what is counted as a Spontaneous spell caster

[Torroc]

... Ok this is an issue I have run in to with my current Dm... Im under the understanding any spell caster who dose not use a spell book is a Spontaneous spell caster. Ok... SO i try to go in to the ultimate magnus class only to get swated down becouse my dm states it uses spell conponetes its not a Spontaneous spell caster

[DrMotives]

Spell components have nothing to do with spontaneous caster or not. A spontaneous caster is one who doesn't prepare specific spells in their spells per day slots, but instead can choose any spell from a "spells known" list at the moment of casting. So sorcerers and bards from the PH, also pretty much every arcane caster with no spellbook, and the Favored Soul for the divine side of things.

[Torroc]

Is there anyplace i could find that points this out?

Found it... D&D 3.5 - Rules Compendium page 140


Spontaneous Casting
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t needspellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can castany spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters. Sucha spellcaster’s class level limits the number of spells he cancast. A high ability score might allow such spellcasters tocast a few extra spells, and the class defines the ability scorethat governs spellcasting. A spellcaster must have a score of at least 10 + a spell’s level in the ability score that governsspellcasting to cast that spell.

[Ettina]

Using spell components doesn't mean you aren't a spontaneous caster. Sorcerers use spell components just like wizards do, and they're the archetypal spontaneous casters.

Incidentally, it's not always a spellbook that makes you a prepared spellcaster. Clerics are non-spontaneous casters, because every morning they pray to their diety telling him whatever spells they want to use that day.

Spontaneous casters don't choose which spells they're going to cast each morning - they have the same spell list available all the time. They still have a limited number of spells per day of each level, however.

A spell-caster who needs no components is using a supernatural or spell-like ability rather than a spell, or is using the eschew materials feat. Spell-like and supernatural abilities are generally given by different classes than spells (or are racial abilities), while eschew materials can be used by a prepared spellcaster as well as by a spontaneous one. (Though a prepared spellcaster must decide ahead of time to use that feat with that spell, while a spontaneous caster decides this at the moment of casting.)

[AmberVael]

Put very simply, a spontaneous spellcaster is a spellcaster that decides what spells to cast from their spell slots in the moment they use their spell slots. This is in contrast to a prepared caster, who spends time predetermining what specific spells they can cast from their slots and then uses them later.

Link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm)

Relevant quote:

Most spellcasters prepare their spells in advance—whether from a spellbook or through devout prayers and meditation— while some cast spells spontaneously without preparation.
(PHB page 169, just for reference).

[Torroc]

that something my Dm was arguing with me about that Sorcerers do not use spell components.

but here i found it black and white ... D&D 3.5 - Rules Compendium page 140


Spontaneous Casting
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can castany spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters. Sucha spellcaster’s class level limits the number of spells he cancast. A high ability score might allow such spellcasters tocast a few extra spells, and the class defines the ability scorethat governs spellcasting. A spellcaster must have a score of at least 10 + a spell’s level in the ability score that governsspellcasting to cast that spell.

[Ettina]

Well, the example ultimate magus they have in the Complete Arcane (http://www.reality.net/dnd/pdf/DnD%20-%20Complete%20Mage%20-%20iOCR.pdf) was a wizard 4/sorcerer 1. If needing to use spell components disqualified you from being a spontaneous caster, a wizard/sorcerer combo wouldn't qualify, and their own example would be wrong.


KALIND LESCHAY CR 9
Female human wizard 4/sorcerer 1/ultimate magus 4
NG Medium humanoid
Init +1; Senses Listen -1 , Spot -1
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 18
(+4 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dexterity)
hp 33 (9 HD)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +9
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +2/mwk quarterstaff +6 (1d6+2)
Ranged mwk darts +5 (1d4)
Base Atk +4; Grp +4
Special Actions augmented casting 5/day
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 7th, choose spells as CL 5th):
2nd (5/day)—arcane turmoil* (DC 15), invisibility, rope trickB
1st (7/day)—charm person*, color spray (DC 14), mage armor, orb of sound, lesserCA (+4 ranged touch), shield+
0 (6/day)—detect magic, daze (DC 13), message, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance
+ Already cast
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 8th, choose spells as 6th):
3rd—arcane sight (2), clairaudience/clairvoyance
2nd—detect thoughts (DC 15), locate object, obscure object, scorching ray (+4 ranged touch)
1st—comprehend languages, dawnburst* (DC 14), sleep, unseen servant
0—arcane mark, disrupt undead (+4 ranged touch), ghost sound (DC 13), mending
Abilities Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 16
SQ Arcane spell power +2, augmented casting 5/day, expanded spell knowledge
Feats Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Scribe ScrollB, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Concentration), Weapon Focus (ray)
Skills Bluff +7, Concentration +14, Decipher Script +13, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Knowledge (history) +13, Knowledge (the planes) +13, Listen -1 , Spellcraft +15, Spot -1 , Survival -1 (+1 on other planes), Use Magic Device +5 (+9 scrolls)
Possessions +2/masterwork quarterstaff, 10 masterwork darts, cloak of Charisma +2
Spellbook spells prepared plus 0—all; 1st—charm person, Tenser's floating disk; 2nd—arcane lock, allied footsteps*, rope trick
Hook "Have you seen this? This is fascinating!"

