TWF Overhaul

[Easy_Lee]

Pretty unhappy with two weapon fighting. As discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406306-Making-dual-wield-more-viable-simple-fix&highlight=dual+wield) in multiple places, dual wield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400664-Optimizing-dual-wielding&highlight=dual+wield) and its related features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411343-Dual-Wielder-feat-Its-a-trap!)are a bit wonky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410351-Dual-wielding-but-not-really&highlight=dual+wield). It's strong until about level 5 or so, at which point dual wield becomes weak.

So, I've written an overhaul for it. I address three things: the basic two weapon fighting rules, the two weapon fighting style, and the dual wielder feat. My goals:

Make sure TWF does less damage than a great weapon, but more than dueling.
TWF should have a niche: it should be better at a certain thing than other builds.
Fix the problem that dual wield doesn't work as well with haste and magic weapon as other features.
Fix the problem that the people who benefit the most from dual wielding, such as rangers and rogues, get no benefit from it if they use their bonus action for anything else, and gain more benefit from crossbow expert or polearm mastery.
Make rapier + dagger, one of the most historically accurate uses of dual wield, possible without a feat.
Two-weapon fighting style currently adds attribute to damage. This is stronger than other options early on, and weak late. Fix that.

Without further ado:

Two-Weapon Fighting: PHB 195
When wielding two light weapons or a dagger and one other weapon, you are two-weapon fighting. You gain the following benefits:

When you take the attack action, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a regular weapon attack. Use the weapons' combined weapon dice and the higher enhancement bonus (if either weapon has an enhancement bonus). This counts as a single weapon attack. Update: If you take the attack action more than once on your turn due to having additional actions, such as from action surge or haste, you may use this feature once during each additional action.
You may treat your two weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of effects such as magic weapon and Warlock's Blade Pact and for the purpose of drawing and sheathing.

So if wielding two short swords, your attack two weapon attack deals 2d6+attribute, using the higher of the two enhancement bonuses if one of your weapons has one. If wielding a rapier and dagger, it would be 1d8+1d4+attribute. This is exactly the same as a greatsword deals. After extra attack, you would make one weapon attack, one two weapon attack for a combined 3d6+2*attribute with shortswords, 1d6 less than a greatsword. If you have poisoned weapons or similar, this may be beneficial. Otherwise, greatswords and polearms deal more damage.

Rapier + dagger is now possible. Rogues gain extra damage from two-weapon fighting without having to give up their bonus.

Two-Weapon Fighting Style: PHB 72
Two-weapon fighting no longer requires that both weapons have the light property. When wielding two weapons, you strike with whichever hand has the better angle of attack, gaining a +1 bonus to weapon attack rolls.

That means +1 damage and +1 to hit. That's half of dueling, half of archery, and scales evenly. I don't know how to make this more balanced.

Dual Wielder Feat: PHB 165

Once on your turn, when you take the attack action and are two-weapon fighting, you may make one attack as a bonus action.
While two-weapon fighting, you may make a two-weapon attack in place of a reaction weapon attack, such as an opportunity attack.

Just like other weapon feats, it grants a full bonus attack and allows for one unique benefit: better reaction attacks in this case. Thus, this feat will pair well with sentinel, mage slayer, giant killer, and similar.


Level 3 Rogue

Normal full attack: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier
Updated single attack, bonus retained: 2d6 (weapons) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + modifier (same)

Level 5 Rogue, Mod = 3 assumed

Crossbow Expert: 2d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 23.5
Updated TWF + Dual Wielder: 3d6 (weapons) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2*3 = 27

Level 5 Fighter

Dueling: 2*(1d8+2+modifier) = ~21
Updated TWF: 3d8+2*modifier = ~21.5
Great Weapon: 2*(2d6 + ~1.33 (great weapon fighting) (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47172/how-much-damage-does-great-weapon-fighting-add-on-average) + modifier) = ~24.66

Level 11 Fighter, assumed max attack attribute by now

Dueling + Polearm Mastery + Quarterstaff: 3*(1d6+2+5 )+(1d4+2+5) = 41
Updated TWF + Updated Dual Wielder: 4*(1d8+5)+1d8 = 42.5
Halberd + Polearm Mastery: 3*(1d10+1+5)+1d4+1+5 = 43


Think I accomplished what I set out to do. Thoughts?

Edit: Updated Base Two-Weapon Fighting: if you have multiple actions, can make multiple two-weapon strikes.

[Kidbuu51]

This is awesome. I agree with this completly, though how would this stack against a gw fighter using power attacks? Doesn't this out weight greatswords and other two handers? Especially at 4 attacks?

[Easy_Lee]

This is awesome. I agree with this completly, though how would this stack against a gw fighter using power attacks? Doesn't this out weight greatswords and other two handers? Especially at 4 attacks?

Power attacks with a great weapon will beat this considerably, if the attacks land consistently. Sharpshooter could similarly push archery ahead, especially given the to-hit bonus. Other than that, the great weapon will pull ahead given an equal number of attacks.

[Mjolnirbear]

Let me see if I understand correctly:

When wielding two light weapons or any weapon and a dagger, add the damage of the second weapon directly to a successful attack during the attack action. You may only do this once per turn.

So: one Attack with rapier and dagger: 1d8+1d4+mod
Extra Attack Action with Rapier and dagger:
2 x(1d8+mod) +1d4.

[Mjolnirbear]

And with Dual Wielder feat:

One attack with rapier and dagger:
1d8+ 1d4+mod, then bonus action 1d8 (+mod?)


How would Haste work with this? Action Surge?

I'll be honest. It feels strong. I'm not enough a mathematician to confirm or dispute your findings: but your casual player who also can't math his way out of a paper bag is likely to pick TWF, because look, free damage. Especially a class that has no way to to get Duelling.

It is roughly equivalent to a great weapon I suppose. And dw feat adds very good damage--but have you accounted for the many more hits a TWF with DW will have than a GWF with that feat?

I love dual wielding. Getting this would make me ecstatic. That tells my gut it's too good to be true. But I'm willing to be convinced...

[Submortimer]

And with Dual Wielder feat:

One attack with rapier and dagger:
1d8+ 1d4+mod, then bonus action 1d8 (+mod?)


How would Haste work with this? Action Surge?


The way it's written, those wouldn't change.

Haste gets you an extra attack as a bonus action.

Action surge lets you attack again.

Neither of those things would let you do the Two-weapon attack again (Since it's once per turn), and haste would be useless (As far as the extra attack goes) to someone with the feat.

That being said, This basically gives Colossus Slayer to everyone, and lets rangers do it twice per turn; I like it. It's very simple, easy to understand, and adds a tangible benefit. I would retain the +1 AC on the dual Wielder feat, though: TWF's should be right in the middle of the AC vs. Damage teeter-totter, Higher than GWF but lower than Dueling.

[Easy_Lee]

The way it's written, those wouldn't change.

Haste gets you an extra attack as a bonus action.

Action surge lets you attack again.

Neither of those things would let you do the Two-weapon attack again (Since it's once per turn), and haste would be useless (As far as the extra attack goes) to someone with the feat.

Also, haste and action surge would still benefit great weapon users and duelists a little more, due to the extra attacks having higher dice / damage mods. But as long as two-weapon fighters are able to treat their weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of spells like Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon, it shouldn't be a major concern.

[Alerad]

Thank you for putting everything together, it looks very nice.

Two questions.


How does it work for Rogues? I get the idea dual wielding was good way for them to get better chance to land Sneak Attack, using bonus action if the first attack misses.

Edit: I saw that the Dual Wielder feat fixes this. Thanks.


1) How does it work with thrown weapons?

2) The +1 to hit and +1 to damage represents hitting the opponent with whichever weapon is more convenient, but do you still get to choose which weapon deals the damage? If you have a rapier and a dagger, or one of your weapons is magical can you always prefer the better one?

[Amnoriath]

1. The TWF style is currently the best style right now not only increasing your base damage from 2d6 to 2d8 but it also gives a +1 weapon bonus that stacks with magical. Basically you are giving them a Magic missile per attack along with an attack bonus. The the damage die increase alone on average is as good as Dueling especially if they can just take the average damage rather than roll.
2. While it is a decent and simple fix keep in mind the TH's only deal big damage if they take a big penalty to attack or if they find consistent extra damage die.

[Steampunkette]

I think you misunderstand, Amnoriath.

Let's say you've got a Greatsword Fighter and a TWF with dual rapiers under this ruleset.

The Greatsword fighter makes 4 attacks at 2d6+Str+Enhancement.

The TWF makes 1 attack at 2d8+Dex+Enchantment, and then 3 attacks at 1d8+Dex+Enchantment.

The bonus action attack is just being rolled into the first attack of the normal attack action, leaving the Bonus Action open for other options.

The fighting style also gives a flat +1 attack and +1 damage to each of the attacks.

If they take the Dual Wielder feat they can make another normal attack as a bonus action. To me that's where this might go a little -too- far in damage increasing to bring TWF up. But I could be wrong. Personally I'd probably have it go through with no stat bonuses and be the offhand weapon only (To make sure Fighters still have an edge, here).

Though the Reaction of 2d8 is pretty awesome.

[Easy_Lee]

1) How does it work with thrown weapons?

2) The +1 to hit and +1 to damage represents hitting the opponent with whichever weapon is more convenient, but do you still get to choose which weapon deals the damage? If you have a rapier and a dagger, or one of your weapons is magical can you always prefer the better one?

Thrown weapons are something DMs need to adjudicate, in my opinion. Drawing ammunition is part of an attack, but thrown weapons do not count as ammunition, and players are limited to drawing one weapon per round. I would say that, if a player wishes to focus on thrown weapons, then drawing one should be considered part of the attack.

Beyond that, I suppose they count as one-handed ranged attacks so gaining the benefit of TWF would be up to the DM. I'd allow it, personally.

