Fear Based Rogue

[Yanisa]

Heya Playgrounders

For fun I was looking at making a rogue build. I always wanted to a redo after my PFS rogue ended up in disaster. The new unchained rogue is as excuse as any to forgot my painful rogue trauma. And well looking around for a fun build I discovered rogues can basically get sneak attack on every attack with a good fear based build.

The best trick I found is Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat) + Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) + Violent Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/violent-display-combat). The biggest weakness to this one is that you need to start off with a real sneak attack, and if you ever loose your fear sneak attack streak mid combat there is no good way of retaining it.

Other tricks include Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) but that one requires Power Attack and Unchained Rogue can dump dex. Or Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat) that comes online far earlier and has no pesky requirements and Blade of Mercy compliments it nice. That biggest weakness is nonlethal damage which means there are more things immune to my rogue.

At high level you can go Dastardly Finish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dastardly-finish-combat) + Merciless Butcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/merciless-butchery-combat) + a level dip I guess to instantly kill enemies. Disheartening Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disheartening-display-combat) or the new Unchained Intimidate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate#TOC-Intimidate-Unchained) can help with fear stacking.

It seems like a decent build, but it's a bit feat heavy on a already feat heavy character and the fact it's all fear based can be it own worst enemy. So I ask to you guys: Are there better ways to do this? Or even better ways to get reliable sneak attack on every attack? And more importantly is there a way to deal with fear immune creatures, or this idea doomed from the start?

[Secret Wizard]

Certified sneak attacks each round: Scout archetype + Circling Mongoose. You either sneak attack while Spring Attacking/charging and getting into position, or you use Circling Mongoose to auto-flank while full attacking. Getting high acrobatics is obviously very useful for this build.

Violent Display build is usually really good because you are "debuffing" all enemies while you do it, so it's a trade off.

[Ssalarn]

Heya Playgrounders

For fun I was looking at making a rogue build. I always wanted to a redo after my PFS rogue ended up in disaster. The new unchained rogue is as excuse as any to forgot my painful rogue trauma. And well looking around for a fun build I discovered rogues can basically get sneak attack on every attack with a good fear based build.

The best trick I found is Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat) + Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) + Violent Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/violent-display-combat). The biggest weakness to this one is that you need to start off with a real sneak attack, and if you ever loose your fear sneak attack streak mid combat there is no good way of retaining it.

Other tricks include Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) but that one requires Power Attack and Unchained Rogue can dump dex. Or Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat) that comes online far earlier and has no pesky requirements and Blade of Mercy compliments it nice. That biggest weakness is nonlethal damage which means there are more things immune to my rogue.

At high level you can go Dastardly Finish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dastardly-finish-combat) + Merciless Butcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/merciless-butchery-combat) + a level dip I guess to instantly kill enemies. Disheartening Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disheartening-display-combat) or the new Unchained Intimidate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate#TOC-Intimidate-Unchained) can help with fear stacking.

It seems like a decent build, but it's a bit feat heavy on a already feat heavy character and the fact it's all fear based can be it own worst enemy. So I ask to you guys: Are there better ways to do this? Or even better ways to get reliable sneak attack on every attack? And more importantly is there a way to deal with fear immune creatures, or this idea doomed from the start?

Remember that Intimidate (as well as all fear effects) is mind-affecting, so there's a lot of things those tactics won't work on. Going for fear/intimidate rogues is rough, because there's going to be the things you can't sneak attack, the things you can't scare, and then the cross-section of the two.

[Yanisa]

Certified sneak attacks each round: Scout archetype + Circling Mongoose. You either sneak attack while Spring Attacking/charging and getting into position, or you use Circling Mongoose to auto-flank while full attacking. Getting high acrobatics is obviously very useful for this build.

Violent Display build is usually really good because you are "debuffing" all enemies while you do it, so it's a trade off.

Hmmm.... Scout allows sneak attacks after 10 feet movement. Mongoose forces you to move... but only in 5 ft increments. It's a shame you cannot walk 10 feet before the first attack. Besides that it's an awesome combo that allows both flanking and flat-footedness to ensure you almost always hit.


