DM grants WAY below Wealth By Level for individuals. Any suggestions?

[JET73L]

I've had DMs who grant approximately or even precisely WBL- approximating it and integrating it into the campaign or throwing a precise amount of gold or gems every time our WBL got too far from our actual levels. I've had one DM who was a total Monty Haul, though in that setting we kind of needed it. Those are just fine, no complaints there. However, I've also experienced one DM who seems to award wealth at far below WBL.

I understand that it's entirely the DM's discretion, and he's given the party a couple of really neat things, but the problem is that he's given the PARTY a couple of single-person neat things. It's nice that one of our Melee characters can mow through an army of low-level undead, or another gets a +2 Magic Sword when none of the NPCs have magic weapons in the first place, but some of the rest of us are having trouble because that sort of thing only strengthens the party as a whole. Some of us need funding to copy spells, or buy materials/components, or buy armor, or... well, some classes don't seem to need money to get stronger, just XP. Anyway, the point is that I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions for how to make up for this discrepancy between level and wealth.

(I could just ASK him to give us more money, but that would be against the spirit of the game and a last resort. Maybe he's carefully hidden caches of treasure all around the campaign's locations and thinks we don't deserve it if we can't find it. *shrug*)

[Gün]

Start crafting and break wealth by level.

[Hrugner]

I play in groups that are exclusively far bellow wealth level. I recommend taking it into account at character creation and avoiding classes that need wealth to maintain any sort of ability in the game, if this isn't acceptable, discuss the oncoming power imbalance with the DM pointing out that CR is balanced around that wealth level and the ability to expend some amount of resources on scrolls, potions, wands and so on. In the mean time, make characters that can survive without much in the way of equipment or consumables.

Alternatively, maybe suggest this low magic variant system (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Virtual_Magic_Bonus_System_(3.5e_Variant_Rule))

[MukkTB]

I recommend a caster. They are less dependent on magic items than non-casters. You can +1 your own sword, or select the right damage type without needing outside assistance.

Its also possible to break the in game economy in various ways. A couple feats into crafting magic items will let you make items for less than you can sell them for.

[JET73L]

My character is a primary caster, but her entire life is built around being a trade craftsman. Had I known ahead of time that there would be so little liquidatable income, I would likely have picked a different build. (There's a chance that I would have kept with the same character, because I like to balance high-powered crunch with near-crippling fluff, and knowing this before character creation would have at least let me pick a more appropriate list of starting supplies if nothing else.)

I can pick a more XP-in, Power-out class instead of an XP-and-Gold-in, Power-and-Gold-out (or even XP-and-Gold-In, Power-Out) class when I know it's coming, but I really need to figure out how to deal with this for future campaigns where the individual wealth is unexpectedly low.

Edit, because MukkTB ninja'd me: Mundane Crafting requires seed money. I should have been able to work with the starting gold had I known I'd need to plan more short-term. Magic Crafting needs more seed money. At this point, it looks like it won't be possible to afford the costs for crafting anything magical above the smallest Wondrous Items or enchanted arrows for way too many levels.

[Tvtyrant]

Talk to your DM about it. Any work around you find (like Totemist, Druid, etc.) may be too strong or magicky for your DMs taste, and set you up at odds with him/her. A lot of the weaknesses of the system can be worked around if the DM is discretionary about what they use; IE if they don't use shadows and full casters you can probably do okay as people with pokey swords living in a mud pit society.

This means that yes, asking the DM to give you more money is actually the most balanced approach. Trying to leverage it through the tricks available to a forum of optimizers is just about the least balanced approach.

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps indicate to the DM what your character's goals are? As a crafter, perhaps she would wish to build areas she can build her goodies at, and indicate that you wish for plot hooks to obtain the money to do so. Perhaps questing for power groups in the setting, including offering to make them things. This might clue the DM in as to what your problem is, and even give them something to work with.

And hopefully, if they have some sort of anti-crafting agenda, they'd mention it now and the two of you could work out a compromise.

[JET73L]

Trying to leverage it through the tricks available to a forum of optimizers is just about the least balanced approach.

All fair points. (We've fought partial casters, plus the works of offscreen necromancers, but I think the person we defeated via tackling and repeatedly cold-cocking before she could get off a spell was the only full caster we actually fought.)

I think I may discuss this with the DM. See if he even realizes what he's indirectly doing that he didn't intend as a result of his direct reduction of standard wealth.

Edit because, again, ninja'd: He knows my character's goals, and knows all of my definite goals. He's not openly against crafting. This particular campaign is pretty much over, but I can take your suggestions for the upcoming same-character campaign.

[danzibr]

VoP Totemist.

[Gün]

Or VoP druid with VoP animal companion

[ExLibrisMortis]

You might be able to get away with converting XP to gold by selling spells with an XP component, charging 5 gp per XP as normal. If the DM wants you to have less-than-WBL, that will do absolutely nothing to fix your problems, though, so make sure the DM is aware of what you're doing, and okay with the concept.

[Extra Anchovies]

Druid is probably the class that scales hardest with class levels. A VoP druid (maybe with one level of Monk or Unarmed Swordsage) doesn't really need items.

If you want access to equipment, the Binder vestiges Savnok and Eurynome grant magic armor and weapons, respectively.

[JET73L]

I hate Vow of Poverty (it's not bad, it's just not me), but thanks for the suggestions.

This is set in Pathfinder, not 3.5, but the general suggestions will probably be helpful one way or another when I have to deal with it again. Thanks for the 3.5-specific questions anyway; I didn't specify which d20 game it was, so your effort is appreciated.

[Extra Anchovies]

I hate Vow of Poverty (it's not bad, it's just not me), but thanks for the suggestions.

This is set in Pathfinder, not 3.5, but the general suggestions will probably be helpful one way or another when I have to deal with it again. Thanks for the 3.5-specific questions anyway; I didn't specify which d20 game it was, so your effort is appreciated.

For Pathfinder, I'd still recommend stock druid, or maybe Saurian Shaman.

[FocusWolf413]

DSP'S soulknife is pretty good in a low WBL game.

[Jack_Simth]

Pathfinder, so Vow of Poverty not available, plus it's not your cup of tea. OK.
Low wealth. Well, there's a few ways to approach that:

1) Do stuff to make money reasonably directly. If you don't have seed money, you can get it via Craft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft) and Profession (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/profession): both have a clause about using the skills to simply make money during downtime - and Craft is usable untrained. Once you've got seed money, Fabricate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fabricate) is still a thing, and Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) can even bypass expensive material components ... and Pathfinder kept 3.5's problem with Fabricate in that regard.

2) Play something that has a reduced need for things. If you're playing a SAD (Single Attribute Dependant) character, then you get more bang for your buck out of what little you do get, and you can focus your ability points better. Pathfinder Undead get Charisma to Fort saves and HP instead of Con automatically; the Oracle has a lot of options for Charisma in place of Dexterity for AC and Reflex; most Divine casters have access to Divine Protection which grants Charisma as a bonus to all saves. So an undead oracle could have Charisma to AC, Charisma to saves (twice for Reflex and Fort, but losing Dex and Con in the process), and Charisma based spellcasting. Avoid spells with attack rolls and you're golden - the catch, of course, being that most useful types of undeadness (Lich, Vampire, Ghost - those that do NOT remove class levels) incur a CR inrease. Still, even without giving up being a living creature, being down to just Charisma and Con is pretty handy.

3) Specifically quest for it. Gather Information (Diplomacy) people that are willing to pay for things to happen. Seek out lost treasures. Plan a heist. Hire out as caravan guards. That sort of thing.

[Urpriest]

Talk to the DM. Many DMs don't realize that removing WBL screws up character scaling in a number of basic ways (AC vs attack bonus being the most prominent). I don't know why so many DMs don't realize this, probably because they don't actually love the game enough to spend hours figuring out how it works like a sensible person would. If your DM understands how the game scales, then you can chalk it up to DM discretion and go for the solutions in this thread.