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, the example ultimate magus they have in the Complete Arcane (http://www.reality.net/dnd/pdf/DnD%20-%20Complete%20Mage%20-%20iOCR.pdf) was a wizard 4/sorcerer 1. If needing to use spell components disqualified you from being a spontaneous caster, a wizard/sorcerer combo wouldn't qualify, and their own example would be wrong.

That's not really a good argument, considering that a lot of the sample characters in the official books aren't legal by the rules or have mistakes in their descriptions/stat blocks. :smallamused:

[Tiri]

Spontaneous spellcasting is not having to decide what spell to use a spell slot for before it is expended. That's why it's called spontaneous spellcasting, because the choice of spell is not predetermined. Any character who can do this can cast spells spontaneously, whether through having sorcerer-like casting or some feat or ACF as a prepared caster.

[Andezzar]

that something my Dm was arguing with me about that Sorcerers do not use spell components.

but here i found it black and white ... D&D 3.5 - Rules Compendium page 140


Spontaneous Casting
Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can castany spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters. Sucha spellcaster’s class level limits the number of spells he cancast. A high ability score might allow such spellcasters tocast a few extra spells, and the class defines the ability scorethat governs spellcasting. A spellcaster must have a score of at least 10 + a spell’s level in the ability score that governsspellcasting to cast that spell.That quote has nothing to do with whether sorcerers use components or not. Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) are Verbal, Somatic, Material, (Divine) Focus and XP. They specify what is needed to cast a spell. The spontaneity defines whether a caster needs to prepare a spell before being able to cast it. If the spell is prepared (or the caster does not need to prepare it), he always has to provide all components required by the spell description. To my knowledge there are no casters that can refuse to provide all components to all their spells.

Also note that Ultimate Magus does not require the character to be a spontaneous caster but that it requires the character to be able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells.

[Tiri]

Well, anyone who can cast spells spontaneously is technically a spontaneous caster.

[nyjastul69]

The term spontaneous casting was redefined midgame, so to speak. Both clerics and druids have a class feature called spontaneous casting, sorcerers do not. Sorcerers are non prepared casters. Spontaneous casters swap out a prepared spell for some other spell. That is the original definition. At some point someone decided to call nonprepared casters spontaneous casters and it stuck. Yay for sloppy terminology.

[Andezzar]

Well, anyone who can cast spells spontaneously is technically a spontaneous caster.Yeah, but a spontaneous caster may not be able to spontaneously cast spells. He might have expended all slots, have his casting stat reduced below 10 etc.

[Tiri]

Yeah, but a spontaneous caster may not be able to spontaneously cast spells. He might have expended all slots, have his casting stat reduced below 10 etc.

I don't see how that's relevant.

[Andezzar]

Well you need to be able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells to take the first level of ultimate Magus. If the encounter that gave you enough XP to do so also left you unable to cast spontaneously, you could not take that PrC that level. It gets even worse with the dysfunctional extra rules for PrCs from CW and CArc.

It does not help much for the UM, as the class features advance a spontaneous casting class instead of any class that allows you to cast spontaneously but you could take some PrCs , feats or other abilities which require spontaneous casting instead of having levels in a spontaneous casting class, by acquiring the ability to cast spontaneously without such a class.

[Necroticplague]

Using spell components doesn't mean you aren't a spontaneous caster. Sorcerers use spell components just like wizards do, and they're the archetypal spontaneous casters.

Incidentally, it's not always a spellbook that makes you a prepared spellcaster. Clerics are non-spontaneous casters, because every morning they pray to their diety telling him whatever spells they want to use that day.

Actually, clerics are technically spontaneous spellcaster, because they can spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict. Same for Druids and SNA.

[nyjastul69]

Actually, clerics are technically spontaneous spellcaster, because they can spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict. Same for Druids and SNA.