[Alerad]

Thrown weapons are something DMs need to adjudicate, in my opinion. Drawing ammunition is part of an attack, but thrown weapons do not count as ammunition, and players are limited to drawing one weapon per round. I would say that, if a player wishes to focus on thrown weapons, then drawing one should be considered part of the attack.

Beyond that, I suppose they count as one-handed ranged attacks so gaining the benefit of TWF would be up to the DM. I'd allow it, personally.

Ok, nice. Drawing weapons is something I wasn't very pedantic about in the first place, I just assume if you can make X attacks per turn you can throw X thrown weapons as well.

I see that the feat actually gives you the same freedom with an extra attack as a bonus action, so it seems balanced. Otherwise I assume you can throw 2 handaxes together for 2d6 + Str mod damage, and possibly a third handaxe separately with the Dual Wielder feat.

We are playing this week and I'll try out your system. Thanks!

[Easy_Lee]

Ok, nice. Drawing weapons is something I wasn't very pedantic about in the first place, I just assume if you can make X attacks per turn you can throw X thrown weapons as well.

I see that the feat actually gives you the same freedom with an extra attack as a bonus action, so it seems balanced. Otherwise I assume you can throw 2 handaxes together for 2d6 + Str mod damage, and possibly a third handaxe separately with the Dual Wielder feat.

We are playing this week and I'll try out your system. Thanks!

Cool! Let me know how it goes.

[Symphony]

Fix the problem that dual wield doesn't work as well with haste and magic weapon as other features.


This doesn't change how dual wielding interacts with Haste in the slightest. It also interacts poorly with Action Surge.

Perhaps instead of "once per turn", it should be "once per attack action" or similar.

[Gnomes2169]

Haste gets you an extra attack as a bonus action.

Actually, haste's bonus attack is listed as its own action, and does not require your bonus action. It's listed as one of three things you can do without spending an action (those things being dashing, disengaging or making a single weapon attack). So there is still interaction there, even if the feat is taken.

And count me in the group that wants it to be 1/ attack action instead of 1/ turn. And the group that wants to see the +1 AC from the feat, as TWF is still solidly in the middle of the road as far as damage, it should still be the middle of the road for AC as well.

I do wonder how this interacts with the ranger's whirlwind feature. Is every attack a two weapon attack, or none of them since you are taking an action other than the attack action?

[Easy_Lee]

This doesn't change how dual wielding interacts with Haste in the slightest. It also interacts poorly with Action Surge.

Perhaps instead of "once per turn", it should be "once per attack action" or similar.

This went through a few iterations, and I think this was left out. Yes, this is basically what I intended. Updating the OP.

[aceynn88]

I'm a fan of this. It makes any dual wield character feel like it should; a flurry of attacks. At 20th level, and having the dual wielder feat, the fighter can make up to "7" attacks (really 6 but I count the double weapon attack as 2). The double strike (2), 3 regular attacks (5), bonus action attack from Dual Wielder (6, and I agree this should be done with no damage mod), and if they have haste it's 7 in total.

The damage will not exceed a great weapon fighter, as the -5/+10 feat keeps them ahead. This also buts TWF ahead of sword and board style, which it should be.

These tweaks make it the death by a thousand cuts style that seems to be missing from this game. Something else I really like is that the change of "you attack with whatever weapon is at the best angle" makes it so I can be much more flavorful. The only issue I see with this is that I can just make all attacks with the best weapon, so i would write in Duel Wielder that it has to be done with the secondary weapon.

[SonsOfSauron]

Looking through this again, the overhaul fixes how TWF works when fighting a single target, but now it seems to not really be beneficial when attacking multiple targets (which you can't do until 4th or 5th level for most characters).

EDIT: Maybe something like this could be a direction to go in for the core TWF rules. (This is assuming the modified TWF fighting style.)

Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding two light weapons or a dagger and one other weapon, you are two-weapon fighting. Whenever you take the Attack action with a weapon on your turn, you can take an additional number of attacks using the weapon in your other hand as a bonus action. The number of additional attacks is equal to either your Dexterity modifier or the number of attacks you took with the Attack action, whichever is lower (minimum one).

With this version of TWF, you have to invest in your Dexterity (which is already likely for a TWFer), and it's capped by the number of attacks you take with the attack action. This doesn't really interact with action surge or haste, but I'm not too concerned with that tbh. This doesn't help people that want to focus on heavy armor and two-weapon fighting, but honestly someone in heavy armor is going to get more value out of Strength anyway with GWF.

The only concern I would have is a ranger or barbarian outpacing the Monk in # of attacks

[Inchoroi]

I posted this in another thread, but perhaps a simpler fix would be to have you deal extra damage equal to your proficiency bonus when you hit with a main hand attack and an off hand attack on your turn. I'm hesitant to mess with core systems, personally.

Has anyone used these rules in actual game yet?

[Magic Myrmidon]

Just found this, and as usual, I like it. I'll add it to my growing list of subscriptions to your homebrew, and pitch it to my DM.