Transcend Mortality - Theoretical Abuse and General Wu Jen Shenanigans

[ekarney]

So I was designing a Wu Jen NPC for a campaign, and long story short Transcend Mortality looks like it could be subjected to some interesting abuse (I don't plan on making use of the abuse, that would be too mean) but as a theoretical exercise it could be fun.

There's already the two Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix tricks which involve caster TM then making use of the JP's level 10 class feature which kills you just after activation and brings you back 1d6 rounds later, and the interesting time of turning it into a touch spell instead of a personal spell, giving you 20 rounds to laugh and run.

However there's gotta be some more interesting things to do with it, you could persist it, giving a day of god mode.

Could we have an Artificer make a scroll of Transcend Mortality and another scroll with a metamagic trigger on it to revive the dead party member.

What other abuse could we subject this spell to?


On top of that I'm interested in learning about Wu Jens and all their little quirks and builds, however I'm DMing a high-power Forgotten Realms campaign at the moment, so most of my D&D time is devoted to building sentient enemies or working on my Mini Campaign Setting.

[jiriku]

Well.

Persisted and Extended, it lasts two days. I can think of a lot of one-shots and campaign-ending climaxes where you reach a point that you can tell that the game will be over in less than two days game-time. At that point, mechanically you might as well do it -- the game will be over before the spell kills you and you've just given yourself a hell of an epilogue.

I have also seen people suggest combining it with body outside body to put the benefit on temporary copies of you that won't live long anyhow.

Oh. Oh my. At that level, just get yourself a ring of spell storing and give it to, well, anything. Have your summoned monster cast it. Have your gated epic-level bruiser cast it. Have some monsters that you charmed in the previous encounter cast it. The spell's drawback is trivial when it is used on a temporary creature or one whose fate is unimportant to you.

[Douglas]

giving you 20 rounds to laugh and run.
It's dismissible. No need to wait, just spend a standard action (which, incidentally, you will have available the same round as you cast it because the casting time is an immediate action).

[ekarney]

I have also seen people suggest combining it with body outside body to put the benefit on temporary copies of you that won't live long anyhow.


I've seen suggestions like that before that involve using dips and similar but I've never seen it explained, specifically what classes and feats are involved and what the technique is to give the Wu Jen wizard spells and to give the clones spells as SLA's so that they can cast.


I suppose I should edit the OP.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've seen suggestions like that before that involve using dips and similar but I've never seen it explained, specifically what classes and feats are involved and what the technique is to give the Wu Jen wizard spells and to give the clones spells as SLA's so that they can cast.


I suppose I should edit the OP.

Be a Wu Jen.
Take at least one level of Archmage, choosing Spell-like ability:Transcend Mortality as your SLA.
Cast Body outside Body.
Have your clones use said SLA.

There's not really any trick to it, though you may want to combine it with JPM or something like that so your clones are actually capable of doing something effective.
Another option is a Druid/Wu Jen/Arcane Hierophant/Archmage build to use it with Wild Shape.

[ben-zayb]

You're Welcome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247884-3-5-Dolly-the-8-round-God)

As for TO tricks with Transcend Mortality, check out the Spellguard of Silverymoon class in PGtF. Maniacal laugh is optional.

[ekarney]

Be a Wu Jen.
Take at least one level of Archmage, choosing Spell-like ability:Transcend Mortality as your SLA.
Cast Body outside Body.
Have your clones use said SLA.


I need to start looking into classes outside of builds directly relevant to what I'm currently focusing on then, that's a pretty nifty little feature right there,

I've heard there's a way to get Sorc/Wiz spells onto a Wu Jen which actually would be helpful for the NPC I'm building. Or is it just from liberally interpreting Extra Spell/Sanctum Spell abuse?

I've also maybe seen (I've done a lot of browsing recently, and everything tends to get jumbled) that you ca use clones ot give you feats you didn't normally have?


You're Welcome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247884-3-5-Dolly-the-8-round-God)

As for TO tricks with Transcend Mortality, check out the Spellguard of Silverymoon class in PGtF. Maniacal laugh is optional.

That's abhorrent, I love it!

