Whirlwind Attack v. Mithral Tornado

[Breitheamh]

Why does everyone say that Mithral Tornado = Whirlwind Attack as a standard action?

I'm not arguing which one is better, because generally speaking, it's pretty obvious that Mithral Tornado is superior, if for no other reason than that taking it means you're probably a Warblade, and will eventually get Adamantine Hurricane (which people often call double Whirlwind Attack as a standard action).

My question is this: why does everyone seem to think they do the same thing but Mithral Tornado does it better (+2 bonus, standard action, etc.)??

Whirlwind Attack allows one attack to be made against every opponent within reach.

Mithral Tornado one attack to be made against every adjacent opponent.

These are very different things, especially when thinking about, for example, spiked chains, or the Dancing Blade Form stance. I was ticked off to realize that Dancing Blade Form doesn't synergize with Mithral Tornado. I was all set to run into crowd of enemies in Dancing Blade Form stance and then activate Mithral Tornado for maximum carnage, only to find that Mithral Tornado does not work like that. It didn't make me want to invest the feats to get Whirlwind Attack because that feat still sucks, but still.

I would be willing to bet that someone has brought up this point before, but I had to rant, and if nobody has brought it up before, now we can say somebody has.

Actually, this brings up a second interesting point: Adamantine Hurricane specifies adjacent opponents that you threaten. That means that wielding a reach weapon without some way to attack people who've gotten inside your reach makes Adamantine Hurricane useless. Usually, of course, by the time you've reached a level at which you'll be selecting Adamantine Hurricane as one of your maneuvers, you'll have rectified this issue with a spiked gauntlet, superior unarmed strike, or, if you're truly desperate, Short Haft feat, but still.

[Marlowe]

Well, first off; if you're using Mithral Tornado/Adamantium Hurricane you are most likely a Warblade, which means you probably have decent battlefield mobility through high Jump, Tumble, maybe Sudden Leap/Leaping Dragon stance (that one costs a feat, as written) or at higher levels Quicksilver Motion. This lets you get where you want to be to get a good number of adjacent opponents within reach.

The second reason is that unlike Whirlwind Attack, you don't have to eat a string of not-very-good feats to get these things. You just have to have a certain number of Initiator levels and Iron Heart access. Which, as the man says, isn't a problem. It's a solution.

[mabriss lethe]

Hey, it could be bladewind, instead. It's got the worst requirements of all of them, 9 levels of soulknife. (In bladewind's defense, the wording allows for some pretty ridiculous things and if properly tweaked, can be an asset to the right build. Soulknife 9/Umbral Disciple 10/X1 is actually pretty ugly with the right rider effects on the mindblade.)

[Breitheamh]

Ok, so the mobility afforded by only needing to spend a standard action is what makes them essentially equivalent, since you can maneuver yourself into position to be adjacent to all the enemies you'd want to attack with whirlwind attack anyway. Is that the basic point you're getting at?

Ok. Still not sure I'll ever see them as doing the same thing completely, but at least that makes sense. Basically, skip the feats and be creative about manipulating your opponents where you want them.

[Marlowe]

I don't think that's what I was getting at. I think that's what I said.

Frankly, I don't think of Mithral Tornado and Whirlwind Attack as the same thing. I'm not even sure anyone's ever said that. I don't think as Whirlwind Attack as being a factor most of the time,because its requirements are so severe and its application so limited.

I think of Mithral Tornado more as an alternative to Cleave. A way of getting more attacks in proportion to the enemies numbers. Its just less situational.

[Breitheamh]

I can't even count the number of times I hear/read things like "don't take whirlwind attack. Be a warblade and get mithral tornado. It's the same thing without the feat requirement/as a standard action/with bonuses on the attacks/but better/etc." Yes we are all aware mithral tornado is better than whirlwind attack, but they aren't exactly the same. Maybe this person has a niche build that actually relies on whirlwind attack, not mithral tornado (unlikely I know, but still).

It just irritates me. Just tonight I read a comment on a different forum that said, "forget whirlwind attack. Be a warblade. Mithral tornado let's you attack everyone in reach as a standard action." The resulting annoyance prompted me to come here and rant.

I really like your description of mithral tornado as an alternative to cleave. I'd never looked at it that way before. Good way for me to get over the whole whirlwind attack thing.

[Troacctid]

Mithral Tornado is supposed to be an upgraded version of Steel Wind. Note the thematic ties.

[Breitheamh]

Yes, I know. I was trying to figure out why it seems like do many people compare it to whirlwind attack as if it does the exact same thing, when it really doesn't.

[OldTrees1]

I would actually compare the AoE Mithral Tornado to other AoE Martial options (Cleave is not an AoE). Besides Whirlwind, the other martial AoEs that jump to mind are Warhulk 4(each attack hits everyone in 3 squares) and War Mind 5(each attack hits everyone in 2 squares).

However each has notable variation and thus are not simple substitutions for each other.

[Andezzar]

Yes, I know. I was trying to figure out why it seems like do many people compare it to whirlwind attack as if it does the exact same thing, when it really doesn't.It's probably because some people do not read the descriptions thoroughly. There is superficial similarity between the two, but they differ quite a bit on the details.
The lower cost is usually the selling point for mithral tornado, but with 10+ natural reach and a spiked chain, Whirlwind attack has quite a large AoE. The AoE for mithral tornado is quite a bit smaller. 8 squares for a creature requiring a 5 ft space, 12 squares for a 10 ft space etc.

[Firechanter]

I'm also a bit unhappy about MT being confined to Adjacent targets. Sure, if it was "everything within Reach" it would quickly be too hefty, as it would prompt the player to extend his Reach to 40' or whatever. Jump into the middle of an army and kill 200 mooks every other round -- that would be too much.
But if the maneuver was worded something like "attack every opponent that you threaten within 10'", that would be gold, without being unbalanced (imho).

[Andezzar]

I'm also a bit unhappy about MT being confined to Adjacent targets. Sure, if it was "everything within Reach" it would quickly be too hefty, as it would prompt the player to extend his Reach to 40' or whatever. Jump into the middle of an army and kill 200 mooks every other round -- that would be too much.
But if the maneuver was worded something like "attack every opponent that you threaten within 10'", that would be gold, without being unbalanced (imho).That there actually are 200 mooks is quite rare. Secondly you do not always have so much open space, especially not in dungeons. Thirdly Unless you do some serious investing in other stuff, there are very few creatures that are killed by a single attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Another issue w/ WWA is that it does not allow any extra attacks. So you can't use Improved Trip or Cleave with it. I've seen some DMs use the wording to ban AoOs for the round, but that's pretty clearly not the intent and really freaking stupid. But still something you may have to deal with...

MT and AH need no buffs, they're good as they are. It's WWA that should be buffed. If you want to hit more than adjacent, take WWA.

But yes, they're not actually identical. Close enough most of the time, though. Also, you can arguably take your 5 ft step in the middle of the maneuver to change who is adjacent to you.


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

I mean, the intent was for full attacking and WWA (which is a full attack), so you can shift to a new enemy if you fell one. But by RAW, you can probably 5 ft step in the middle of MT and AH

[Andezzar]

I mean, the intent was for full attacking and WWA (which is a full attack), so you can shift to a new enemy if you fell one. But by RAW, you can probably 5 ft step in the middle of MT and AHDon't forget that you can only do this if you have not yet moved and you are fine with forfeiting any other movement

[Firechanter]

That there actually are 200 mooks is quite rare. Secondly you do not always have so much open space, especially not in dungeons. Thirdly Unless you do some serious investing in other stuff, there are very few creatures that are killed by a single attack.

Well, depends on the campaign of course. We are currently playing RHoD, which does involve an army of thousands of grunts threatening a civilized valley. This army is clearly not intended to be taken head-on by the PCs -- casters would run out of spell slots / power points, melees out of hitpoints, before making a noticeable dent in the enemy forces.
A Warblade with some defensive buffs on him, and with a Mithral Tornado that allowed for full reach, however, could decimate such an army in a matter of rounds.

[Andezzar]

That's less of a problem of Mthral tornado with full reach but that the system breaks apart if sufficiently optimized characters go against a very high number of level 1-3 NPCs. A warlock or a wizard that does not run out of spells would do the same thing.

[awa]

I think you may have misspoke warlocks don't run out of spells

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes, I know. I was trying to figure out why it seems like do many people compare it to whirlwind attack as if it does the exact same thing, when it really doesn't.
Probably because, for most purposes, they are. It's really rare to have enough enemies on the field-- much less all in a neat block-- for the reach to make a big difference.

As for the Mithral Tornado/Adamantium Hurricane difference... another casualty of poor editing

[Rubik]

As for the Mithral Tornado/Adamantium Hurricane difference... another casualty of poor editingI can smell the irony from here.

[TheEmperor]

I can smell the irony from here.

How? They don't use iron, they use mithral and admantine!

[Zaq]

I can smell the irony from here.

Just use Irony Heart Surge.

[Troacctid]

Ah, but they started with steel, and steel is made from iron.

[Andezzar]

I think you may have misspoke warlocks don't run out of spellsNot at all. A warlock, who does not run out of SLA uses anyways, or a wizard, who does not run out of spells (there are ways to achieve that), can whittle down an army that does not threaten them just as a character with full reach mithral tornado could.

[Firechanter]

How does a Wizard never run out of spells? I mean sure, they have more than enough spells for the typical adventuring day, or maybe even two or three of those days in a row -- but taking on an antire army?

Only thing I can think of are the appropriate reserve feats -- and at level 7 (when Mithral Tornado becomes available) these will deal up to 4d6 damage, Ref for half, covering a very limited area (4 squares). At that pace, you won't get very far.

Maybe there is some elaborate High-Op or T-Op trick that I don't know about, and in that case I would like to hear, but do keep in mind we are comparing to an out-of-the-box feat or maneuver here, respectively.

[Andezzar]

Yeah the arbitrarily high number of spells per day is a high op trick. Unfortunately I cannot find it at the moment. Found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?212739-Absorption-Never-run-out-of-spells-again).

Anyways a flying warlock with chilling tentacles, eldritch cone and/or eldritch doom can whittle down the army right out of the box, especially if he is buffed by something like protection from arrows.

That in this situation the system breaks down is not the problem of an improved mithral tornado, but that the game is not designed for one two four PCs against an army of normal people with medieval weaponry.

[Firechanter]

Note that Protection from Arrows is not going to save you in this army scenario; instead you need to get some concealment / break the line of sight so the enemy grunts can't target you.
If you're flying, all this means is that everyone can get a clear shot at you. Even if you have Prot from Arrows, this only soaks 10*CL damage. In this army scenario, flying above the grunts can mean you have a thousand arrows flying at you each round. Even if they only hit on a 20, you'd have some 250 points of damage coming in each round (including Crits).

BTW, this is a lesson we kinda learned the hard way -- luckily, we had a crack company of Dwarves on our side, who were prepared for going up against loads of archers, and had brought their fogthrowers. ;)

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/70/70e88169e7d69d4dce5629a270b7bd0ddb11e6490c7272a768 35a3f07b7ff2e3.jpg

[sleepyphoenixx]

Protecting yourself from arrows fired by a bunch of mooks is as easy as casting Friendly Fire. It's on all the major caster lists.

For the killing you don't even have to spend too many spells. How about Boreal Wind for a nice 20ft wide line that's at least 680ft long, with a duration and directable with a move action?
Or a sculpted Firebrand for effectively 1 empowered Fireball/CL? Or you could just bury them under a Blizzard. They'll be dead long before they get out of that.
Or you could go for the staple mass-killer: Control Winds with a few CL boosts wipes out armies, cities and most other things that may be in your way.

All of those are 4th to 5th level spells so you have access to them at the same level as Mithral Tornado or soon after. And they're much more effective army killers.

[Firechanter]

Wow, there are some spells from obscure sources. :p
The only Core one is Control Winds -- it's a Druid 5 spell, so kinda falls short of the current discussion about what a Wizard 7 can do. Also, nowhere in the spell description do I read anything about dealing damage to creatures.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wow, there are some spells from obscure sources. :p
The only Core one is Control Winds -- it's a Druid 5 spell, so kinda falls short of the current discussion about what a Wizard 7 can do. Also, nowhere in the spell description do I read anything about dealing damage to creatures.

Frostburn and Spell Compendium are obscure now? And since we're talking about ToB restricting casters to core-only is hardly realistic.

For the full effect of Control Winds you need to read the description for weather effects - specifically wind effects. Getting the CL high enough for tornado-strength is trivial even with core-only sources and only gets easier with more book access. And CL increases are something casters want anyway, so it's hardly a specific trick you're going out of your way for.

Personally i think Mithral Tornado's range restriction is either an oversight or a bit of "mundanes can't have (too) nice things". ToB is better about that than core, but that's not exactly a stellar achievement.
Mooks aren't supposed to challenge your PCs. They exist pretty much entirely to be slaughtered and make your players feel awesome.

[Karnith]

Wow, there are some spells from obscure sources. :p
The only Core one is Control Winds -- it's a Druid 5 spell, so kinda falls short of the current discussion about what a Wizard 7 can do. Also, nowhere in the spell description do I read anything about dealing damage to creatures.
With a sufficiently high caster level, Control Winds can create a tornado (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#tornadoWind), which can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, depending on a particular creature's size and position in relation to the funnel. Incidentally, it also shuts down ranged attacks.

[Firechanter]

Spell Compendium of course isn't obscure, but Exemplars of Evil is - at least in my eyes - and I have also learned to avoid the brokenness of Frostburn.

However, I am inclined to agree about Mithral Tornado, giving it Reach wouldn't wreck the game more than casters already do. Anyway, I'd probably go for the 10' variant for sanity's sake.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Friendly Fire is one of the most broken spells ever printed, it single-handedly shuts down many builds and some entire classes, automatically. No serious discussion of the game should involve it any more than infinite loops or wish economies.

Thankfully, it *is* from a really obscure book, so most people will never even know it exists.

[Marlowe]

Firechanter, could you explain what about Frostburn is broken?

I've noticed that it seems to have an oddly high number of things that are actually useful, especially compared with the generally uninspiring content of Sandstorm and Stormwrack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Firechanter, could you explain what about Frostburn is broken?

I've noticed that it seems to have an oddly high number of things that are actually useful, especially compared with the generally uninspiring content of Sandstorm and Stormwrack.

Sandstorm does have some nice things. But Frostburn has Ice Assassin, which is kind of infamous for the insane shenanigans you can pull off with it.
There's also a bunch of decently strong other spells there (especially for druids) but they're no worse than core spells.

I have to agree that Stormwrack kind of sucks though. :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

Well, for instance those spells that have been referenced here in this thread? I didn't have them on my screen (nobody ever tried to use them), but looking at them now I would hardly call them balanced. Mostly they do way too much for their spell level.

Or remember the Locate City Bomb? Only works with Frostburn (Snowcasting feat).

Or how about turning any and all Dragons into insta-gib One-Shots with a measly level 3 spell? --> hooray for Shivering Touch!

So far I can't say I've seen anything ever referenced from Frostburn that was _not_ used to break the game. That's hardly a good track record for a supposedly balanced splat.

[Andezzar]

Or how about turning any and all Dragons into insta-gib One-Shots with a measly level 3 spell? --> hooray for Shivering Touch!Without metamagic this is a very poor spell to use on a dragon. It is touch range. It is not guaranteed to deal 10 or more DEX damage. Even if you remove those drawbacks (reach spell, maximize spell), which makes the tactic more costly than a measly 3rd level spell, the spell still allows SR. So all but the smallest dragons still can defend against it. Lastly the spell is a [cold] spell, so some dragons are immune to it.

These problems all exist even before the dragon starts to build its defenses against it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Without metamagic this is a very poor spell to use on a dragon. It is touch range. It is not guaranteed to deal 10 or more DEX damage. Even if you remove those drawbacks (reach spell, maximize spell), which makes the tactic more costly than a measly 3rd level spell, the spell still allows SR. So all but the smallest dragons still can defend against it. Lastly the spell is a [cold] spell, so some dragons are immune to it.

These problems all exist even before the dragon starts to build its defenses against it.

The average of 3d6 is 10.5, you have very good odds of crippling the dragon even w/o metamagic, and empower is enough to be sure. Actually, it might even stack with itself, I forget. SR is easy, it's called the Assay Spell Resistance spell. You'd be using it anyway. Touch range isn't that bad, makes a good counter for when it tries to melee you, or just have your spectral hand deliver it.

Some dragons are indeed immune to it. That's about the only time the spell isn't completely game breaking against True Dragons....when it cannot function at all.

Why are we debating broken spells in a thread about WWA and MT and AH again? And how is it we NEED to debate that shivering touch is a broken spell?