Advice for a Wizard/Scout build [Given up]

[SolarSystem]

After the party rogue decided that he had no more interest in participating, I've decided to step in to fill a gaping hole in our party by multiclassing.

Party status: My own character is a wizard (conjurer) and we also have a monk, a fighter, and an npc healbot cleric who isn't always available. We're all 3rd level.

I have a Dex of 18 to help my rays hit, so the rogueish dex skills will work well too.

I am choosing scout instead of rogue for a few reasons, those being that Survival and Track are proving to be things the party desperately wants to have with the way our DM is running things and Charisma being my dump stat (at 7!) so the lack of cha skills isn't an issue. Fast Movement is also a nice bonus to help keep my unarmored mage away from the enemy!

Given this course and my school specialization, I'm thinking of going down the point blank shot feat tree with the switch in focus from pure spellcaster.

Any ideas or suggestions on feats, potential PrCs and anything else that might make this somewhat odd combination work?

Level 4 (and my multiclassing) is coming up soon!

EDIT: I'll add that there aren't too many restrictions on sources, other than the DM of course wants to review any non-core material prior to using it. If it's liable to break the game, odds are it won't be approved, otherwise it should be fine.

EDIT Decided this wasn't going to work. Going to only add trapfinding, and not also tracking, to my abilities.
Wizard/Rogue/Spellwarp Sniper :smallsigh:

[darksolitaire]

Do you plan on using Skirmish to deal damage? Unseen Seer from Ultimate Mage is nice hybrid PrC if you have already picked the right skills. Swiftblade has some synergy with Skirmish and even has pseudo-skirmish that stacks with the real thing.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Any ideas or suggestions on feats, potential PrCs and anything else that might make this somewhat odd combination work?

Honestly? There aren't any good Wizard/Scout PrCs, since the pairing is...well, pretty awful. As a full caster you're pretty much the worst possible option to multiclass into a non-caster. Rogue at least has some fun options with Arcane Trickster, but Scout has very little support.

If the skills are the issue, have you considered taking feat options to make them class skills, then simply using your high Intelligence to put ranks in the respective skills?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd suggest taking a level in Wilderness Rogue instead of Scout so you can qualify for Unseen Seer. It's pretty much the only way to make a rogue/arcane character work without completely destroying your casting progression.

[Bullet06320]

conjuror builds are some of the most powerful builds in the game with their potential to do stuff with summoned critters
for tracking summon fiendish wolves, they have the scent ability and are available with summon monster 2
for finding and disarming setting off traps, summon celestial monkeys available with summon monster 1
granted for your level, you only get 3 rounds, but that will grow with levels, extend spell comes in handy here

this might help
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5

but I do 2nd the idea of rogue instead of scout and going the arcane trickster route if you want the skills

[Karl Aegis]

All of those goodies you're looking at can be replaced by the spell Haste. Getting more castings of Haste will be better for your (weak) party than being able to move slightly faster.

Then again, casting haste also replaces most of the monk's class features. Cast at your own risk.

[SolarSystem]

Aye, this is all more or less as expected.

Arcane Trickster appears to be the best available PrC for a wizard/rogue mix without losing too much. I do find the ranged legerdemain is not appealing as an ability though.

I hadn't considered Unseen Seer, but having taken a look, I have to say that I'm a conjurer, not a diviner! I honestly would have made divination a prohibited school if the rules allowed it. Really not interested. (Although True Strike does come in handy, and I suppose Identify will be required too.)

Swiftblade and having to forgo all 3rd level spells except Haste (transmutation) for a whole level is neither possible (bonus slot can only be a conjuration spell!) nor desireable.
Also, I prefer to remain a ranged fighter. The required and gained feats are more suitable to a mobile melee fighter.

I didn't actually expect to find a PrC that would work for my concept, but I could always hope someone knew some obscure thing!
I think my only option on that front is attempting to make one myself... >.>

The Wilderness Rogue does appear to be a viable alternative to the Scout for my purposes, so I may choose it instead. Going to have to think about that one.

Thanks for the answers! :)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Unseen Seer is less about the divination and more about the fact that you only need a single level of Rogue to qualify. Arcane Trickster needs at least 2 non-caster levels.

[SolarSystem]

Alright, so I took a second, closer look at the Unseen Seer after your comment.

Still don't care at all for the divination spell power bonus, as I am unlikely to be casting many (if any) spells where it matters in any way.