[sleepyphoenixx]

I need to start looking into classes outside of builds directly relevant to what I'm currently focusing on then, that's a pretty nifty little feature right there,

I've heard there's a way to get Sorc/Wiz spells onto a Wu Jen which actually would be helpful for the NPC I'm building. Or is it just from liberally interpreting Extra Spell/Sanctum Spell abuse?

I've also maybe seen (I've done a lot of browsing recently, and everything tends to get jumbled) that you ca use clones ot give you feats you didn't normally have?


Wu Jen qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order just as easily as Wizards do. They can also qualify for Shadowcraft Mage.

[ShurikVch]

There's already the two Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix tricks which involve caster TM then making use of the JP's level 10 class feature which kills you just after activation and brings you back 1d6 rounds laterNote: Emerald Immolation doesn't actually stops duration of Transcend Mortality, so, when you reform after d6 rounds, you still may be under the effect (unless duration time is out)
and the interesting time of turning it into a touch spell instead of a personal spell, giving you 20 rounds to laugh and run.How?

Persisted and Extended, it lasts two days.Nope. It will last one day and 1 round/level

[ezkajii]

Nope. It will last one day and 1 round/level
Thank you. I was just thinking about this, and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't be interpreted the same way Maximize + Extend is, where the two feats are processed separately.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How?

Take 4 levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon (PGtF).


At 4th level, the spellguard of Silverymoon may cast any personal-range defensive arcane spell on another character with a touch. For this purpose, a defensive spell is one that improves AC, increases a saving throw modifier, or grants additional hit points (either by healing wounds or by bestowing temporary hit points).


Transcend mortality was created as a last-ditch effort, a spell to use when all other options have failed. For the duration of the spell, you are all but indestructible. You gain the following benefits:
...
+10 enhancement bonus on all saving throws.
...
Presto, no-save, unpreventable Disintigrate as a touch attack. Though considering it's a 9th level spell and you still need to hit i don't think it's too powerful.

[Darrin]

My Onnedad Kairdwen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753375&postcount=323) build in Iron Chef LVIII might be worth a look. She uses Chameleon casting with Improved Sigil/Sanctum/Earth/Heighten Spell shenanigans to get 9th level spells, then uses Spellsword's Channel Spell to circumvent the "Target:" and "Range:" limitations of certain spells. Her signature "Finishing Move" is channeling two spells into her target: transcend mortality + death throes. Her opponent gets one GLORIOUS round to enjoy their invincibility, and then *KABOOM*.

Unless she's packing celerity, she has to wait until her next turn to dismiss her own spell. But if she's worried about giving her opponent another round to wiggle out of the effect or put her down, she can make the second channeled spell lesser celerity (they get one GLORIOUS move action, and then spend the last 6 seconds of their life dazed and unable to act). She can also end the transcend mortality with a dispel magic or dispelling touch, both of which auto-succeed against her own spells. But this is not nearly as dramatic as the death throes.

(If the spell slot shenanigans don't work for you, she has other tricks, such as channeling aquatic escape and lesser spider form.)

More recently, I realized there may be a better combo. One of the problems with Spellsword is you only get a limited number of Channel Spells per day. But Ordained Champion doesn't have any daily limitations. Figure out how to fit three levels of that into a Wu-Jen build and still get 9th level spells (the Southern Magician feat springs to mind), and you could channel as many transcend mortality spells as you have spell slots/scrolls/staves/etc.

Wu Jen 4/Ordained Champion 3/Wu Jen +13 might work for that, taking Weapon Focus and Southern Magician at 1st/3rd.

[Chronos]

Another good trick with Transcend Mortality is the spell Pact of Return, from Heroes of Horror (you can get it as a Wu Jen via Arcane Disciple: spite domain). The spell lets you state a set of circumstances that you expect might kill you. If that set of circumstances does in fact kill you, it instantly returns you to life, like Resurrection, without level loss. So you just set your expected circumstance as "I expect to die from Transcend Mortality wearing off".

[Rebel7284]

There are a few other class features that bring you back to life automatically. Telflamar Shadowlord get a reflex save to reform later and Sand Shaper can be buried in an arid environment and come back that way.

[Darrin]

Oh, and I forgot: Greater Glyph Seal (4000 GP, MIC) and Skull Talisman (Frostburn) can be used to re-target Range: Personal spells.

[ShurikVch]

Presto, no-save, unpreventable Disintigrate as a touch attack. Though considering it's a 9th level spell and you still need to hit i don't think it's too powerful.Cool thing! It can kill Elder Evil with no save! :smallsmile:

Another good trick with Transcend Mortality is the spell Pact of Return, from Heroes of Horror (you can get it as a Wu Jen via Arcane Disciple: spite domain). The spell lets you state a set of circumstances that you expect might kill you. If that set of circumstances does in fact kill you, it instantly returns you to life, like Resurrection, without level loss. So you just set your expected circumstance as "I expect to die from Transcend Mortality wearing off".Nice find! I know only about the Death Pact, which is 1 level higher, and cause -2 Con. (But, on the other hand, Pact of Return have limited duration...)

There are a few other class features that bring you back to life automatically. Telflamar Shadowlord get a reflex save to reform later and Sand Shaper can be buried in an arid environment and come back that way.Shadowlord shouldn't work, because death is not from hp loss; Sand Shaper looks like OK

[Chronos]

Sand Shaper is suboptimal for this, though, since it says "as Resurrection", and doesn't give an exception to the level loss from coming back.

[Story]

Thank you. I was just thinking about this, and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't be interpreted the same way Maximize + Extend is, where the two feats are processed separately.

IIRC The general rule is that you can apply the metamagic effects in whichever order you want and Maximize + Empowered has a specific rule that overrides that. Of course Persist isn't core so no body ever thought to make a rule for it.

[Chronos]

That's no excuse. Obviously the rule wouldn't be included in core, but whoever wrote the Persist Spell feat should have considered the possibility that it'd be used with Extend (especially since Extend is even a prerequisite for it) and made explicit how they interact.

[ezkajii]

Isn't there a clause in the DMG about how if there are no explicit rules but there is precedence with similar situations, to rule similarly?

[ekarney]

Isn't there a clause in the DMG about how if there are no explicit rules but there is precedence with similar situations, to rule similarly?

I do know that WotC seem to have something against stacking when it comes to feats and bonuses, generally I try to avoid stacking if it's not specified if it actually stacks

[jiriku]

Nope. It will last one day and 1 round/level

This is a tired old chestnut. Ok, here is the argument.

(1) The general case is that multiple simultaneous effects are applied in whatever order you prefer. This is the general rule. Thus, by following this principle, one can increase the duration to 2 rounds/level and then to 24 hours, or to 24 hours and then to 48 hours. One of those is clearly better than the other.

(2) The counterargument is that, like the Empower and Maximize feats, metamagic effects don't stack at all, but always reference the original effect. Thus, by following this rule, the duration is 1 round/level plus 1 round/level 24 hours no matter how you slice it.

(3) The counter-counterargument is that the Empower and Maximize feats contain specific text that overrides the general rule. Other metamagic feats, such as Extend and Persistent, do not contain this specific text and therefore do not override the general rule. Therefore, argument (2) is invalid and argument (1) is sustained.

(4) The counter-counter-counterargument is that clearly the designers would like argument (2) better if we could ask them somehow and thus it should be used. However, this is a terribly weak argument, one that basically amounts to "I can't bear the idea that I might be wrong, so people in authority must agree with me because wishful thinking and therefore I'm right."

Frankly, if the issue is at all contentious at your gaming table, there are two obvious solutions which are (a) get your task done in one day and sidestep the whole argument, or (b) ask your DM to make a ruling and then abide by the ruling. Both of these solutions will work 100% of the time that they are used.

[ShurikVch]

...Wait a minute, just how will you persist a 9th level arcane spell?
Dragonwrought Kobold, Easy Metamagic every time up to 15th level, Improved Spell Capacity at 18th?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wait a minute, just how will you persist a 9th level arcane spell?
Dragonwrought Kobold, Easy Metamagic every time up to 15th level, Improved Spell Capacity at 18th?

Incantatrix most likely. There's also Anima Mage, Spelldancer, Tainted Sorcerer, casting from a staff with Metamagic Item/Metamagic Spell Trigger and Ultimate Magus with Bloodline/Legacy Champion cheese.

[Dread_Head]

Wait a minute, just how will you persist a 9th level arcane spell?
Dragonwrought Kobold, Easy Metamagic every time up to 15th level, Improved Spell Capacity at 18th?

Presumably using Spelldancer or Incantatrix?

Edit: Ninja'd

[ShurikVch]

Incantatrix most likely.What's about the Incantatrix?

There's also Anima Mage,Nice thing, I didn't know about it :smallsmile:

SpelldancerOf course, Spelldancer! I forgot about it :smallsigh:

Tainted SorcererDoesn't work, because "tainted sorcerer cannot enhance a spell to a level higher than she can cast by this means."

casting from a staff with Metamagic Item/Metamagic Spell TriggerStaff of Transcend Mortality is an [Epic] item

Ultimate Magus with Bloodline/Legacy Champion cheese. What cheese? :smallconfused:

[Chronos]

Incantatrices have two different methods for applying metamagic without raising the spell level. For one, they can apply metamagic to an ally's spell as the ally is casting it (so you'd need for the incantatrix and the wu jen to be separate characters), and for another, they can do something to a spell that's already in effect to retroactively apply a metamagic to it. The latter is the one most often used for persisting, since it only requires one character, but there's no reason either couldn't be done.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What's about the Incantatrix?
The spell has a duration so you can use Metamagic Effect after casting (DC 63). A bit on the high side, but hardly insurmountable or even especially difficult for a level 17 caster.


Doesn't work, because "tainted sorcerer cannot enhance a spell to a level higher than she can cast by this means."
Forgot about that.

Staff of Transcend Mortality is an [Epic] item
It's not. Transcend Mortality is a simple 9th level spell with no components, so the market price is 750 x 17 x 9 = 114750. Pricy, but again not unattainable for a level 17 character.
You can also save money by making the spell use more than one charge, use the Power Surge infusion, Earth Spell + Channel Charge(LEoF) or Unfettered Heroism + Wand Surge(MoE) to save on charges.

If Dragon material is allowed there's also a wizard/sorcerer ACF + feat in Dragon #338 that lets you recharge a staff with spells (one 5th level spell = one charge).


What cheese? :smallconfused:
Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting ability is normally limited to spells of half class level or lower. With Bloodlines, Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion you can get your effective Ultimate Magus level high enough to use it on 9th level spells.

[ShurikVch]

Incantatrices have two different methods for applying metamagic without raising the spell level. For one, they can apply metamagic to an ally's spell as the ally is casting it (so you'd need for the incantatrix and the wu jen to be separate characters), and for another, they can do something to a spell that's already in effect to retroactively apply a metamagic to it. The latter is the one most often used for persisting, since it only requires one character, but there's no reason either couldn't be done. Cooperative Metamagic is OK, but Metamagic Effect CF works on spell's effect (obviously). Both example spells have line "Effect:" in their statblocks; but the Transcend Mortality spell lacks it

It's not. Transcend Mortality is a simple 9th level spell I'm pretty sure: Staff of Wishes is an [Epic] item; but Wish itself is (as You said) "a simple 9th level spell". What's the difference?

[Urpriest]

I'm pretty sure: Staff of Wishes is an [Epic] item; but Wish itself is (as You said) "a simple 9th level spell". What's the difference?

Wish has components, and quite substantial ones.

[jiriku]

Wait a minute, just how will you persist a 9th level arcane spell?

I am playing a red wizard right now, so my first thought is "heighten a spell to 16th level with circle magic and then cast rary's arcane conversion to replace it with an extended persistent transcend mortality." Note that I don't assume that the caster is a wu jen -- there are a variety of methods for gaining the ability to cast a spell that is not natively on your class list.

However, that's just what comes to my mind first. As sleepy pointed out, there several other ways. I like the one about extending ultimate magus -- that's clever.

[ShurikVch]

Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting ability is normally limited to spells of half class level or lower. With Bloodlines, Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion you can get your effective Ultimate Magus level high enough to use it on 9th level spells.How you going to get Transcend Mortality pre-Epic in that build? :smallconfused:
Ultimate Magus by itself lose 3 CLs, plus one more of spontaneous caster dip...

