inspire courage singing 'evidence' for free action..

[animewatcha]

This is meant as a 'oh by the way' info-dump when I have to bow out the campaign due to work and/or the campaign ends. Group says inspire courage ( and it's like despite no explicit mention of concentration ) requires standard each round. They equate maintain to concentrate. I need book-proof from items, prestige classes, etc. outside the PHB for this. Attempts to talk have led to arguing to no avail.

I know of Crystal echoblade. I know one or two prestige classes that do dual songs have wording like 'if either require main or concentrate'. What I need is a list of all of them as an overkill-evidence-dump.

-sidenote- Finding another group isn't an option due to not knowing enough people in a spread out town with me having no car. Leaving the group leaves a DM with only 2 players that are husband-wife with me feeling like an ass. Both options are out. Also, the group hasn't had any experience with Dragonfire Inspiration. Needless to say, 2d6 extra damage ( DM is even doing this to 'weaponlike' spells like orbs of fire ) is making the encounters go a bit faster.

End result being a better understanding of everyone playing bards in future for 3.5e

[XionUnborn01]

I'm confused. Are you asking whether or not Inspire Courage requires a standard action to maintain every round? Because according to the PHB:


Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic
music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must
take a standard action each round to maintain the ability.

So yes, Inspire Courage requires that the Bard use his standard action every round to keep the bonus active (and then for 5 round after he stops). This is assuming that the Bard has no feats, items, or class abilities that let him maintain two songs.

If you're asking something else, then I have no idea.

[Marlowe]

Except that Inspire Courage does NOT require Concentration. Note that "Some" means "Not all". Bardic muisc abilities that require concentration say so under their individual listings. Inspire Courage is NOT one of them.

IC takes a standard action to begin. Maintaining it does not take actions.

[XionUnborn01]

Huh. I had missed that Fascinate explicitly called out needing to concentrate. In overlooking that I didn't see anything that said one way or the other about concentration so by that I interpreted that they all required concentration and that it was just a weird clause they put in.

You appear to be correct though, I apologize. Re-reading does seem to show that there's not an action called out to maintain.

[animewatcha]

You can see this. I can see this. This needs to be shown through spells, items, etc. outside the PHB for any chance of me being able to convince.

[Extra Anchovies]

You can see this. I can see this. This needs to be shown through spells, items, etc. outside the PHB for any chance of me being able to convince.

There isn't going to be anything outside the PHB, because whether Inspire Courage takes an action each turn is covered in the PHB. Your fellow players either have not read the rules or are being stupid, and you should let them know as such.

[Kraken]

There isn't going to be anything outside the PHB, because whether Inspire Courage takes an action each turn is covered in the PHB. Your fellow players either have not read the rules or are being stupid, and you should let them know as such.

Pretty much this. People get pretty stuck to their conception of the rules if they've played that way for a while. I'm reminded of a group I joined was collectively certain that d20 rolls of any sort naturally failed on a roll of 1, and I assured them that there was no such rule. They at first demanded I prove that no such rule exists. It took a couple sessions, but I finally was able to explain to them that proving a negative is virtually impossible in this context, short of going over the entirety D&D rules text line by line with them. I finally got them to relent (mostly) by offering to buy dinner for every session for the life of the campaign if they could then prove that the rule did exist.

[Vhaidara]

Idea.

Start singing in a loud, obnoxious voice. Then, while still singing, punch one of them in the face. While they are rubbing their nose, ask them to explain how you just took a standard action while maintaining your song.

If they complain, do it again, this time hitting them twice in 6 seconds and use this as evidence that you have a BAB of at least +6.

If they keep complaining, do it again, but this time 3 punches. Now you have BAB +11. Now, if someone with Bard levels has BAB +11, it isn't unreasonable to assume a degree of diplomancy is at work. So mention that you bound Naberious IRL this morning, and are taking 10 to diplomance them to your side of the argument

[Extra Anchovies]

Idea.