[jiriku]

Well. Do you need money, or do you need an environment in which the rewards of adventuring are commensurate with the risks?

If you are looking to obtain a good risk/reward ratio, it is time to get more sandboxy with the game world. You can straight-up greed this in an in-character fashion if you want to. "Hey guys, I love risking my life as much as the next guy, but I at least want to get paid for it. Let's just start turning down any jobs that involve risking our lives for no reward. And you know what, everyone in this place is broke. Let's go over to that kingdom across the mountains. I hear they've got a war going on; people are always quick with coin in wartime." If you communicate to the DM, both in character and out of character, that you expect to get paid for your work, the DM will either respond to your desires by providing treasure or shut you down and let you know that he's got an overriding preference for a no-wealth game (and at least then you'll know where you stand).

Now, if you just need money, this is D&D. Some monsters are literally made of money, and in some places money actually does grow on trees. Open up your Player's Handbook to page 112 and take a look at Table 7-3 (Trade Goods). Everything on that table is money. I don't just mean it can be resold at full value or can easily be converted into money. D&D is a barter economy, and in a barter economy a pig, a cow, or a river barge loaded with barrels of salt are all considered to be actual cash money. You can literally walk into a large temple, plunk down a sack of saffron or a pallet of salt, and they will take it from you and give you potions of healing or resurrect your dead friend for you in return. Spells exist that directly produce money: fabricate and wall of money wall of salt are my favorites. Fabricate also works marvelously as an investment tool. Take any sort of raw material at all, fabricate it into something that people want (which triples its market value), sell it for half price, and you have made a 50% return on your investment in the time that it took to cast the spell and then carry your goods to market. If you're too low-level for those spells, unseen crafter is a good start; it works while you adventure. Ranks in Perform, Profession or Tumble are also directly convertible into money if you can convince the party to travel to a location where the skills can be employed.

[frost890]

Have you tried to use down time to craft? Craft wood and make a bunch of wood toys at low level. Once you have craft wounderous item make a chest of storage(think bag of holding) that is also a golem. It will guard your treasure/wears to sell and will carry it for you. In a pinch it will even act as a mount. It would be like luggage from disk world. Also once you get some kind of bag of holding you can loot all kinds of things armor gets expensive, but when you walk in to the local smith and ask them what kind of deal they will give you for 12 plate mail suits, 6 chain mail and... once you can make a contact in the city you can get frequent costumer discount. Also if you need something specific, work freelance for the church/wizard/lord. If you have a school/church/lord you have a link to jobs/adventures and supplies. The thief's fence might require something that he needs and is willing to give you boots of spider climb in exchange. Remember the story is driven by the players. The GM can railroad only so much and have anything done with the story.

[CashanDraven]

DSP'S soulknife is pretty good in a low WBL game.

I agree with this, the armored variant is a nice touch. Also, if you can get him to allow it, Sphere's of Power is a great item for lower magic games as it reels in casters quite a bit while still giving them powerful options.

The enhancement sphere almost eliminates the need for bought magic weapons or armor, and the Armorist class flat out gets its own scaling equipment.

[Story]

This is set in Pathfinder, not 3.5, but the general suggestions will probably be helpful one way or another when I have to deal with it again. Thanks for the 3.5-specific questions anyway; I didn't specify which d20 game it was, so your effort is appreciated.

In that case, have you considered item crafting? Pathfinder effectively got rid of crafting prerequisites, so a Wizard3 with CWI can craft Tomes no problem. Plus you don't have to worry about XP costs, and there's one trait that gives you a slight discount on crafting. As long as you can get arbitrarily long downtime, you can more than double your WBL that way.

[Saintheart]

Talk to the DM. Many DMs don't realize that removing WBL screws up character scaling in a number of basic ways (AC vs attack bonus being the most prominent). I don't know why so many DMs don't realize this, probably because they don't actually love the game enough to spend hours figuring out how it works like a sensible person would. If your DM understands how the game scales, then you can chalk it up to DM discretion and go for the solutions in this thread.