[sleepyphoenixx]

How you going to get Transcend Mortality pre-Epic in that build? :smallconfused:
Ultimate Magus by itself lose 3 CLs, plus one more of spontaneous caster dip...

The levels that only advance one of your classes go by CL. You can have them advance your prepared casting class simply by raising the caster level of the spontaneous side, effectively getting 10/10 progression.

Wu Jen 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Legacy Champion 3/X (any full casting) 3 with any Major Bloodline works (level 17 Wu Jen casting) if you get Practiced Spellcaster for the Sorcerer side.
It is pretty high on the cheese scale though so most DM's probably won't allow it, and it also uses the interpretation that bloodlines don't count against ECL.

In short it's possible, but the other methods are a lot more clear cut and less complicated.

[jiriku]

How you going to get Transcend Mortality pre-Epic in that build? :smallconfused:
Ultimate Magus by itself lose 3 CLs, plus one more of spontaneous caster dip...

When entered and played in the expected way, sure, you'll never get there. But there are unexpected ways. I can think of two:

(1) Enter as a single-class wizard 5 with the spontaneous divination ACF. You are able to cast both prepared and spontaneous spells of up to 3rd level, so you certainly qualify. This progression loses 0 caster levels, since wizard is always your lowest-level class. This interpretation is debatable, since some feel that "spontaneous conversion" is not the same as "spontaneous casting".

(2) Enter as a wizard 4/sorcerer 1 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat applied to your sorcerer casting. Wizard is thus your spellcasting class with the lowest caster level even though you can cast higher level wizard spells than sorcerer spells. This progression loses A LOT of sorcerer casting, but loses only one level of wizard casting compared to a single-class character. This relies on a plain reading of the ultimate magus class and is definitely rules-legal.

The bigger question for me is, how to get both Persist and Extend on a spell when using the Augmented Casting feature? Augmented casting requires that the spell not be affected by any other metamagic feat. I'm not sure of the line of reasoning that would get around that restriction.

[Story]

You can always toss Extend on via metamagic rod.

[jiriku]

You can always toss Extend on via metamagic rod.

Can you? Prepared casters have to use metamagic rods during spell preparation -- so it's already on there when casting time comes.

[ShurikVch]

(1) Enter as a single-class wizard 5 with the spontaneous divination ACF. You are able to cast both prepared and spontaneous spells of up to 3rd level, so you certainly qualify. This progression loses 0 caster levels, since wizard is always your lowest-level class. This interpretation is debatable, since some feel that "spontaneous conversion" is not the same as "spontaneous casting".But there we have not a Wizard, but a Wu Jen...

(2) Enter as a wizard 4/sorcerer 1 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat applied to your sorcerer casting. Wizard is thus your spellcasting class with the lowest caster level even though you can cast higher level wizard spells than sorcerer spells. This progression loses A LOT of sorcerer casting, but loses only one level of wizard casting compared to a single-class character. This relies on a plain reading of the ultimate magus class and is definitely rules-legal.Actually, at the described UM entry point, Wizard/Sorcerer CLs are equal, and progression will be 9/8


The levels that only advance one of your classes go by CL. You can have them advance your prepared casting class simply by raising the caster level of the spontaneous side, effectively getting 10/10 progression.Nope, only 9/8

Wu Jen 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Legacy Champion 3/X (any full casting) 3 with any Major Bloodline works (level 17 Wu Jen casting) if you get Practiced Spellcaster for the Sorcerer side.How you get Spellcraft 8 at Wu Jen 3/Sorcerer 1 ? :smallconfused:

It is pretty high on the cheese scale though so most DM's probably won't allow it, and it also uses the interpretation that bloodlines don't count against ECL.Nobody understand bloodlines... :smallsigh:
Just like nobody know how to calculate LA of Symbiotic Creature...
Because it's same level of shoddy editing work :smallwink:

[Story]

Can you? Prepared casters have to use metamagic rods during spell preparation -- so it's already on there when casting time comes.

Oh wow, I didn't notice that. For some reason I always assumed the rods were used at casting time, but now that I've looked closely, I think you're right.

[jiriku]

But there we have not a Wizard, but a Wu Jen...

Shurik, we come from a different perspective than you do. Yes, transcend mortality is a wu jen spell. It is not on the wizard spell list. However, wizard is a much more powerful class than wu jen. Wizards are better than wu jens. There are many ways for a wizard to get the ability to cast that spell. They all involve a little trouble, but a wizard who takes a little trouble to learn the spell is still a lot more powerful than a wu jen of the same level. Thus, the preferred build is wizard, not wu jen. Can you do it with wu jen? Sure! Absolutely you can. But many players would prefer to do it with a wizard and that's also a valid option.


Actually, at the described UM entry point, Wizard/Sorcerer CLs are equal, and progression will be 9/8

Practiced Spellcaster increases effective caster level by up to +4. A 5th level character who is wizard 4/sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) has a caster level of 4th for wizard spells and a caster level of 5th for sorcerer spells. Ultimate magus 1 therefore buffs wizard casting. An 8th level character who is wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 3 with Practiced Spellcaster (sorc) has a caster level of 8th for wizard spells and 8th for sorcerer spells. They are tied, therefore you can choose to buff wizard casting again at ultimate magus 4. An 11th level wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 6 with PS (sorc) has caster level 12th wiz and caster level 11th sorcerer. At this point you need a second Practiced Spellcaster feat, or some other method of gaining +1 level of sorcerer casting. That is not hard to do. If you do it, then UM 7 also buffs wizard casting. The net result is that your 15th level wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 10 casts as a 14th level wizard with CL 18 and as an 8th level sorcerer with CL 19. Now, that's not the only way to do it, but if you really want to maximize your wizard casting, there you go.

The point here is that there are many ways to combine feats and classes so that prestige classes work a little differently from one character to the next. The system was built to do this -- prestige classes are intentionally made so that characters with many different class combinations can qualify for them. Ultimate magus is especially very flexible, and it combines with various feat, class, and prestige class combinations in interesting ways.

[ShurikVch]

Practiced Spellcaster increases effective caster level by up to +4. A 5th level character who is wizard 4/sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) has a caster level of 4th for wizard spells and a caster level of 5th for sorcerer spells.OK (I mixed your example with the sleepyphoenixx's one)

Ultimate magus 1 therefore buffs wizard casting. An 8th level character who is wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 3 with Practiced Spellcaster (sorc) has a caster level of 8th for wizard spells and 8th for sorcerer spells. They are tied, therefore you can choose to buff wizard casting again at ultimate magus 4.It's a bit liberal interpretation of RAW.
as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level.More strict reading may say: because none CL is lowest, none will get +1.

An 11th level wiz 4/sorc 1/UM 6 with PS (sorc) has caster level 12th wiz and caster level 11th sorcerer. At this point you need a second Practiced Spellcaster feat, or some other method of gaining +1 level of sorcerer casting. That is not hard to do.O RLY?
Please, how You will do it?
And Practiced Spellcaster feat is already applied to Sorcerer, you can't be "even more practiced" :smallamused:

[Kraken]

I'm actually curious about raising sorcerer caster level separately too. Items such as a ring of arcane might or orange ioun stone, or spells such as create magic tattoo, would seemingly apply to both, and not one or the other.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How you get Spellcraft 8 at Wu Jen 3/Sorcerer 1 ? :smallconfused:


Bloodline levels.

[ShurikVch]

Bloodline levels.Skill maximal rank limited by HD+3
(There are couple of feats which override it, but you don't get feats at 4th level)
Since bloodline levels don't give you HD, they don't count for skill rank maximum

[Pippin]

Skill maximal rank limited by HD+3
(There are couple of feats which override it, but you don't get feats at 4th level)
Since bloodline levels don't give you HD, they don't count for skill rank maximum
>Google "bloodlines 3.5"
>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
>CTRL + F "rank"


It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

[ShurikVch]

>Google "bloodlines 3.5"
>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
>CTRL + F "rank":smalleek: I'll be damned

[sleepyphoenixx]

:smalleek: I'll be damned

Yeah, bloodlines are pretty broken and also not written all that clearly, which is why they're pretty much limited to theoretical optimization imo. I certainly don't allow them when i DM and i've never played with a DM who does.

