Why exactly are Druids considered a Tier 1 Class?

[Pippin]

According to the general consensus, the Tier 1 classes are: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer and Erudite (Spell to Power).

I can easily understand why Wizards are in. I can roughly understand why Clerics, Archivists, Artificers and Erudites are in too.

But why Druids actually? What can a Druid do that a Wizard can't? Tier 1 classes are supposed to be able to do anything at any time, and since I'm not familiar at all with Druids, I don't get their ranking. It is my understanding that Druids cast divine spells, and that their spell list isn't quite as good as that of Clerics, which itself isn't quite as good as that of Wizards.

Could somebody walk me through it?

[Artillery]

Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0)



The druid is a true powerhouse of a class due to the sheer versatility and power of its three main class features: wild shaping, spells, and animal companions. Able to function as a tank (or 2 tanks with wild shape and animal companion), summoner, battlefield controller, damage-dealer, scout (both with wildshape and with divinations), and healer, the druid is extremely flexible. -Akalsaris

Cons: - Most prestige classes are traps for the druid, as very few advance the things a druid cares about. Nature's Warrior, Master of Many Forms, and Blighter are all far weaker than straight druid. Planar Shephard is the only PrC that possibly surpasses straight druid, while Moonspeaker and Contemplative both give some things and take away some things.

- Very feat-tight. A druid gets 0 bonus feats and must take Natural Spell at 6th (don't argue this one), so every feat it takes must do a hell of a lot for the build, especially on a non-human. A summoner's feats are practically locked into Spell Focus (Conj), Ashbound/Greenbound, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Rapid Spell, and Elemental Summoning, for example.

- Spells are alignment-limited and the druid must have a neutral component to her alignment, which can limit the spell list sometimes, especially for summoning. Neutral (True Neutral) is easily the safest alignment in this regard, completely sidestepping the restrictions.

- Very few worthwhile alternative class features, unlike the wizard or cleric. The Shapeshift Druid is alright, but trades 2 good class features for one mediocre class feature. -Akalsaris

Pros: - The chassis: Druids have medium-high hitpoints, medium BAB, medium skills/level, medium-low armor and weapon proficiencies, and high fort/will saves. All decent, but not particularly strong, though the saves are quite nice.

- Spells: the most powerful tool in a druid's arsenal. First level starts off strong with Entangle, a very long-range battlefield control spell, and only gets better from there on. With a fast spell progression and wisdom based casting, the druid also has dozens of supplements' worth of spells to cherry-pick from, as she can cast any spell on her list with preparation. The ability to spontaneously cast Nature's Ally spells is another strong ability for summoning-focused druids, and can be helpful even to other kinds. Druid spells are typically either utility, battlefield control, or damaging, with a large sprinkling of divinations, healing, and buff spells. The Spell Compendium is notable for nerfing a lot of former druid staples, but introducing a ton of other excellent spells, especially self-buffs.

- Wild Shape: The next most powerful tool a druid has, at its best, wild shape allows a druid to cherry-pick through a dozen sourcebooks for animal forms that are the best answer to any given situation. Even if only limited to the Monster Manual, wild shape gives tremendous flexibility and allows druids of 8th level or higher to completely ignore Str and Dex in character creation, freeing up points for other stats. It also makes the druid's weak armor and weapon proficiencies a non-issue.

- Animal Companion: The linchpin to the druid's power, the animal companion is like having .5 more party members. At low levels it can function as a support tank, and at higher levels it can either be used to provide the party's less awesome members with flight, or it can become a tank in of itself. Dinosaurs especially are good at almost all levels. With 1 or 2 buffs such as a shared Bite of the Wereboar or an Animal Growth spell, the animal companion can easily match the party's fighter in tanking and damage output.

- Other class features: To top it off, the other druid abilities are pretty solid as well. Nature Sense is effectively a +2/+2 skills feat, while Wild Empathy is like a free, albeit limited, Diplomacy score. Venom Immunity is useful for evil druids who want to use poisons, while Timeless Body means that a druid starting at high levels can begin with +3 to all mental stats without the physical drawbacks. -Akalsaris
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More cons for druids: doesn't (easily) get access to time stop and wish. At this tier it's a consideration. If you're playing gamebreaking characters, not having access to a couple of gamebreaking techniques is significant especially when a lowly sorcerer CAN get those tricks. -Rebel7284

[bekeleven]

Yep. The highest cons for a druid are "Most prestige classes are downgrades" and "Most ACFs are downgrades." This is a feature, not a bug.

[eggynack]

Druids are better than wizards for about the first half of the game, on the basis of non-spell attributes combined with the not quite as good spell aspect. The animal companion makes druids possibly the best class in the game for the first few levels, and then when it starts waning, wild shape comes online and spells get better, and it all carries you until ten or so, when druid spells stop being quite as good in comparison. You're still better than just about anything that's not a top tier caster, and you obviously pick back up when you get 9th's, but there's a lag there, albeit one that can be made up for by pushing things really hard.

But, the more basic answer is that druids can, in fact, do just about anything at just about any time. The list is equal to or better than the cleric list, and while the cleric list with domains included might edge ahead of the druid list, the druid list with everything else piled on goes a long way towards narrowing that gap. Over the time I've spent studying druids, and there's been a lot of it, I've found that, for every time I've thought there was some particular thing that druids can't do, whether it be teleportation, or planar travel, or action economy breaking, there's a way for druids to do that thing, and do it very well. The answers to those questions aren't as easy to find as they are for the wizard, whose answer to the question of teleportation is to just point to the spell that's right there in core, but they're there if you know where to look.

So, I ask you, what is it a druid cannot do? Certainly there are some things out there if you put in enough stipulations, but then again, there are things that even wizards cannot do if you stipulate sufficiently. I would suspect that, just as was the case for me, for everything you think is impossible for druids, there is an answer hidden amongst the depths of D&D, and it is likely you can even accomplish everything you desire on one build. After all, few druid tricks require a massive amount of investment, and most work towards a wide variety of ends.

Edit: Incidentally, that "Why each class is in its tier" thing is a bit outdated, and much of it is just plain off. There's been a lot of advancement in the field of druidry since then.

Double-edit: To be slightly more specific, the issues seem to be largely located in the cons section. There are problems of varying degree to all claims made thereabouts.

[Pippin]

So, I ask you, what is it a druid cannot do? Certainly there are some things out there if you put in enough stipulations, but then again, there are things that even wizards cannot do if you stipulate sufficiently. I would suspect that, just as was the case for me, for everything you think is impossible for druids, there is an answer hidden amongst the depths of D&D, and it is likely you can even accomplish everything you desire on one build. After all, few druid tricks require a massive amount of investment, and most work towards a wide variety of ends.
I must say that I don't see many posts about Druids either, around here.

But mainly, how would Druids do to get a permanent or persistable +60 (arbitrary) bonus to Con/Int/Wis/Cha? How do they defeat SR? Can they DCFS their feats away if they choose to take a Vow of Poverty?

[eggynack]

But mainly, how would Druids do to get a permanent or persistable +60 (arbitrary) bonus to Con/Int/Wis/Cha? How do they defeat SR? Can they DCFS their feats away if they choose to take a Vow of Poverty?
Apart from the middle thing, those seem a lot more like means than tasks to accomplish. And, for that middle task, druids have a wide variety of SR: no spells, along with a massive pile of beatstickery in a number of possible flavors. Beyond that, for the other things, it's worth note that druids can gain access to shapechange before 17 by using fey ring to call a siabrie. Admittedly, it's shapechange too low in level to access zodar wishes, but there's lots of other stuff you can do with it, and that in and of itself covers a lot of the high level high optimization ground. Of course, shapechange itself at 17 also covers a lot of the remaining ground. You get DCFS through it a bit late, but casters naturally go through a lot of their progression without it if they're not just getting a friendly wizard to cast it on them.