The scary part of this being that (in 3.5 at least, if not Pathfinder) it makes casters even stronger. No matter how much money they get, mages and clerics still keep on acquiring higher and higher levels of spells as the levels go by. Provided they've still got a spellbook (in the case of a mage) or two hands and a set of knees with which to pray each morning (in the case of clerics) WBL is useful and all, but it strikes me as mainly there to give the melee types bigger boots for wading in blood.

[Jack_Simth]

In that case, have you considered item crafting? Pathfinder effectively got rid of crafting prerequisites, so a Wizard3 with CWI can craft Tomes no problem.... you mean other than the small matters of a DC 32 Spellcraft check at level three (5 + CL + 5 per missing prerequisite; Wizard-3 can't cast Wish and doesn't have a caster level of 17, so that's DC 5+17+10) and the crafting supplies?

[Story]

Admittedly, the Spellcraft check isn't trivial at low levels, but I think you can do it if you really try. Besides, that's just the most extreme example, it's usually a lot lower in practice.

[Jack_Simth]

Admittedly, the Spellcraft check isn't trivial at low levels, but I think you can do it if you really try. Besides, that's just the most extreme example, it's usually a lot lower in practice.

Nah. The extreme example would be crafting something like an adamantine golem at level 5.

[Story]

Just looked through the PFSRD to see how hard it would be

Substitute Craft for Spellcraft
+5 int
+3 ranks
+3 class skill
+2 masterwork craft tools
+2 aid another from familiar
+5 Crafter's Fortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/crafter-s-fortune)
+2 Bestow Insight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-insight)
+10 from taking 10

Bestow Insight also lets you roll twice and take the higher but that doesn't matter since you can just take 10 on the check anyway.

So you can do it pretty easily without even spending any permanent resources like feats. Gotta love skill boosting spells, even if PF doesn't have quite so many as 3.5

[Brova]

All of the (in game) solutions to this problem involve playing casters. You could just play a Beguiler and need only a headband of +Int for the entire campaign. You could play a buffbot and make up for the lack of magic items with spells. You could use some pet Efreet to get people level appropriate gear. If you don't want to talk to him, just play a caster and continue winning everything forever as normal.

The best solution is probably to talk to the DM and suggest that he up the treasure levels for the party. It sounds like you're at a fairly low level right now, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but in the long term melee guys can't pull their weight without magic. Melee guys need gear because they don't actually have class features (apparently +1 BAB and Weapon Specialization is supposed to be equal to glitterdust). You should find out why you aren't getting appropriate amounts of treasure. Is he intentionally running a low power game? Has he not read WBL? Have you missed a big treasure haul?

[JET73L]

Sorry for not replying earlier, I thought this thread had stopped getting responses.

To answer the most significant things I've seen here, summed up:

-I HAVE ranks in Profession! I got them for a combination of fluff (because, again, I didn't expect the campaign style to go the way it did) and for circumstantial bonuses to things related to trader knowledge, trading culture, that sort of thing.

-We don't get downtime unless we ask for it; it's not automatic. The adventure we were in recently ended and the next campaign of the adventure hasn't yet started, so I'll bring up the subject of downtime with the DM and the other players then (some of the other players are impatient even when it comes to offscreen waiting. At least it's technically in-character).

-We were in an intercontinental trading caravan, so pretty much everyone was in the same boat as I was with only being able to sell stuff every couple of months of traveling. I set things up in a way that I could have theoretically crafted en route had I had seed money, but I hadn't thought of using Profession to craft and add to my stock.

[Telok]

Linguistics -> forgery -> print your own money.

There are some serious bonuses that you can rack up for your forgeries, very few opposing bonuses, and it's a trained only skill on very few class lists.

Failing that you can just find the local evil temple and knock it over. Butcher every single creature for saleable parts. Loot everything not nailed down, and bring a crowbar, and a wagon. In D&D not making money is the result of not trying.

[Story]

Per PFSRD


Trained You must be trained to use this skill, but you can always attempt to read archaic and strange forms of your own racial bonus languages. In addition, you can also always attempt to detect a forgery.

So in this case, being trained only doesn't really help. Which makes sense.

