Alter Self

[Shnigda]

Hi guys,
So I have made a wizard as a backup character for a campaign and have chosen the Otherworldly feat in order to benefit from some decent alter self forms.
However, I've been doing some searching and haven't been able to find a good thread that details good alter self forms. I know that the Xorn already, but not muxh more... If anyone could point me to a good thread or make some suggestions themselves that would be much appreciated!
My character is a grey elf who has gone through the rite of rebirth to become a dragonborn and has the outsider type from the Otherworldly feat. The character is at level 5, so can change into creatures of up to 5hd but creatures a couple of HD higher would be good as well!

[Karnith]

There are some old guides on using Alter Self; this one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811.0) includes a section on Outsider forms. Some highlights include:
Dwarf Ancestor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3), for +18 natural armor (and Large size, so effectively +17 AC)
Air Mephit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit.htm#airMephit), for a Fly speed of 60 ft. with perfect maneuverability.
Spinagon, from Fiendish Codex II p. 136, for a Fly speed of 120 ft. with average maneuverability
Advespa, from MMII pp. 67-69, for +7 natural armor, 4 claw attacks, a sting attack, and Large size (and also flight, I guess).

[Flickerdart]

The character is at level 5, so can change into creatures of up to 5hd but creatures a couple of HD higher would be good as well!
Alter Self caps out at 5HD monsters, so creatures beyond that wouldn't do you any good.

[Story]

Barring Reserves of Strength cheese of course.

[AvatarVecna]

Barring Reserves of Strength cheese of course.

I think it's generally assumed that Reserves of Strength is hiding somewhere in the build whenever anybody brings up Alter Self being used for anything useful at high levels.

[Rubik]

I think it's generally assumed that Reserves of Strength is hiding somewhere in the build whenever anybody brings up Alter Self being used for anything useful at high levels.Alter Self is actually superior to Polymorph in a few ways. Turning into a flying/swimming/burrowing form allows you to keep that movement mode for 10x as long; it's considerably superior to the Fly spell, which is a level higher! It also lets you keep your ability scores for when they're superior to those of the form you'd otherwise want. It's also a lower level spell, so you've got an extra option for your low level spell slots to keep them useful for quite awhile. Plus, the natural armor benefits for something like dwarven ancestor are surprisingly good, even later on.

[Dusk Eclipse]

At low levels it serves as a combat spell, and then at higher levels it becomes more of an utility one (not that it doesn't have tons of utility right from the start).

[Rubik]

You can also combine with Polymorph and similar spells. Want to have the abilities of a beholder in the middle of town and not want to die to all the high level characters there? Polymorph into one, then Alter Self into an elan. Indistinguishable from a human, and if you have Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer, you still have the antimagic cone and eye rays.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wouldn't that fall under this rule


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

[Rubik]

Wouldn't that fall under this ruleIs Polymorph the same spell as Alter Self? The answer to that question answers yours.

[Story]

If you Polymorph followed by Alter Self, you would explicitly keep the physical stats of the Polymorph form. not sure what else you keep off the top of my head.

If a Barbarian gets challenged to an arm wrestling contest by a scrawny human Wizard, you should be suspicious that they're secretly Draconic Polymorphed into a War Troll or something.

[Curmudgeon]

If you Polymorph followed by Alter Self, you would explicitly keep the physical stats of the Polymorph form.
And where is that explicitly stated? Alter Self explicitly says:
You retain your own ability scores. There's nothing about retaining the ability scores of some form obtained via Polymorph; you always retain your own ability scores instead.

[Segev]

An elan lacks a "central eye" and "eyestalks," so wouldn't actually retain the eyebeams and anti-magic cone of the beholder. At best, you could argue that the two human-esq eyes allow you to choose two eyebeams to keep.

What do the Otherworldly feat and this "reserves of strength" thing do? I am unfamiliar with them.


And I am once again questioning the PAO-into-beholder specifics. In particular, the Beholder's flight is listed as an (Ex) special quality as well as a movement rate. It's stated to be due to a naturally bouyant body. Does that count as a "mundane movement capabilities (such as ... flight with wings...)?" It's flight with "a naturally bouyant body," not "with wings," but...

