[PF/3.X] Nerfing casters for arena fights

[The Insanity]

I'm making an arena and looking for ideas how could casters be limited for the fights to be more fair. The people who run the arena realized that spells are just too powerful and versatile and it's too easy for casters to just nova, so they came up with a set of rules governing the use of magic. Sorta like in League of Legends, where the champions have only a few abilities (both for simplicity's sake and programing limitations), which in-character is explained as the Institute of War nerfing them for the matches to be fair.
Maybe limiting the number of spells they can use in the arena would be enough?

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm assuming these are spectated fights for entertainment rather than duels for honor/conflict resolution.

It's first and foremost dependent on whether the martial characters involved can stand up to casters at all, which is usually not the case. If you're not making frequent use of Path of War and the related content, I'd separate casters and martial entirely into two different groups, and I'd probably do so even with PoW (and allow 6ths-casters to participate in either group).

Arena fights are supposed to be flashy. Spells in caster/martial duels should be very limited, with only spells pre-approved by referees (or equivalent), i.e. if a caster wants use of a spell, they have to ask to use it (and provide a demonstration if requested). Keep it to things with obvious visual effects, e.g. most evocations and conjurations, plus some transmutation and abjuration effects. Dispel Magic is lame, death/paralysis/sleep/fear other long-duration action-denial is lame, illusions are lame, action-control (Celerity, Time Stop) is lame. Power Words are lame. Invisible self-buffs (True Strike, Heroism) are lame.

Summons are cool, wall of X is cool, flashy buffs like Arcane Spellsurge and Polymorph (when not used to switch to a ranged flier and win by attrition) are cool, black tentacles is cool. Lightning Bolt and Orb of X are cool. Keep it to stuff that looks good.

Alternately (or perhaps additionally), send casters up against monsters. Having a sorcerer go up against a grey render or a behir would be a lot cooler than watching him bring the beatdown on some poor rogue.

[The Insanity]

I'm assuming these are spectated fights for entertainment rather than duels for honor/conflict resolution.
Neither. They're tournaments for prizes and fame.


It's first and foremost dependent on whether the martial characters involved can stand up to casters at all, which is usually not the case. If you're not making frequent use of Path of War and the related content, I'd separate casters and martial entirely into two different groups, and I'd probably do so even with PoW (and allow 6ths-casters to participate in either group).
I had the same idea, but I decided against it. It wouldn't be too fun to have only martials fight. More variety makes for more interesting matches.

[Twurps]

Well: first of all the organizers have realized that wizards using planeshift/astral projection etc is not fun, because spectators then don't get to see anything. So: Rules state that the participant has to be physically present in the arena at all times. leaving in any way means you forfeit the fight.

Second: Participants start the competition without any spells active. Before the actual fight, but already inside the arena, participants get X rounds to prepare there buffs. (In these rounds, if you cast any spell/use any sp/su/ex ability that has ANY effect either on the opponent, or on the area he is in, you forfeit the fight.

Third: Participants have to appear in the fight alone. (Allies can be summoned in the preperation rounds however, same rules then applies to them for the remainder of the preparation time and fight).

forth: particpants can enter with items not exeeding WBL in value.

optional: time stop is disallowed. Not because it's broken, but because it doesn't offer any 'value for money' for the spectators.
optional: contingencies, other that the ones you can prepare during your prep-rounds, are off limits.
optional: Celerity is not allowed, or even strickter: casters are limited to 1 spell per round. casting more that one (not counting contingencies going off), means you forfeit the match.

As safety precautions: spectators are protected by some sort of force-field (Wall of force?) and covered in an AMF just within that forcefield so that participants can 'blast away' freely. Also: Measures have been taken by the organizers to ensure participants don't really die. Be it through contingent revivify's and/or any other spell required. (how else are you going to convince any wizard to participate in such a nerfed fight)

That should make some interesting fights, and also allows 'rematches' where the defeated party can try to counter his opponent better next time. Fights might even be: Best 2 out of 3, or similar. A large variety of magic items is even at hand so the participant that realizes he brought the wrong item's can swap these out (still adhering to WBL rules, and for only a modest percentage of his potential winnings)

[The Insanity]

Well: first of all the organizers have realized that wizards using planeshift/astral projection etc is not fun, because spectators then don't get to see anything. So: Rules state that the participant has to be physically present in the arena at all times. leaving in any way means you forfeit the fight.
As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.


