Do Celestials Get Promoted?

[The Glyphstone]

It's a standard method of advancement in Hell and the Abyss for lower-ranking demons to earn transformations into higher-ranking and more powerful forms, but is there any such system for angels or archons? Can a particularly loyal and successful lantern archon earn an 'upgrade' to a hound or trumpet archon? I couldn't find any good sources pointing one way or the other.

[atemu1234]

Like most things the players weren't really supposed to fight (the original rules didn't expect as many evil characters as it got, or was designed with the idea most players would be good in mind), the rules are noticeably silent on this matter. Maybe we should ask Afroakuma.

[Brookshw]

Archons, absolutely. After lantern and as you enter the normal Archon progression, each layer (trumpet, sword, hound, etc) has three layers to them, bronze, silver & gold iirc. Progression through the ranks is based on spiritual progression. Once you've worked up through the ranks you hit the next form and start all over again. Planes of Law has the most detailed discussion on the matter.

Angels I don't believe have a set progression in the same manner.

[The Glyphstone]

I'll have to try and track down a copy then.

Angels can be Any Good, so I figured they were the 'next step up' for both Archons (LG) and Eladrin (CG) - but do Eladrin have any sort of advancement this way?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Angels I don't believe have a set progression in the same manner.

In the Sertrous entry of Elder Evils they imply it.The astral deva there was a planetar until he revealed the secret Sertrous told to him;he was then demoted,

[Brookshw]

In the Sertrous entry of Elder Evils they imply it.The astral deva there was a planetar until he revealed the secret Sertrous told to him;he was then demoted,

Sure, I'm just unsure we can say anything generally meaningful about angels as they're "good" but vary across the law/chaos axis. I assume that means their evolution/promotions will vary across a wide spectrum (plus, gods and territories).



Angels can be Any Good, so I figured they were the 'next step up' for both Archons (LG) and Eladrin (CG) - but do Eladrin have any sort of advancement this way? Nah, Angels are their own thing. They all are. I just flipped through some old 2e resources for Eladrin but didn't find anything. I assume it wouldn't be structured but honestly can't recall any solid sources that discuss the matter. Sorry :smallfrown:

[Cruiser1]

In the Sertrous entry of Elder Evils they imply it.The astral deva there was a planetar until he revealed the secret Sertrous told to him;he was then demoted,
Close, actually Avamerin as described in EE was originally a Solar, and afterward he was demonted to Planetar.

[Afgncaap5]

I sort of take a "Yes with an if, no with a but" answer to this question in my cosmology. I don't know if there's a solid RAW answer for all cases, but I treat Angels as sentient manifestations of a deity's will (Angel means "Messenger", after all) and as such the answer for Angels really depends on the deity in question. As for Archons... I don't think we're given as much info on *how* it happens like we are for the evil side of things, but I think so.

[Brookshw]

Okay, correction. I checked Warriors of Heaver (disclaimer, Afro does not endorse some content in the book) and it did have a comment about the Eladrin's, "The mortal celestials - the aasimar, asuras, eladrins and guardinals - do not assume new shapes as they gain experience."

[Bronk]

Okay, correction. I checked Warriors of Heaver (disclaimer, Afro does not endorse some content in the book) and it did have a comment about the Eladrin's, "The mortal celestials - the aasimar, asuras, eladrins and guardinals - do not assume new shapes as they gain experience."

Hmm, first I've heard that eladrins are mortal, despite the 'Children of Androlynne' plot hook. Any indication of a life span?

[Necroticplague]

Hmm, first I've heard that eladrins are mortal, despite the 'Children of Androlynne' plot hook. Any indication of a life span?

I think 'mortal celestial' means that they were made from mortals, not that they are mortals.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Okay, correction. I checked Warriors of Heaver (disclaimer, Afro does not endorse some content in the book) and it did have a comment about the Eladrin's, "The mortal celestials - the aasimar, asuras, eladrins and guardinals - do not assume new shapes as they gain experience."


Hmm, first I've heard that eladrins are mortal, despite the 'Children of Androlynne' plot hook. Any indication of a life span?

