Sub-standard Pestige Classes. (3.5 D&D)

[ngilop]

Hey guys, I have a project over on the homebrew forums of GiTP where I take some old 'crappy' prestige classes and give them an update. ( Insert Fixed PRCs Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311379-Insert-fixed-PrC-here!))

Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions on what PrC I could be working on.

I am thinking of working on Reaping Mauler next.

[Extra Anchovies]

Here's a list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) of PrCs, sorted by where they'll move you tier-wise using the normal entry methods.

[ngilop]

Here's a list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) of PrCs, sorted by where they'll move you tier-wise using the normal entry methods.

Yeah, I don't really care how they stack up 'tier' wise. Im asking for PrCs that are crappy.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, I don't really care how they stack up 'tier' wise. Im asking for PrCs that are crappy.


Down Two or More Tiers. These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain. Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
There ya have it. Pick a name off the list and go. There's probably also a number of down one PrCs that could use fixing, but there's a lot more in that category.

If you want specifics, I'd like to see a good Incarnum Blade fix, maybe as a 10-level with full or near-full meldshaping progression.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I love Oozemaster, but that half-casting hurts so badly. Alienist was pretty good in Tome and Blood and became garbage in Complete Arcane. Giving that a facelift would be nice.

[Story]

You could also look at the recent thread about badly designed PRCs.

The problem is that there are several different metrics by which a PRC can fail and the tier system only captures 1 at best (plus the tier list is highly dependent on presumed entry method).

Do you want PRCs that are mechanically broken? That are inconsistent with the fluff? That don't do anything? That are overpowered? Underpowered?

[ngilop]

I love Oozemaster, but that half-casting hurts so badly. Alienist was pretty good in Tome and Blood and became garbage in Complete Arcane. Giving that a facelift would be nice.


I am going to take this time to say one little thing.

please actually pay attention. And do not request a PrC if you haven't at least been decent and respectful enough to read the thread I linked. else you might discover that the freggin' alienist is the very first post. (and side note its one of those +0 'tier' PRCs. I know everybody has a 'tier'-on in GiTP except for me, but try all you can to refrain from just 'tier'ing it up with 'tier'-ing 'tiers'


I already have posted in and read the badly designed PrCs and it boiled down to something that was not even on topic for about 3 pages.

[Tiri]

How about the Dragon Disciple? That always seemed a bit weak to me (tier system aside).

[Extra Anchovies]

And do not request a PrC if you haven't at least been decent and respectful enough to read the thread I linked. else you might discover that the freggin' alienist is the very first post. (and side note its one of those +0 'tier' PRCs.

Hold up. If you already have a thread going for this exact purpose in Homebrew, why are you posting this thread here? Anyone who's interested in homebrew PrC fixes is probably in Homebrew Design anyways.

It's perfectly fine to start a thread to discuss poorly designed prestige classes, but this subforum is for discussing the game in general, not the game except for the parts you fixed over in the Homebrew subforum. Calling someone indecent and disrespectful for mentioning a PrC that they think is bad that you happen to have mentioned in another thread is not conducive to a healthy discussion.


I know everybody has a 'tier'-on in GiTP except for me, but try all you can to refrain from just 'tier'ing it up with 'tier'-ing 'tiers'

The tier system is so widely used because it is an effective means of comparing classes. If class A and class B are designed to do the same thing, and class A does that thing better than class B, then class A is on a higher tier than class B is. And for any prestige class to be considered "crappy", you need to have some means of comparison between it and other prestige classes. Hence the tier-shift list I linked. The list isn't perfect (see below regarding the Alienist), but it's a good place to start if you're looking for PrCs that aren't worth taking.

Regarding the Alienist in particular, what makes it a bad prestige class is that it's meant for summoners, but it makes you worse at summoning by restricting you to beatstick forms, which SNA does better anyways. Gimping a wizard's summoning doesn't make them worse in general, because they can still toss around debuffs, BFC, and SoD effects, but the prestige class doesn't do its job properly and that's what makes it bad.


How about the Dragon Disciple? That always seemed a bit weak to me (tier system aside).

A quick DD fix would be to just backport the Paizo version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple), which is generally considered one of the few Paizo PrCs worth taking (up there with Winter Witch and Mammoth Hunter).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

please actually pay attention. And do not request a PrC if you haven't at least been decent and respectful enough to read the thread I linked. else you might discover that the freggin' alienist is the very first post. (and side note its one of those +0 'tier' PRCs. I know everybody has a 'tier'-on in GiTP except for me, but try all you can to refrain from just 'tier'ing it up with 'tier'-ing 'tiers'


I already have posted in and read the badly designed PrCs and it boiled down to something that was not even on topic for about 3 pages.


There ya have it. Pick a name off the list and go. There's probably also a number of down one PrCs that could use fixing, but there's a lot more in that category.

See, the thing is, the tier list still kind of is on-topic. I understand you don't subscribe to it's information for whatever reason. Yeah, I get you're not going to see Tippyverse Shroedinger wizards who always have the right answer. Beer and pretzel games exist. Games where people just want to experience another world for part of a day exist. But given resources that this board has provided (i.e., those PrCs listed at -2), maybe consider looking there before hounding us about your hangups on some theoretical work describing the game when you start pushing its buttons.



That being said, the "easiest" classes to clean up are probably those that never got updated from 3.0 or were released early in 3.5. In no particular order:


Risen Matyr (BoED), aka "Welp, time for me to leave the game, guys. Rez me maybe?"
Emmaciated Spawn (Savage Species), great idea, but just eating the LA/RHD is better than wasting three levels on this.
Thunder Guide (Explorer's Handbook, Eberron): Oi. Not a whole lot of features, very much linked with the world's fluff, but Lionized in the Press is worth a bad feat and chump change by this level. Also, Serial Hero is dumb. Super dumb. Money is not a real class feature. Being able to make money? Yeah, sure. Abusing money? Again, yes, and we can thank Eberron again for that with the Artificer. But just randomly getting 1000 GP X Cha bonus? No, that is not worth 8 levels in any class.
Every single nonmagical class in Complete Warrior except Exotic Weapon Master. Maybe also Master of the Unseen Hand, but for different reasons.
Dragon Disciple if you don't just want to use PF's version.
Witchborn Binder (MoI). MoI is a really poorly formatted book, but half meldshaping is dumb. It's especially dumb when more than one of your class feature's function off of total meldshaper level. Also, considering the two base classes to get into this, having "+1 meldshaping level" as your only benefit for four levels is dumb. Incarnate has 3 dead levels. Totemist has 6 (but 3 at or beyond 13th level). Soulborn has 4, if you care. You're on par with a Soulborn here. This is not a good thingtm. Also, the name keeps making me want to check ToM for the Binder, which is awesome. I have to keep disappointing myself here.:smallsigh:
I want to also include every PrC from the Truenamer section of ToM, but that's not really going to help you.