowered if you're expecting them to be on the same level as Sorcerers. Their main issue is a lack of "spells" per day, which (among other issues) is resolved in the fixes suggested by the designer (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu&p=3273239&viewfull=1#post3273239).

[ben-zayb]

There's Void Disciple cheese? What is it?
Have on of your clones give you the epic feat Improved Heighten Spell. Use metamagic shenanigans such as clones + incantatrix. Chaos Shuffle (Wish SLAs from clones can offset XP penalty) the ff: Extra Slot to get a high level spell slot, Innate Spell and the prerequisite feats if you don't have them to get at will Wish SLA, and Supernatural Transformation to get XP-less supernatural Wishes that your clone also now have.


A fair point, as miracle as worth pursuing as a spell for wizards all on its own. Wu jens do still get body outside body at level 13, though, 4 levels ahead of when you'd normally be able to cast miracle via arcane disciple or whatever. Though body outside body is a conjuration (creation) spell, and so shadowcasters could get it early pretty easily, with plenty of levels to spare for incantatrix persist shenanigans.

You can arguably use Miracle as a Wu Jen 13 with clones, heighten spell, arcane disciple(luck), Incantatrix 2, and Shadowcraft Mage 3.

[Kraken]

Aren't Shadowcasters horribly underpowered? Or do you mean Shadow Conjuration?

Yeah, shadowcraft mage as others have pointed out.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A fair point, as miracle as worth pursuing as a spell for wizards all on its own. Wu jens do still get body outside body at level 13, though, 4 levels ahead of when you'd normally be able to cast miracle via arcane disciple or whatever. Though body outside body is a conjuration (creation) spell, and so shadowcasters could get it early pretty easily, with plenty of levels to spare for incantatrix persist shenanigans.

Shadow Conjuration is limited to sorc/wiz spells, as is the Shadowcraft Mage ability, so that won't work.
Either you get it on your list (Knowstones, Wyrm Wizard, Recaster), get it on a Runestaff and UMD it (probably requires cross-class ranks, but you only need to manage DC 20) or you can emulate it with Miracle.

[Kraken]

Ah, right. So basically back to miracle, as early as you're comfortable accessing it via silent image (or whatever).