Some machanical advice regarding an encounter

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

My PCs will be tasked with defending a village, that is approached by orc horde. While the kingdoms' main army is engaging the largest parts of invading orcs, PCs will need to bring NPCs from village B to A and organize a defence in village A. It will be very clearly stated that retreat toward safety is an unsound tactical move.

PCs will be generally be given the following tasks:
- Bringing villagers from B to A with as little casualties as possible
- Organize local militia
- Appease the panicking folks/arguing Mayors
- Usher people to build barricades
- do stuff they may come up with that will help the defenders (send out local scout to estimate enemy ETA, organize all-female fire brigade, place archers on roofs ...)

For each of these things, eventual CR of approaching horde will be reduced by a certain amount, maimally reducing it to "challenging".

When the Orcs will finally come, PCs will need to defend Point A, then be called to Point B and finally to Point C to fend off the attackers "that are overwhelming local militia".

Now PCs will be lvl 6 or 7, while for attackers I will use CR 1/2 Orcs from MM and every tenth orc will Be Orc Eye of Gruumsh. They will attack during the night. PCs will probably have at their disposal barricades, which emans that each time an orc will try to climb a barricade, PCs will get a free bonus action in form of Oppurtunity attack (once per PC).

My question is, what should be cumulative CR for orcs on each "hotspot" to make it "challenging". I want to double this CR to be cut down to challenging if PCs manage to pull off many good preparations.

Also: How should I form an "Escort mission" from B to A? The less NPCs the orcs kill/kidnap, the more will be final CR reduced. Let's say column will consist of 6 wagons full of supplies along with 60 villagers of whome 15 are "combat able", thus have a common Commoner stats but re boys and men.

If they still decide to make a move from B to A to "safety", how long should journey take? Let's say 7 days, 12 wagons with 120 people. How should I shape this up? Basically it should be a "penal march" because they will REALLY get a lot of clues that that is a bad idea.

[Brendanicus]

Wow, that's a lot of info.

Wouldn't it just be easy to wing the numbers of Orcs? If the village is surrounded by a forest, and is being attacked at night, couldn't a proper number of Orc reinforcements just "happen" to show up?

Also, are they really just Orcs? Add some diversity! Throw in a squad or two of Goblin Warg riders, and maybe Ogres. Maybe even a Half-Orc War Cleric. Half-ogres and other Large monsters could be useful, as giving them full-plate (AC 17) makes them look like a serious threat. Maybe have them tip over or destroy barricades. Fire arrows are cool, too, especially if the orcs set an important defensive position or storehouse on fire.

EDIT: I don't want to sound too critical of your idea. I really like that you have all of these cool, meaningful side objectives built into the battle. It's easy to say, "Go to points A, B, and C and kill all the Orcs there".

[Ninja_Prawn]

That sounds like a really exciting scenario, especially for anyone who has to manage spell slots.

First of all, Ogre or Half-Ogre barricade destroyers are important. I don't know if you read the angry dm, but he once wrote about designing combats by imagining how a theoretical party would handle them, then blocking their 'plan A' so that they have to think a bit. Plan A here is 'hide behind the barricades and outshoot the orcs', so give them a choice: focus fire on the Ogres or accept that some Orcs will break through the lines.

Secondly, I would note that the appropriate CR of Orcs depends on how many PCs you have and how skilled their players are. I would lean towards each set piece being 'deadly', even after you apply the reductions. This is a big, climactic battle, after all. Your healers should be kept busy. You get a lot of 100XP Orcs at level 7, though remember the rules about multiplying CR when the PCs are outnumbered.

The key to the escort mission is decisions. You have to make sure that the PCs are able to make meaningful choices at frequent intervals. Do they follow the trail or go off-road? Do they chase the fleeing Goblins or stay with the caravan? Do they protect the noble or the commoners? Do they stop and fix the rickety bridge or is it worth the risk to get away from an Orc company?

Out of interest, why is the volunteer fire brigade all-female? I'm all for affirmitive action, but I get the impression that that isn't the case here. It just seems weird.

[Pinjata]

Splendid input, splendid.

I am not really fond of winging things. I like for PCs actions to have hard, meaningful consequences (good or bad). I am not one to keep away from TPK or letting PCs roflstlp the cahllenge if they prepared well. I was thinking about diversity on attackers' part and I really like your ideas. I will surely mix in "big boys" as suggested. Also, I have written this to have my idea criticised. I totally do not mind any criticism.

Allright I am thinking about escort mission. Perhaps I should just shape two pre set encounter (for an example goblins on wargs engage column at two points, 100 ft apart, so PCs need to split the party) and if PCs manage to attract attackers attention and kill 1/3 of the enemies, they "win". Perhaps I should go round-wise about this. If 1/3 of the attackers is not killed within first 3 rounds, then villagers suffer 2 casualties, four in the next, eight in the next ... If PCs manage to deal with both encounters in three rounds each, CR is reduced by 6 alltogether. If it takes them longer to chase away the attackers, each consequitive round ads +1 to final encounter all the way back to initial CR6.

As for all-female fire brigade: All men will (probably?) be used as militia. It'll be interesting to see if PCs manage to make anything of the remaining populace. Perhaps women as fire-women and older children as runners.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Allright I am thinking about escort mission. Perhaps I should just shape two pre set encounter (for an example goblins on wargs engage column at two points, 100 ft apart, so PCs need to split the party) and if PCs manage to attract attackers attention and kill 1/3 of the enemies, they "win". Perhaps I should go round-wise about this. If 1/3 of the attackers is not killed within first 3 rounds, then villagers suffer 2 casualties, four in the next, eight in the next ... If PCs manage to deal with both encounters in three rounds each, CR is reduced by 6 alltogether. If it takes them longer to chase away the attackers, each consequitive round ads +1 to final encounter all the way back to initial CR6.

As for all-female fire brigade: All men will (probably?) be used as militia. It'll be interesting to see if PCs manage to make anything of the remaining populace. Perhaps women as fire-women and older children as runners.

I feel like you can do better than that with the escort mission. Maybe imagine it more like a supersized skill challenge that contains combat-based episodes. Draw a decision tree if that helps. Make the environment work against the PCs, as well as the Orcs and Goblins. It is nighttime, after all.

So why aren't the women in the militia? I'd want all hands on deck if I were a PC. It's not like their stats are any different...

[Pinjata]

I feel like you can do better than that with the escort mission. Maybe imagine it more like a supersized skill challenge that contains combat-based episodes. Draw a decision tree if that helps. Make the environment work against the PCs, as well as the Orcs and Goblins. It is nighttime, after all.

Can you give me a bit more concrete suggestions? Like an example? I like an idea I just do not know how to shape it ...


So why aren't the women in the militia? I'd want all hands on deck if I were a PC. It's not like their stats are any different...

Heh good point. I do not know what PCs will do in this manner, but looking from an aspect of human societies, you do not want to have the only people able to repopulate the community (thus women) in the first front line. Also these are peasants, not Vikings. No shildmaidens here.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Can you give me a bit more concrete suggestions? Like an example? I like an idea I just do not know how to shape it ...


Well, I'm at work and AFB right now... I might be able to put something together in the afternoon.

[MrStabby]

It is probably a matter of taste but I think I would prefer to add goblin arsonists to burn down barricades and to force the militia out of cover of buildings than ogres to overturn the barricades. If they can resist fire to defend the burning barricades then it would be a huge advantage.

I would just use the feature to add class levels to monsters to take a goblin and add a level of rogue - have them set fire to things, hide and shoot from the shadows. Tactically I would suggest playing the goblins as smarter than the Orcs - the Orcs charge, the goblins try and set fire to buildings with a good field of fire over the approaches to the settlement - acting in pairs. One shoots from the shadows to try and draw Militia/PCs away from the target building - the other to use the distraction to try and firebomb it.

[Pinjata]

Do you guys think that cooperation between goblins, orcs, wargs and ogres is not "optimising things on the side of DM"! Also, does it fit the fluff? I was really thinking of an Orc horde, but I wonder how cooperative would Orc warchiefs actually be?

If this was bugbear army I'd have a specialist for each task in group - and expecially sound tacticss planned. This way ... its Orcs after all.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It absolutely fits the fluff. Orcs subjugate and enslave, and goblin tribes are easy targets. Yes, orcs don't think strategically in the way hobgoblins do, but they surely understand "send do gobbos in first so as we don't get all shooted at like."

Worgs are described in the MM as favoured pets/mounts for goblins - there's even an illustration.

And we know Orcs work with Ogres because the half-orc-half-ogre hybrid has a specific name (ogrillon). Clearly they share a living space.

[Brendanicus]

Do you guys think that cooperation between goblins, orcs, wargs and ogres is not "optimising things on the side of DM"! Also, does it fit the fluff?In the 5e Monster Manual, there is a lne in te Orc section saying something to the point of, "Orcs are encouraged by their gods to interbreed as mch as possible, to increase Orcs numbers. Thus Orcs reject notions of racial purity, and gladly accept Ogres, Goblins, Ororgs, Half-Orcs, etc. into their ranks"

As to it no longer being an Orc horde, just look at the Lord of the Rings. Sauron had Orcs, goblins, and Trolls, but everybody just called it the Orc army, didn't they?

Most of your encounters should be Orcs, but throwing some other enemies would make things a lot more flavorful. This encounter is looking great.

Also, it's 2015. Don't make distinct gender roles among the defense.

[-Jynx-]

How seasoned are your PCs? Do they seem to handle encounters fairly easy? I would recommend instead of linear set of encounter after encounter try and split the party up, strike them with chaos.

What I mean by that is have a champion of the orcs lead a group into the city meanwhile 2 ogres burst through on a different side. Force the PCs to make some hard choices. Have an onslaught at the main gates be a distraction while goblin warg tropes sneak through their defenses. Give them a giant that they need to deal with!

Orcs can be your main racial make-up of the army but as it has already been said orcs are by no means beneath enlisting (or forcing) other creatures to help them. Have them start to burn a section of the village down. A seige shouldn't just be a series of set encounters you should mix it up, put pressure on them!

[Pinjata]

How seasoned are your PCs? Do they seem to handle encounters fairly easy? I would recommend instead of linear set of encounter after encounter try and split the party up, strike them with chaos.

What I mean by that is have a champion of the orcs lead a group into the city meanwhile 2 ogres burst through on a different side. Force the PCs to make some hard choices. Have an onslaught at the main gates be a distraction while goblin warg tropes sneak through their defenses. Give them a giant that they need to deal with!

Orcs can be your main racial make-up of the army but as it has already been said orcs are by no means beneath enlisting (or forcing) other creatures to help them. Have them start to burn a section of the village down. A seige shouldn't just be a series of set encounters you should mix it up, put pressure on them!
Nice. But how should I make these encounters interact if I introduce them? What benefits and penalties each brings? What is "the right choice in middle of the battle?" We should go beyond "Pick to engage encounter A, B, C or D". I really do not see this setup bringing much to encounterch mechanically. And other races - Orcs, Wargs, Ogres - will be added anyway.

[-Jynx-]

Nice. But how should I make these encounters interact if I introduce them? What benefits and penalties each brings? What is "the right choice in middle of the battle?" We should go beyond "Pick to engage encounter A, B, C or D". I really do not see this setup bringing much to encounterch mechanically.

Mechanically its meant to force panic on the PCs but as far as how it plays in your overall siege is up to you. Force them to think which is more important, you can still have them win no matter what decision they choose but you want them to sweat a little bit.

[Pinjata]

Mechanically its meant to force panic on the PCs but as far as how it plays in your overall siege is up to you. Force them to think which is more important, you can still have them win no matter what decision they choose but you want them to sweat a little bit.
Nice! It's exactly what they'll be thinking.

Also: What is the max number of encounters and their CR a group should face per day in 5e and be challenging but not an overkill?

[Person_Man]

Sounds a lot like you're running a Braunstein Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wesely) style scenario. The most fun part of such scenarios tend to be the roleplaying/political aspect. So I suggest that you focus on the those aspects (the mayor, townspeople, barricades, etc) and resolve the player's actions organically (you listen to what they want to do, then just decide what would reasonably happen), and treat the combat as an escalating threat that can't be defeated by pure combat. Instead, the orcs can only be defeated by rallying the town's morale to fight back as a whole, which in turn can only be achieved by getting X victory points on the encounters you've laid out. You should also explicitly tell the players this ("Your assessment of the orc hoard is that you cannot possibly defeat them in a strait fight, and that you'd surely be defeated if you try to take them on yourselves, but must save the townspeople and rally their spirits to achieve victory"), because many gamers assume that combat is the solution to all problems and that every combat encounters is balanced in such a way that they have a reasonable chance of winning (which they shouldn't be).

In keeping with this style, for the escort mission I would only start with 4ish orcs. Then have 1d6ish more show up 100-200 feet away, every round until the players get the villagers to safety. (You can obviously adjust the number of enemies or their distance p or down as you go if it seems like its getting too easy or too difficult). Be sure to clearly let the players know the direction the orcs are coming from, and that they're only armed with melee/thrown weapons, so that there's a clear motivation to move away from the oncoming hoard. The orcs shouldn't necessarily attack the players every round, but should instead just be rampaging about. They're something for the players to run from, not defeat.

Along the journey to the victory/safe location, be sure to set up various "set pieces" that the players can interact with to delay the pursuing hoard. A water tower, an stable full of horses, bales of hay, an ogre that's only fighting for the orcs because he's being chained and whipped (who will turn against his masters if freed), whatever. Reward the players for using their actions to creatively delay the hoard or increase the survivability of the townsfolk, while making it clear that killing orcs will temporally delay them, but will only result in an even larger number of orcs being attracted towards them the next round. Again, make this explicit. ("Attracted by the sounds of combat and scent of fresh blood, you see another half dozen orcs turn their heads in your direction, scream a war cry to their dark god, and then run towards the villagers with weapons flailing.")

[Ninja_Prawn]

OP, I'm trying to give you an example of how I'd do the escort mission, and I have a few specific questions. How many PCs do you have? What races / classes? How tactically astute are the players? Are there any NPCs they could appeal to for help?

Also, have you established the distance between A and B, or can we make it up?

Most importantly (to me), why are the orcs attacking? Why do the players care?

[Pinjata]

OP, I'm trying to give you an example of how I'd do the escort mission, and I have a few specific questions. How many PCs do you have? What races / classes? How tactically astute are the players? Are there any NPCs they could appeal to for help?

Also, have you established the distance between A and B, or can we make it up?

Most importantly (to me), why are the orcs attacking? Why do the players care?

Four PCs, level 7. Am unsure of races and classes, because I do not have a team set up yet. Lets just go standard fighter+cleric+rog+wiz. Thus, we can say players are "average" regarding tactics.

They can get "militia" to help them, but militia is quite unwilling to depart village A. They also have access to a village ranger that can serve as a scout.

Distance between A and B takes 12 hours to be traversed by a cart, 10 hours with a brisk march or 8 hours with a horse (steady pace). Its mainly an old road throught the forest.

Orcs are attacking, because they have gotten a "critical mass". A dominant orc warlord has emerged, united several dozen orc tribes, had ogres/goblins join and must now channel this force into civilised areas.

Players will enter the Big city, where "North is being attacked" will be big again. They will get wind of local Good temples organizing defence along with army of the Realm. If even one of them will be of Good alignment or for an example a Cleric, I'll give them a few nudges to go along. Motivation will be to do good. Its funny how every adventurer of every level and alignment is runing North to get part of the Orc pie, and these guys just sit and wait for the days to pass. I can not really imagine that and do not find it probable.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ok, thanks, I can work with that. I'll come back in a few hours.

Note that this will be just one suggestion. You may prefer something different; that's not a problem.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Okay, this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ruabxhe025smo9/Escort%20Mission.pdf?dl=0) is what I meant by a skill challenge with a tree-like structure. I apologise if there's any glaring mistakes in there; I hacked it together on the train home. Use it if you like, leave it if you don't. :smallsmile: Obviously, I don't know your players, I don't know what they like or dislike, etc.

Anyway, let us know how the session goes. It sounds like it will be a good one! :smallbiggrin:

[Brendanicus]

Okay, this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ruabxhe025smo9/Escort%20Mission.pdf?dl=0) is what I meant by a skill challenge with a tree-like structure. I apologise if there's any glaring mistakes in there; I hacked it together on the train home. Use it if you like, leave it if you don't. :smallsmile: Obviously, I don't know your players, I don't know what they like or dislike, etc.

Anyway, let us know how the session goes. It sounds like it will be a good one! :smallbiggrin:This flowchart is awesome! I might actually steal it, and use it for a one-shot.

[Safety Sword]

Okay, this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ruabxhe025smo9/Escort%20Mission.pdf?dl=0) is what I meant by a skill challenge with a tree-like structure. I apologise if there's any glaring mistakes in there; I hacked it together on the train home. Use it if you like, leave it if you don't. :smallsmile: Obviously, I don't know your players, I don't know what they like or dislike, etc.

Anyway, let us know how the session goes. It sounds like it will be a good one! :smallbiggrin:

That's some nice work Ninja_Prawn!

GitP people are the best people ;)

[1Forge]

i dont know if its too late but to solve the issue with fleeing to safety is easy. these poor villagers from town A will not leave they have nothing left exept this town.Then say fleeing with town B would be too difficult because orc reinforcements have already blocked that way of retreat, or the ranger guide wont guide them without town A.

And also dont have goblin slaves be the first to fight have the orc's send in halfling slaves or human slaves first with bombs to kamikazi the town fortifications. Makes a roleplaying opportunity, immerses characters, and creates an epic moral dilemma.

[Ninja_Prawn]

fleeing with town B would be too difficult because orc reinforcements have already blocked that way of retreat,

That's how I imagined it. There is a 'safe location', presumably a fort, castle or walled town a few days' march away, but the Orcs are firmly in control of all the territory between the villages and 'safety'. You'd never make it through.

Also, what's the difference between killing goblin slaves and killing halfling slaves? Apart from the AC, I mean. They're both sentient beings, forced to fight against their will, right?

[Pinjata]

Okay, this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ruabxhe025smo9/Escort%20Mission.pdf?dl=0) is what I meant by a skill challenge with a tree-like structure. I apologise if there's any glaring mistakes in there; I hacked it together on the train home. Use it if you like, leave it if you don't. :smallsmile: Obviously, I don't know your players, I don't know what they like or dislike, etc.

Anyway, let us know how the session goes. It sounds like it will be a good one! :smallbiggrin:

This ... just wow. I will definitely use it.


Also: What is the max number of encounters and their CR a group should face per day in 5e and be challenging but not an overkill?

[Ninja_Prawn]

This ... just wow. I will definitely use it.


Also: What is the max number of encounters and their CR a group should face per day in 5e and be challenging but not an overkill?

Thanks! I've just added a section for 'scouting ahead' - you might want to check it again.

Encounters/day: There are guidelines in the DMG for this (AFB) and it's a surprisingly large number of monsters per day. The adventurers' union has taken a bashing in 5e.

And tonight is no 'average adventuring day'. Tonight is the worst night of your PCs' lives. I would not be afraid to throw as much as you like at them.

[Pinjata]

Thanks! I've just added a section for 'scouting ahead' - you might want to check it again.

Encounters/day: There are guidelines in the DMG for this (AFB) and it's a surprisingly large number of monsters per day. The adventurers' union has taken a bashing in 5e.
May I ask for a page number in DMG? Too often I have been searching too long after being sure I'll find it in a sec.

[Ninja_Prawn]

May I ask for a page number in DMG? Too often I have been searching too long after being sure I'll find it in a sec.

From memory, encounter size and CR is around page 81/82? I think... Someone else might have to confirm.

[1Forge]

Also, what's the difference between killing goblin slaves and killing halfling slaves? Apart from the AC, I mean. They're both sentient beings, forced to fight against their will, right?

Because goblins tend to be evil and most races are okay with you killing goblins, innocent halflings (or some other nice race) are in fact harder to kill because they are probably good and people wont want to kill them. And the halflings wont retreat because their "families" will die if they do. (though some universes have goblins shed in a different light)

[Celcey]

Okay, this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ruabxhe025smo9/Escort%20Mission.pdf?dl=0) is what I meant by a skill challenge with a tree-like structure. I apologise if there's any glaring mistakes in there; I hacked it together on the train home. Use it if you like, leave it if you don't. :smallsmile: Obviously, I don't know your players, I don't know what they like or dislike, etc.

Anyway, let us know how the session goes. It sounds like it will be a good one! :smallbiggrin:

*Slow whistle*

Holy cow, that is AMAZING. What did you even make that in?

[Ninja_Prawn]

*Slow whistle*

Holy cow, that is AMAZING. What did you even make that in?

Thank you!

The text was written in Microsoft Word, the tree in Microsoft PowerPoint. Converted to pdf with Adobe Reader. They may be simple tools, but they do the job.