But since the thread title asks for theoretical abuse and shenanigans i figured it was worth mentioning.:smalltongue:

[Dread_Head]

It's a bit liberal interpretation of RAW. More strict reading may say: because none CL is lowest, none will get +1.


It covers this in the class description.

If all your arcane spellcasting classes have equal caster levels, you can apply this benefit to any of your existing arcane spellcasting classes.



O RLY?
Please, how You will do it?
And Practiced Spellcaster feat is already applied to Sorcerer, you can't be "even more practiced" :smallamused:

Or you play a Kobold and take the draconic resevoir feat then perform the greater draconic right of passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

[ShurikVch]

It covers this in the class description.Thanks for correction! (It will teach me to read ALL text before making assumptions...)

Or you play a Kobold and take the draconic resevoir feat then perform the greater draconic right of passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).How is it relevant? You use SLAs 3/day. How it change your Sorcerer CL?

[Chronos]

He said the greater draconic rite of passage, as detailed at that link.

There are also ways of making all of your caster levels always equal to each other, in which case Ultimate Magus would always let you choose. Master Spellthief is one such option, though it would require a one-level dip in Spellthief.

[ShurikVch]

He said the greater draconic rite of passage, as detailed at that link.Ah, I see... (Somehow, my Ctrl+F missed it)

There are also ways of making all of your caster levels always equal to each other, in which case Ultimate Magus would always let you choose. Master Spellthief is one such option, though it would require a one-level dip in Spellthief.How is it possible? Master Spellthief stack only Spellthief levels, not "any class, period"

[Doc_Maynot]

Ah, I see... (Somehow, my Ctrl+F missed it)
How is it possible? Master Spellthief stack only Spellthief levels, not "any class, period"

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

Bolded for emphasis

[ShurikVch]

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

Bolded for emphasisStill don't see it.
1 level of spellthief will add only +1

[Chronos]

Yes, the spellthief level itself only adds +1. That level is a total waste, aside from qualifying you for Master Spellthief. But suppose you're, say, a spellthief 1/ sorcerer 1/ wizard 10. What's your caster level for spellthief? It's 1 + 1 + 10, or 12. What's your caster level for sorcerer? It's the same thing, because sorcerer is also arcane. What's your CL for wizard? Again, the same.

[ShurikVch]

But suppose you're, say, a spellthief 1/ sorcerer 1/ wizard 10. What's your caster level for spellthief?Your Spellthief CL will be "-"
Spellthief doesn't cast spells until the 4th level

[Chronos]

But they nonetheless have a caster level. It's not useful for anything, but they have it.

[ShurikVch]

But they nonetheless have a caster level. It's not useful for anything, but they have it. :smallconfused: Prove it

[Nousos]

They don't have to have Spellthief CL, the Master Spellthief feat makes "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

All you need to get the feat is the steal spell class ability, and the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.

Edit-Like Chronos said, its useless, but if the lvl 1 spellthief in that example COULD cast a spellthief spell, it would be at CL 12

[DarkSonic1337]

Illumian with the Krau sigil gives you +2 caster level up to your character level. It bumps your Wizard caster level by 1 (reaching your character level), but bumps your sorcerer caster level by 2 (which would make it tied again with practiced spellcaster). This lets you chose to boost the wizard side again at ultimate magus 7

[jiriku]

Ah, I see... (Somehow, my Ctrl+F missed it)
How is it possible? Master Spellthief stack only Spellthief levels, not "any class, period"

This thread here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45421/how-are-caster-levels-determined-in-concert-with-the-feat-master-spellthief) demonstrates the line of argument used for the multiplying-stacking of caster levels with master spellthief. Personally I don't agree with it, but some people do.

Shurik, if it seems like you're running into a lot of weirdness in this thread, bear in mind that the OP asked for theoretical abuse -- tricks that are too powerful to use at a typical gaming table but technically (or arguably) rules-legal. There is a black tactica to d&d that you don't normally see used -- tricks where nonspellcasters cast spells, psionic characters get infinite power points, wizards cast every spell they know spontaneously, or spellcasters have caster levels 10x or 100x higher than their character level. Welcome to the dark side. :smallcool: