Easy_Lee
2015-05-19, 08:06 PM
Pretty unhappy with two weapon fighting. As discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406306-Making-dual-wield-more-viable-simple-fix&highlight=dual+wield) in multiple places, dual wield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400664-Optimizing-dual-wielding&highlight=dual+wield) and its related features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411343-Dual-Wielder-feat-Its-a-trap!)are a bit wonky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410351-Dual-wielding-but-not-really&highlight=dual+wield). It's strong until about level 5 or so, at which point dual wield becomes weak.
So, I've written an overhaul for it. I address three things: the basic two weapon fighting rules, the two weapon fighting style, and the dual wielder feat. My goals:
Make sure TWF does less damage than a great weapon, but more than dueling.
TWF should have a niche: it should be better at a certain thing than other builds.
Fix the problem that dual wield doesn't work as well with haste and magic weapon as other features.
Fix the problem that the people who benefit the most from dual wielding, such as rangers and rogues, get no benefit from it if they use their bonus action for anything else, and gain more benefit from crossbow expert or polearm mastery.
Make rapier + dagger, one of the most historically accurate uses of dual wield, possible without a feat.
Two-weapon fighting style currently adds attribute to damage. This is stronger than other options early on, and weak late. Fix that.
Without further ado:
Two-Weapon Fighting: PHB 195
When wielding two light weapons or a dagger and one other weapon, you are two-weapon fighting. You gain the following benefits:
When you take the attack action, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a regular weapon attack. Use the weapons' combined weapon dice and the higher enhancement bonus (if either weapon has an enhancement bonus). This counts as a single weapon attack. Update: If you take the attack action more than once on your turn due to having additional actions, such as from action surge or haste, you may use this feature once during each additional action.
You may treat your two weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of effects such as magic weapon and Warlock's Blade Pact and for the purpose of drawing and sheathing.
So if wielding two short swords, your attack two weapon attack deals 2d6+attribute, using the higher of the two enhancement bonuses if one of your weapons has one. If wielding a rapier and dagger, it would be 1d8+1d4+attribute. This is exactly the same as a greatsword deals. After extra attack, you would make one weapon attack, one two weapon attack for a combined 3d6+2*attribute with shortswords, 1d6 less than a greatsword. If you have poisoned weapons or similar, this may be beneficial. Otherwise, greatswords and polearms deal more damage.
Rapier + dagger is now possible. Rogues gain extra damage from two-weapon fighting without having to give up their bonus.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: PHB 72
Two-weapon fighting no longer requires that both weapons have the light property. When wielding two weapons, you strike with whichever hand has the better angle of attack, gaining a +1 bonus to weapon attack rolls.
That means +1 damage and +1 to hit. That's half of dueling, half of archery, and scales evenly. I don't know how to make this more balanced.
Dual Wielder Feat: PHB 165
Once on your turn, when you take the attack action and are two-weapon fighting, you may make one attack as a bonus action.
While two-weapon fighting, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a reaction weapon attack, such as an opportunity attack.
Just like other weapon feats, it grants a full bonus attack and allows for one unique benefit: better reaction attacks in this case. Thus, this feat will pair well with sentinel, mage slayer, giant killer, and similar.
Level 3 Rogue
Normal full attack: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier
Updated single attack, bonus retained: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier (same)
Level 5 Rogue, Mod = 3 assumed
Crossbow Expert: 2d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 23.5
Updated TWF + Dual Wielder: 3d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 27
Level 5 Fighter
Dueling: 2*(1d8+2+modifier) = ~21
Updated TWF: 3d8+2*modifier = ~21.5
Great Weapon: 2*(2d6 + ~1.33 (great weapon fighting) (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47172/how-much-damage-does-great-weapon-fighting-add-on-average) + modifier) = ~24.66
Level 11 Fighter, assumed max attack attribute by now
Dueling + Polearm Mastery + Quarterstaff: 3*(1d6+2+5 )+(1d4+2+5) = 41
Updated TWF + Updated Dual Wielder: 4*(1d8+5)+1d8 = 42.5
Halberd + Polearm Mastery: 3*(1d10+1+5)+1d4+1+5 = 43
Think I accomplished what I set out to do. Thoughts?
Edit: Updated Base Two-Weapon Fighting: if you have multiple actions, can make multiple two-weapon strikes.
So, I've written an overhaul for it. I address three things: the basic two weapon fighting rules, the two weapon fighting style, and the dual wielder feat. My goals:
Make sure TWF does less damage than a great weapon, but more than dueling.
TWF should have a niche: it should be better at a certain thing than other builds.
Fix the problem that dual wield doesn't work as well with haste and magic weapon as other features.
Fix the problem that the people who benefit the most from dual wielding, such as rangers and rogues, get no benefit from it if they use their bonus action for anything else, and gain more benefit from crossbow expert or polearm mastery.
Make rapier + dagger, one of the most historically accurate uses of dual wield, possible without a feat.
Two-weapon fighting style currently adds attribute to damage. This is stronger than other options early on, and weak late. Fix that.
Without further ado:
Two-Weapon Fighting: PHB 195
When wielding two light weapons or a dagger and one other weapon, you are two-weapon fighting. You gain the following benefits:
When you take the attack action, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a regular weapon attack. Use the weapons' combined weapon dice and the higher enhancement bonus (if either weapon has an enhancement bonus). This counts as a single weapon attack. Update: If you take the attack action more than once on your turn due to having additional actions, such as from action surge or haste, you may use this feature once during each additional action.
You may treat your two weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of effects such as magic weapon and Warlock's Blade Pact and for the purpose of drawing and sheathing.
So if wielding two short swords, your attack two weapon attack deals 2d6+attribute, using the higher of the two enhancement bonuses if one of your weapons has one. If wielding a rapier and dagger, it would be 1d8+1d4+attribute. This is exactly the same as a greatsword deals. After extra attack, you would make one weapon attack, one two weapon attack for a combined 3d6+2*attribute with shortswords, 1d6 less than a greatsword. If you have poisoned weapons or similar, this may be beneficial. Otherwise, greatswords and polearms deal more damage.
Rapier + dagger is now possible. Rogues gain extra damage from two-weapon fighting without having to give up their bonus.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: PHB 72
Two-weapon fighting no longer requires that both weapons have the light property. When wielding two weapons, you strike with whichever hand has the better angle of attack, gaining a +1 bonus to weapon attack rolls.
That means +1 damage and +1 to hit. That's half of dueling, half of archery, and scales evenly. I don't know how to make this more balanced.
Dual Wielder Feat: PHB 165
Once on your turn, when you take the attack action and are two-weapon fighting, you may make one attack as a bonus action.
While two-weapon fighting, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a reaction weapon attack, such as an opportunity attack.
Just like other weapon feats, it grants a full bonus attack and allows for one unique benefit: better reaction attacks in this case. Thus, this feat will pair well with sentinel, mage slayer, giant killer, and similar.
Level 3 Rogue
Normal full attack: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier
Updated single attack, bonus retained: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier (same)
Level 5 Rogue, Mod = 3 assumed
Crossbow Expert: 2d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 23.5
Updated TWF + Dual Wielder: 3d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 27
Level 5 Fighter
Dueling: 2*(1d8+2+modifier) = ~21
Updated TWF: 3d8+2*modifier = ~21.5
Great Weapon: 2*(2d6 + ~1.33 (great weapon fighting) (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47172/how-much-damage-does-great-weapon-fighting-add-on-average) + modifier) = ~24.66
Level 11 Fighter, assumed max attack attribute by now
Dueling + Polearm Mastery + Quarterstaff: 3*(1d6+2+5 )+(1d4+2+5) = 41
Updated TWF + Updated Dual Wielder: 4*(1d8+5)+1d8 = 42.5
Halberd + Polearm Mastery: 3*(1d10+1+5)+1d4+1+5 = 43
Think I accomplished what I set out to do. Thoughts?
Edit: Updated Base Two-Weapon Fighting: if you have multiple actions, can make multiple two-weapon strikes.