playable giant spiders

[Ettina]

What would you suggest for a player who wants to play a giant, sentient spider caring for several thousand tiny eggs/babies?

Level adjustment is no concern here.

[Wacky89]

What would you suggest for a player who wants to play a giant, sentient spider caring for several thousand tiny eggs/babies?

Level adjustment is no concern here.

Awaken Vermin (Master of Flies PrC - Savage Species)
Sword Spider, Large Vermin (Monsters of Faerun)
Sword Spider has 5 RHD & LA 3 (Using the Player's Guide to Faerun update booklet to the 3.0 monsters to 3.5)

Awaken changes type to Magical Beast & adds another 2 RHD. Ending up at ECL 10

This is the only way I know how to play a spider.

[Afgncaap5]

Ten levels of Fang of Lolth would almost do something like that, but those are actual levels and not adjustment. Hmm...

I'm sure someone else will have a better answer, but have you looked at Savage Species any? It's been a while since I've looked in that book, but I think I recall a system for making "animal people" or playing as custom creatures. No spiders spring to mind, but there might be something there.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What arachnophobic player pissed you off?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm\)anyone? Ok, technically, its a half-drow, half-spider.

[Milo v3]

Isn't there a +0 LA spider in Faerun?

[DrMotives]

Sounds like you mean the hairy spider. It's just a normal tarantula, intended as a familiar. Doesn't even require improved familiar, because it's no more powerful than the PH standard familiars. Sure, awaken that and you should have no LA.

[Taveena]

Actually, because nonability scores are considered less than ability scores, the Hairy Spider (LA +0, as mentioned) is increased to int 3, because player characters cannot have less than 3 int.

Least, that's one interpretation.

Fun fact: an Animal with an intelligence of 3 or greater doesn't automatically become a magical beast. It simply loses the Animal type.
And thus Darkvision.

[Andezzar]

Actually, because nonability scores are considered less than ability scores, the Hairy Spider (LA +0, as mentioned) is increased to int 3, because player characters cannot have less than 3 int.

Least, that's one interpretation.

Fun fact: an Animal with an intelligence of 3 or greater doesn't automatically become a magical beast. It simply loses the Animal type.
And thus Darkvision.The Animal Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) does not grant darkvision, it grants low-light vision.

Is there even a rule, that the loss of the type also removes the features and traits of that type? AFAIK all type changing mechanics explicitly say what you lose and what you don't.

[Milo v3]

The Animal Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) does not grant darkvision, it grants low-light vision.

Is there even a rule, that the loss of the type also removes the features and traits of that type? AFAIK all type changing mechanics explicitly say what you lose and what you don't.

Animal type is abit irrelevent, since spiders are vermin.

But till, if you don't have a type anymore, you wouldn't have the traits of that type.

[Mr Adventurer]

Aranaea are playable I think?

[Sith_Happens]

Aranaea are playable I think?

Came in here to say this. Araneas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm) are quite the package of abilities if you're getting to ignore LA (which I assume is what the OP means by "Level adjustment is no concern").

[Inevitability]

Aranaea are playable I think?

They are; there's even a savage species class for them.


I recommend Sword Spider, though. You get 9 attacks/round, so add Pounce and some passive benefit that applies to all attacks (sneak attack/monstrous vampire) and go nuts.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is there even a rule, that the loss of the type also removes the features and traits of that type? AFAIK all type changing mechanics explicitly say what you lose and what you don't.

That's right. Everything that changes your type generally explains what you get, what you keep and what you lose. There is no general rule that i'm aware of.

[Andezzar]

The reading that everything is lost unless the ability says otherwise, causes the problem that the creature will no longer have hit dice, BAB or base saves (features of the type).

An Aranea isn't quite a sentient big spider. It's more like a Were-Spider with the traditional three forms (humanoid, spider and hybrid).

[Milo v3]

An Aranea isn't quite a sentient big spider. It's more like a Were-Spider with the traditional three forms (humanoid, spider and hybrid).

... and magic.

[Uncle Pine]

Adding the fiendish/celestial template will turn any mindless vermin into a Int 3 vermin for LA +2.