[Psyren]

I hate Vow of Poverty (it's not bad, it's just not me), but thanks for the suggestions.

This is set in Pathfinder, not 3.5, but the general suggestions will probably be helpful one way or another when I have to deal with it again. Thanks for the 3.5-specific questions anyway; I didn't specify which d20 game it was, so your effort is appreciated.

Do you or GM have access to Pathfinder Unchained? There is a functional low-wealth system there called "Automatic Bonus Progression" that simply gives characters the various minimum necessary bonuses (known as the "Big Six") that wealth would ordinarily have provided; these include enhancement bonuses to ability scores, deflection/armor/natural armor bonuses to AC and resistance bonuses to saving throws, among others.

[Segev]

You're stuck because you've got so little seed money, but you ARE a crafter?

Next time the party gets a "really neat item" that is only usable by one person, talk to them about how you can break it down and use it to craft multiple, lower-powered items that can be spread across the party. IF nothing else, sell it for its half price value and use that to buy your reagents for making new items.

Also, as a caster, consider selling your services during downtime. There are recommended costs for hiring spellcasters by the spell, offer at or below those rates to those who can afford it in towns.

[Urpriest]

Do you or GM have access to Pathfinder Unchained? There is a functional low-wealth system there called "Automatic Bonus Progression" that simply gives characters the various minimum necessary bonuses (known as the "Big Six") that wealth would ordinarily have provided; these include enhancement bonuses to ability scores, deflection/armor/natural armor bonuses to AC and resistance bonuses to saving throws, among others.

I feel like if the DM actually understood that they needed a boost, they could just give them proper treasure.

[Kish]

Point this out to the DM in a nonhostile, nonconfrontational way. If he's doing it for a reason, hopefully he'll explain that reason to you, or at least tell you, "Yes I am doing it on purpose, no I'm not picking on anyone in particular, yes I have a reason." If he's not doing it deliberately and you phrase it diplomatically enough, presumably he'll appreciate the heads-up.

[Psyren]

I feel like if the DM actually understood that they needed a boost, they could just give them proper treasure.

Some DMs simply "want magic items to be special/rare" and don't think hard enough about the ramifications of that. An alternate wealth system can help them maintain the feel they want for their campaign world without restricting the PCs to fighting low-magic bandits and beasts.

[Telok]

Per PFSRD
So in this case, being trained only doesn't really help. Which makes sense.
My bad, I missed that. But did you look at the bonuses that apply? With some simple work it should be pretty east to get a +8 or +10 in bonuses after skill ranks, kit, and any spells.

Something to keep in mind is that the DM may be (probably not though) accounting for what an actual magic item market might look like. People generally make useful stuff, stuff that sells, and normally have a pretty good sense of cost/benefit ratios. For example, in my games you never find +1 weapons. People either spend ~400 gp on a masterwork weapon and oil of magic weapon or they save up for a +2 equivalent weapon, because the 2000 gp for a +1 to damage isn't a good use of money. On the other hand +1 armors were pretty common because it was a reasonable price and you could upgrade armor crystals from least to lesser.

< time, more later >

[JET73L]

I talked with the DM, and it turns out he was intentionally using minimal GP-worth rewards, which was almost completely soaked up by the magic sword that our Melee primary got.

....CRUD! I just realized that though the caravan leader said he'd pay us for our time despite it disbanding, but I don't remember him actually paying us! At this point, it's practically my fault. I'm DEFINITELY going to discuss downtime with him.

Pathfinder Unchained doesn't seem like it would be my bag, or the DM's, but I'll look into it anyway in case it's interesting : )

[Extra Anchovies]

Do you or GM have access to Pathfinder Unchained? There is a functional low-wealth system there called "Automatic Bonus Progression" that simply gives characters the various minimum necessary bonuses (known as the "Big Six") that wealth would ordinarily have provided; these include enhancement bonuses to ability scores, deflection/armor/natural armor bonuses to AC and resistance bonuses to saving throws, among others.