I'm just spitballing here, but that may be one of those things that changed with editions. Like gnomes in the Monster Manual, but more so? Summoning Afroakuma may would likely give us some more info on that, but another possibility is that Warriors of Heaven clashes with other sources (2E or 3E) in regards to the information provided. That could be one explanation for why he doesn't endorse parts of it.



It's been years since I've given the Book of Exalted Deeds any close inspection, but I know it has some "unique" celestials listed or at least alludes to them with the Court of Stars and other organizations. Is there anything in those later sections that suggest the possibility or impossibility of transforming into a "higher order" being?

[Marlowe]

Would it be a fair premise that Archons and probably Angels are a Heirarchy of races, while Eladrins are simply a group of races and that they don't change form with status any more than a Human (or and Elf, or an Orc) turns into a different species as he goes up in levels?

[Afgncaap5]

Would it be a fair premise that Archons and probably Angels are a Heirarchy of races, while Eladrins are simply a group of races and that they don't change form with status any more than a Human (or and Elf, or an Orc) turns into a different species as he goes up in levels?

I'd say that it'd depend on cosmology, but... yeah, I could see that working in a lot of the big campaign worlds.

[Taveena]

How about the other aligned Outsiders? Modrons get promoted, I know that, and Slaad can advance by doing... something at their spawning pool (I forget), but Inevitables seem to be born in that one form.

And I have no idea what the hell's going on with Formians.

[Sith_Happens]

Slaad can advance by doing... something at their spawning pool (I forget)

At least in 3.5 it's deliberately left open. Also the form advancement chain only applies to green and up, red and blue slaads are stuck as the same kind forever (though they're also the only kinds that can reproduce).


And I have no idea what the hell's going on with Formians.

Formians are ants, there's no way they aren't born as the variety they're going to be forever.

[Clistenes]

I think 'mortal celestial' means that they were made from mortals, not that they are mortals.

I think the book called those races 'mortal celestials' because they were born from parents instead of being made from promoted petitioners, but many bits of Warriors of Heaven contradicts the Planescape canon.


Archons, absolutely. After lantern and as you enter the normal Archon progression, each layer (trumpet, sword, hound, etc) has three layers to them, bronze, silver & gold iirc. Progression through the ranks is based on spiritual progression. Once you've worked up through the ranks you hit the next form and start all over again. Planes of Law has the most detailed discussion on the matter.

Angels I don't believe have a set progression in the same manner.

I remember reading that. I wonder if the mortals who choose a Path and climb Mount Celestia are awarded a virtual rank of sorts; Lantern Archons consider them as part of their choir, after all.

By the way, I wonder how the whole Archon promotion system interacts with the Path system. There are Archons of every kind living in every layer from Lunia to Jovar. Does a Lantern Archon have to climb all the way from Lunia to Jovar in order to be promoted to Hound Archon, and then is sent back to Lunia to start all again? Or can they be promoted before reaching Jovar?

[Eldan]

Angels, Formians and inevitables all have their own thing, they aren't Exemplars like the rest.

Angels are created and maintained by deities, not the planes. It would depend in the divinity in question.

Inevitables are built. There's not mich more material.

Formians are an invasive Pest, not a native outgrowth of Mechanus.

Modrons are promoted at random and mich of their mind rewritten.

Archons have Hierarchies, up to those more powerful thanSolars.

The poor Eladrin never got enough Material and what they have is wird and contradictory. Like the Eladrin themselves.

[lord_khaine]

Archons have Hierarchies, up to those more powerful than Solars.

Really..? there are achon types above Solar..? :smallconfused:

I kinda thought the next step up from there were more or less lesser deity.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Really..? there are achon types above Solar..? :smallconfused:

I kinda thought the next step up from there were more or less lesser deity.

Solar isn't an archon. The Celestial Hebdomad is stronger than solars (by CR). Some of them lack the solar's cleric casting so they are actually weaker.

Edit: I double checked and they all have cleric 20 casting, so they are stronger than solars. My bad.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also doesn't seem very likely that Modrons are promoted randomly...

[Necroticplague]

Also doesn't seem very likely that Modrons are promoted randomly...

If we want to be technical, they are promoted in an incredibly orderly method. It's just that the pattern is so utterly complicated so as to be unpredictable to those who don't know the will of Mechanus (thus leading to the irony of, from an outsider's point of view, the CN outsiders have a very orderly advancement, while the LN ones have a seemingly chaotic one).

[ZamielVanWeber]

If we want to be technical, they are promoted in an incredibly orderly method. It's just that the pattern is so utterly complicated so as to be unpredictable to those who don't know the will of Mechanus (thus leading to the irony of, from an outsider's point of view, the CN outsiders have a very orderly advancement, while the LN ones have a seemingly chaotic one).

The slaads have the excuse that order is forced on theirs by the Slaad Lords, so no slaad can come to be born strong enough to rival their power.

[Brookshw]

If we want to be technical, they are promoted in an incredibly orderly method. It's just that the pattern is so utterly complicated so as to be unpredictable to those who don't know the will of Mechanus (thus leading to the irony of, from an outsider's point of view, the CN outsiders have a very orderly advancement, while the LN ones have a seemingly chaotic one).

Surprisingly its not necessarily that complicated. Numbers are often fixed and promotions take place to fill gaps. Likewise Modron's can be promoted and demoted based on need, for example Promis's needs a tridrone over there, so a different tridrone elsewhere is demoted and the energy transferred to promote the other. It's sort of a zero sum system.

-----------------

Back to Warriors of Heaven, I couldn't find any reference to ages and agree that the "mortal" quantifier is likely in relation to the kids. Also I noted WoH had a seven pip system as opposed to the three pop system of PoL (extra pips are still metallic, tin, lead, etc). Indeed the book isn't 100% consistent with Planescape (no surprise there, guide to hell also isn't fully compatible).

[The Glyphstone]

Solar isn't an archon. The Celestial Hebdomad is stronger than solars (by CR). Some of them lack the solar's cleric casting so they are actually weaker.

Edit: I double checked and they all have cleric 20 casting, so they are stronger than solars. My bad.

Is there anything between 'Trumpet Archon' and the Hebdomad?

[Bronk]

Thanks for all the clarifications on the eladrins... I use them in my game, and that was freaking me out.

For the Archons... The Trumpet Archons are CR14, and Throne Archons (also in the BoEd) are CR15, so there's that. That looks like the most powerful, after looking through the other books that have archons in them: MMI, MM4, Races of Stone, Complete Psionic, BoED, Planar Handbook, and Tome of Magic.

[afroakuma]

I am summoned

Seriously I have a thread specifically for getting my attention, not to mention a PM inbox, how is it that I had to stumble across this thread on my own? :smallconfused: Y'all are weird.

Anyway!


It's a standard method of advancement in Hell and the Abyss for lower-ranking demons to earn transformations into higher-ranking and more powerful forms, but is there any such system for angels or archons? Can a particularly loyal and successful lantern archon earn an 'upgrade' to a hound or trumpet archon? I couldn't find any good sources pointing one way or the other.

Angels serve at the pleasure of deities and the general ideal of good; it's not impossible that an angel could be "promoted" by divine agency, but as a general practice it does not happen, nor would it make sense in many cases since it would be a divine application of the Peter Principle.

Archons promote normally. It's nice to be Lawful.

Guardinals do not officially promote, nor is there a set hierarchy (although CRs are a decent rule of thumb, leonals are obviously on top and mustevals are described as "lowly").

Eladrin do not officially promote; they have a caste system that stratifies them and puts the tulani, shiere and ghaele above the rest. Strange for a chaotic race, but nobody ever accused TSR of thinking things through with celestials...


Also doesn't seem very likely that Modrons are promoted randomly...

They aren't. To be technically precise, fighting modrons should be an exercise in "oh gods why" since Primus can (and will) promote a proximate modron to keep the balance level - and do so immediately. If you keep offing the decatons while pentadrones are around, you're going to be fighting an awful lot of decatons as they keep getting replaced. So technically the best tactic for fighting modrons is to take them out from weakest to strongest.


Is there anything between 'Trumpet Archon' and the Hebdomad?

Archon hierarchy goes lantern, hound, warden, sword, trumpet, throne and tome. Other archon "types" aren't part of the hierarchy in the traditional way, but would represent alternate roles. "Tome archons" were originally hawk-headed, armored warlords, seven in number, but 3.5 changed "tome archon" to be an alternate title for members of the Hebdomad, who came in to fill a similar role.