[ShurikVch]

There are also:
Chitine (Underdark) 2HD, LA +2
Choldrith (Monsters of Faerûn) 4 HD, LA +5
Lhosk (MM III) 8 HD, LA +3
Myrlochar (Monsters of Faerûn) 6 HD, LA +5
Neogi (MM II/LoM) 5 HD, LA +3
Yochlol (Monsters of Faerûn) 6 HD, LA +6

Arachnoid Creature template (Underdark) count as LA +0, but only for Animals and Magical Beasts

[goto124]

What arachnophobic player pissed you off?

I'm now wondering how the party members (IC and OOC) will react to a giant spider asking to join the party.

And why the party didn't Fireball it first :P

[Milo v3]

I'm now wondering how the party members (IC and OOC) will react to a giant spider asking to join the party.

And why the party didn't Fireball it first :P

NWN 2 has an instance of this happening. It is... weird.

[Ettina]

It's for a two-person campaign, and the other player is a kobold trapmaker who's looking after a red dragon egg. The spider's going to be about to eat the kobold, and the kobold reacts by trying to protect the egg, at which point the spider feels sympathy for the kobold as a fellow mother and lets her live. In reaction, the kobold starts trying to serve the spider (that seems like a kobold's reaction to something that wants to eat them).

I'm playing the kobold, by the way. My brother's going to be the spider.

[Andezzar]

Well Khestrel is a more valuable party member than Grobnar ;)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yochlol (Monsters of Faerûn) 6 HD, LA +6

Yochlol was updated in Fiendish Codex I. It now has 10 HD and 0 LA, although I doubt it was what op is going for.

[ShurikVch]

Yochlol was updated in Fiendish Codex I. It now has 10 HD and 0 LA, although I doubt it was what op is going for.No, they don't have LA +0
They have no listed LA, which means "unplayable without DM fiat"
AFAIK, Hordes of the Abyss contain no playable monsters
So, I deliberately pointed to older, but playable variant

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, they don't have LA +0
They have no listed LA, which means "unplayable without DM fiat"
AFAIK, Hordes of the Abyss contain no playable monsters
So, I deliberately pointed to older, but playable variant

1) The Monsters of Faerun version is superseded by the Hordes of the Abyss one. It would be a house rule to let him use that one.
2) This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19257529&postcount=1415)

[ShurikVch]

1) The Monsters of Faerun version is superseded by the Hordes of the Abyss one. It would be a house rule to let him use that one.Does it have text which say something like "this is update of Yochlol from the Monsters of Faerûn, use it instead of previous version"? :smallconfused:

2) This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19257529&postcount=1415)I disbelieve it.
Just because it doesn't say about number of LA, it doesn't mean it's +0.
Why not a +1, +2, or even +10?

For example, take Blue from Expanded Psionics Handbook.
It have "LA: +1"
But why?
"Int +2"? Gray Elf says hello!
"Favored Class: Psion"? Really?!
Weird blue coloration? :smallamused:

Or take another demons from the same HoA:
Bar-Lgura (6 HD) have see invisibility, telekinesis, greater teleport at will (and may teleport other unwilling creatures)
Ekolid (6 HD) have Form of Madness, Implant Egg, and extra move action every round
Guecubu (4 HD) have possession, telekinesis, and natural invisibility
Juvenile Nabassu (5 HD) is a super-ambusher with it's 2d6 SA, camouflage, darkness and obscuring mist at will; and may cause ghoulopocalypse with it's Death-Stealing Gaze
Do you mean all of them are LA: +0? :smallconfused:

[Nessa Ellenesse]

What would you suggest for a player who wants to play a giant, sentient spider caring for several thousand tiny eggs/babies?

Level adjustment is no concern here.

I would suggest they consider the liability several thousands of tiny eggs/babies would be for a character regularly engaged in combat. The average adventurer makes lots of enemies at least one of those is an evil cult. Unless that's an NPC you're talking about I would suggest reconsidering his or her character concept.

[Ettina]

I would suggest they consider the liability several thousands of tiny eggs/babies would be for a character regularly engaged in combat. The average adventurer makes lots of enemies at least one of those is an evil cult. Unless that's an NPC you're talking about I would suggest reconsidering his or her character concept.

The whole point of this campaign is protecting the babies. As I mentioned, it's a two-player team of a kobold with a dragon egg and a sentient spider with a hundred little babies. They're not average adventurers.