Start singing in a loud, obnoxious voice. Then, while still singing, punch one of them in the face. While they are rubbing their nose, ask them to explain how you just took a standard action while maintaining your song.

If they complain, do it again, this time hitting them twice in 6 seconds and use this as evidence that you have a BAB of at least +6.

If they keep complaining, do it again, but this time 3 punches. Now you have BAB +11. Now, if someone with Bard levels has BAB +11, it isn't unreasonable to assume a degree of diplomancy is at work. So mention that you bound Naberious IRL this morning, and are taking 10 to diplomance them to your side of the argument

Wait. Wait. Did they Guy At The Gym fallacy actually help us? I'm confused.

[jiriku]

Put me in the skeptics' camp. Your reading rests on an assumption that it is possible to perform with an instrument as a free action, or without any action at all. I find that a very dubious assertion. It is not consistent with how the Inspire Courage ability worked in previous editions, nor with the 3.5 description of the Perform skill and similar skills, nor with my life experience as a professional musician.

[Marlowe]

Put me in the skeptics' camp. Your reading rests on an assumption that it is possible to perform with an instrument as a free action, or without any action at all. I find that a very dubious assertion. It is not consistent with how the Inspire Courage ability worked in previous editions, nor with the 3.5 description of the Perform skill and similar skills, nor with my life experience as a professional musician.

Technically speaking, although Inspire Courage requires the perform skill, it does not use it. Most adventuring Bards do not USE instruments. Also, technically speaking, what happened in other editions is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

There is no "skeptics camp". Just a bunch of people who don't bother reading the rules.

[jiriku]

So... you are skeptical about the existence of the skeptics' camp? Welcome, brother. You were one of us and never knew it. :smallbiggrin:

If your starting point for interpreting the rules is to declare that you're going to ignore context and precedent while assigning weight to what "most adventuring bards" do (as if you or anyone else could ever know how "most" bards are played in a world-wide hobby game), well... that's probably not the weakest way to frame an argument that I've ever seen but I wouldn't recommend you use it when you audition for the debate team.

[lsfreak]

Technically speaking, although Inspire Courage requires the perform skill, it does not use it. Most adventuring Bards do not USE instruments.

Inspire Courage even says "song or poetics" where all the other forms say "music or poetics," which you could probably make an argument for actually barring pure instrumentation for inspire courage. I wouldn't take that reading and would argue taking that stance is probably etymological fallacy concerning the word "song," but still. (It also doesn't really say anything about having to concentrate, as Inspire Greatness has the normal "music or poetics" but doesn't require concentration).

[Hrugner]

If inspire courage required a standard action to maintain it would have been noted in the description as it is with fascinate. Further, if all bardic performances required a standard action to maintain, there would be no specific need to call out other standard actions as being unavailable while maintaining a performance.

As a method of convincing them that concentration needs to be specifically called for in the ability, show them melodic casting (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Melodic_Casting) and ask which performances it allows you to cast during.

[squiggit]

If your starting point for interpreting the rules is to declare that you're going to ignore context and precedent
I'm not sure what the value of precedent here is, especially since 3.5 is so wildly different than previous editions to begin with.

And I certainly don't see how you can argue placing that precedent above the actual rules either.

[Marlowe]

So... you are skeptical about the existence of the skeptics' camp? Welcome, brother. You were one of us and never knew it. :smallbiggrin:

If your starting point for interpreting the rules is to declare that you're going to ignore context and precedent while assigning weight to what "most adventuring bards" do (as if you or anyone else could ever know how "most" bards are played in a world-wide hobby game), well... that's probably not the weakest way to frame an argument that I've ever seen but I wouldn't recommend you use it when you audition for the debate team.

I don't have to "Audition for the Debate team" Sunshine, I was on it.

I started by argument not by "ignoring context and precedent", but by pointing out that your argument was based on false and misleading premisesand self-evidently false assumption.. Which it did, and has remained.

I'll also note you have continued it by misrepresentation of the opposing argument and thinly-veiled personal sniping, and will close by pointing out that the first of these is obviously an invalid basis for a rebuttal, and that the second considered poor form in any debate. Good day sir, we hope you enjoy reading the rules on the way out.

[animewatcha]

If inspire courage required a standard action to maintain it would have been noted in the description as it is with fascinate. Further, if all bardic performances required a standard action to maintain, there would be no specific need to call out other standard actions as being unavailable while maintaining a performance.

As a method of convincing them that concentration needs to be specifically called for in the ability, show them melodic casting (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Melodic_Casting) and ask which performances it allows you to cast during.

I'm looking for stuff like Melodic casting ( Thank you ) or Crystal Echoblade. Actions I am wanting to is inspire courage via Singing, free action to maintain song so I can attack. Group wants to argue standard each round. Negating the second half of Melodic casting and the usefulness of crystal echoblade.

[Marlowe]

If your group really is that unshakably illiterate, just activate IC and don't bother sustaining it. Treat it as a buff with five (or ten, with Lingering Song) rounds duration. Most combats don't last that long. Doesn't help you with Crystal Echoblade I'm sorry.

Really, the "Standard Action Each Round" "interpretation", besides being based entirely upon people just making schist up to annoy others, changes nothing except adding a bit of extra hassle counting down the remaining duration.

[Hrugner]

I'm looking for stuff like Melodic casting ( Thank you ) or Crystal Echoblade. Actions I am wanting to is inspire courage via Singing, free action to maintain song so I can attack. Group wants to argue standard each round. Negating the second half of Melodic casting and the usefulness of crystal echoblade.

I think your best chance at convincing them is asking them which song the second half of melodic casting is supposed to work with.

[animewatcha]

My group considers the Main FAQ as rules.. does this say what I think it means...

What type of action does it take for a bard to keep
singing or reciting poetry?
Unless the ability states that it requires concentration (a
standard action), it doesn’t require any kind of action to
maintain a bardic music effect. Technically, a bard incapable of
taking any actions wouldn’t be able to maintain a bardic music
effect, so it’s probably safest to describe it as a free action (like
talking).

If anything else...

If my bard has the rage ability, can he use bardic music
while raging?
You can’t use any ability that requires concentration while
raging, nor can you use any Charisma-based skill other than
Intimidate (so Perform is out). Thus, only a few of the bardic
music abilities are available to a raging bard:
• Countersong: No (Perform check required).
• Fascinate: No (Perform check required).
• Inspire Courage: Yes.
• Inspire Competence: Only lasts 1 round per use
(concentration required).
• Suggestion: No, because you can’t use fascinate.
• Inspire Greatness: Yes.
• Song of Freedom: No (requires concentration).
• Inspire Heroics: Yes.
• Mass Suggestion: No, because you can’t use
fascinate.

[Segev]

My group considers the Main FAQ as rules.. does this say what I think it means...

What type of action does it take for a bard to keep
singing or reciting poetry?
Unless the ability states that it requires concentration (a
standard action), it doesn’t require any kind of action to
maintain a bardic music effect. Technically, a bard incapable of
taking any actions wouldn’t be able to maintain a bardic music
effect, so it’s probably safest to describe it as a free action (like
talking).

If anything else...

If my bard has the rage ability, can he use bardic music
while raging?
You can’t use any ability that requires concentration while
raging, nor can you use any Charisma-based skill other than
Intimidate (so Perform is out). Thus, only a few of the bardic
music abilities are available to a raging bard:
• Countersong: No (Perform check required).
• Fascinate: No (Perform check required).
• Inspire Courage: Yes.
• Inspire Competence: Only lasts 1 round per use
(concentration required).
• Suggestion: No, because you can’t use fascinate.
• Inspire Greatness: Yes.
• Song of Freedom: No (requires concentration).
• Inspire Heroics: Yes.
• Mass Suggestion: No, because you can’t use
fascinate.

Very clearly, yes.

[Gale]

Surprisingly, The Player's Handbook entry on Inspire Courage does not say it requires a standard action to maintain: Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.
It does however state that the effect of Inspire Courage lasts for 5 additional rounds after a Bard stops performing. This implies it has a limited duration unless you take another standard action to maintain it every turn. It's not mandatory that you concentrate on it, the effect simply won't be permanent. If combat last longer than 5 rounds you'll inevitably have to reactivate it costing you another standard action and use of your bardic music. However, there are ways around this. The Animate Instrument spell will allow you to maintain the effect continuously and the feat Lingering Song from Complete Adventurer extends the duration of Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, and Inspire Heroics to 1 minute (10 rounds).
Bottom line, it’s pretty clear that Inspire Courage requires a standard action to maintain. Otherwise there would be no need for the Lingering Song feat or arguably Animate Instrument. But the effect doesn’t immediately disappear afterwards so it isn’t a huge problem.

[Hrugner]

There's a list of things that are prohibited while performing such as spell casting. That's why those things exist.

[Segev]

It does however state that the effect of Inspire Courage lasts for 5 additional rounds after a Bard stops performing. This implies it has a limited duration unless you take another standard action to maintain it every turn.That's really not implied at all. While performing, there are certain things you cannot do; they are listed explicitly. Spellcasting is a biggie. The lack of statement that it requires a standard action to maintain means that it does NOT require one, since the RAW elsewhere both state that those which do require it will say so and there exist others which do say they require concentration, while there are none which say explicitly that they do not.

All the rule about its effects persisting past the point the bard ceases to maintain it means is that the bard's inspiration remains in effect beyond the end of his performance. It says nothing about the kind of action needed to maintain the performance.

[lsfreak]

Surprisingly, The Player's Handbook entry on Inspire Courage does not say it requires a standard action to maintain:

You missed this part under Bardic Music:

Bardic Music: Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

Compare Inspire Competence:

The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear the bard’s music. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as the bard concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. A bard can’t inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Surprisingly, The Player's Handbook entry on Inspire Courage does not say it requires a standard action to maintain...Bottom line, it’s pretty clear that Inspire Courage requires a standard action to maintain. Otherwise there would be no need for the Lingering Song feat or arguably Animate Instrument. But the effect doesn’t immediately disappear afterwards so it isn’t a huge problem.

It's not that surprising that IC doesn't say it takes a standard action to continue, if that wasn't the intention. While I'm readily aware that Wizards forgetting to clarify on things happens quite often, there are other explanations as to how it was supposed to be handled. A free action seems the most implicitly accepted. The fact that it takes no skill check applied to it also helps support this, and means Animate Instrument does nothing here. Lingering Song has many uses beyond what you would purport, most of which simply involve an inability to continue making free actions (such as being stunned or dazed, a silence spell going up, feigning death, ect.). While I can see an argument that it isn't much of a deal because most fights are settled very quickly, that argument doesn't support the idea that it should be a standard action to continue.

[Segev]

Animate instrument is still useful because most instruments occupy at least one hand, and some also occupy the mouth. If you want both hands and/or your mouth for something else, like casting spells or giving battle orders...

[Necroticplague]

You aren't gonna find a rule specifically stating what action is required to keep singing because there doesn't need to be one. If it doesn't state what action is required, is doesn't require an action. So, since it doesn't say 'this requires a standard action to maintain',or 'this song requires concentration', it doesn't. Besides, this isn't how logic works. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with them to prove that it requires a standard action, and in absence of any such proof, it doesn't. That's true in logic, and especially true in exception-based rules systems (of which DnD is).

[Chronos]

All of the rules for Inspire Courage are in one place, it's an obvious place, and we know where it is. Further, the rules for Inspire Courage aren't particularly long. It's ordinarily hard to prove a negative, because you have to search all over. Here, though, you only have to search a couple of paragraphs. If, in those couple of paragraphs, you don't find a rule requiring a standard action, then there isn't such a rule.