Clerics and druids are not 'technically' spontaneous casters. They are actual spontaneous casters. Nonpreparade casters are not 'technically speaking' spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casting differs from nonprepared casting. Again, I say, sloppy language.

[Urpriest]

Sorcerors don't use material components in Pathfinder, but they still definitely use all other components. Your DM is just wrong.

[EisenKreutzer]

Well you need to be able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells to take the first level of ultimate Magus. If the encounter that gave you enough XP to do so also left you unable to cast spontaneously, you could not take that PrC that level. It gets even worse with the dysfunctional extra rules for PrCs from CW and CArc.

Yeah, no this isn't how it works.

[Andezzar]

Yeah, no this isn't how it works.It actually is. You need to fulfil all prerequisites for a PrC to take the first level of it. You cannot postpone levelling up after you have gotten the necessary number of XPs, except for immediately crafting an item.


Unlike the basic classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

Advancing a Level: When your character’s XP total reaches at least the minimum XP needed for a new character level (see Table 3–2), he or she “goes up a level.” For example, when Tordek obtains 1,000 or more XP, he becomes a 2nd-level character. As soon as he accumulates a total of 3,000 XP or higher (2,000 more than he had when he gained 2nd level), he reaches 3rd level. Going up a level provides the character with several immediate benefits (see below).There is no option to wait here. The character goes up a level. Period.

However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.That is the only exception.
Lastly the Ultimate Magus PrC requires the character to be able to cast 1st level spells sponateously among other things.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Any metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook

While the likelihood of not being able to cast those spells or not fulfilling one of the other requirements when the character levels up, varies with your DM's XP granting habits, it is RAW that if you do not fulfill one requirement, you cannot select that PrC.

[EisenKreutzer]

You still count as being able to cast the spells, even though you cannot cast them right at that moment. It's a class feature.

[Andezzar]

You still count as being able to cast the spells, even though you cannot cast them right at that moment. It's a class feature.Please quote that rule. The prerequisite is not some theoretical ability to cast spells if some conditions are changed, or the presence of a class feature, but an actual ability to cast spells.

To cast a spell you must have the prerequisite ability score and the spell prepared in a slot or an unexpended spell slot of the appropriate level. If you expend all spell slots and/or do not have a high enough casting stat you are not able to cast spells.

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

[...]

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.Once that number is cast he can no longer cast spells.

[EisenKreutzer]

Having the ability to cast spells of a certain level has nothing to do with available spell slots.

[Andezzar]

Having the ability to cast spells of a certain level has nothing to do with available spell slots.Another baseless claim unless you quote a rule.

[EisenKreutzer]

Another baseless claim unless you quote a rule.

There is no clear-cut mechanical definition of the term "ability to cast X level spells," you know that. This means that there is no clear RAW on this, which leaves us with interpretation and trying to discernt he RAI. It is my interpretation that "ability to cast X level spells" was intended to mean that the character has enough levels in a spellcasting class to cast the relevant spells. YMMV, but there is nothing in the rules to support your interpretation, while mine has atleast some internal consistency.

[Andezzar]

Without a in book definition there is plain English. Someone who does not have the tools to cast spells (i.e. the stats and the spell slots) cannot do so. He is unable to cast spells.

If the intention was to allow characters temporarily unable to cast spells to qualify, the writers could easily have written "enough levels in a spellcasting class that does not require preparation to be granted two 1st level spell slots".

I don't know what the writers' intentions were, but the RAW is clear, someone who cannot cast spells at the moment is not able to cast spells at the moment. Only that moment is relevant for the qualification of PrCs.

I do not advocate to play like that, but the rules are clear.

[EisenKreutzer]

The RAW is not clear, because having the ability to cast a spell is not the same as having the means to cast that spell right now.

A sorcerer who has used up all his 1st level spell slots still has the ability to cast 1st level spells. That ability is granted by his class at level 1. He might not be able to od it right here and now, but he is able to cast 1st level spells. Just like I am able to run, but can't right now because I am sitting down.

[Andezzar]

The problem is that the prerequisites cannot be fulfilled at a later point and you cannot postpone leveling up. So temporary inability is the same as permanent inability. Both prevent the character from taking that PrC.

[EisenKreutzer]

The prerequisites do not have to be fulfilled later, because you already fulfill them. You have the ability, whether or not you are able to utilize it.

[Flickerdart]

By that same logic, a character who has already used his standard and swift actions for the round can no longer cast spells and is immediately disqualified from all his casting PrCs.

[EisenKreutzer]

And what about Feats with similiar requirements? Do you lose them when you have used up the required spell slots, and no longer qualify for them?