Do you know if that part of PU is on the SRD? I know the reworked classes and VMC rules are, but I can't find the Stamina subsystem or this Automatic Bonus Progression thing, and I'm pretty interested in both of them.

[Story]

Something to keep in mind is that the DM may be (probably not though) accounting for what an actual magic item market might look like. People generally make useful stuff, stuff that sells, and normally have a pretty good sense of cost/benefit ratios. For example, in my games you never find +1 weapons. People either spend ~400 gp on a masterwork weapon and oil of magic weapon or they save up for a +2 equivalent weapon, because the 2000 gp for a +1 to damage isn't a good use of money. On the other hand +1 armors were pretty common because it was a reasonable price and you could upgrade armor crystals from least to lesser.

I'd argue that +1 weapons are actually pretty useful. It means not having to waste resources or actions applying oil of magic weapon when you're ambushed by incorporeal monsters. Plus there are a lot of abilities that add or manipulate weapon enchantments, so having that base +1 is always useful. Also, a +1 weapon can be upgraded to a +1 flaming shocking weapon or whatever later by paying only the cost difference, so it's common to have a +1 as an intermediate step.

But really D&D items have the prices they say they do. The economics doesn't make any sense, but if you try to second guess it, you'll have to do some pretty extensive homebrewing. The prices are designed for balance, not realism (not that they achieve balance either, but they come a lot closer than realistic prices would).

[Urpriest]

I talked with the DM, and it turns out he was intentionally using minimal GP-worth rewards, which was almost completely soaked up by the magic sword that our Melee primary got.

....CRUD! I just realized that though the caravan leader said he'd pay us for our time despite it disbanding, but I don't remember him actually paying us! At this point, it's practically my fault. I'm DEFINITELY going to discuss downtime with him.

Pathfinder Unchained doesn't seem like it would be my bag, or the DM's, but I'll look into it anyway in case it's interesting : )

Even if he doesn't want to use Pathfinder Unchained, you should let him know that he does need to homebrew some sort of low-wealth correction system. If he's unfamiliar with the math you or we can explain it.

[goto124]

I understand that it's entirely the DM's discretion, and he's given the party a couple of really neat things, but the problem is that he's given the PARTY a couple of single-person neat things. It's nice that one of our Melee characters can mow through an army of low-level undead, or another gets a +2 Magic Sword when none of the NPCs have magic weapons in the first place, but some of the rest of us are having trouble because that sort of thing only strengthens the party as a whole. Some of us need funding to copy spells, or buy materials/components, or buy armor, or... well, some classes don't seem to need money to get stronger, just XP. Anyway, the point is that I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions for how to make up for this discrepancy between level and wealth.

It sounds like the low WBL wasn't entirely intentional on the part of the DM. It shouldn't hurt to explain the situation to him.

[Psyren]

Even if he doesn't want to use Pathfinder Unchained, you should let him know that he does need to homebrew some sort of low-wealth correction system. If he's unfamiliar with the math you or we can explain it.

Indeed. (Didn't Grod have a nice one too?)


Do you know if that part of PU is on the SRD? I know the reworked classes and VMC rules are, but I can't find the Stamina subsystem or this Automatic Bonus Progression thing, and I'm pretty interested in both of them.

I don't think they are yet, hopefully it won't be much longer.

[Geddy2112]

I normally DON'T suggest this, but start taking it by force. If the DM is not giving you rewarding quests where there is treasure, start making your own. Pick NPC's or anybody else that seems to have stuff and then make it yours. This is particularly important if the party is having trouble keeping up in combat and puzzle situations due to a lack of equipment. Hopefully, you can knock over the scumbags of the campaign setting and do the world a favor, but if everybody is okay with being murderers and thieves then go for it.

The DM will either kill your characters in retribution, start giving you adventures that are more lucrative, or allow the campaign shift to that of a bunch of thieves and scoundrels.

[jiriku]

In extremis, I have also found it acceptable to take extravagant risks until your character dies, allow the party to loot the corpse, introduce a new character with full level-appropriate WBL, and repeat. After 2-3 character deaths, the party is usually flush with cash and minor magical items simply from looting its own fallen.