[Segev]

There's nothing about retaining the ability scores of some form obtained via Polymorph; you always retain your own ability scores instead.

It says "retain." You don't currently have the ability scores of your "natural" form (defined here to be what you'd have with no polymorphic effects on you at all). You cannot retain what you do not have.

In context, "retain your own" is as opposed to gaining those of the target form. It is not semantically unrealistic to interpret "your own" ability scores as being whatever you have before the effect discussing whether you retain them or not is accounted for. It is semantically dubious to suggest that "retain your own" means "change them to another value based on neither the form you're leaving nor the one to which you're changing."

[Doc_Maynot]

What do the Otherworldly feat and this "reserves of strength" thing do? I am unfamiliar with them.


Otherworldy makes your type Outsider (Native)
Reserves of Strength lets you "exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell"

Both useful with Alter Self (Otherworldly giving you access to Outsider forms, and Reserves of Strength allowing you to crack that 5HD cap.

[Segev]

o_O You can gain the Outsider type for just a FEAT? Wow.

[Rubik]

o_O You can gain the Outsider type for just a FEAT? Wow.Outsider (Native), Dragon (Kobold), and Humanoid (Human), as far as I recall.

[Curmudgeon]

It says "retain." You don't currently have the ability scores of your "natural" form (defined here to be what you'd have with no polymorphic effects on you at all). You cannot retain what you do not have.

In context, "retain your own" is as opposed to gaining those of the target form.
I disagree. If they had meant to retain your current ability scores, it would have been just that easy to state. Instead, you retain your own ability scores, which are the scores you intrinsically have. Just step into a dead magic zone if you have any doubt about what your own ("of, relating to, or belonging to oneself") ability scores are, as opposed to those you've borrowed.

[Segev]

I disagree. If they had meant to retain your current ability scores, it would have been just that easy to state. Instead, you retain your own ability scores, which are the scores you intrinsically have. Just step into a dead magic zone if you have any doubt about what your own ("of, relating to, or belonging to oneself") ability scores are, as opposed to those you've borrowed.

Except that you cannot "retain" something you do not currently have.

If I have an umbrella, and my friend has a sun hat, and we decide to trade them for the duration of the vacations we're going on (because he's going to Seattle and I'm going to Arizona), I only temporarily do not have my umbrella. I will get it back when we both return and trade back. However, if I get to Arizona and somebody offers me some sun screen, telling me I will "retain my own" protection from the sun, he is not lying just because my umbrella won't magically return to my hand to provide shade. I retain the hat that I have borrowed. It is, in fact, impossible for me to "retain" my umbrella when I do not currently have it.

You do not, while under a polymorph effect, have the stats your native form possesses. You have those of your borrowed form. You can, upon assuming a new form, either gain the new form's stats or retain the stats you have. You cannot "retain" stats you do not have.

In context, the statement is quite clear. It requires a deliberate disregard of semantics and of the meaning of the verb used to get "your native form's stats are restored if you weren't in your native form." "Your own" stats right now are the ones you happen to have. Just as "my own" protection from the sun is the borrowed sun hat.

I do see your point, but it is just too finely parsed, too ignorant of the context, to be useful.

You're focusing on the word "own," while I'm focusing on "retain," and both cannot, in a vacuum, be satisfied in the situation described. We must look to context. The context nowhere indicates that the intent is to call back to a form you are not currently in, whereas it quite clearly illustrates that it is considering only two forms: current and target. Thus, "retain your own," in context, means "retain your current," not "regain your own." There is no way to read the context of the spell and see "regain" as being indicated. On the other hand, "your own" can refere to what you currently have in common parlance.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I think Segev makes a good point. To amplify it: We should remember that the rule books are, primarily, written for simple cases. These optimization-heavy forums explore the far end of what the rules are supposed to cover (and sometimes beyond), not the mainstream use cases.

A chain of transformations is definitely not mainstream, it is an edge case. When a statement in a spell description means different things for the simple case and the edge case, it seems only sensible to let the meaning for the simple case take precedence.

[Psyren]

o_O You can gain the Outsider type for just a FEAT? Wow.

Note that you have to be a specific race to take it.

[Segev]

Note that you have to be a specific race to take it.

Ah, that makes more sense, then.