[bekeleven]

How do they defeat SR?
The answer to this is somewhere between swamp lung and bear claws.

[Janthkin]

Can they DCFS their feats away if they choose to take a Vow of Poverty?If you want to play a Tier 1 class, why would you take Vow of Poverty?

Druids can be a dinosaur, with a pet dinosaur, who summons more dinosaurs, and then enhances the whole lot of dinosaurs by making them bigger, with sharper teeth, and/or setting them on fire, all while enjoying the benefits of a full-progression caster with a spell list slightly different from the Cleric list.

[eggynack]

If you want to play a Tier 1 class, why would you take Vow of Poverty?

Presumably in order to DCFS those feats away, including the actual vow, such that you have a pile of feats at no cost. However, it is notable that druids work best with VoP of any class in the game for a number of reasons. Of course, this only means that VoP is a decently sized downgrade rather than crippling, instead of being a power boost, but that's a pretty big deal when it comes to something as bad as VoP.

[Pippin]

Presumably in order to DCFS those feats away, including the actual vow, such that you have a pile of feats at no cost. However, it is notable that druids work best with VoP of any class in the game for a number of reasons. Of course, this only means that VoP is a decently sized downgrade rather than crippling, instead of being a power boost, but that's a pretty big deal when it comes to something as bad as VoP.
I'm not sure I got this last post. (And I didn't know you could later chaos shuffle Sacred Vow away and retain all benefits of Vow of Poverty.) VoP is the only thing I know that grants continuous True Seeing. That instantly makes this feat very good. The bonus exalted feats are the icing on the cake :smallcool:

[eggynack]

I'm not sure I got this last post. (And I didn't know you could later chaos shuffle Sacred Vow away and retain all benefits of Vow of Poverty.) VoP is the only thing I know that grants continuous True Seeing. That instantly makes this feat very good. The bonus exalted feats are the icing on the cake :smallcool:
Druids can continuous true seeing with our without vow of poverty. The two best methods I know of are dragon wild shape for deep dragon form, or better yet, aberration wild shape for phaerimm elder or revered elder form, combined with enhance wild shape (better because the feat is better, rather than because the form is necessarily a better option). Both options are available before true seeing is granted by vow of poverty. Druids are sweet, is the point.

Edit: And, no, you don't retain all benefits of vow of poverty. You just retain the feats, because the feats are the most valuable thing granted.

[Aegis013]

I'm not sure I got this last post. (And I didn't know you could later chaos shuffle Sacred Vow away and retain all benefits of Vow of Poverty.) VoP is the only thing I know that grants continuous True Seeing. That instantly makes this feat very good. The bonus exalted feats are the icing on the cake :smallcool:

That's not it, exactly. You DCFS away all of the Exalted feats first, then Vow of Poverty (or you can skip this, but it stops working on the next part), then Sacred Vow. You lose all of the normal benefits of Vow of Poverty, but the feats gained from DCFSing Exalted feats isn't a benefit of Vow of Poverty, so those you keep.

Edit: Swordsaged (would fleshrakered by an appropriate substitute in this context?)

[Pippin]

Druids can continuous true seeing with our without vow of poverty. The two best methods I know of are dragon wild shape for deep dragon form, or better yet, aberration wild shape for phaerimm elder or revered elder form, combined with enhance wild shape (better because the feat is better, rather than because the form is necessarily a better option). Both options are available before true seeing is granted by vow of poverty. Druids are sweet, is the point.

Edit: And, no, you don't retain all benefits of vow of poverty. You just retain the feats, because the feats are the most valuable thing granted.
Oh, okay. My point was that you have True Seeing no matter what you wildshape into, though.

I don't regret starting this thread, I'm learning cool things.

[eggynack]

Oh, okay. My point was that you have True Seeing no matter what you wildshape into, though.
True, I suppose, though I don't know that you necessarily need to have true seeing up so permanently that you need it to carry across forms. I guess there's always spelldancer or weird DMM based persist shenanigans if you want to pull it that way, though I'm not the biggest fan of either option.


I don't regret starting this thread, I'm learning cool things.
Never a bad time to learn cool druid stuff, I'd think.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I must say that I don't see many posts about Druids either, around here.

But mainly, how would Druids do to get a permanent or persistable +60 (arbitrary) bonus to Con/Int/Wis/Cha? How do they defeat SR? Can they DCFS their feats away if they choose to take a Vow of Poverty?

You can take a level of Contemplative to get the Luck domain and with it, Miracle. That takes care of DCFS.
As others have mentioned there are more than enough spells with SR:no. Worst case, you can simply (spontaneously) summon something, or wildshape and take care of it yourself.

For the permanent bonus you could emulate Extract Gift, which gets you about +20 or so depending on the ability in question and the amount of cheese you're willing to use. I don't think anyone really uses that without Dweomerkeeper though because it gets expensive fast at the higher boni.
Notably though Druids are unique in that they get a big non-enhancement buff for their casting stat with Owl's Insight, making their DCs potentially higher than anyone elses.

[bekeleven]

Is it gauche to suggest a Hathran Mask of True Seeing with a wilding clasp?

[Bad Wolf]

They can turn into a bear while summoning more bears.

[Hiro Quester]

When a wizard runs out of spells for the day, he's a squishy human with hardly any hit points

When a druid runs out of spells, he's still able to wildshape into a bear, and he and his bear friend can eat the enemy's face right off.

[Flickerdart]

When a wizard runs out of spells for the day, he's a squishy human with hardly any hit points
A squishy human with a pet rat, thank you very much.

[AmberVael]

According to the general consensus, the Tier 1 classes are: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer and Erudite (Spell to Power).

I can easily understand why Wizards are in. I can roughly understand why Clerics, Archivists, Artificers and Erudites are in too.

But why Druids actually? What can a Druid do that a Wizard can't? Tier 1 classes are supposed to be able to do anything at any time, and since I'm not familiar at all with Druids, I don't get their ranking. It is my understanding that Druids cast divine spells, and that their spell list isn't quite as good as that of Clerics, which itself isn't quite as good as that of Wizards.

Could somebody walk me through it?

One thing to keep in mind is that "Not as good wizards" does not equal "not tier 1." There are differences in power in the same tier, and even if it was downright proven that Druid was worse than Cleric and Wizard, it'd still be tier 1.

But consider that wildshape opens up a ton of easier, long term options for the druid. It can let them fly, or become a combat monster (literally), or burrow or swim or be an innocuous animal. With natural spell they can do this while being a spellcaster. If you can turn into a magic slinging dinosaur, you obviously have things going for you.

While the druid spell list is a little odd, it has some really great gems, and cover a lot of ground.
1) Solid battlefield control: Things like Entangle, Kelpstrand, Arctic Haze, Haboob, and a good collection of wall spells.
2) Buffing: While maybe more focused on the personal or animal companion side, are pretty solid or even outright madness. Venomfire, anymore? Plus they do have plenty of things that can help the whole party (Bear's Endurance / Bull's Strength, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Protection from energy... good stuff).
3) Healing: Not exactly something most people jump up and down about, but Druid can throw out stuff like vigor and Panacea, Last Breath and Rejuvenating cocoon, plus Heal. If you've got health problems, Druid can probably deal with it.
4) Travel: While not exactly wizards, Druids do have some options to make travel and movement easier. The simplest answer is turning into a big, speedy monster and carrying the whole party, possibly using things like Wind At Back to speed people up. They also get access to the amazing Master Earth spell, a non-teleport teleport spell. Possibly one of my favorite spells in existence.
5) Divination: Scrying, Share Husk, Omen of Peril, True Seeing- they're not exactly divination masters, but they can figure some stuff out and have some good ones.
6) World altering effects: Once you get to high levels as a druid, reality is your toy. Undermaster and Planar Perinarch can make that pretty literal. Whether summoning giant monsters, conjuring tornados or massive tidal waves, a druid can do anything from build a castle to leveling one with only a handful of spells.