[Andezzar]

No, they don't have LA +0
They have no listed LA, which means "unplayable without DM fiat"
AFAIK, Hordes of the Abyss contain no playable monsters
So, I deliberately pointed to older, but playable variantHow is L6 HD, LA +6 more playable than 10 HD? The former is ECL 12 the latter ECL 10. Or put differently the former is equivalent to a human with 12 class levels whereas the latter is equivalent to a LA +0 character with 10 class levels. The benefit of the latter is that it is a lot less squishy because it has ten actual hit dice instead of only 6.

Of course you cannot play a monster against the DM's will, but that goes for any character.
only LA: - monsters are explicitly unsuitable as characters. Mostly that is because they have an intelligence smaller than 3 and/or no opposable thumbs.

[AvatarVecna]

1. Vermin Lord is a BoVD PrC that requires you to learn the ways of vermin from sentient vermin-ish creatures (easy, or a sentient spider).

2. Vermin Lords gain 3 familiars (1 at 1 HD, 1 at 4 HD, and 1 at 16 HD); those last two can be Wasp Swarms (from Fiend Folio), which are 4 HD swarms of Fine creatures (10000 wasps per swarm, for 20000 wasps total).

3. Vermin Lord 10 lets the Vermin Lord start a Hivemind: the more individual vermin within 10 ft of you when you start the hivemind, the higher each hivemind member's bonus to Int, Cha, bonus feats per HD, bonus skill points per HD, and potentially sorcerer spellcasting levels.

20000 wasps (ignoring whatever you can summon) give you Intelligence 407, Charisma 399, all skills at full ranks, 199 bonus feats per Hit Die, and casting as a Sorcerer 382 (including CL and spells/day). You can't access epic feats, but that'll hardly be an excuse for if you fail to curbstomp approximately everything (especially if your DM rules that you can end the hivemind and restart it, allowing you to choose new spells known for your uber-Sorcerer casting whenever you want).

[ShurikVch]

How is L6 HD, LA +6 more playable than 10 HD? The former is ECL 12 the latter ECL 10. Or put differently the former is equivalent to a human with 12 class levels whereas the latter is equivalent to a LA +0 character with 10 class levels. The benefit of the latter is that it is a lot less squishy because it has ten actual hit dice instead of only 6.Difference between listed LA and unlisted LA is you can't play latter without the DM call, because your "default to 0" isn't actually written anywhere.
And what if DM will say: "OK. You may play it. It will be LA +3. It was +6 last time, but it's way too much..."?
ECL 13 :smalltongue:
Unlisted LA is a factor of uncertainty


only LA: - monsters are explicitly unsuitable as characters. Mostly that is because they have an intelligence smaller than 3 and/or no opposable thumbs.Hairy Spider - LA: +0

[Hellborn_Blight]

NWN 2 has an instance of this happening. It is... weird.

Man I love that game. Far more than the BG or Icewind Dale games. Probably because the 3.5 system was the first system I started with, but also because I F'ing LOVED Khelgar Ironfist. He is one of the best examples of a dynamic character in..hell, all of gaming.

Also, as to the playable spider idea, to quote Minmax from Goblins, "You! You're Evil!"

[WhamBamSam]

1) The Monsters of Faerun version is superseded by the Hordes of the Abyss one. It would be a house rule to let him use that one.
2) This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19257529&postcount=1415)The line between races and monsters is a vague and blurry one, but I think it's relevant here. When a creature is presented as a monster, unlisted LA means LA --. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly stated somewhere. If a creature is presented as a race (as is the case for Humans, Synads, and Vril's apparently), then it's pretty clear that unlisted LA means LA+0.

There's also a line of text which strongly suggests that unlisted LA for templates is to be interpreted as LA+0, though it's pretty clearly not RAI.


Arachnoid Creature template (Underdark) count as LA +0, but only for Animals and Magical BeastsAraneas are magical beasts, as I imagine are some of the others you listed, so you could make an Arachnoid Aranea or similar to spider while you spider. It's not really all that beneficial (at least in the case of the Aranea), but it's a thing you can do.

[Flickerdart]

Entomanothropes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) make excellent PC vermin of all kinds. Just permanently stay in your spider form and you're golden. Bonus: You get to rebuke and command other spiders! More spiders for everybody!