One natural attack(bite) and feral combat training

[Hrugner]

I made a half orc tetori monk with the toothy trait and I was wondering if you guys could help me track down some specific rules regarding how feral combat training (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#feral-combat-training) works with it.


I noticed in the bestiary that having only one natural attack lets you treat that natural attack as 2 handed for strength damage and power attack; is this bonus retained when I use it through feral combat training, and when I have multiple unarmed attacks so long as I don't gain additional natural attacks?
By taking feral combat training I can use my bite for the grab and use it with other unarmed strike abilities. Does the bite count as a hand for the purposes of avoiding the one handed negative?

[Psyren]

1) No - the instant you combine a natural attack with any weapon attacks (including unarmed strike), it gets shunted to "secondary attack" status, dropping it down to being treated as an off-hand attack (i.e. 1/2) for the purposes of damage from strength, power attack et al. The exception is when you combine it with flurry - which as a Tetori, you don't get.

2) Yes, Feral Combat Training allows a tetori to grab with their bite, because "Graceful Grappler" is "an effect that augments an unarmed strike" (by giving your unarmed strike the grab special ability.) However, if you do not use your hands to assist with the grapple, you will take a rather large penalty on your subsequent checks to maintain the hold:

"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."

"Conduct the grapple normally" means using at least one of your hands. (Using both hands = no penalty, using just one = -4 penalty unless you have Grabbing Style.)
If you use only the bite to maintain the hold, that is "use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent" - which carries the massive -20 penalty, but leaves your hands free and keeps you from gaining the "grappled" condition yourself - thus allowing you to, for example, attack another foe.

[Hrugner]

For the first one, I was planning on using the bite as the only attack. Rereading the feat it doesn't sound like I get to use the natural weapon as if it were an unarmed attack for the purpose of iterative attacks though. With flurry (out of curiosity since it doesn't matter for this character), does the natural weapons:
"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls." over rule flurry's
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands"?

Regarding the second one, it sounds like the bite is still free to attempt further grabs and grapples while my two arms are maintaining another? I guess that works out to being an okay benefit.

[grarrrg]

Specific trumps general.
The General ruling is that a Single Natural gets 1.5 STR.
The Specific ruling is Monk's Flurry gets straight up STR.
Monk wins.

[Taelas]

Natural attacks do not get iteratives, no. You can combine them with unarmed strikes, which makes you threat them as secondary natural attacks.

If you were to combine it with a flurry of blows, you would also treat it as a secondary natural attack, which mean half Str damage (and a -5 penalty to hit). It isn't part of the flurry, so the Str bonus would remain halved.

[Hrugner]

Natural attacks do not get iteratives, no. You can combine them with unarmed strikes, which makes you threat them as secondary natural attacks.

If you were to combine it with a flurry of blows, you would also treat it as a secondary natural attack, which mean half Str damage (and a -5 penalty to hit). It isn't part of the flurry, so the Str bonus would remain halved.

I agree with the first statement, but when using the natural attack, through feral combat training, to generate additional attacks through something that modifies unarmed strikes such as flurry; the rules are a bit less clear. The purpose isn't to bite while flurrying, but to make a flurry of bites; which does sound stupid, I know.

[grarrrg]

a flurry of bites; which does sound stupid, I know.

It sounds about as stupid as a Flurry of Headbutts, and we have proof of the latter:
Tortoise used HEADBUTT! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIE6s4rSrI)

Little bugger is pushing 9 attacks a round!

[Hrugner]

It sounds about as stupid as a Flurry of Headbutts, and we have proof of the latter:
Tortoise used HEADBUTT! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIE6s4rSrI)

Little bugger is pushing 9 attacks a round!

Now that is adorable. The flurry of bites thing though... if you bite someone 9 times in a 6 seconds that's not a flurry of bites, that's just chewing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Now that is adorable. The flurry of bites thing though... if you bite someone 9 times in a 6 seconds that's not a flurry of bites, that's just chewing.

There are several different venomous snakes that make rapid bite and release strikes in the wild. The coastal taipan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_taipan#Behaviour_and_diet) springs to mind as one.

[Psyren]

For the first one, I was planning on using the bite as the only attack. Rereading the feat it doesn't sound like I get to use the natural weapon as if it were an unarmed attack for the purpose of iterative attacks though. With flurry (out of curiosity since it doesn't matter for this character), does the natural weapons: over rule flurry's ?

Regarding the second one, it sounds like the bite is still free to attempt further grabs and grapples while my two arms are maintaining another? I guess that works out to being an okay benefit.

As grarrrg stated, once you choose to use flurry with your bite, you get multiple attacks, but you get knocked down to x1.0 STR as opposed to x1.5.



If you were to combine it with a flurry of blows, you would also treat it as a secondary natural attack, which mean half Str damage (and a -5 penalty to hit). It isn't part of the flurry, so the Str bonus would remain halved.

This is false - with Feral Combat Training, your bite would get treated just like an unarmed strike in the flurry, getting x1.0 STR, and you could even use all of your flurry attacks to bite without punching at all. (However, if you full-attack normally rather than flurrying, then the bite would be secondary, you'd only get one, and it would only get x0.5 STR.)

So yes, you can Flurry of Bites if you choose.

As I stated in my initial response, flurry is the exception to the normal natural attack + full attack rules.

If you do not have Feral Combat Training, you can't bite during a flurry at all; you could only use your bite during a non-flurry full attack.

[Taelas]

My earlier post didn't take Feral Combat Training into account. With that, yes, you can indeed make a "flurry of bites", in which case you'd deal 1x Str damage.

You are also correct that you cannot add a secondary natural attack to a flurry of blows. I was thinking in terms of 3.5, my apologies.

[Psyren]

My earlier post didn't take Feral Combat Training into account. With that, yes, you can indeed make a "flurry of bites", in which case you'd deal 1x Str damage.

You are also correct that you cannot add a secondary natural attack to a flurry of blows. I was thinking in terms of 3.5, my apologies.

No worries and hopefully I didn't come across as chiding :smallsmile: these rules are on the complicated side.