This doesn't cover everything, but hopefully it gives a good idea of why 'accomplish anything' is a pretty reasonable description for druids.

[Pluto!]

Until they get Shapechange, Druids comparatively lack in the blank-check spell effects like open-ended minion creation (specifically planar binding and undead; things that let wizards cherry pick among all the abilities in the game), illusions, teleports (until very high level), mind reading/mind control or spell countermeasures.

I think people on these boards overstate their ability to steamroll encounters by pretending to be Fighters, and understate their limited scopes of spell options. Of the Wiz/Cleric/Druid trifecta, Druid's definitely flirting closest to the line to T2.

That said, they can still steamroll most encounters with little or no preparation, but that can be said for most T2s/well-built T3s as well.

[Chronos]

One other benefit that druids get is that they bypass one of the primary limitations of most T1 casters. If a cleric or wizard accidentally prepares the wrong spells for the day (which can happen occasionally, especially in low to mid-op games), they're stuck with some slots that they can use only to diminished effect, if at all. If a druid does that, though, those are just the first slots they convert into Summon Nature's Ally, which may not usually be the absolute best spell imaginable for a given situation, but it's never useless. Yeah, the cleric can at least turn those mis-prepared slots into cures, but cures are a lot less useful than summons.

[eggynack]

Until they get Shapechange, Druids comparatively lack in the blank-check spell effects like open-ended minion creation (specifically planar binding and undead; things that let wizards cherry pick among all the abilities in the game), illusions, teleports (until very high level), mind reading/mind control or spell countermeasures.
Druids can do everything on that list except maybe for illusions and perhaps mind control, and even that can be pulled off if you do some contemplative dipping. Minions can be gained through a number of methods, ranging from fey ring to animate with the spirit to plant based zombification and a bunch of others besides. I also found what looks to be a new method of druid minionmancy recently with the deepspawn from lost empires of faerun's spawn ability. That one's really weird.

For teleports, druids can do that stuff just fine at reasonable level unless you're arbitrarily deciding that two levels higher than a wizard is very high level. Seems like a pretty odd line to put down. Druids also get a lot of spell countermeasures, mostly through weird wild shape stuff. Immunity to magic and complete immunity to illusions are pretty good, after all. Mind reading is accessible the same way, oddly enough, with a couple of solid forms having access, along with animate with the spirit getting some telepathy.

That pretty much leaves illusions and mind control, and given that wizards drop enchantment really often, I'm inclined to call that just illusions. It's a loss, but it's not a massive one, and again, if it's such a massive concern, there are ways to pick it up. Of course, if you want to go really deep on the illusions and mind control thing, you can always use summon fey from kingdoms of kalamar to call forth a pixie or nixie at first level, gaining access to permanent image, dispel magic, and seemingly irresistible dance, as well as that rare situation where those magic arrows are relevant, in the first case, and charm person in the second case. So, illusions and mind control are very much available, actually. Also, you can get a weaker project image from the champions of valor spell benign projection, so that's kinda sweet.


I think people on these boards overstate their ability to steamroll encounters by pretending to be Fighters, and understate their limited scopes of spell options. Of the Wiz/Cleric/Druid trifecta, Druid's definitely flirting closest to the line to T2.
I agree that the pretend fighter thing is rather overstated, especially when looking at higher level play. I mean, it's right there in the name that you're pretending to be a fighter. However, druids as a whole are anything but limited in scope. As I noted in my first post, while you're not quite up to par beyond level 11 or so, druids up through level 10 are likely superior to wizards and clerics. Your list is quite comparable to theirs across that level range, and all those class features and more practical abilities grant a good advantage. After all, you don't exactly steamroll encounters at early levels by being a fighter, but having a free one around helps a hell of a lot, and backing that up with spells equals crazy power.



That said, they can still steamroll most encounters with little or no preparation, but that can be said for most T2s/well-built T3s as well.
The difference is that druids, like the other tier one classes, can in fact do just about anything. Notably, while many of my solutions relied on feats and prestige classes, those feats and prestige classes remained constant across all of the problems, meaning that building to solve those problems doesn't entrap you when dealing with other problems. Druids look at the capacity of tier threes to defeat encounters without preparation, and the capacity of tier twos to succeed at a wide variety of tasks, and they laugh.

[SinsI]

Don't forget one extremely powerful feature of Druid: independence from Wealth!
Throw a naked "Tier 1" Wizard 20 on an uninhabited island - and he'll probably die to the first CR 5 monster.

Druid? He'll eat CR 20 for lunch (if not turn them into Animal Companions)

[chaos_redefined]

Essentially, druids are the least powerful of T1... but also the most forgiving. If you screw up a druid, you still have plenty of good options thanks to spontaneous access to SNA and wildshape. Additionally, thanks to their animal companion, they are awesome right off the bat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don't forget one extremely powerful feature of Druid: independence from Wealth!
Throw a naked "Tier 1" Wizard 20 on an uninhabited island - and he'll probably die to the first CR 5 monster.

Druid? He'll eat CR 20 for lunch (if not turn them into Animal Companions)

Nnnnooo... other Tier 1s are largely independent of wealth too. It's just that for a level 5 wizard that +2 crossbow helps him actually kill things.

[eggynack]

Essentially, druids are the least powerful of T1... but also the most forgiving. If you screw up a druid, you still have plenty of good options thanks to spontaneous access to SNA and wildshape. Additionally, thanks to their animal companion, they are awesome right off the bat.
Again, as you imply in your last sentence, it depends a lot on level. For example, druids are absolutely not, in a million years, the least powerful tier one class at level one. The wizard's great leap in the field of spellcasting over druids is, I dunno, silent image over entangle, and those few slightly better spell uses a day are being leveraged against all that crazy druid stuff. It's just not a good comparison for wizards. That comparison gets better for wizards as you level, but even when you hit six or so, you're still comparing the wizard's stinking cloud and haste to the druid's sleet storm and stone shape, and setting that all up next to a fleshraker companion and demodu bat form likely gives the druid a serious edge. And then, even stretching towards level nine, the wizard is using, say, wall of stone, teleport, and polymorph against the druid's control winds and blizzard, except now the druid can use aberration wild shape to get two spells a turn and do all kindsa other crazy crap.

In a few of levels, perhaps at 6th level spells, things start to swing the other way when the wizard is pulling off all kindsa crazy crap while the druid is largely upgrading his old spells in marginal ways, but then again, it's possible that the advantage doesn't even swing until 7th level spells, given the existence of stuff like fey ring and spontaneously summoning oreads for earthquakes. My point is, you're saying that druids are, "Awesome right off the bat," but that being awesome right off the bat extends into pretty high levels, such that claiming druids as least powerful among the tier ones just doesn't make much sense.

Nnnnooo... other Tier 1s are largely independent of wealth too. It's just that for a level 5 wizard that +2 crossbow helps him actually kill things.
Depends on how independent from wealth you're talking about. If we're talking about a game assuming enough wealth to get and maintain a decent spell book, then sure, wizards are on the same level of independence. Hell, they might actually be more independent, given the existence of druid specific items (such as the trappings of the beast). However, if wealth gets close to zero, limiting the wizard to starting spells or even less than that, or maybe a bit more, then the druid is in a better place.

[SinsI]

Nnnnooo... other Tier 1s are largely independent of wealth too. It's just that for a level 5 wizard that +2 crossbow helps him actually kill things.
Largely independent?

Pure Archivist and Wizard without their wealth, once they use up their memorized spells are commoners with bonus feats, unless specifically built to be spellbook-loss proof.

[Hiro Protagonest]

once they use up their memorized spells

That's a pretty major caveat.

Though yeah I forgot about the spellbook. Eidetic Spellcaster or something then, and Cleric's still not affected.

[SinsI]

That's a pretty major caveat.

Though yeah I forgot about the spellbook. Eidetic Spellcaster or something then, and Cleric's still not affected.

Eidetic Spellcaster is Dragon, so it belongs to the same realm as Knowstones (which instantly upgrades Sorcerers to Tier 1)

What I was thinking about is the situation from anime Zetsuen no Tempest: most powerful wizardess on Earth after being defeated is thrown naked on an uninhabited island and can't do anything since she needs items made in civilization as material components for all her spells, essentially becoming just another ordinary girl.

I really can't imagine what needs to be done to deprave Druid of his abilities to be a formidable opponent.

[ryu]

Largely independent?

Pure Archivist and Wizard without their wealth, once they use up their memorized spells are commoners with bonus feats, unless specifically built to be spellbook-loss proof.

If you still have memorized spells why are you not just getting your spellbook back, leaving the island, and putting whatever was stupid enough to put you in that situation without being sure to kill you in a hurt locker the next day? Also it may be necessary to shift the order of the first two depending on exactly what spells you have memorized, but I rather doubt either way is actually difficult.

[Chronos]

The biggest thing with druids is that they have no weakness. There are certainly situations (what enemies you're facing, what level you are, how much system mastery you have) where the wizard is superior to the druid, but there are also situations where the wizard actually sucks. A first-level wizard sucks (which is a feature, not a bug-- first-level characters are supposed to suck). A wizard played with very low optimization sucks. A wizard who, through perversity of luck or bad choices, prepared exactly the wrong spells, sucks. But druids are strong right from the starting gate, their options which just "look cool" are all still quite powerful, and they can always use their spell slots for something useful.

Oh, and if you're looking for something the druid does better than the wizard, try healing. Yeah, they're not as good at it as the cleric (most of the important spells are higher level for the druid), but wizards are terrible at healing. They can do a bit of it, of course, but only at relatively high optimization levels, and they're only actually good at it once you get to TO levels of optimization, where every spellcaster is good at everything.

[SinsI]

If you still have memorized spells why are you not just getting your spellbook back, leaving the island, and putting whatever was stupid enough to put you in that situation without being sure to kill you in a hurt locker the next day? Also it may be necessary to shift the order of the first two depending on exactly what spells you have memorized, but I rather doubt either way is actually difficult.
Probably the one that removed your spellbook and your gear and left you stranded also did something to remove your prepared spells - "Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind"

[ryu]

Probably the one that removed your spellbook and your gear and left you stranded also did something to remove your prepared spells - "Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind"

And just how do you postulate he even knows about the permanent duration shrunken, fine sized book that was injected directly into the bloodstream?

[eggynack]

Oh, and if you're looking for something the druid does better than the wizard, try healing. Yeah, they're not as good at it as the cleric (most of the important spells are higher level for the druid), but wizards are terrible at healing. They can do a bit of it, of course, but only at relatively high optimization levels, and they're only actually good at it once you get to TO levels of optimization, where every spellcaster is good at everything.
I would also pick out hitting people in the face at a low resource cost. For all the talk of wizards just flat out blanking fighters, they're just not all that good at turning time into damage, and by extension, into a kill condition. and while there are always ways to do at least decently on that front, wizards require a battlefield that is far more locked down to assure a victory. A druid, mainly through the companion and summons, can kill you fair and square without doing much casting at all, which makes them all the more devastating when they do cast spells. As I've previously noted, it's not necessarily wise to turn all your resources down this road, but there's a massive difference between turning yourself into a tier three class, and just incidentally having all of the power of a tier three class while keeping yourself open to other things. These are relevant roles, and the druid fills them far better.

Also of note, I think druids may be better at doling out mass destruction. With spells like control winds, blizzard, and oread based earthquakes, the druid is a class uniquely capable of just taking out cities and towns. Granted, wizards can deal with such problems in more devious ways, and there are some high end ways to explode something, but it's something that druids are excellent at natively, and that's worth something. Sometimes you just need to pile an entire settlement up with snow until everything dies.

[Extra Anchovies]

And just how do you postulate he even knows about the permanent duration shrunken, fine sized book that was injected directly into the bloodstream?

You're arguing an inconsequential detail. The point is that a stock Druid with 0 gp worth of possessions is better off than a stock Wizard with 0 gp worth of possessions.

[ben-zayb]

And just how do you postulate he even knows about the permanent duration shrunken, fine sized book that was injected directly into the bloodstream?Except that's not how small a fine-sized spellbook is. I mean I get that having a good sense of scale can be difficult at extremely high/low ends, but dang.

[Story]

I really can't imagine what needs to be done to deprave Druid of his abilities to be a formidable opponent.

Just stick some metal on them.


You're arguing an inconsequential detail. The point is that a stock Druid with 0 gp worth of possessions is better off than a stock Wizard with 0 gp worth of possessions.

That's a rather niche case though, especially considering that Wizards literally start the game with an expensive possession. It's not going to happen unless the DM is out to get you, and in that case there are ways to shut Druids down too.

You might as well argue that stock Wizards in a cursed mithril chain shirt does better than a stock Druid in a cursed mithril chain shirt.

[ryu]

Except that's not how small a fine-sized spellbook is. I mean I get that having a good sense of scale can be difficult at extremely high/low ends, but dang.

I forget, is there even a size category listed smaller than fine? Pretty sure fine just covered up to a certain maximum size plus everything smaller than that.

[eggynack]

That's a rather niche case though, especially considering that Wizards literally start the game with an expensive possession. It's not going to happen unless the DM is out to get you, and in that case there are ways to shut Druids down too.

You might as well argue that stock Wizards in a cursed mithril chain shirt does better than a stock Druid in a cursed mithril chain shirt.
I agree that it's a bit of a corner case, but first, I think the druid case you've presented is significantly more corner, as forcibly armoring someone generally requires they be in a position such that you can kill them, and second, without easy bake wizard tactics, a wizard without any ability to add spells outside of those granted by natural leveling is at a severe disadvantage.

[ryu]

I agree that it's a bit of a corner case, but first, I think the druid case you've presented is significantly more corner, as forcibly armoring someone generally requires they be in a position such that you can kill them, and second, without easy bake wizard tactics, a wizard without any ability to add spells outside of those granted by natural leveling is at a severe disadvantage.

Depends. Are utility spells from summons still a thing on both sides? If so I'm pretty sure both parties can access most of the spells in existence pretty trivially at high level. This becomes significantly easier still if we focus purely on gaining access to the staples.

[eggynack]

Depends. Are utility spells from summons still a thing on both sides? If so I'm pretty sure both parties can access most of the spells in existence pretty trivially at high level. This becomes significantly easier still if we focus purely on gaining access to the staples.
Does summoning really offer that broad a setup? I'm pretty sure it doesn't in the case of druids, and I think you're even kinda limited as a wizard. Yeah, you can get utility of various kinds on both sides, but it's not massive. If you expand summoning to include stuff like planar binding and fey ring though, then yeah, that gets you most things out there. Still, that does only cover higher levels, and the edge from wealthlessness persists some at low levels.

[ryu]

Does summoning really offer that broad a setup? I'm pretty sure it doesn't in the case of druids, and I think you're even kinda limited as a wizard. Yeah, you can get utility of various kinds on both sides, but it's not massive. If you expand summoning to include stuff like planar binding and fey ring though, then yeah, that gets you most things out there. Still, that does only cover higher levels, and the edge from wealthlessness persists some at low levels.

At which point we get into using builds to still be pretty significantly terrifying even from level one. Without the ability to add large numbers of spells we have less reason to care about generalist status. Focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt ACF and early entry fiery burst should still be pretty competitive at level one with further leverage from other ACFs that aren't downgrades until the high level point.

I'm pretty sure the wizard can meaningfully compete in the basically wealthless setting on sheer point of having ACFs he actually wants to take like spontaneous divination.

[eggynack]

At which point we get into using builds to still be pretty significantly terrifying even from level one. Without the ability to add large numbers of spells we have less reason to care about generalist status. Focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt ACF and early entry fiery burst should still be pretty competitive at level one with further leverage from other ACFs that aren't downgrades until the high level point.

I'm pretty sure the wizard can meaningfully compete in the basically wealthless setting on sheer point of having ACFs he actually wants to take like spontaneous divination.
I have no doubt that low level wealthless wizards can be highly competitive. I just think that druids likely have an even greater edge than usual in that setting.

[ryu]

I have no doubt that low level wealthless wizards can be highly competitive. I just think that druids likely have an even greater edge than usual in that setting.

I see as more likely that the real effect of this change would be that druid competes deeper into the mid levels perhaps topping off at around fifteen or so instead of ten like before. That and the greater focus on early game builds due to lack of wealth actually push the two classes closer to equal at low levels. This also begs the question of whether we count going eidetic and selling the book for a small burst of wealth at level one counts as breaking the rules of the imposition or is just leveraging class features.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I see as more likely that the real effect of this change would be that druid competes deeper into the mid levels perhaps topping off at around fifteen or so instead of ten like before. That and the greater focus on early game builds due to lack of wealth actually push the two classes closer to equal at low levels. This also begs the question of whether we count going eidetic and selling the book for a small burst of wealth at level one counts as breaking the rules of the imposition or is just leveraging class features.

I'd think that the point of a no-wealth game would be that you don't get any wealth.:smalltongue:
Though i'd say the wizard still gets a normal spellbook if he doesn't take eidetic, because ruling otherwise is just as biased as telling the druid that he starts off in a chain shirt or something like that.

I'd say they're pretty close at low levels, but in different ways. The Focused Specialist has double the spells of the druid, which should be more than enough to get through a day, with the druid making up the difference with his animal companion and better base chassis.
The druid is probably a better solo class in that case because the wizard lacks the damage and damage-soaking options that make the druid so awesome at that point, but it shouldn't make too much of a difference in a normal group situation.

(And you can either go eidetic or take Abrupt Jaunt, not both, so taking Eidetic Spellcaster costs you a pretty significant bit of defense.)

[ryu]

I'd think that the point of a no-wealth game would be that you don't get any wealth.:smalltongue:
Though i'd say the wizard still gets a normal spellbook if he doesn't take eidetic, because ruling otherwise is just as biased as telling the druid that he starts off in a chain shirt or something like that.

I'd say they're pretty close at low levels, but in different ways. The Focused Specialist has double the spells of the druid, which should be more than enough to get through a day, with the druid making up the difference with his animal companion and better base chassis.
The druid is probably a better solo class in that case because the wizard lacks the damage and damage-soaking options that make the druid so awesome at that point, but it shouldn't make too much of a difference in a normal group situation.

(And you can either go eidetic or take Abrupt Jaunt, not both, so taking Eidetic Spellcaster costs you a pretty significant bit of defense.)

I was just bringing up the alternative in case I was allowed to sell the book. Some few thousands of GP at level one does things man THINGS. Also you forgot about the mention of early entry into fiery burst on top of the jaunt. The wizard can actually just spam close range cones of 2D6 fire damage all day long from level one if it comes to that.

[Sith_Happens]

As a certain gnome once said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html), "[Druids] have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"

[Taelas]

And just how do you postulate he even knows about the permanent duration shrunken, fine sized book that was injected directly into the bloodstream?

This is not something that people do.

Unless they're complete idiots, I guess.

How do you propose removing the damn thing?

[Elderand]

My opinion is that as far as the three core tier 1 classes go the druid has the highest floor but lowest ceiling, wizard is the opposite and cleric is somewhere in the middle.

I also believe the druid is the class that requires the lowest and highest amount of effort.
Lowest because pretty much no matter what you do, you can't really mess up a druid.
Highest because it takes a lot more research to push druids to their highest level than it does cleric or wizard. (Partially because there are no readily available ressources or guides on how to push the druid that far, wizards have been covered at lengths in comparaison)

[Aquillion]

http://i.imgur.com/plkq4NQ.png

Let's go over them.

First, the Druid is a prepared full caster. Their spell list isn't quite as good as wizard's, and perhaps even a bit behind the Cleric, but it's still enough that the Druid would probably be in the running for Tier 1 if this was its only feature. It has some of the best summoning in the game (which the druid can use spontaneously), a few decent save-or-X effects, powerful buffs, and some really really high-impact spells like Control Winds.

Second, the Druid has a strong animal companion. Given the range of options and the Druid's buffs, an animal companion can be nearly like having an additional fighter.

Third, you have Wild Shape, one of the best abilities in the game, giving you massive versatility and lots of power every time you use it (and high-level Druids can keep it up all the time.)

Any one of these abilities could support a decent class. Having all three of them is ridiculous, especially when they have strong synergy with each other (buffing yourself or your animal companion with spells, say, or using your animal companion to grapple an enemy while you beat it up in Wild Shape.)

[ryu]

This is not something that people do.

Unless they're complete idiots, I guess.

How do you propose removing the damn thing?

It's also a living creature with a teleportation contingency built into it. Further it is also an ice assassin and an aleax. I don't think you're fully appreciating the level of silly I put into my wizards. To put things in perspective, you know that thing you just read? It actually gets sillier from there.

[atemu1234]

Druids are worse than wizards in most situations. But basically everything is. That's not the metric by which T1 operates.

[Emperor Tippy]

Druids are Tier 1 for the same reason that every Tier 1 class is Tier 1; a very versatile and powerful spell list. They probably (some people might argue but probably not with great vehemence) have the worst of the Tier 1 spell lists but it still hits most all of the high points.

Wild Shape is enough to make a solid Tier 3 to borderline Tier 2 (with all the WS variants) class on its own.

Animal Companion could likewise serve as a credible basis for an entire Tier 4 class without much effort on the creators part.

All of that combined makes for a very versatile, very powerful, class that can throw down in the ball park of the most capable classes at that level across all level ranges.

---
All that being said, I personally rate Druids at the bottom end of Tier 1 and would probably put them at Tier 1.5 if such a thing existed.

Personally I go like this:
Tier -1: Pun-Pun, things using Manipulate Form to make abilities like "I Win".

Tier 0: Capable of doing absolutely anything and/or everything in the entire game with no starting point beyond class resources. High op Psion and Illithid Savant are the only two classes that reach this pinnacle.

Tier .5: Capable of doing absolutely everything worth doing in the entire game purely out of native resources. Wizard and Archivist are the only two classes that hit this level (and Archivist is debatable).

Tier 1: Capable of warping entire civilizations around the individuals capabilities and solving virtually any challenge in an efficient manner on less than 48 hours notice. Clerics, Artificers, and most of the rest of the Tier 1 classes are at this level; including the Druid in the hands of a competent user.

Tier 1.5: As Tier 1 with the exception that they will have greater difficulty countering other Tier 1 and 2 individuals than one might assume based on Tier. Druids are the big one here as their anti-caster abilities are just lacking that little bit of edge that most of the rest of Tier 1 has; it's nothing specific or major but just the classes spell list as a whole.

Tier 2: Every bit as capable and powerful as Tier 1, assuming that the challenge they are facing is within their area of competence.

[Pippin]

Tier 0: Capable of doing absolutely anything and/or everything in the entire game with no starting point beyond class resources. High op Psion and Illithid Savant are the only two classes that reach this pinnacle.
Your post sounded very true. I had no idea Psions could surpass Wizards, though. Where can I find an explanation about this?