Second: Participants start the competition without any spells active. Before the actual fight, but already inside the arena, participants get X rounds to prepare there buffs. (In these rounds, if you cast any spell/use any sp/su/ex ability that has ANY effect either on the opponent, or on the area he is in, you forfeit the fight.
I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...


Third: Participants have to appear in the fight alone. (Allies can be summoned in the preperation rounds however, same rules then applies to them for the remainder of the preparation time and fight).
I'm also allowing things like animal companions, familiars and similar stuff. They're not OP like spells and some classes/concepts are dependant on them.


forth: particpants can enter with items not exeeding WBL in value.
I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear.


optional: time stop is disallowed. Not because it's broken, but because it doesn't offer any 'value for money' for the spectators.
Spectators aren't the issue. Fairness is. Time Stop isn't particularly OP, Although it might not be available due to being too high level. Depends on what method I'll use for this.


optional: contingencies, other that the ones you can prepare during your prep-rounds, are off limits.
Agree.


optional: Celerity is not allowed, or even strickter: casters are limited to 1 spell per round. casting more that one (not counting contingencies going off), means you forfeit the match.
Don't know about Celerity, but limiting the number of spells per round is too much, I think. If the caster invested in such a strategy (by taking Quicken Spell or something) I'd say let him. Might not even be an issue, depending on how I'll handle this.

[Zanos]

I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear..
That exacerbates the martial vs. caster problem pretty significantly.

[Togo]

I don't allow magic equipment. The participants are supposed to win by their skill, not fancy gear.

That may be an issue. Non-casters gain far more than casters do from magic items, because it gives them access to spell effects.

[Twurps]

As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.
Yeah, I wrote this post on the OP, and got ninja'd. If no spectators, then the showfactor is mute, and so is some of my advice.

Fairness is a thing. However: If you don't allow magic items, it's going to be a caster's only fight anyway probably. And then things like planeshift/timestop/celerity become less of an issue.

If you want melee's in the mix, they are going to need items, and they are going to need to have all the above veto'd.


I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...
Fair point: I was thinking caster vs. caster there, and had an audience in mind that might like both the buffing, and the more spectacular fight that might follow. No prep time is definitely better for melee's. (Given you start them off close to each other, or the point is mute)

[Extra Anchovies]

Note: when I say caster in this post I mean full (i.e. 9ths) caster.


That exacerbates the martial vs. caster problem pretty significantly.

Strongly agreed.


As already said, it's not a show, so this rule would be more for fairness than the spectators's sake.

Then casters and martial characters shouldn't be fighting each other.


I don't know about that. Would it be fair to give casters time to prepare? Martials don't really have anything they could do in that time, so...

Any amount of prep time only increases the huge advantage casters will have. I'd give martials a surprise round to get into melee range or land a ranged attack.


I'm also allowing things like animal companions, familiars and similar stuff. They're not OP like spells and some classes/concepts are dependant on them.

Familiars and companions can be very powerful if optimized and/or used properly. I would ban animal companions and non-PHB familiars (e.g. improved familiar, celestial familiars, etc).


Time Stop isn't particularly OP

Not compared to Gate or Shapchange, but it's one of the most powerful ninth-level spells. But by that point martial characters won't stand a chance unless you ban every spell above third level.


Don't know about Celerity, but limiting the number of spells per round is too much, I think. If the caster invested in such a strategy (by taking Quicken Spell or something) I'd say let him. Might not even be an issue, depending on how I'll handle this.

I'd ban metamagic entirely, or at the very least metamagic reduction effects of all kinds. You'd have to hit casters hard to balance them against, say, a Barbarian in a 1v1.

[The Insanity]

Fairness is a thing. However: If you don't allow magic items, it's going to be a caster's only fight anyway probably.
That's why I made this thread. To get ideas how to limit casters. Although I should specify for future reference that I don't mean houserules, but in-character rules the arena would have.

[The Insanity]

Then casters and martial characters shouldn't be fighting each other.
That's not fun.


Any amount of prep time only increases the huge advantage casters will have. I'd give martials a surprise round to get into melee range or land a ranged attack.
If fighting a caster at his full power, maybe. But this thread is about "nerfing" casters, not improving martials. The caster will be more closer to the martial's power and thus no advantages for either side will be necessary.


Familiars and companions can be very powerful if optimized and/or used properly.
I have no problem with that.


Not compared to Gate or Shapchange, but it's one of the most powerful ninth-level spells. But by that point martial characters won't stand a chance unless you ban every spell above third level.
Which might happen. As I said, it wholy depends on what I come up with or what people will suggest. It might come to, for example, limiting (full) casters to spells of a level not higher than a caster half their level (rounding up).

[With a box]

If it's a show, plan their move beforehand. Like prowrestling organization dose.

[The Insanity]

If it's a show
As was stated, it's not.

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for perfect, metagame balance. Some participants will be stronger than others, due to optimization, being a bit higher level, or simply having the right strategy against a particular opponent. All I'm trying to do is making it more or less equal at the base.

[Extra Anchovies]

If fighting a caster at his full power, maybe. But this thread is about "nerfing" casters, not improving martials. The caster will be more closer to the martial's power and thus no advantages for either side will be necessary.

Okay.
1. No prep time or previously-cast spells for either combatant.
2. Replace spells/day progressions of full casters with those of 6ths-casters.

Not sure what to do about 6ths-casters. Maybe give them the spells/day of 4ths-casters.

[Vhaidara]

Well, you need to ban movement modes. Especially without magical gear.

Fly. Done.

[Twurps]

So: to make melee's vs caster viable, something like:
-1 caster level penalty every 3 levels. (So by the time you normally get to 9, you're now at 6. A gish that would only get to 6 is stuck at 4).
-no prep rounds
-no flying, burrowing, swimming. Land based movement only.
-starting position within 60ft

It would still require a specialized melee build. But a good ToB build (With save-replacing maneuvers) might at this point very well one-shot the caster on a succesfull charge.

The 'no bufffing at all' is a bit harsh though, because it means melee get to play low-level rocket tag just as casters normally do at high levels. I guess if both parties are playing rocket tag, that's still fair, but at that point, why not just flip a coin. If you want the outcome to be dependent on more than 1 roll/round, Casters need a little bit of prepping. (Or better, start them further apart)
Maybe give them prep time, but impose a larger penalty on caster levels. Something like half, rounded down (so you get 5th level spells)

[Jack_Simth]

Neither. They're tournaments for prizes and fame.
That's the motivation for those fighting, sure. The person providing the venue and prizes (also potentially advertising to the crowd), however, almost certainly has an entirely different purpose. What's in it for that person? This is also going to be the person who, in character, is making the rules for the arena, so the rules will reflect that person's purpose.

[The Insanity]

The purpose is to see who's the best at fighting.

I realize that probably the easiest and best solution would be to just ban spellcasters. But by banning them you'd throw out so many cool concepts that I just can't get myself to do it. Even if I'd limit fullcasters to, for example, just 4th level spells (or even just a few spells up to that level), that's still dozens if not hundreds of spells that would make for very interesting fights. And yeah, by optimizing the caster's spell selection you probably could make something very strong, but so could you with a martial.
Look at LoL. Most casters in that game have only 4 spells. Some of them are quite versatile, but what makes them strong is how the spells interact and synergize together. I'd want the casters who'll participate in this arena to do similar things. They'll be limited in what they can do, so they'll have to come up with good strategies and synergies for their spells. At least that's what I hope to achieve.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, the only way you are going to manage this is an agreement between you and the players that no one will be a **** about this. Like, seriously. Hard rules will NEVER cover everything.

[The Insanity]

Even if it was about players, lets say they'd agree to be super nice. How would they know what's being "a ****" and what's not, without any actual rules being set up beforehand? And yes, we could all play nice, but without rules how would I explain, in-character, why casters aren't using their full powers?
But it's not about players. It's about in-character rules for an arena that wants to give casters a chance at participating but is aware that it wouldn't be fair to non-casters, so they set up limitations.

[Vhaidara]

That's the problem. There are so many ways that people can use casters to absolutely break the game that you can't cover all of them. The higher your level, the worse it gets. There are more spells that are problematic than that aren't, especially among spells that people would actually use, especially among those that people would actually use in combat

[The Insanity]

And there are many ways to break the game with non-casters too. But I'm not trying to "break-proof" the game.

Can you maybe give some examples of how a "nerfed" caster could still break the game so absolutely? Lets say the caster is limited to just 5th level spells, and common sense things, like leaving the arena, aren't allowed.

Also, I was thinking about banning Charms and Compulsions, on the basis that dominating your opponent's mind is not combat. I'm not banning the entire Enchantment school because it has some buffs and debuffs (IIRC) that would be useful to a gish or someone like that.

Comming back to the magic item issue. I guess I could give the characters magic items per se, or at least their effects. It's a variant/houserule we were going to implement into our home setting, that allows anyone of high enough power to develop some magical powers. It changes WBL into virtual upgrade points. That way fluff-wise the characters wouldn't use fancy gear (only mundane gear they really need, like weapons and armor) and their magic powers would be explained as them just being that badass, and mechanics-wise they wouldn't be nerfed. Is that okay?

[Zanos]

Maybe you have to enter the contest as a caster of a single school, and can only cast spells from that school or be disqualified?

Doesn't stop casters from still being amazing, but will prevent them from dominating everything, maybe.

[The Insanity]

Even with my very limited knowledge of casters, I know that that won't work in th slightest. Most schools will still let casters dominate, while others would be nearly useless in combat.

[Jack_Simth]

The purpose is to see who's the best at fighting.So... what, the king is putting on a competition to see who goes on the elite forces team or some such? OK.

Well, with that sort of motivation, limitations should be based on how things are expected to be used. So, for instance, if a day's mission is expected to likely take four or five encounters, then the competition should reflect this. For any given spell level, the caster can't use more than 1/5th of their spell slots (minimum 1) in the competition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can you maybe give some examples of how a "nerfed" caster could still break the game so absolutely? Lets say the caster is limited to just 5th level spells, and common sense things, like leaving the arena, aren't allowed.
My opponent is swordsman. I cast fly. Now he can't hit me.
My opponent is an archer. I cast wind wall in a cylinder around myself. Now he can't hit me.
I cast solid fog. My opponent loses four rounds getting out while I fling AoE spells at him.
I cast greater invisibility. My opponent can't see me until the fight is over.

And that's not even touching all the spells that can take you out of the fight with a single failed save-- glitterdust, blindness/deafness, hideous laughter, stinking cloud...

If you want fairness, casters should be limited to direct damage spells and a designated list of personal buffs-- things like mage armor and heroism that improve your numbers without totally changing the game like flight or invisibility.

[The Insanity]

So... what, the king is putting on a competition to see who goes on the elite forces team or some such? OK.
No. A guy/group with too much money and time want to see who is the bast "warrior" in the land.


My opponent is swordsman. I cast fly. Now he can't hit me.
My opponent is an archer. I cast wind wall in a cylinder around myself. Now he can't hit me.
I cast solid fog. My opponent loses four rounds getting out while I fling AoE spells at him.
I cast greater invisibility. My opponent can't see me until the fight is over.

And that's not even touching all the spells that can take you out of the fight with a single failed save-- glitterdust, blindness/deafness, hideous laughter, stinking cloud...
If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.


If you want fairness, casters should be limited to direct damage spells and a designated list of personal buffs-- things like mage armor and heroism that improve your numbers without totally changing the game like flight or invisibility.
That doesn't make for interesting combat.

[Vhaidara]

That doesn't make for interesting combat.

Neither does flying up about 50ft and spamming a SoD spell. Or spamming SoS spells until your opponent is crippled beyond belief.

[The Insanity]

Well, that's a problem that I'd like to solve, preferably without removing too much fun from casters.
Besides, YMMV. It would be interesting to see how the caster's opponent would deal with that conundrum.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe a special format is needed for caster vs. melee fights. Have the caster stand on a platform in the middle of the arena, have the melee enter the arena at any of four doors, hidden. The caster can self-buff all they want (until the melee hits them), the melee can sneak all they want (until the caster kills them), and the audience (if any) gets a view from above.

[The Insanity]

Uhhh... how does that limit casters? If anything, it's beneficial to them. They get to do what they need/want the most, while the martials get to do what most of them won't even be good at. :smallconfused:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Uhhh... how does that limit casters? If anything, it's beneficial to them. They get to do what they need/want the most, while the martials get to do what most of them won't even be good at. :smallconfused:
The caster gets only as many buff rounds as the martial allows them. A charging pouncebarian gives the caster exactly zero buff rounds. A sneaksy rogue or swordsage might give them a round or two, before sticking an armoury between their kidneys. Gish builds, in the melee role, can use the time to get up buffs of their own.

It's a middle ground between no buff round (favouring certain martials) and fixed buff rounds (very quickly favouring casters). In addition, the caster can't move from the platform, so there will be no flying, burrowing, teleporting or other shenanigans.

[Rakaydos]

If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.

Without items, how would you suggest, say, a barbarian to deal with a flying wizard?

[Extra Anchovies]

No. A guy/group with too much money and time want to see who is the bast "warrior" in the land.

The answer is "a spellcaster".


If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.

Hm. I see two options here:
1. You gimp casters enough that it becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors, because they have the spells to always beat certain martial types but will always be beaten by other martial types.
2. You don't gimp casters enough, and they will win almost every fight.

There really isn't a way for casters and noncasters to be on even terms in arena-style combat.

[The Insanity]

Without items, how would you suggest, say, a barbarian to deal with a flying wizard?
Bestial Leaper, Dragon Totem Wings, Hurling, Raging Flier, Spell Sunder, just shooting.
Also, I provided an alternative to the "no items" rule that essentially lets them have magic items.


The answer is "a spellcaster".
That's funny. You're a funny guy.


1. You gimp casters enough that it becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors, because they have the spells to always beat certain martial types but will always be beaten by other martial types.
Just like some martials will always beat other martials because they have a strategy that counters their opponent's strategy. Don't see a problem.


There really isn't a way for casters and noncasters to be on even terms in arena-style combat.
Then at least lets try make it evener then it is right now.

[Prime32]

I could see invisibility being banned in the arena for its cheapness and lack of spectacle. Then again, maybe not. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua7Klz9Rk1k)

Summons might be banned, depending on whether the fights lean more towards "let's find who's strongest or "bread and circuses".

Flying above a certain height should count as a ring-out. To handle burrowing and phasing through the ground, I figure the easiest way to adjudicate things is "it's allowed, but you can't stay underground for more than six consecutive seconds" (surfacing and immediately burrowing again is fine).

Many arenas would also have a rule that all attacks must inflict non-lethal damage - spells that can cause instant death would be banned outright (as would the coup de grace maneuver) except when used on summoned and non-sentient creatures, while stuff like petrification and baleful polymorph would depend on how easy it is for the arena managers to cure those conditions between fights.

I could also see rules against effects that attack the target's mind, on the grounds that they could cause permanent psychological trauma. Charm person probably isn't dangerous enough for that, but it might be banned just for the legal headaches it could cause - if you charm someone, and then they break the rules to defend you from a teammate, which of you is held responsible? And obviously, charming someone into forfeiting the match is a no-go.
Honestly, IMO those spells are more interesting if some of the competitors are using them to cheat rather than as a legitimate tactic.

EDIT: A wizard's spell slot allotment is balanced around facing 3-4 encounters per day. So consider dividing the fight into three rounds, with both combatants fully healed between each round.* A wizard will get weaker each round as he runs out of spells, while a fighter will be at top strength in each fight.

*...not in-game rounds; I mean they have three separate combats.

[ben-zayb]

Limit the availability of spells by banning specific sources, specific spells, or a combination of both. In 3.5 that sorta makes the difference between T1-2 and T3-5 casters.