Remember that Intimidate (as well as all fear effects) is mind-affecting, so there's a lot of things those tactics won't work on. Going for fear/intimidate rogues is rough, because there's going to be the things you can't sneak attack, the things you can't scare, and then the cross-section of the two.

It sounds logic and it rings true, but I cannot find it back in the relevant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate) rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Fear). Where is all fear is mind-affecting rule hidden?

The list of Sneak Attack Immune and Fear Immune already overlaps heavily. Of the three things immune to Sneak Attack, two are also fear immune. Incorporeal and Oozes. And then there are Elementals. Fear Immune adds Undead to the problem catogory and probably a slew of Outsiders.
But there must be ways around it, a three level dip in Anti-Paladin fixes the problem, but that is a deep dip.

[Secret Wizard]

Hmmm.... Scout allows sneak attacks after 10 feet movement. Mongoose forces you to move... but only in 5 ft increments. It's a shame you cannot walk 10 feet before the first attack. Besides that it's an awesome combo that allows both flanking and flat-footedness to ensure you almost always hit.


You are missing the point, thundertaco. Scout allows you to sneak when moving, Mongoose requires full-round actions to make all your attacks count as FLANKING, thus securing sneak attacks by itself. Each covers a different aspect, movement and full-attacks.


Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.

You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.

Bold part is the important part. It's not about the synergy about Scout + Circling Mongoose, it's about their separate efforts to secure sneak attacks in all situations.

[Psyren]

The key thing to remember is that Shatter Defenses is just one way to trigger sneak attack. You still have the standard methods like flanking with your melee ally or striking from hiding available to you, plus you can go Scout to add a third method (the 10ft. move) if you so desire.


The biggest weakness to this one is that you need to start off with a real sneak attack, and if you ever loose your fear sneak attack streak mid combat there is no good way of retaining it.

Win initiative to start it off, and when you need to regain it, you can always just restealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth[/url) or flank.

Better yet, skip Violent Display and use stamina instead - stam!Dazzling Display lets you stab someone (without needing SA) and then intimidate multiple foes as a free action.



It sounds logic and it rings true, but I cannot find it back in the relevant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate) rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Fear). Where is all fear is mind-affecting rule hidden?

It's in the FAQ. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt)

[Yanisa]

You are missing the point, thundertaco. Scout allows you to sneak when moving, Mongoose requires full-round actions to make all your attacks count as FLANKING, thus securing sneak attacks by itself. Each covers a different aspect, movement and full-attacks.

Is thundertaco some sort of obscure insult?

Also I misread (something about only the first attack, blagh), and without it Cycling Mongoose seems really hard to pull off. As soon as you miss an attack the whole thing fails, you are not making your sneak attack at your highest BaB and flanking only offers a +2 on hit, not a lot to ensure every hit to be a sneak attack. It still works, but it drops in awesomeness. I rather build a Scout -> Horizon Walker -> Dimensional Savant to do almost the same thing.

[Geddy2112]

The rake archtype is a clear winner for this. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake.

At level 1, you are getting intimidate checks on any opponent you can sneak attack, and you can scale the power at higher levels by sacrificing more sneak attack dice. It can be applied in addition to the scout archetype as well.

[Ssalarn]

Hmmm.... Scout allows sneak attacks after 10 feet movement. Mongoose forces you to move... but only in 5 ft increments. It's a shame you cannot walk 10 feet before the first attack. Besides that it's an awesome combo that allows both flanking and flat-footedness to ensure you almost always hit.



It sounds logic and it rings true, but I cannot find it back in the relevant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate) rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Fear). Where is all fear is mind-affecting rule hidden?

The list of Sneak Attack Immune and Fear Immune already overlaps heavily. Of the three things immune to Sneak Attack, two are also fear immune. Incorporeal and Oozes. And then there are Elementals. Fear Immune adds Undead to the problem catogory and probably a slew of Outsiders.
But there must be ways around it, a three level dip in Anti-Paladin fixes the problem, but that is a deep dip.

In Ultimate Magic, they introduced the [emotion] descriptor, and noted that fear is always an emotion effect. In the same book they note that all emotion effects are mind-affecting. There's also this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt).

[Optimator]

Do you have access to 3.5 material? The Avenging Executioner PrC from CS is perfect for this idea.

[Yanisa]

In Ultimate Magic, they introduced the [emotion] descriptor, and noted that fear is always an emotion effect. In the same book they note that all emotion effects are mind-affecting. There's also this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt).

I cannot find any mention that emotion spells are always mind-affecting. In fact in the Ultimate Magic Spell list there are spells that specifically are [Emotion, Mind-Affecting] and spells that just are [Emotion] without any mind affecting added. So not all Emotions spells are mind-affecting? Unless that is also FAQed somewhere.

Also that FAQ is added rather recently too and seems to have no basis in the books. And if it's not in the books, I am not accepting it as straight RAW. I do agree with the RAI of it, so whatever.



So, except 3 levels Anti-Paladin are there any other ways to negate fear immunity? And is 3 levels of anti-paladin worth it?

[Ssalarn]

I cannot find any mention that emotion spells are always mind-affecting. In fact in the Ultimate Magic Spell list there are spells that specifically are [Emotion, Mind-Affecting] and spells that just are [Emotion] without any mind affecting added. So not all Emotions spells are mind-affecting? Unless that is also FAQed somewhere.

Also that FAQ is added rather recently too and seems to have no basis in the books. And if it's not in the books, I am not accepting it as straight RAW. I do agree with the RAI of it, so whatever.



So, except 3 levels Anti-Paladin are there any other ways to negate fear immunity? And is 3 levels of anti-paladin worth it?

There's also 3 levels of Dread if you use Ultimate Psionics material, which depending on your build may come with more useful tools.

On the fear/emotion/mind-affecting thing, I kind of got into it with Mark Seifter, apparently everyone at Paizo thought they'd made it sufficiently clear, but Occult Adventures is supposed to include some very straightforward language tying all the implied or referenced-but-not-actually-present rules regarding emotion effects. But he was very clear that emotion effects are /always/ mind-affecting, and anything not reflecting that is on his errata list.

[Yanisa]

On the fear/emotion/mind-affecting thing, I kind of got into it with Mark Seifter, apparently everyone at Paizo thought they'd made it sufficiently clear, but Occult Adventures is supposed to include some very straightforward language tying all the implied or referenced-but-not-actually-present rules regarding emotion effects. But he was very clear that emotion effects are /always/ mind-affecting, and anything not reflecting that is on his errata list.
Let's just drop the subject because I agree with the unwritten rules and all I can add is Paizo bashing at this point, which I rather not do. Not in this topic anyways.



Also third party/3.5 can be suggested, but if I play this rogue with my real life group chances are those options are out.

[Psyren]

I guess I'm confused as to why Intimidate being mind-affecting is supposed to be a problem. It makes perfect sense. Does anyone really go around strongarming skeletons, browbeating plants or demoralizing oozes? (Without Turning, anyway, which is supernatural and so can break any natural rules/laws.)

Also, any comment on my suggestions above? Combat Stamina and restealthing to restart your sneak attack cycle?

[Ssalarn]

I guess I'm confused as to why Intimidate being mind-affecting is supposed to be a problem. It makes perfect sense. Does anyone really go around strongarming skeletons, browbeating plants or demoralizing oozes? (Without Turning, anyway, which is supernatural and so can break any natural rules/laws.)


How about intelligent undead, or vermin? How about intelligent plants? Me threatening to start a forest fire has no impact on them? It's also ridiculous because Diplomacy isn't a mind-affecting effect. I can convince a vampire to help me because there's a pot of gold and seven virgins in it for him, but I can't use negative reinforcement to achieve the same result, because that is apparently mind-affecting. Thus the ruling further imbalances Diplomacy as a skill by making it better than its analogue whose primary purpose is to do the exact same thing.

It's also inconsistent with the game's own structure. Fear is usually a Necromancy effect, implying that it's a primal instinct of existence, not a manipulation of reasoning or cognitive functions. One of the best things Paizo did was remove the verbage from 3.5 that stated intimidate was a mind-affecting fear effect; why they would choose to FAQ it back in at this late date is beyond me, and more than a bit unnecessary.

[Psyren]

How about intelligent undead, or vermin? How about intelligent plants? Me threatening to start a forest fire has no impact on them? It's also ridiculous because Diplomacy isn't a mind-affecting effect. I can convince a vampire to help me because there's a pot of gold and seven virgins in it for him, but I can't use negative reinforcement to achieve the same result, because that is apparently mind-affecting. Thus the ruling further imbalances Diplomacy as a skill by making it better than its analogue whose primary purpose is to do the exact same thing.

So hang on - if you held a child hostage and threatened to slit its throat if an enemy paladin didn't lay down his weapon, are you saying he'd let you do it simply because he's immune to fear? :smallconfused:

Making threats is not actually what Intimidate does. Intimidate is used to either Demoralize someone, or to force them to act friendly towards you for several minutes. None of your examples qualify. Browbeating someone into grudging/resentful assistance is not covered by the skill.

I generally despise this term, but I'll use it here - expecting to make an intelligent plant like you, however briefly, by threatening to set its forest on fire is rollplay, not roleplay.



It's also inconsistent with the game's own structure. Fear is usually a Necromancy effect, implying that it's a primal instinct of existence, not a manipulation of reasoning or cognitive functions. One of the best things Paizo did was remove the verbage from 3.5 that stated intimidate was a mind-affecting fear effect; why they would choose to FAQ it back in at this late date is beyond me, and more than a bit unnecessary.

Because otherwise you end up with people flexing at oozes and skeletons to scare them, or a demon-worshipping cultist getting a paladin to treat him as a friend. Those are far more dysfunctional from where I stand.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Scarlet Corsair (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) if you can use it, the 5th level ability is downright brutal, though I don't know if Pathfinder has an equivalent ability.

[(Un)Inspired]

Did we ever get an answer as to what a thundertaco was? I really want to start calling people that but I'll skip it if it's racist or something.

[Yanisa]

I guess I'm confused as to why Intimidate being mind-affecting is supposed to be a problem. It makes perfect sense.

It might make sense, but there is zero mention of it in the books, so it isn't a rule. Until the start of the year there was no official source stating it and even now it's only a FAQ entry. And I don't see FAQ entries as straight up RAW anyways. If I was a worse person I could exploit this because indeed nothing in undead type (for example) makes them immune to fear. (And anything with a intelligence score should be able to be afraid. Only the true mindless ones should be immune to fear, but that is a whole other boat.)


Also, any comment on my suggestions above? Combat Stamina and restealthing to restart your sneak attack cycle?

Speaking about cycles, can you use Hellcat Stealth during a Circling Mongoose? Stealth seems to be a part of movement (and not a move action)... :smalltongue:

Also I rather not plan around Combat Stamina too, alternate system and all that, but there are a lot of ways to do the same thing when it comes to intimidate. Shame we cannot deal with fear immunities easily. Aren't any item that give a paladin aura? I don't see any...

[Ssalarn]

So hang on - if you held a child hostage and threatened to slit its throat if an enemy paladin didn't lay down his weapon, are you saying he'd let you do it simply because he's immune to fear? :smallconfused:



I'm saying that since Intimidate is a mind-affecting fear effect, the game rules say
that a character can't leverage negative enforcement to coerce a target with immunity to mind-affecting effects into cooperation, but since Diplomacy isn't a mind-affecting effect, you can persuade them through positive reinforcement, and that's ridiculous.



Making threats is not actually what Intimidate does. Intimidate is used to either Demoralize someone, or to force them to act friendly towards you for several minutes.

Through implied or overt threat. That's why it's called intimidation and not "second diplomacy".



None of your examples qualify. Browbeating someone into grudging/resentful assistance is not covered by the skill.

Actually, that is exactly what the skill is.




I generally despise this term, but I'll use it here - expecting to make an intelligent plant like you, however briefly, by threatening to set its forest on fire is rollplay, not roleplay.

Because otherwise you end up with people flexing at oozes and skeletons to scare them, or a demon-worshipping cultist getting a paladin to treat him as a friend. Those are far more dysfunctional from where I stand.


No, no, no. This is the laziest kind of apologism and false equivalency. "If Paizo doesn't make intimidate a mind-affecting effect, Fighters will flex at skeletons and make them surrender!"
How about instead they use a tiny portion of the space they'll have to make to properly errata that FAQ into existence and add one line to Intimidate and/or the fear descriptor : "Creatures without an intelligence score cannot be intimidated".
Boom. Problem solved. It didn't take rewriting rules and multiple spell entries, it didn't take adding spell keywords to a mundane effect, it didn't create a situation where two skills with the same primary effect are treated completely differently, and it didn't allow for this supposed apocalyptic world where wrestlers rule over undead hordes, but it did allow the skill to continue to function in circumstances where reasoning beings should be susceptible to coercion while blocking off the abuse that
the FAQ was intended to prevent.

We're seriously derailing though, so if you'd like to continue this conversation, we should do so in another thread.

[Psyren]

And I don't see FAQ entries as straight up RAW anyways.

Well... you're welcome to treat them however you like at your table but FAQ is definitely RAW in PF.


Speaking about cycles, can you use Hellcat Stealth during a Circling Mongoose? Stealth seems to be a part of movement (and not a move action)... :smalltongue:

Also I rather not plan around Combat Stamina too, alternate system and all that, but there are a lot of ways to do the same thing when it comes to intimidate. Shame we cannot deal with fear immunities easily. Aren't any item that give a paladin aura? I don't see any...

I suggested combat stamina because you appeared to be using Unchained; worst case scenario you can buy into the system by taking the feat, but rogues can even get in for free.

The UnRogue works fine without it but it adds a lot to the system imo.

@ Ssalarn:


Actually, that is exactly what the skill is.

It's really not, add font effects as much as you like but the Intimidate skill by RAW makes a target treat you as friendly. Barring actual charm/compulsion, no effect should be able to force a paladin to be friends with a demon etc. The skill says nothing about "negative reinforcement."


No, no, no. This is the laziest kind of apologism and false equivalency. "If Paizo doesn't make intimidate a mind-affecting effect, Fighters will flex at skeletons and make them surrender!"
How about instead they use a tiny portion of the space they'll have to make to properly errata that FAQ into existence and add one line to Intimidate and/or the fear descriptor : "Creatures without an intelligence score cannot be intimidated".
Boom. Problem solved. It didn't take rewriting rules and multiple spell entries, it didn't take adding spell keywords to a mundane effect, it didn't create a situation where two skills with the same primary effect are treated completely differently, and it didn't allow for this supposed apocalyptic world where wrestlers rule over undead hordes, but it did allow the skill to continue to function in circumstances where reasoning beings should be susceptible to coercion while blocking off the abuse that
the FAQ was intended to prevent.

And what about paladins, should you be able to browbeat them too? What then would we do with iconic scenes like Redcloak futilely threatening O-Chul?

They simply cannot be intimidated using game mechanics like that, and I see no reason why a lich or tenrdiculos should be any different. Magic effects like turning are one thing, or specific exceptions like a vampire recoiling from garlic, but in general I don't see why it should be effective against such beings, intelligent or not.

[Yanisa]

I suggested combat stamina because you appeared to be using Unchained; worst case scenario you can buy into the system by taking the feat, but rogues can even get in for free.

The UnRogue works fine without it but it adds a lot to the system imo.

Yeah unchained inspired me, but I have not gauged my DM's opinion on it. I am the only one in the group that buys all the books as they come out. In general though the group is as hesitant to alternative system as they are to third party, but we have a word caster now so anything is open. I forgot that you can get stamina through a feat, it might sweeten the deal with the DM. :smalltongue: (In any case, good suggestion, I toss it on the pile.)

I do think I am just going to accept some things are immune to fear, and find back-up plan. Scout, Hellcat Stealth and/or perhaps just some items (I found this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-the-blooded), the fey one) to deal with the mindless. I don't think dipping deep in Anti-paladin is really worth it and there is no way around fear otherwise.