[Red Fel]

Your post sounded very true. I had no idea Psions could surpass Wizards, though. Where can I find an explanation about this?

Two reasons.

First, a Spell-to-Power Erudite can learn spells as powers, then transfer them to a Psion.

Second, there are a number of shenanigans that get a Psion infinite PP.

Combine them, and you have a character who can cast any spell or use any power, without preparation, an infinite number of times per day.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your post sounded very true. I had no idea Psions could surpass Wizards, though. Where can I find an explanation about this?
(not about psions, but the other option Tippy mentioned)

The Illithid Savant prestige class allows you to eat someone's brain, and gain class abilities from it. Including spellcasting.

Acquire Class Feature (Ex): At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain’s owner, as a character of that creature’s level in that class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character (if the victim was a wizard, the mind flayer must still consult a spellbook or learn from scrolls), as well as any bonus spells provided by the illithid savant’s ability scores.

Due to the way it's worded, you can absorb a druid's wild shape (a class feature), and, since the druid is a spellcaster, you can cast a spell of each level available to the character. That's druid spells up to 9th level, if you eat a 17th-level druid's brain, and you can do fun stuff with abberation wild shape if you take that feat (which you can also gain as brain food). The feature gives you one ability at 3rd, 7th and 10th, so you can eat three characters, for access to wizard (grab spontaneous divination as class feature?), cleric (grab domains as class feature?), and druid (grab wild shape, as mentioned) casting, of the highest level you can get brains of.

And that's just what it interacts with fairly straightforwardly, I'm sure others have more complicated things to do with it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Your post sounded very true. I had no idea Psions could surpass Wizards, though. Where can I find an explanation about this?

Psions can (through use of Psychic Chiguery, Spell to Power Erudites, and Wyrm Wizard) get every single spell in the entire game onto their list of Powers Known and cast all of them without material or focus components. Psions likewise have the most efficient method of action economy (ab)use and resource recharge in the game. Get Ice Assassin onto the list of Power's Known and the Psion can Fusion/Astral Seed with an Ice Assassin of whatever he wants. All of this is doable from a starting point of zero GP and virtually entirely independent of actual build.

[Pippin]

Two reasons.

First, a Spell-to-Power Erudite can learn spells as powers, then transfer them to a Psion.

Second, there are a number of shenanigans that get a Psion infinite PP.

Combine them, and you have a character who can cast any spell or use any power, without preparation, an infinite number of times per day.
I didn't know you could transfer powers just like that. But thanks, that's good to know. I don't believe any sane DM would allow such tricks anyway.


(not about psions, but the other option Tippy mentioned)

The Illithid Savant prestige class allows you to eat someone's brain, and gain class abilities from it. Including spellcasting.

Acquire Class Feature (Ex): At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain’s owner, as a character of that creature’s level in that class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character (if the victim was a wizard, the mind flayer must still consult a spellbook or learn from scrolls), as well as any bonus spells provideded by the illithid savant’s ability scores.

Due to the way it's worded, you can absorb a druid's wild shape (a class feature), and, since the druid is a spellcaster, you can cast a spell of each level available to the character. That's druid spells up to 9th level, if you eat a 17th-level druid's brain.
Oh I wasn't asking about the Savant. Its class features are explicit enough, but thanks. Like the above, I don't believe any sane DM would allow this thing at their table. That's even cheesier than Beholder Mages.

[Emperor Tippy]

(not about psions, but the other option Tippy mentioned)

The Illithid Savant prestige class allows you to eat someone's brain, and gain class abilities from it. Including spellcasting.

Acquire Class Feature (Ex): At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain’s owner, as a character of that creature’s level in that class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character (if the victim was a wizard, the mind flayer must still consult a spellbook or learn from scrolls), as well as any bonus spells provided by the illithid savant’s ability scores.

Due to the way it's worded, you can absorb a druid's wild shape (a class feature), and, since the druid is a spellcaster, you can cast a spell of each level available to the character. That's druid spells up to 9th level, if you eat a 17th-level druid's brain, and you can do fun stuff with abberation wild shape if you take that feat (which you can also gain as brain food). You can eat three characters, for access to wizard (grab spontaneous divination as class feature?), cleric (grab domains as class feature?), and druid (grab wild shape, as mentioned) casting, of the highest level you can get brains of.

You can also eat other IS's and use Acquire Class Feature to acquire their own Acquire Class Feature and infinite loop it. You can loop it with Ice Assassin's of yourself for infinite copies of said ability and then use Ice Assassins to gain all other abilities in the game that way.

[Flickerdart]

I didn't know you could transfer powers just like that. But thanks, that's good to know. I don't believe any sane DM would allow such tricks anyway.


Oh I wasn't asking about the Savant. Its class features are explicit enough, but thanks. Like the above, I don't believe any sane DM would allow this thing at their table. That's even cheesier than Beholder Mages.
Believe it or not, there are a few tables out there where infinite cheese is the norm. Likewise, I'm sure that things you consider perfectly acceptable would be decried as cheesy by at least one table somewhere. A fighter that doesn't take Weapon Focus? Insolence! :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can also eat other IS's and use Acquire Class Feature to acquire their own Acquire Class Feature and infinite loop it. You can loop it with Ice Assassin's of yourself for infinite copies of said ability and then use Ice Assassins to gain all other abilities in the game that way.
Thank you, that was what I was looking for.

Really, it's a miracle these illithid haven't all eaten eachother by now. Or maybe they have, and we just see copies of the same one?

[Necroticplague]

1. It's a full-caster made back when WOTC had no clue how to make balanced full-casters. So it's T1 for the same reason the Wizard and Cleric are, being able to prepare any spell from its list (which the T1 assumption of wizards assumes they hunt down every useful spell, druids don't even need that part). Their spell list isn't quite as good as either, especially once you get into the high levels (unless you like causing natural disasters), but it's still pretty good.

2.On top of that, Wild Shape is an incredibly potent class feature. Even the most simple non-moronic uses of 'pick the biggest thing you can become, smack face with it' lets them easily obsolete most martials (having more damage and armor than them, thanks to big creatures getting giant piles of STR and NA). More creative uses, especially with feat (Aberrant Wild Shape, Exalted Wild Shape, Dragon Wild Shape), spells (Improved Wild Shape, various buffs), PRC (Planar Shepher, MoMF, Warshaper) support can lend to doing just about anything if you comb through the books enough.

3. Druids make excellent summoners, augmented by their spontaneous summoning. The SNA list is already full of good beatsticks, and their are several feats that give massive power boots to their summoning. Greenbound Summoning, Ashbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, just to name the first three to come to mind. They even get some Magical Beasts with decent utility (Why buy wands when you can just blow spare spell slots to summon unicorns to heal you!).

The rest of the druid class features are just icing on the cake of those three core class features (and I heavily recommend looking into ACFs to replace some of the overly situational ones. Who the heck ever as ever found Resist Nature's Lure to be that good?). Most PRCs are a downgrade because they make the druid pick between just a couple of them. The ones that improve/progess all of them, while getting different icing, are usually extremely powerful *couhg*planarshepherd*cough*

[Rubik]

You can also eat other IS's and use Acquire Class Feature to acquire their own Acquire Class Feature and infinite loop it. You can loop it with Ice Assassin's of yourself for infinite copies of said ability and then use Ice Assassins to gain all other abilities in the game that way.Except Acquire Class Feature isn't a scaling ability. Each instance is one instance, meaning that using ACF to eat another ACF gives you one ACF to use for something else.

Basically, it's using a dollar to buy a dollar. In the end, you still only have one dollar.

You can, however, use Acquire Special Attack or Special Quality to nab Acquire Class Feature (or vice versa).

And you can "eat a creature's brain" without killing it via the swallow whole ability, since you swallow the creature's body -- after which it can escape. A creature's brain is a part of its body, after all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Except Acquire Class Feature isn't a scaling ability. Each instance is one instance, meaning that using ACF to eat another ACF gives you one ACF to use for something else.

Basically, it's using a dollar to buy a dollar. In the end, you still only have one dollar.

You can, however, use Acquire Special Attack or Special Quality to nab Acquire Class Feature.

And you can "eat a creature's brain" without killing it via the swallow whole ability, since you swallow the creature's body -- after which it can escape. A creature's brain is a part of its body, after all.

True. It's ACF to get ASQ, loop to an arbitrary degree.

[Flickerdart]

And you can "eat a creature's brain" without killing it via the swallow whole ability, since you swallow the creature's body -- after which it can escape. A creature's brain is a part of its body, after all.
Swallowing is a part of eating, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's equivalent. Of course, there are other options for eating something's brain without it dying such as Regeneration, which doesn't seem to discriminate between the head and other body parts.

[Rubik]

True. It's ACF to get ASQ, loop to an arbitrary degree.It's still buying a dollar with a dollar. Whether the dollar is a coin or a bill is largely unimportant.


Swallowing is a part of eating, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's equivalent.Swallowing, say, an aspirin is still eating it, chewing notwithstanding.


Of course, there are other options for eating something's brain without it dying such as Regeneration, which doesn't seem to discriminate between the head and other body parts.You'd just have to keep the creature from dying without its brain.

I'm...not entirely sure how you could do such a thing, Astral Projection and such aside.

I guess there's always Polymorphing into a hydra or some such.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Couldn't you eat an Illithid Savant of 10th level, gain their Acquire Class Feature, and get everything listed under that header? You'd get all three class features, one for third level, one for 7th, and one for 10th. One of the uses would have to be for more uses, just like wishing for wishes, but the loop is fine.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's still buying a dollar with a dollar. Whether the dollar is a coin or a bill is largely unimportant.
Except that you get ACF as if you were an IS of the level of the IS whose brain you consume. Consume a level 10 IS and you gain 3 more uses of ACF. If your DM disagrees with that interpretation then you can use your ACF at 10th level to gain ACF, ASA, and ASQ and loop that way.

[Pippin]

About the godly psion though, I have to ask.

Can't wizards themselves add all the spells of this game in their spellbook thanks to a group of friendly / dominated / mindraped Wyrm Magicians? I'd suppose so, therefore I don't get why Psions are still better. Surely the power point system is more flexible than the spell slot system, but an uber-optimized wizard has countless spell slots anyway. Now the only thing that could make a difference between the two classes would be their class features... and I'd be tempted to say that Wizards win by a long shot (thanks to their PrCs: Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, etc.)

I'm curious as to why I'm wrong.

[Baroknik]

About the godly psion though, I have to ask.

Can't wizards themselves add all the spells of this game in their spellbook thanks to a group of friendly / dominated / mindraped Wyrm Magicians? I'd suppose so, therefore I don't get why Psions are still better. Surely the power point system is more flexible than the spell slot system, but an uber-optimized wizard has countless spell slots anyway. Now the only thing that could make a difference between the two classes would be their class features... and I'd be tempted to say that Wizards win by a long shot (thanks to their PrCs: Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, etc.)

I'm curious as to why I'm wrong.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think there is a way for wizards to learn all powers, which a psion can also do in a similar manner. This (almost) makes the wizard spell list a subset of the psion power list, but not vice versa.

[Pippin]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think there is a way for wizards to learn all powers, which a psion can also do in a similar manner. This (almost) makes the wizard spell list a subset of the psion power list, but not vice versa.
It is true that I wrote my previous post in the assumption that powers aren't as good as arcane spells, and therefore wizards could afford not knowing them.

[Red Fel]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think there is a way for wizards to learn all powers, which a psion can also do in a similar manner. This (almost) makes the wizard spell list a subset of the psion power list, but not vice versa.

This, and while a highly optimized Wizard may well have more spell slots than he needs, he doesn't have virtually infinite spell slots. Through various shenanigans, Psions can spend PP to gain even more PP, thereby having functionally unlimited PP. Note that even a Wizard who has countless spell slots only has a finite number of 9th-level slots, while PP don't distinguish between whether they're being used on 1st-level or 9th-level powers.

But yes. Even assuming a Wizard could learn any spell, that doesn't include powers; acquiring powers from an StP Erudite gets you both, and is an option unique to Psions among the Tier 1 casters.


It is true that I wrote my previous post in the assumption that powers aren't as good as arcane spells, and therefore wizards could afford not knowing them.

Well, let's just look at 9th-level powers, and only those on the SRD. 9th level is more or less where casters smash reality and balance into tiny little pieces anyway. Here are a few nuggets. Assimilate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/assimilate.htm): Deal 20d6 damage to touched target, fortitude half, plus get a buff for 1 hour. No augment needed. Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm): Render one target under 100 HP (or multiple targets under 30 HP, totalling 300) completely catatonic until they die. No save. Augment to increase the HP limits. Reality Revision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm): Basically Wish/Miracle for Psions.
On top of this, they have a surprising number of SR: No and Save: None powers. Further, the ability to augment means that low-level powers can remain useful for longer. A Psion can pretty much do whatever he needs - fly, become incorporeal, teleport, the works. About the only area where Psions lack is healing.

[Baroknik]

It is true that I wrote my previous post in the assumption that powers aren't as good as arcane spells, and therefore wizards could afford not knowing them.

That may generally be true, but the most efficient action economy abuse is psionic, including making a save point in time.
Also, even if the arcane list >> the psionic list, someone who has both had more versatility.

[AmberVael]

In the end, the crazy optimized psion has spontaneous access to all spells and powers and can recharge their power points. Its... hard to compete with unlimited access to everything.

Plus, while generally you'd rather have access to all spells over all powers, there are quite a few powers that spells either cannot duplicate, or significantly outpace their spell counterparts. Quintessence enables some true shenanigans, Hypercognition is the best divination on the planet, Temporal Acceleration is time stop but three levels lower and a swift action, Synchronicity breaks action economy into tiny pieces, and Touchsight is the best detection ability in the entire game. Just to name a few.

[Rubik]

It is true that I wrote my previous post in the assumption that powers aren't as good as arcane spells, and therefore wizards could afford not knowing them.There're quite a few psionic powers that don't have spellcasting equivalents, such as Time Hop, and several powers that are simply better than the arcane and divine equivalents, such as Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, and Psionic Minor Creation.


This, and while a highly optimized Wizard may well have more spell slots than he needs, he doesn't have virtually infinite spell slots. Through various shenanigans, Psions can spend PP to gain even more PP, thereby having functionally unlimited PP. Note that even a Wizard who has countless spell slots only has a finite number of 9th-level slots, while PP don't distinguish between whether they're being used on 1st-level or 9th-level powers.

But yes. Even assuming a Wizard could learn any spell, that doesn't include powers; acquiring powers from an StP Erudite gets you both, and is an option unique to Psions among the Tier 1 casters.Also note that StP erudites, and thus psions, are not limited to wizard spells for this, just arcane spells, which includes wizard-only spells, sorcerer-only spells, bard-only spells, spells on specialty lists (such as trapsmith spells, which are often MUCH lower level than on other lists) and any and all divine spells that are turned into arcane spells via, say, wyrm wizard, dragon spellcasting, or the Child of Eberron draconic archetype. This gives a highly optimized psion literally every single spell and psionic power in the game, completely spontaneously and at will, which is over-the-top ridiculous. If Hyperconscious is on the table, they can use any metamagic feat on them, too.

[Pippin]

Thank you all for all the information given in the last few posts.

I do get that powers aren't necessarily worse than spells now. I could see earlier that they can avoid paying costly material components by expending an additional 2 power points (I suppose they share the same mechanics Edurites have):


As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.

Source: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

(which isn't cheesy at all...) Next question: But how do they avoid XP costs?

[AmberVael]

(which isn't cheesy at all...) Next question: But how do they avoid XP costs?

Fission. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm) :smalltongue:

(In short, the strategy is to use fission and have your fissioned duplicate do whatever you want that costs xp.)

[Rubik]

Three levels in illithid savant to eat a dweomerkeeper for Supernatural Spell?

Also thought bottle to reduce XP expenditures to 500 xp.

[Pippin]

Fission. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm) :smalltongue:

(In short, the strategy is to use fission and have your fissioned duplicate do whatever you want that costs xp.)
I think that's arguable.


Three levels in illithid savant to eat a dweomerkeeper for Supernatural Spell?

Also thought bottle to reduce XP expenditures to 500 xp.
Well, I would have preferred a "psionic" solution. That's something any character can do.

[Rubik]

Well, I would have preferred a "psionic" solution. That's something any character can do.You never specified.

Also, split XP costs in a Metaconcert or Fusion.

Or procure powers with XP costs on power stones, get your paws on Astral Projection, and then manifest from the cloned stone. Or you could do my equipment duplication trick. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse)

[AmberVael]

I think that's arguable.

By RAI? Maybe. RAW? Not at all.

And even if you argue that XP costs are shared when you rejoin... you can just murder them off instead of rejoining, and remove the negative level.

[Sith_Happens]

Psions can (through use of Psychic Chiguery, Spell to Power Erudites, and Wyrm Wizard) get every single spell in the entire game onto their list of Powers Known

I forget if I've ever seen someone ask this already, but how do you ensure that anyone will actually agree to manifest Psychic Chirurgery on you? Especially if they know or suspect that you intend to use their help as a stepping stone to Unlimited Cosmic PowerTM, which they will because Hyperconscious and Metafaculty and converted divination spells.

My first thought given who I'm asking was "Get an ice assassin of them," but it doesn't seem like ice assassins or simulacra can pay XP costs.

[Forrestfire]

Dip a level of thrallherd and you can eventually get your very own StP Erudite Thrall.

[ryu]

I forget if I've ever seen someone ask this already, but how do you ensure that anyone will actually agree to manifest Psychic Chirurgery on you? Especially if they know or suspect that you intend to use their help as a stepping stone to Unlimited Cosmic PowerTM, which they will because Hyperconscious and Metafaculty and converted divination spells.

My first thought given who I'm asking was "Get an ice assassin of them," but it doesn't seem like ice assassins or simulacra can pay XP costs.

Eh. If we need a cost paying surrogate just hand it some ambrosia. Well you could also do liquid pain if evil I suppose.

[AmberVael]

I forget if I've ever seen someone ask this already, but how do you ensure that anyone will actually agree to manifest Psychic Chirurgery on you? Especially if they know or suspect that you intend to use their help as a stepping stone to Unlimited Cosmic PowerTM, which they will because Hyperconscious and Metafaculty and converted divination spells.

My first thought given who I'm asking was "Get an ice assassin of them," but it doesn't seem like ice assassins or simulacra can pay XP costs.

Be a telepath and manifest Fission. :smalltongue:

Fission: The answer to all your problems.

[eggynack]

Welp, this thread has gone in a strange direction. Not necessarily a bad one, or considering further, an all that unexpected one given the topic being tier one stuff, but still, rather strange. In any case, I'm not sure of the exact way that druids compete against all of the TO stuff, though my suspicion would be that there's some way to get access to a decent portion of at least the wizarding side of it. Worst case scenario, contemplative usually gets you where you need to go.

I do really love that seemingly new minion producing aberration, incidentally. It's like they made encounter rules into an extraordinary ability, and it looks like it lets you pump out an infinite army of fanatical underlings, which can actually be pretty decent given that you can make the underlings a specific NPC of low level that you've consumed. It's like you're getting just the followers from leadership, except the followers can be exactly what you want them to be, and they're all at the follower level cap. Weird crap. You gobble up some low level caster, and suddenly you're spamming low level spells like it's nothing.

[Heliomance]

Having played a Spirit Shaman and been decidedly underwhelmed, I really don't see what's so good about the Druid's spell list. It always seemed a bit pants to me.

[eggynack]

Having played a Spirit Shaman and been decidedly underwhelmed, I really don't see what's so good about the Druid's spell list. It always seemed a bit pants to me.
Not really sure what about it isn't awesome. You have some of the best battlefield control in the entire game, combined with an array of buff spells (including really strong defensive and utility buffs), and, y'know, pretty much anything else you could possibly desire. Basically, there's this really short list of things that the druid spell list can't really accomplish, and that stuff can be mostly accomplished by other druid stuff. I mean, if you're mostly hanging around near core, then that'd explain some of the issue. I really dislike, like, all even numbered spell levels in core for druids. If you expand out though, the stuff you can accomplish is crazy, and hell, even in core, lotsa really strong stuff does exist. I'm not really sure what thing you don't think is there, is the issue.

[Heliomance]

Not really sure what about it isn't awesome. You have some of the best battlefield control in the entire game, combined with an array of buff spells (including really strong defensive and utility buffs), and, y'know, pretty much anything else you could possibly desire. Basically, there's this really short list of things that the druid spell list can't really accomplish, and that stuff can be mostly accomplished by other druid stuff. I mean, if you're mostly hanging around near core, then that'd explain some of the issue. I really dislike, like, all even numbered spell levels in core for druids. If you expand out though, the stuff you can accomplish is crazy, and hell, even in core, lotsa really strong stuff does exist. I'm not really sure what thing you don't think is there, is the issue.

Plant Growth is an unbelievably good BFC spell, I'll grant. I once played a character that had Plant Growth about 7 times a day as an SLA. The number of problems I solved by way of instant jungle was insane. About the only thing I didn't manage to deal with using it was incorporeal undead.

[eggynack]

Plant Growth is an unbelievably good BFC spell, I'll grant. I once played a character that had Plant Growth about 7 times a day as an SLA. The number of problems I solved by way of instant jungle was insane. About the only thing I didn't manage to deal with using it was incorporeal undead.
That one's pretty sweet, yeah, and it's set up next to classics like entangle, impeding stones, occasionally stone shape, boreal wind, wall of salt, control winds, blizzard, wall of thorns, mudslide, early earthquakes, and more. Just a lot of great stuff across the levels where battlefield control is at its most relevant.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I forget if I've ever seen someone ask this already, but how do you ensure that anyone will actually agree to manifest Psychic Chirurgery on you? Especially if they know or suspect that you intend to use their help as a stepping stone to Unlimited Cosmic PowerTM, which they will because Hyperconscious and Metafaculty and converted divination spells.

My first thought given who I'm asking was "Get an ice assassin of them," but it doesn't seem like ice assassins or simulacra can pay XP costs.

The general assumption is that high-level psions use it to trade powers, similar to how wizards trade spells. So it's either "i give you X for Y" or "i pay you X gold if you teach me Y".
For the stubborn ones there's charm and dominate, which is why telepaths rule (aside from the free telepathy ACF for Mindsight).

There's also pretty much only one full-manifesting PrC, and the PrCs that are worth taking can be summed up with Anarchic Initiate, Constructor and Thrallherd.
You'll probably find room in your build for a single level of the latter to get your own pet StP Erudite if the other methods don't work.

[Chronos]

My preferred trick for bypassing XP costs on powers is to be a wu jen/psion/cerebromancer, cast Body Outside Body, and have the Bobs use expensive powers.

[Extra Anchovies]

My preferred trick for bypassing XP costs on powers is to be a wu jen/psion/cerebromancer, cast Body Outside Body, and have the Bobs use expensive powers.

I already abbreviated Body Outside Body as BoB, but I hadn't made the connection to call the clones Bobs. Had a good laugh a this, thank you.