[PF] Alter Self Question

[EliteChoboHax]

Hello Playgrounders

I have a question i'd love to get some input on regarding Alter Self.

The question is this: Can you use Alter Self to assume a specific form of another person. According to the polymorph rules, you cannot, unless its specified.

And in the Alter Self spell, this line "Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)" seems to indicate, at least to me, that you can ONLY turn into the person of whom you have the piece of.

Example: I have chopped of a piece of flesh from Captain Jack Sparrow and i cast Alter Self with the hand as the material component. According to my reasoning, i'm now, Captain Jack Sparrow as i assumed his form. A fully mimicked version of him in all physical aspects. I dont have the mannerism, his knowledge and quirks and what not ofcourse.

My GM insists that Alter Self i unable to mimic a persons form completely and i believe that you can.

Am i way off base here? Or is the spell easy to interpret in both ways?

[Red Fel]

Am i way off base here? Or is the spell easy to interpret in both ways?

Your GM is correct here. Remember the specific language: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type."

In this case, although you may have a piece of flesh from Captain Jack Sparrow, it will only turn you into a generic Human (assuming that he is, in fact, human; I don't know how any human could survive that much drinking). Read the term "a piece of the creature" as "a piece of a creature of the type".

Note that this is a general rule, and there are specific exceptions. For example, the Kitsune racial feat Realistic Likeness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/realistic-likeness-kitsune) allows you to turn into any specific human you've encountered, even though the Kitsune Change Shape ability keys off of the Alter Self spell, which is subject to the usual Polymorph rules. Again, this is a specific exception; generally, it's a generic, non-templated creature of the type of which you use a piece.

[EliteChoboHax]

The spell doesnt say "creature type" and thus, i cant read it as such either. Its not even a spell im using either, its merely a question of who is right or wrong or if it can be interpreted both ways (As i feel it can). My GM already ruled in his favor, so for our games the point is moot, but i'd like to find out how people percieve it, im sure it's not just me that reads it like that.

[Elricaltovilla]

It cannot be interpreted both ways, your DM is correct. There is no specific exception in Alter Self to allow you to take on the specific likeness of another creature, thus Alter Self can't be used to look like another specific individual no matter how many of their pinky fingers you have.

[EliteChoboHax]

Please state WHY it cant be interpreted both ways, saying it can't isn't very helpful. The possesive form of who is whose and it refers to a person (Which would fullfill the specific part of the polymorph rules).

I'd like a debate with some arguments over being told "You are wrong". Explain to be WHY im wrong please, untill then, i consider the spell open to interpretation

[Elricaltovilla]

Because D&D and by extension, Pathfinder, are games of exception. You have a set of general rules, and then different specific circumstances that grant a player a specific exception from those general rules. The general rule for polymorph spells is:



Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.


Is there a note in Alter Self that says you can use it to change into a specific individual? No? Then you can't use it to assume the form of a specific individual.

[EliteChoboHax]

There is not a note, no. But when the material component clearly states that you use a piece of a person, to assume his form, the note or lack thereof, is null and void from my point of view. And its at the very least enough to make the spell so poorly worded, that either way should be acceptable.

[Elricaltovilla]

There is not a note, no. But when the material component clearly states that you use a piece of a person, to assume his form, the note or lack thereof, is null and void from my point of view. And its at the very least enough to make the spell so poorly worded, that either way should be acceptable.

Fluff is not crunch. If I take the feat eschew materials (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eschew-materials---final) so that my wizard doesn't have to carry around chunks of rotting flesh to cast alter self, then does that mean that when he casts alter self he turns into nothing because he doesn't have anyone's flesh to turn into?

It's not debatable, its Rules As Written, and pretty clear at that. The spell only works as described, exactly as described. What material components you do or do not have is immaterial to the actual function of the spell.

[P.F.]

There is not a note, no.

That's the answer to your question right there.


But when the material component clearly states that you use a piece of a person, to assume his form, the note or lack thereof, is null and void from my point of view. And its at the very least enough to make the spell so poorly worded, that either way should be acceptable.

It's really quite simple. The text reads, "a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume." The rule on assuming a particular creature's form is "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals." The spell has the [polymorph] subschool, so this rule explicitly applies.