[Andezzar]

By that same logic, a character who has already used his standard and swift actions for the round can no longer cast spells and is immediately disqualified from all his casting PrCs.No, only those PrCs from CArc and CW. Only those must continually fulfill the prerequisites. All other PrCs only require the prerequisites to be fulfilled when the first level is taken (see the DMG quote above). There is no later disqualification for the rest.


And what about Feats with similiar requirements? Do you lose them when you have used up the required spell slots, and no longer qualify for them?Not the feats but their benefits:
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm sorry Andezzar, but there is nothing in the rules which supports your interpretation as far as I can see. It's all too vague, and "ability to cast" does not neccessarily mean what you claim it means, as I have demonstrated.

[Flickerdart]

All other PrCs only require the prerequisites to be fulfilled when the first level is taken (see the DMG quote above).
Yeah, and if you already acted in the round that you level up, you have no actions left to cast spells and thus can't qualify for casting PrCs, by your twisted logic. Actually, any "can do X" requirement becomes unattainable - you can't do anything because in this exact moment you have no actions left.

[EisenKreutzer]

"That is the slowest car ever!"

"Uhh, it's a Jaguar, theyre pretty fast."

"It's not moving fast right now."

"No, it hasn't got any gas in the tank."

"If it can't move fast now, then it's not a fast car."

[Torroc]

Ok now we are off topic. The question is what is a Spontaneous spell caster. My Dm is claiming there is some errta post somewere that clears this entire mess up but will not provide it. But he is claming even with that statment from the rule book that a sorc, is the only TRUE Spontaneous spell caster and that it dosnt even need components to cast as its casting from the magic's in its own body...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Off the top of my head strict spontaneous casters:
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (UA)
Mystic (DLCS)
Spirit Shaman (CDiv)
Favored Soul (CDiv)
Shugenja (CDiv)
Sorcerer (PHB)
Bard (PHB)
Warmage (CArc)
Beguiler (PHB II)
Dread Necromancer (HoH)

Then there are the classes which include features that allow them to cast spontaneously, such a wizard, cleric, and druid.

To be clear this is not an exhaustive list, but if you can cast a spell without preparing it ahead of time you are casting spontaneously and thus a spontaneous caster.

[AmberVael]

Ok now we are off topic. The question is what is a Spontaneous spell caster. My Dm is claiming there is some errta post somewere that clears this entire mess up but will not provide it. But he is claming even with that statment from the rule book that a sorc, is the only TRUE Spontaneous spell caster and that it dosnt even need components to cast as its casting from the magic's in its own body...

But a sorcerer does use spell components. :smallconfused:

This sounds like a bunch of weird crap that your DM needs to cite or just state as houserules for it to be anything meaningful.

And he's not going to be able to do the first one because no such thing exists.

[Mato]

... Ok this is an issue I have run in to with my current Dm... Im under the understanding any spell caster who dose not use a spell book is a Spontaneous spell caster. Ok... SO i try to go in to the ultimate magnus class only to get swated down becouse my dm states it uses spell conponetes its not a Spontaneous spell casterSpontaneous spellcasters say they cast spells spontaneously, they also use a mechanic that allows them to expend unspent spell slots to cast any spell they know. Rest recovers the spent slots. Prepared spellcasters say they prepare spells, they fill spell slots with prepared spells and cast prepared spells. Rest allows them to refill a slot (PHB chapter 10). This is generally why wizards cannot make usage of sorcerer-related effects and why sorcerer's cannot use preparation effects.

Some classes are prepared with a near-spontaneous option. This ability is based on preparing a spell slot like normal, either with a spell, or held in "reserve" depending on the feat or class ability's exact text, and the prepared spell can spontaneously be converted into another. Conversion abilities follows, that is not meets, the special rules of spontaneous casting such as increased metamagic casting time, but otherwise function according to that class's normal spellcasting (RC 138). But there is a special exception worth noting, the Sage has suggested a spontaneous domain wizard can meet reserve feat requires based on the idea that it's not game altering. That is of course a suggestion and not "RAW", but if a Sage suggestion helps convince your DM to allow something than more power to you.

The rest of the posts I hope explained things similar to that.

[Urpriest]

Ok now we are off topic. The question is what is a Spontaneous spell caster. My Dm is claiming there is some errta post somewere that clears this entire mess up but will not provide it. But he is claming even with that statment from the rule book that a sorc, is the only TRUE Spontaneous spell caster and that it dosnt even need components to cast as its casting from the magic's in its own body...

Why? Or do you mean cannot provide it?

Anyway, the simplest way to prove him wrong is to show him a Sorc-only spell that has components. Most of the ones in Races of the Dragon do.