Regardless of all that, the fact that Craft is not on the skill list pretty much removes it from consideration due to DM requirement for a craft/perform/profession skill and my choosing a craft.

[darksolitaire]

Still don't care at all for the divination spell power bonus, as I am unlikely to be casting many (if any) spells where it matters in any way.


So, one of the many class features doesn't do much for your build. :smallconfused: You can take only 5 levels. Losing 1 caster level for some spells is irrelevant if you're using conjurations which tend to not allow spell resistance. Or of you lose 3 levels to divination spell power, you can take practiced spellcaster which will also off set the lost caster level from Scout.



Regardless of all that, the fact that Craft is not on the skill list pretty much removes it from consideration due to DM requirement for a craft/perform/profession skill and my choosing a craft.

Unseen Seer has 6 skill points. You can just stick two points into Craft. :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What race is your character? Can you hire an NPC Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you so you can repick your feats and skills (and get Able Learner)? Can you use retraining in PH2 Chapter 8 to switch your high skill class to 1st level for the x4 skill points?

Someone can get Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Magebred Warbeast Riding Dog if you need to be able to track stuff. Just remember that it gets more skill points and feats as it gains hit dice. That could have a +15 to survival when tracking by scent at your current level, much better than anyone will get by multiclassing.

I would forego multiclassing into a damage dealing role and instead try to be as useful as possible while still being able to find traps. To that end, I'll recommend going Beguiler 2/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magux (CM), and take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at 3rd level so you can apply all ten UM levels toward Wizard. Get Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including Wizard spells you've learned, and it also gives you early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler class spell list. With the above retraining and Psychic Reformation you'll have tons of skill points and can easily keep max ranks in all those useful Beguiler class skills.

[SolarSystem]

So, one of the many class features doesn't do much for your build. :smallconfused: You can take only 5 levels. Losing 1 caster level for some spells is irrelevant if you're using conjurations which tend to not allow spell resistance. Or of you lose 3 levels to divination spell power, you can take practiced spellcaster which will also off set the lost caster level from Scout.

Okay, so one feature of many isn't much, I grant you that, along with your other points.



Unseen Seer has 6 skill points. You can just stick two points into Craft. :smallconfused:
I'm allergic to spending my points cross class. :smalltongue:
More seriously, in my many years of playing 3.x D&D, I only once remember having cc skills on a character, and in the end I really didn't like doing it. I've avoided it entirely since.

Anyway, I will go with the one true arguement here no one can refute: The flavour of the class simply does not fit my vision for my character and as such I won't use it, regardless of the fact that looking strictly at the rules it would be helpful. This is also probably why I was nitpicking at perceived flaws. :smallsmile:

Thanks for the valid points though. I've got idea for an NPC for the next time I take over as our group's DM.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a simple fact that the options for arcane/skillmonkey builds are pretty limited. It's either Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster, with Beguiler as the "all in one class" option. That's pretty much it.

[SolarSystem]

What race is your character? Can you hire an NPC Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you so you can repick your feats and skills (and get Able Learner)? Can you use retraining in PH2 Chapter 8 to switch your high skill class to 1st level for the x4 skill points?
The race is a custom race presented by the DM and not qualified for Able Learner.
DM has proven that Psions exist in this world (we have encountered a sick npc with psionic abilities), they are frowned upon and are in hiding on this world and banned as a PC option. This would probably require a quest, after somehow stumbling upon the existence of this option in-character. Not really a viable option.


Someone can get Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Magebred Warbeast Riding Dog if you need to be able to track stuff. Just remember that it gets more skill points and feats as it gains hit dice. That could have a +15 to survival when tracking by scent at your current level, much better than anyone will get by multiclassing.
As pointed out above, the other characters are a monk and a fighter. They both used charisma as a dump stat. Neither is trained in Handle Animal. This won't work.


I would forego multiclassing into a damage dealing role and instead try to be as useful as possible while still being able to find traps. To that end, I'll recommend going Beguiler 2/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magux (CM), and take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at 3rd level so you can apply all ten UM levels toward Wizard. Get Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including Wizard spells you've learned, and it also gives you early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler class spell list. With the above retraining and Psychic Reformation you'll have tons of skill points and can easily keep max ranks in all those useful Beguiler class skills.
I'm going into a skill role vs a damage dealing, although I already am in a ranged-damage dealing role as a ray-flinging conjurer (with my backup weapon being a light crossbow). Sneak attack et. al could add to those.
Adding Beguiler/UM does seem like an intersting idea, but I lose out on taking saurvival as a class skill as I would with a Scout or Wilderness Rogue. I do like the idea though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A conjurer should scout with summons, and not lose any caster levels. If you want to scout in person, dip Mindbender and get mindsight. Mindbender does require a bunch of social skills, though.

Scout 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X, with elf wizard levels, can work if you have at least 18 intelligence. If you are a grey elf wizard, using the elf wizard substitution levels, you get Search as a class skill. The first two substitution levels, at the first and third levels of wizard, are pretty good/acceptable (respectively) anyway.

At first level, where you have 48 skill points, you buy 4 ranks in Hide, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot, and a cross-class rank in Spellcraft. At second level, you have 6 skill points, so you buy a rank of Search (5), one in Spellcraft (2), and a rank each in Hide and Spot (5 each). At third level, Search isn't a class skill for you (no substitution level), so you buy a rank each in Hide and Spot (6 each) and two in Spellcraft (4). At fourth level, Search is a class skill for you again, and you buy a rank in Hide and Spot (7 each) and two in Search (7). At fifth level, you buy a rank each in Hide, Search, and Spot, and then you're done.

Of course, this is pretty lousy, because you don't have Concentration, or anything much in the way of wizardly skills at all. You can fix that once you get into Unseen Seer though, with 6 + int skill points per level. You can compensate for the lost CL for non-divination spells by using Practiced Spellcaster, so your effective caster level is either full, or full plus your bonus, for divination spells.

If you are going to be a skirmishing wizard, you might like the High One Warrior Wizard (Champions of Valor web enhancement) substitution levels, which are for the second, fourth and fifth levels of wizard. You get Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal and Ride as class skills. The first and third substitution levels aren't so good, but the middle one reduces arcane spell failure chance by 20%, in return for a second-level spell slot. Useful if you want that roguish mithril breastplate.

[Lerondiel]

After the party rogue decided that he had no more interest in participating, I've decided to step in to fill a gaping hole in our party by multiclassing.....

I am choosing scout instead of rogue for a few reasons, those being that Survival and Track are proving to be things the party desperately wants to have with the way our DM is running things

Your party needs their primary caster to remain primary....and the fighter to man up and take a level or two of ranger for those needs

[Pluto!]

If you aren't getting level 1's x4 skill bonus, and you aren't using Unseen Seer, Scout levels aren't going to do anything for you. You won't have enough skill points, feats or damage dice to do what you want to do.

To make a tracking archer from where your character is now, I'd use Rogue and Unseen Seer. If US isn't exactly what I wanted, I'd tweak the class by adding the word "Conjuration" in a couple places (both the DMG and PHB encourage adjusting both fluff and crunch to make classes work how you want).

If that were still a non-starter, I'd splash two levels into Ranger, then take Ruathar into Eldritch Knight into Abjurant Champion, grabbing Knowledge Devotion at ECL 6 for attack and damage bonuses, using cross-classed skills to do whatever you want to do (they won't make your character sheet spontaneously combust - honestly).

The other reasonable option would be just going into a casting PrC that has survival. Hathran, Stormcaster, Sentinel of Bharrai, something like that.

[Seharvepernfan]

Honestly? There aren't any good Wizard/Scout PrCs, since the pairing is...well, pretty awful.

Swiftblade.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Swiftblade.

Swiftblade already loses enough casting progression on its own. If you're going to spend enough levels on Scout to actually make a difference you could just scratch the whole arcane casting deal completely, because that's how effective you'll be at it.

Not to mention that 4+int/level skill points with none of the necessary skills in-class doesn't exactly make for a skillmonkey anyway.


Let's be realistic: If you want to fulfill a primary caster role the most casting progression you can afford to lose is 3 levels, and that's already pushing it.
Similarly for a skillmonkey you'll want 6+int skill points, with either the necessary skills in-class or Able Learner (which the OP already said isn't an option here).
Sure, that doesn't leave a lot of options but you're essentially trying to fill 2 class roles at once (even if skillmonkey isn't quite a full role on its own).

Also keep in mind that a really bad skillmonkey can be worse than no skillmonkey at all.

[ace rooster]

Your party needs their primary caster to remain primary....and the fighter to man up and take a level or two of ranger for those needs

In a party where the optimisation level includes a monk and a fighter? I think he can lose some stuff and still be above par. Incidently the monk would be improved in just about every way by going ranger too, and if they insist on going back to monk there is a feat for that (Ascetic hunter CAd). Survival is wis based, so they should be better at it anyway.

How much survival do you need? If you are just looking for a few ranks including track then why not go with a level of ranger. It will lose you a caster level without reliable extra damage, but it is also 2 good saves, decent hp, and full BAB on top of the skills. It would be a huge change in focus but 4 levels of ranger would be enough to get you a divine caster level, meaning you could use wands of CLW as well as qualifying you for abjurant champion. You might even be able to get your wizard levels retconed into this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) variant, giving you a creature with scent instead of your familiar. If you want to go that direction though you may as well go the whole hog and dip the most front loaded variant in existance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).

Cloistered cleric with the travel domain might do you, 6+ skill points including survival. No extra damage, but being a reserve healbot might be worth it.

Spellwarp sniper from CS might be worth a look, giving a sudden strike like ability with a capstone that boosts sneak attack range to 60ft. You only need one level of wilderness rogue to qualify too.

Not really relevant because it doesn't get survival, but I feel that ninja should probably get a mention (at least in part because it never will again :smalltongue:). It gets you wis to AC as well as an untyped +2 to will saves. I assume you would not be getting sneak attack from flanking anyway, so sudden strike is not much worse.

It does irk me a little that there is no PRC that advances both skirmish and casting, as it is a cool image. That said you could just ask your DM to houserule sneak attack advancement to advance skirmish instead. Worst case scenario: they say no (or don't say yes, which is the same thing. The only way this can get ugly is if you push the issue).

[SinsI]

After the party rogue decided that he had no more interest in participating, I've decided to step in to fill a gaping hole in our party by multiclassing.

Party status: My own character is a wizard (conjurer) and we also have a monk, a fighter, and an npc healbot cleric who isn't always available. We're all 3rd level.
Can't you ask the other two players to do that? Switching to combat rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw would hurt them much less than it would hurt you.

[SolarSystem]

Okay reading all this and spending more time thinking, this trying to go into too many directions at once is simply not going to work at all in any way that leaves me satisfied with the results.
I am going to have to pick either tracking or trapfinding as an alternative and forget the other.

With the revelation of the existance of the Spellwarp Sniper I'm thinking that'll be my goal for a PrC. No DD/OL, but at only 5 levels it'll be easy to take an extra level of rogue-type afterwards to manage that deficiency.

I'll see if the Monk is willing to go on a route toward Wild Shape Ranger/Ascetic Hunter to do the tracking.

[Hellborn_Blight]

May I make one suggestion? Consider going Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Yes you will lose flexibility, but because of what Crake pointed out to me in a separate thread, the rules compendium makes a sorcerer a better spellwarp sniper than wizard could ever be. The rules compendium calls out that actions less than full-round actions can only apply sneak attack (and other precision based damage) on the first attack role made even if you make more than one attack role. But on a full round action, you get SA on every roll. So an empowered, or better yet, an invisible scorching ray would get 3 rolls at 11th level and because sorcerers bump casting time to a round for meta-magicked spells, they get SA all three times. Yay loopholes.

[nedz]

Wait until 6th
Take Leadership
Get a Ranger/Scout/Wilderness Rogue Cohort


or take Improved Familiar and grab something suitable.

Or go the Spellwarp sniper route.

[SolarSystem]

Wait until 6th
Take Leadership
Get a Ranger/Scout/Wilderness Rogue Cohort


or take Improved Familiar and grab something suitable.

Or go the Spellwarp sniper route.


May I make one suggestion? Consider going Sorcerer instead of Wizard.

Thank you for failing to read that this is an existing wizard 3 with a high Int [16] & Dex [18] using Charisma [7] as a dump that is going to grab some rogue-type levels, originally Scout and now moving to regular Rogue. Sorcerer is not an option. Leadership is not an option.

For RP reasons I will not be taking Improved Familiar as I like my raven.

As already stated, I'm going the Spellwarp Sniper route.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Thank you for failing to read that this is an existing wizard 3 with a high Int [16] & Dex [18] using Charisma [7] as a dump that is going to grab some rogue-type levels,...

Well, you are most welcome. Because of your thankful response, anytime I can manage to do this in the future for you, I won't hesitate now.