You could then limit the available spells even further thematically, such that something like a master necromancer has no business casting magic missile.

[Threadnaught]

Evocation/Necromancy only.

Possibly with a couple of Antimagic Fields dotted around as cover. Like bits of cover dotted around as cover from ranged attacks.

Combatants Disjoined on entry, equipment submitted to staff to avoid destruction of property. Acceptable equipment returned to combatants long enough before combat, for those with Heavy Armour to don their armour, with help from staff.
Equipment taken through the Disjunction, regarded as unacceptable and still functional, allowed due to "who's dumb enough to stop that guy" clause.


Disjunction Traps, like metal detectors in airport security btw. You can't bring full Casters down to a similar level to non-casters without existing in an optimized high magic world, unless everyone is honourable and following some sort of gentlemen's agreement.

[ben-zayb]

^ something along that time of merf is to enforce dead magic zones inside the arena. However it will be arfanged or how much of it will cover the arena is up to the DM's estimate of what will bring more balance.

[A_S]

If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.
How exactly are non-spellcasters who aren't allowed to have access to magic items (because you've disallowed them) supposed to get access to flight, See Invisibility, or Freedom of Movement?

[Grod_The_Giant]

If the caster's opponent can't deal with that then he deserves to lose. As long as the caster won't be able to use all that at the same time, it should be okay.
The caster will, though. Those are just a handful of spells-- relatively low-level and common ones at that. There are dozens of defensive and BFC spells in the PHB alone, all of which can seriously mess up a mundane character's day.

And dealing with it? If they don't get magic items, they've got no chance, not unless they've also got a healthy dose of their own magic (binder, warlock, incarnum users, etc). If they do... well, at that point it's not a matter of martial skill, it's "how well did you spend your WBL?" Don't forget how much harder it is for mundane characters to change their schtick. A wizard can prepare for a different challenge every day-- or even in 15 minutes, if he didn't prepare all his slots at the start of the day. Even a sorcerer gets enough options to have level-effective backup. But mundane characters usually depend on long feat chains and expensive magic items (weapons, armor, etc), neither of which are easily changed.

So yeah-- if you want a level playing field, you're going to have to make casters suffer. I suggest:

Direct damage spells are the only ones allowed to directly target an enemy. (Otherwise it's too hard to ensure people's safety)*
No perfect defenses (wind wall, ironguard, etc. There has to be at least, oh, a 20% chance of getting hit, AC aside. (Otherwise it's not sporting)*
The arena is of strictly limited size (less than one range increment/standard charge across), and leaving it is an instant loss. (Otherwise it's hard to watch)
The arena has magically lowered gravity, increasing base land speed and providing some appropriately huge bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. That way mundanes can epic leap their way around/out of BFC (for drama)
Both parties must be evenly matched in terms of "power" (aka level/CR). If the mundane has an animal companion, the caster can summon something before the fight.
The hour immediately before the fight is spent mingling with dignitaries, watching the match before yours, and other such public activities. (Thus, the only buffs you walk in with are the long-term ones like mage armor you're sort of expected to have up all the time). No buff rounds once the fight starts.



*I highly suggest a "choose your weapon" sort of thing for both mundane and magical characters: pick your equipment off the shelf, and prepare your spells from the following list/selection of runestaffs. That way you can hard-limit casters to fair-but-interesting spells without weird blanket rules.

[Susano-wo]

Insanity, you want to have your cake and eat it too. And you can't.

In order to make things 'fair,'(or at least fairish) you are going to have to hardban spells or types of spells, which you don't want to do, because you want to see all the cool spells combos. Which you could have if you make it magic vs magic and martial vs martial. But then you don't have all possible class combo permutations, so you won't do that.

You want a limited fight while also wanting an unlimited fight.

Now, as far as the setup, it doesn't follow with the caster nerf. Guy wants to see who the best warrior is, but wants casters to be restricted to allow martials to have a chance. Which means he is tacitly acknowledging that magic using people are the 'best warriors.' So why not, from his perspective, make it a magic only contest? (and if people who cant counter flight and permanent invisibility deserve to lose, I can't understand what you mean by "fair")

[Susano-wo]

Oh, one thing I thought of, that is still in the spirit of what you are describing: make sure there are multiple fights per day. That way, the wizards, clerics(though he might want to ban divine casters, since it is their divine sources power, not their own that wins the fight.), etc have to conserve slots, at least a bit, and also need to prep for a variety of opponents.

Might at least help some.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, one thing I thought of, that is still in the spirit of what you are describing: make sure there are multiple fights per day. That way, the wizards, clerics(though he might want to ban divine casters, since it is their divine sources power, not their own that wins the fight.), etc have to conserve slots, at least a bit, and also need to prep for a variety of opponents.

Might at least help some.

That's probably going to do it.

1) All of your magic spells are stripped from you before you enter the arena.
2) All of your injuries are healed before you enter the arena.
3) It's a big competition, and we're getting through it in a day. If you're going to be the victor, you've got ten fights ahead of you today.

[Threadnaught]

1) All of your magic spells are stripped from you before you enter the arena.
2) All of your injuries are healed before you enter the arena.
3) It's a big competition, and we're getting through it in a day. If you're going to be the victor, you've got ten fights ahead of you today.

1: I don't get it, are you referring to active Spells, or Spellslots as well?
2: M'kay, s'fair.
3: It mostly depends on what you mean by number 1, but also with 10 fights in a day, if each combatant has to face up to 10 opponents and each loser only loses once before dropping out, you have 1024 people fighting in a single arena in a single day.
Also this is skewed against Casters as they will run out of Spell Slots quickly unless they're either super high level, limit themselves to encounter ending Spells only, or you allow buffs to persist between rounds. Tthe latter of which, would push the balance in favour of Casters again.

Really, the best thing to do, would be to limit what Spells are allowed and have cover to defend against the most dangerous Spells. With rules against hiding under cover forever like a coward, a time limit should do it.

[Gnaeus]

That's probably going to do it.

1) All of your magic spells are stripped from you before you enter the arena.
2) All of your injuries are healed before you enter the arena.
3) It's a big competition, and we're getting through it in a day. If you're going to be the victor, you've got ten fights ahead of you today.

Ahh. We're now in cheesegrinder format.

Under this set of rules, the winner is.... A Witch or Shaman. Slight edge to the shaman for better saves, hp, and AC.

Any opponent who is not immune to sleep/mind affecting will eat a DC 17+1/2 class level slumber on round 1. And again on round 2 with Accursed hex. Most of the spell list will be things like Greater Mirror Image or Quickened (defensive spell of choice). Sleeping enemies will be Coup De Graced with high crit weapons.

For Elves, they will actually need to use a spell.

After Ability Focus: Slumber, Quickened Spell and Accursed Hex, everything else goes to having the maximum possible initiative.

Familiar will be something that can block a charge (or something that can throw an alchemical item like a smokestick). We don't actually care if the familiar dies, since we can replace it for 10k gold or less after tourney ends, and we can't prep spells in the middle of the day anyway.

Since it is 3.PF, also plausible is a high level warlock with a spammable SoL like Noxious Blast. I'll still give the edge to the 9 caster over the invocation user, but its close. No spell combos either way. Just spamming the SoL of choice.

[The Insanity]

How exactly are non-spellcasters who aren't allowed to have access to magic items (because you've disallowed them) supposed to get access to flight, See Invisibility, or Freedom of Movement?
Again, I provided an alternative to the "no item" rule.


The caster will, though.
Not if I "nerf" him.


And dealing with it? If they don't get magic items, they've got no chance, not unless they've also got a healthy dose of their own magic (binder, warlock, incarnum users, etc).
See above. Plus, I forgot about my houserule that allows T3 and below to gestalt. So some of the martials can potentially have spells.
Sorry about that, I'm stupid.


Insanity, you want to have your cake and eat it too. And you can't.
With enough work, I can.


In order to make things 'fair,'(or at least fairish) you are going to have to hardban spells or types of spells, which you don't want to do, because you want to see all the cool spells combos.
I didn't say I won't do it. I'd just like to avoid it.


You want a limited fight while also wanting an unlimited fight.

Now, as far as the setup, it doesn't follow with the caster nerf. Guy wants to see who the best warrior is, but wants casters to be restricted to allow martials to have a chance. Which means he is tacitly acknowledging that magic using people are the 'best warriors.' So why not, from his perspective, make it a magic only contest? (and if people who cant counter flight and permanent invisibility deserve to lose, I can't understand what you mean by "fair")
I guess you have a point. But including casters gives just so many possibilities! It's a shame.

Before I'll give up on the martial vs. caster idea entirely, lets just discuss the option of forcing casters to preserve their spells by having multiple matches per day (or even further, not letting anyone rest for the entire tournament, although that would be a bit too much if the tournament lasts for more than a day, I guess) for a moment. Does it have potential to be the solution?

[Vhaidara]

Not really. If you limit their spell slots, it favors the more powerful, less fun spells (Hold into Scythe CDG) over more interesting spells (blasting combos, for example). And, as usual, as soon as they run out and can't refresh, they can't progress.

This is the wall all caster limiting strats run into: sub-optimal builds are pretty much always hit WAY harder by any nerf you can apply short of banning 90% of the spell list.

[Jack_Simth]

1: I don't get it, are you referring to active Spells, or Spellslots as well?
Active spells. Think "Disjunction (pathfinder version), confirm it took with Arcane Sight"

2: M'kay, s'fair.
3: It mostly depends on what you mean by number 1, but also with 10 fights in a day, if each combatant has to face up to 10 opponents and each loser only loses once before dropping out, you have 1024 people fighting in a single arena in a single day.Which is 512 fights, which is a fight every 2 minutes, 8 rounds if it goes a full 24 hours. At two minutes a fight, it's a touch over a 17 hour day.

Or they could something more like what's done with American Football prior to the playoffs - if there's 11 combatants, everyone fights everyone else exactly once, and the victor is the person with the greatest number of victories (going into playoffs if there's a tie), then there's only 55 fights. A fight every ten minutes and you're through them all in a little over 9 hours. But Mr. Wizard still has to deal with 10 fights in a day.


Also this is skewed against Casters as they will run out of Spell Slots quickly unless they're either super high level, limit themselves to encounter ending Spells only, or you allow buffs to persist between rounds. Tthe latter of which, would push the balance in favour of Casters again.
Yes. You can tweak numbers to your heart's content, though. Five fights? Fifteen fights? Fifty fights? All are doable options. It's a simple set of rules that can apply equally well to all types of combatants (fighters might quaff a potion of Heroism or something, after all), and even Wizards occasionally take injury.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not if I "nerf" him.
But you seem unwilling to accept anything that will actually weaken them. Multiple rounds won't do much, because fights in D&D are so quick that any non-low-level caster will have enough slots to cast a spell a round no problem. If you want caster-verses-noncaster to be fair, you have to do something to take away the caster's game-changing abilities-- flight, save-or-lose spells, action economy abuse, absolute defenses. Casters are just playing a different game than noncasters.

[Honest Tiefling]

Does it really need to be 1v1? What if spell casters got paired with a martial? I mean, think of wrestling and all of the heel-turns and team ups there, so it might entertain the crowd. Perhaps the Martial has to be the one to get the last blow in for the win to count?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does it really need to be 1v1? What if spell casters got paired with a martial? I mean, think of wrestling and all of the heel-turns and team ups there, so it might entertain the crowd. Perhaps the Martial has to be the one to get the last blow in for the win to count?
Now there's an interesting idea. Especially if you had a rule stating that spellcasters couldn't cast spells that directly target or damage their opponents-- that way you have the martials to beat face and the casters to play with all the fun buffs and BFC you might like.

[Extra Anchovies]

Does it really need to be 1v1? What if spell casters got paired with a martial? I mean, think of wrestling and all of the heel-turns and team ups there, so it might entertain the crowd. Perhaps the Martial has to be the one to get the last blow in for the win to count?

Oooh, hadn't thought of that and yet it's probably the best answer.