Conrad and Lily have a question.

[Marlowe]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b1.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b2.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b3.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b4.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b5.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/b6.jpg

[Douglas]

I believe the intended way to parse that clause is "(bonus or extra) attacks". So, anything that gives you a bonus attack or an extra attack doesn't work with Whirlwind Attack, but bonuses that modify your existing attacks work just fine. Weapon Finesse and Whirlwind Attack do work in combination.

[Eldaran]

I think you (or they) are misreading it. "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities" The bolded part is all one clause, you give up bonus attacks or extra attacks, not bonuses to your attack.

Edit: Spring attacked.

[Marlowe]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/extra.jpg

[AvatarVecna]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/extra.jpg

Because as we all know, the rules printed in the Player's Handbook were written the way they were to ensure that not even a single class, feat, spell, or anything else could be used in any way other than the way in which the designer intended. That's why there's never any disagreement at all between RAW and RAI. None whatsoever, no sir.

[Extra Anchovies]

The relevant sentence is this:

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
How you're supposed to parse it is as follows:

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus attacks or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
You don't forgo bonuses to hit. You forgo bonus attacks.

[Brookshw]

Technically that appears to be a valid reading of the RAW Marlowe. It's not distinct as to "[bonus] or [extra attack]" or "[bonus or extra] attack". I assume the latter is the actual situation but from strict reading it could be either. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

[Karl Aegis]

It's probably just a relic from 3.0. They had to add a line preventing you from using Great Cleave with Whirlwind Attack because there was a trick that let you take up the entire session rolling dice.

[Douglas]

I have no idea if WotC actually had an official standard regarding the use of "bonus" vs "extra", and even if they did it likely was not yet in place when Whirlwind Attack was written, in the very first book of the new edition. I expect the writer was just trying to be extra clear that, when you use Whirlwind Attack, the attacks given by the feat are the only attacks you get no matter what wording your other abilities use.

Also, if we interpret "bonus" in this case to be separate from "attack" and refer to numerical increases to your rolls, the consequences of that interpretation are a very great deal more far-reaching than merely disabling Weapon Finesse, to the point of making Whirlwind Attack effectively not function at all. Such a severe interpretation is extremely unlikely to be intended.

[nedz]

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a640/NedzNedz/GitP/CDH2_zps1d2028cf.png


Whirlwind Attack
...
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

is not in here

Now

Whirlwind Attack
...
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus, or extra attacks, granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
would be, but

Whirlwind Attack
...
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus, or extra, attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Wouldn't be

So, ..., is this a dysfunction ?

I guess it depends upon where you place the commas ?

[Marlowe]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/Fishhooks.jpg

[torrasque666]

Well think, if you can't use any sort of bonus, then that means you can't even use friggin Base Attack Bonus. So you are literally rolling a d20, and only a d20, to see if you hit.

[AvatarVecna]

Well think, if you can't use any sort of bonus, then that means you can't even use friggin Base Attack Bonus. So you are literally rolling a d20, and only a d20, to see if you hit.

regardless of whether or not it disallows applying bonuses, rather than applying bonus feats, it still only disallows such things if they were granted from other feats. BAB does not come from a feat.

[torrasque666]

regardless of whether or not it disallows applying bonuses, rather than applying bonus feats, it still only disallows such things if they were granted from other feats. BAB does not come from a feat.
Ah true. That's what I get for just posting pelmel.

[Brookshw]

The more I consider this the further convinced I am that the former reading (where bonus is distinct) is actually, thanks to bad editors probably, the correct RAW interpretation.

[Necroticplague]

The more I consider this the further convinced I am that the former reading (where bonus is distinct) is actually, thanks to bad editors probably, the correct RAW interpretation.

Likewise, thanks to how bonus is defined.

[Douglas]

regardless of whether or not it disallows applying bonuses, rather than applying bonus feats, it still only disallows such things if they were granted from other feats. BAB does not come from a feat.
Feats, spells, and abilities. BAB doesn't qualify, but Haste, Greater Heroism, and Weapon Focus all do. In fact, under this reading Whirlwind Attack turns off Dodge, Skill Focus, Inspire Competence, Divine Grace, and all sorts of other things that give bonuses to, well, anything at all. If you don't tie the word "bonus" to the word "attack" in Whirlwind Attack's text, then it categorically forfeits bonuses across the board to everything, provided only that they come from feats, spells, or abilities, leaving you with pretty much BAB, equipment, and ability scores and nothing else.

This is patently absurd and obviously not intended.

[Brookshw]

This is patently absurd and obviously not intended.

Welcome to RAW :smallwink:

Also the feat specifies you use your full base attack bonus so that stays.

[Jormengand]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/extra.jpg

So then bonus feats don't exist, because they give you more feats rather than a bonus to a pre-existing feat? :smallconfused:

[ezkajii]

It should be noted that Weapon Finesse does not grant a bonus to your attacks. Instead, it grants you the ability to swap Strength bonus for Dexterity bonus; the bonus comes from your character's ability scores, not from the feat itself.

[Menzath]

After a re-read of whirlwind attack I noticed it specifies only that you lose bonus/extra attacks from feats, spells, and abilities(class?) But has no mention of weapon properties.
Interesting.

Also what about spells or abilities that alter how your attacks hit or are resolved, like say master throwers two w/ one blow ability.
It modifies how a thrown weapon(even without being thrown) can hit more than 1 target on a single attack.

This could get interesting..

Edit: it also does not say you cannot get any extra attacks from item abilities or qualities(weapons of speed). That seems like a large oversight. Why not use a blanket term?
On a side note, a few master thrower abilities don't actually require you to throw anything. Should probably be mentioned in dysfuntions, note to self do that later.