At best, this component could limit you to assuming a form with the fine details of the creature whose piece you have used. Thus, if you used one of Jack Sparrow's toenail clippings as the material component of this spell, you could assume the form of a human 5'10" tall, 160 lbs with an athletic build, dark hair, brown eyes, roguish facial hair, and so on. When you walk into a bar, women will walk up to you and say, "Has anyone ever told you you look like Johnny Depp?" But no one who knows what Jack Sparrow looks like will think you are him, just because you look like a generic creature of his type.

However, someone who doesn't know what Jack Sparrow looks like, or has heard only a general description, might be fooled by your bluff check; you might even get a circumstance bonus. If you are actively trying to impersonate Johnny Depp, you would get a +10 to your disguise check if you used alter self to assume his general appearance, and unlike an illusion the disguise could not be partially negated by will saves and/or true seeing etc.

However, you're not entirely wrong, either: the Realistic Likeness feat as mentioned earlier explicitly says you can use your Change Shape ability to mimic any specific human you have encountered. Now the Kitsune change shape ability is a severely limited form of alter self, but the net effect of the feat is to allow you a +10 bonus to disguise checks when imitating a particular person--the same bonus you would get from simply casting the spell with the material component.

So long story short, alter self allows you to assume the generic likeness of an individual, height weight color etc., but in order for anyone to actually mistake you for that individual, instead of just, "hey, you kinda look like Cindy Crawford" or whatever, you will have to use your disguise check. I don't think any spells in Pathfinder will completely bypass that

[jiriku]

Additionally, you can look at the context and history of the spell to judge the authors' intent. Pathfinder's alter self spell is a port of the D&D 3.5 alter self spell.

In 3.5 alter self was widely criticized as overpowered for a 2nd level spell, because it allowed you to dumpster-dive through every monster book in the game to find whatever form offered the ability you most wanted for the situation at hand. It was also criticized for containing a logical inconsistency whereby you could change from a form that had an exotic sense like darkvision into a different form that also had darkvision -- but doing so caused you to lose darkvision. However, the original form of the spell did not allow you to assume the form of a specific creature.

The Pathfinder port of the spell (a) nerfed it hard by reducing the features you could inherit, (b) nerfed it again by adding the material component requirement, which allows the DM to restrict the forms you can turn into by saying "no one's ever seen that creature around here; you can't acquire a piece of it" and (c) fixed the logical inconsistency involving exotic senses.

If your intepretation is correct and the Pathfinder version is intended to copy specific creatures, this would be an important increase in the spell's power. It would be odd, wouldn't it, that such a change wasn't mentioned explicitly in the spell description? And it would be a bit strange to generally nerf the heck out an "overpowered" spell while quietly buffing it via a line in the components entry. Seen in this light, it seems much more believable that you're simply reading a little bit more into the phrase than was really intended. It's common for the optimization community to stumble across curiously phrased passages that don't seem to say quite what they intended. After all, the Pathfinder game is tens of thousands of words across multiple titles written by multiple authors and editors, all of whom are ordinary people who sometimes struggle to express themselves in their writing -- it's not realistic to expect perfectly precise language usage 100% of the time.

[EliteChoboHax]

As i believe i mentioned earlier, and if i didnt, i will now - I do NOT use the spell, none of my characters have it, nor do i intend to use it for that. Disguise Self is level 1 and does EXACTLY that, with 10 times the duration. Sure, its an illusion and warrants a spell save when interacted with, seems fair. But does a level 2 spell with, lets face it, horrible gains for its spell level really become so much more OP with the ability to mimic someones body completely, for a much shorter duration? I dont MIND if it doesnt work as i read it, i do not use it, but it SHOULD be much better worded. Because as it is worded now, the side i opted to take, for arguments sake, is 100% as valid as all the people saying "You are wrong!" without actually providing any solid evidence to the matter, but purely circumstancial evidence. You are not supposed to assume the meaning of a spell based on how it used to be in another system, that is NOT how a spell entry should work. Hell, you shouldnt even NEED to look up specific rules for polymorph spells either. Fact is, the spell can be read, understood and interpreted in two ways and there is really no argument to say you cant, because the wordd is right there in the spell and its poorly worded. Something that could be easily fixed, by changing/adding a word or two.

[Red Fel]

I dont MIND if it doesnt work as i read it,

Good, because it doesn't.


i do not use it, but it SHOULD be much better worded.

That's fair. A lot of these disputes arise due to awkward wording. But we are rules lawyers; if there is no ambiguity in the words, we can find ambiguity. And that's what's happening here - you are finding ambiguity because you really, really want to.


Because as it is worded now, the side i opted to take, for arguments sake, is 100% as valid as all the people saying "You are wrong!"

No, it isn't. For reasons stated above. Saying "I misread the rules" is not the same as saying "My misinterpretation is valid." The former is something that happens to many of us, particularly when rules are confusing; the latter is not a good argument to make.


without actually providing any solid evidence to the matter, but purely circumstancial evidence.

"Circumstantial?" I do not think that means what you think it means. (And lest we forget, circumstantial evidence is still valid evidence.) The evidence given is quite solid. Polymorph subschool spells, unless otherwise stated, cannot turn you into a specific creature. Alter Self does not specifically state that it is an exception to this rule. Therefore, Alter Self cannot turn you into a specific creature.
That's solid evidence, and sound logic. Nothing circumstantial about it.


Hell, you shouldnt even NEED to look up specific rules for polymorph spells either.

Shouldn't need to. But it helps to know them.


Fact is, the spell can be read, understood and interpreted in two ways and there is really no argument to say you cant,

Other than the arguments repeatedly given in this thread.

[P.F.]

Hello Playgrounders

I have a question i'd love to get some input on regarding Alter Self....My GM insists that Alter Self i unable to mimic a persons form completely and i believe that you can.

Am i way off base here? Or is the spell easy to interpret in both ways?

Seems reasonable.



Your GM is correct here. Remember the specific language: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type." ... Read the term "a piece of the creature" as "a piece of a creature of the type".


its merely a question of who is right or wrong or if it can be interpreted both ways (As i feel it can)... im sure it's not just me that reads it like that.

Fair enough, different people have differing interpretations.



It cannot be interpreted both ways, your DM is correct. There is no specific exception in Alter Self to allow you to take on the specific likeness of another creature, thus Alter Self can't be used to look like another specific individua


Please state WHY it cant be interpreted both ways ... Explain to be WHY im wrong please, untill then, i consider the spell open to interpretation

Well, there is that bit which says, "polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals," but perhaps someone will elaborate?



Because D&D and by extension, Pathfinder, are games of exception. You have a set of general rules, and then different specific circumstances that grant a player a specific exception from those general rules ... Is there a note in Alter Self that says you can use it to change into a specific individual? No? Then you can't use it to assume the form of a specific individual.


The text reads, "a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume." The rule on assuming a particular creature's form is "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals." The spell has the [polymorph] subschool, so this rule explicitly applies ... you would get a +10 to your disguise check if you used alter self to assume his general appearance


Additionally, you can look at the context and history of the spell to judge the authors' intent ... it's not realistic to expect perfectly precise language usage 100% of the time.


I dont MIND if it doesnt work as i read it, i do not use it, but it SHOULD be much better worded. Because as it is worded now, the side i opted to take, for arguments sake, is 100% as valid as all the people saying "You are wrong!" without actually providing any solid evidence to the matter,

Gonna stop right there and, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, recall that rule about when and how "polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals."


...but purely circumstancial evidence. You are not supposed to assume the meaning of a spell based on how it used to be in another system, that is NOT how a spell entry should work.

In all fairness, the plain and unambiguous text from Pathfinder had been quoted three times or more at this point, and the poster above was simply trying to provide a coherent alternative to answer your question of "WHY," since quoting the text verbatim didn't seem to be adequate.


Hell, you shouldnt even NEED to look up specific rules for polymorph spells either.

Unless of course you have a rules question about the effects of a spell with the [polymorph] subschool, right? And speaking of rules from other parts of the rulebook, the rules on disguise explicitly state that you get a +10 bonus for using alter self.


Fact is, the spell can be read, understood and interpreted in two ways and there is really no argument to say you cant, because the wordd is right there in the spell and its poorly worded.

Fact is, poorly worded or otherwise, the material component line does not explicitly allow you to "change into" the form of a "specific" person. Your interpretation of the implications of the authors inference regarding the use of the relative personal pronoun "whose," while strongly opinionated, does not change the text of the rules, which state, "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals."