Straw Poll: Which Ability Scores Govern Artisan's Tools?

[Ninja_Prawn]

So, I'm building random encounter tables for a new campaign and wanted to have an encounter in town where a tradesperson (like a carpenter or cobbler) needs help finishing an urgent order and tries to rope in the PCs, and the amount he pays them depends on the quality of their work (i.e. their Ability(Tool) check).

But then I thought: "does shoe-making rely on dexterity or intelligence? Or something else??" I mean, for some cases (paint an expressionist painting, cut a gem) it's obvious (Cha and Dex, respectively), but others leave me stumped.

So, which stat would y'all pick for making things like shoes and chairs, and why?

[Kane0]

Whichever the character chooses to use, given they provide some sort explanation that half makes sense. In otherwords, the highest applicable.

Shoemaking could feasibly be Dex, Int or Wis for example if you argue for proper hand/eye, learning by the book or learning from experience.
Similarly carpentry could be str, dex, int or wis for force, finesse, wrote learning or learning by example and practice

it also varies on the task being done. A blacksmith making a whole lot of nails and horseshoes could argue for a different stat than one (or even the same fella) making a wrought iron fence.

[hymer]

I agree with Kane0. As a possible alternative, use no ability modifier, but give an extra helping of proficiency bonus.

[Chronos]

It depends on what you're trying to do with the tools. For example, masonry tools:

Put in a day's progress in putting up a stone wall: Strength, because that mostly involves lifting a bunch of heavy weights.
Design a stone wall to be load-bearing and siege-resistant: Intelligence, because that'll involve calculations (or at least memory of specifications from others who have done the calculations).
Determine whether a stone wall is likely to need to be siege-resistant: Wisdom, because it's assessing the motivations and actions of others.
Make a stone wall aesthetically pleasing, and matching with the style of architecture found elsewhere in the neighborhood: Charisma, because you're trying to impress others.
Constructing a stable mortarless arch: Dexterity, because it's all about balance.
Working for two days and nights straight to finish the wall before deadline: Constitution, because it's a test of endurance.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Right, I think I've made up my mind for this case (though I'm still interested to hear people's take on the general issue).

I'm not opposed to letting the players choose, but since I'm currently just planning, I think it would be best to specify something now, then change it on the fly if necessary. I'm trying to be as thorough and general as possible, because that's just how I roll.

I'll put down Dexterity for this one, because the PCs aren't being asked to design a new line of shoes (Int or Cha), and 'having an instinctive feel for how to make a shoe' (Wis) is only really allowable if you've also got the tool proficiency. Dex governs fine motor control, so it will affect the quality of their stitching, which is good enough for me.

[Naanomi]

I default to INT for most rolls, I'm hard pressed to think of a craft skill that INT can't benefit

However certain tools and certain tasks I allow other stats

STR: traditionally 'strongman' crafts can use STR: smithing, masonry... Not that I think a big strong idiot would make a good mason but cinematically it works.

I also allow people to use STR to help break something with precision: use STR + Masory Tools to take down a wall and so on

DEX: fine motor crafts like jewlery, calligraphy, and tinkering can use DEX. Maybe some aspects of vehicle skills as well

One can also use DEX to disassemble an item without damaging the componants

CON: no current use, maybe in some sort of marathon situation (water vehicles?)

WIS: crafts that rely heavily on good senses and intuition of timing; cooking and brewery let's say, as well as navigator's tools can use WIS

Evaluating the quality or function of the crafts of others is also a WIS task

CHA: no craft relies on CHA

However one can use CHA and the tool skill to 'talk shop' effectively with other professionals (in place of Persuasion or maybe Deception)

[Slipperychicken]

For the quality of the shoes, I'd call it an Intelligence(Leatherworker Tools). Hand-crafting requires knowledge and attention to detail, not reflexes or people skills.

[Ninja_Prawn]

CON: no current use, maybe in some sort of marathon situation (water vehicles?)
...
CHA: no craft relies on CHA


Yeah, rowing's got to be CON. Also, I work in the construction industry, and I'm pretty sure that the building trades (bricklaying, blockwalling, drywalling, floorlaying, ceiling fixing, etc. Even some of the services trades like trunking and lagging) require CON more than anything else. Admittedly, modern construction activity has been massively 'deskilled' as compared to medieval construction. Still though, laying bricks all day under the sun is tiring work, especially if you have to climb six flights of stairs every time you need to use the toilet.

I would say CHA is applicable to any craft where you can 'express yourself', since CHA represents confidence and force of personality. Straight off the bat, that includes all the musical instruments. That doesn't mean you couldn't use INT for them, but CHA feels like the more obvious choice. Likewise, you can definitely paint, engrave/carve and make pottery with CHA. I mean, you'd probably end up with something like this (http://www.cherricopottery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Don-Reitz-2.jpg), but there's no accounting for taste.

[cobaltstarfire]

By the book artisan's tools just let you add proficiency to crafting checks, which has worked fine at my table so far.

If you want to use ability score I think it'd be best to decide what stats would be applicable than allow the players to use their best stats from those choices.

For example if the guy wants them to do a bunch of scroll work (curly/spiraly things in blacksmithing, often used for decoration), they can have a choice between Int/Wis/Cha see if they can understand how to do it. (Int is they just happen to know, or they quickly and easily learn, Wis is they can intuitively understand what must be done, Cha is that they have the aesthetic sense to do it).

Then give them a choice between Str or Dex. This would cover physically doing the work, as well as doing it correctly without wasting material, damaging the equipment, or oneself. (Though the DC for something like scroll work would probably be so low as to not even need to be rolled, like a 5 at most, but this was just an example)


I think Chronos has the right idea too, I'd be quite happy with what he suggested if he was my DM anyway.

[PeterM]

For the quality of the shoes, I'd call it an Intelligence(Leatherworker Tools). Hand-crafting requires knowledge and attention to detail, not reflexes or people skills.

Yeah, but someone with highly dextrous fingers can do a better job on the fine cutting and stitchwork required. And if you're just making another pair of boots exactly the same as the thousands of boots you've made in the past, you don't really need a high Intelligence to get the job done.

I think this is just another area where more than one stat could reasonably apply, like most of life. I'd probably allow each character to choose which stat they use, at least if it makes any sense at all. The guy who chooses Intelligence produces perfectly planned and assembled boots, the guy who chooses Dexterity produces boots of exquisite craftsmanship, and the guy who chooses Charisma produces beautiful boots that even the haughtiest noble would be proud to wear. And all of them keep your feet warm and dry.

[MrStabby]

I think that if it is important you can use more than one. For example if a PC were to be trying to create a beautiful illuminated manuscript I would make that (Int/Dex) for success but use (Cha) to determine how expressive or beautiful the result is if quality were to be more than a Binary thing.

For a lot of tools I would lean more towards intelligence for a few reasons. One is simply balance. For most people intelligence is the most underused stat so I have no reservations about giving it as a minor reward to people who didn't dump it.

Secondly a lot of tool use is about learning the appropriate techniques to using the tool. Some of this may be simple (how to swing a sledgehammer without damaging your back) and the (int) part might be minimal - others like forgery would entail knowing all the tell-tale signs that would give it away, knowing how to use different compounds to give different effects and so on. Even something like Masonry might need some simple geometry as well as knowledge of things like plumblines and set-squares.

As someone rubbish as crafting activities myself, I can also see the case for there being an element of wisdom - needed to resist the urge to give up and to smash the half crafted item in a fit of rage as none of the tools you are using seem to do what you are looking for them to do...

[Ninja_Prawn]

As someone rubbish as crafting activities myself, I can also see the case for there being an element of wisdom - needed to resist the urge to give up and to smash the half crafted item in a fit of rage as none of the tools you are using seem to do what you are looking for them to do...

Critical fail?

The balance argument for INT is an important one. It doesn't really make sense to me that adventurers, as a group, would have below-average intelligence, so anything that discourages dumping it is nice.