Erfworld thread V: Baddie Will Not Post In Thread [Archive]

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-20, 06:23 AM

Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world (or to the Erfworlders - Stupid World) references and puns, gaming homages and glory, fate and chance.

Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)
Erfworld thread IV: In Memory of King Saline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374757-Erfworld-thread-IV-In-memory-of-King-Saline)

Currently we are on page 66 of Book 3, and update ?? of the Dylan & Thomas text story!

Also, please SPOILER your comments about an update that has occurred within a day or two, or at least until someone posts that there is a new update, so someone doesn't get a spoiled page.

Killer Angel

2015-05-20, 06:50 AM

Hello, new thread!

In the end, you have a nice name, but nonetheless you should feel bad for Vinny... :smalltongue:

HandofShadows

2015-05-20, 07:02 AM

Poor Vinny. Maybe next time you will have a thread named for you.

Narkis

2015-05-20, 07:12 AM

Dammit, Vinnie will never get a thread named after him now.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-20, 07:14 AM

That better? :smalltongue:

Narkis

2015-05-20, 07:17 AM

Err, kinda? :smalltongue:

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-20, 07:29 AM

You know..in retrospect.

Thread VI could have been called Erfworld Tread VI(nny)

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-20, 07:33 AM

You know..in retrospect.

Thread VI could have been called Erfworld Tread VI(nny)

Still can! Vinny Impossible. :smallcool:

Killer Angel

2015-05-20, 07:37 AM

You know..in retrospect.

Thread VI could have been called Erfworld Tread VI(nny)

Or "VI is for VINNY!" :smallwink:

Lizard Lord

2015-05-21, 01:58 AM

Kantaki

2015-05-21, 05:43 AM

And again no Dylan & Thomas. A shame, those short stories are interesting. I like learning more about Erfworld and its rules.

Killer Angel

2015-05-21, 06:23 AM

And again no Dylan & Thomas. A shame, those short stories are interesting. I like learning more about Erfworld and its rules.

At least, there's the ending of The Siege of Palingrad fanfic. Interesting theory in it... I wonder if it will be included officially in Erfworld.

-D-

2015-05-21, 07:00 AM

There is no new page

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-21, 07:06 AM

There is no new page

:smallmad:

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-21, 07:35 AM

Why is it so important that Vinny have a thread named after him? I mean, sure, he is a cool character and all. But the only other character to get a thread named after him never actually appears in the comics.

Because he is awesome..also the last thread was a reference to a guy who was mentioned only a few times in passing.

It is an Erfworld thread..we need to have all the puns.

-D-

2015-05-21, 08:43 AM

:smallmad:
There is no spoiler. :smallwink:

Kantaki

2015-05-21, 09:08 AM

There is no spoiler. :smallwink:

You my friend are an epic-level troll.:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Anyway any bets where the next update will take us? MK, Faq, Spacerock, Charlie? Some other location? I hope we stay on the Great Minds plot for a while. There are several interesting things going on. What has Bunnie done? Will she help Parson? What was his plan again?

-D-

2015-05-21, 09:56 AM

You my friend are an epic-level troll.:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Why thank you. I like to think of myself as more of a Gadfly. I do like how I weaved several layers of trolling into that sentence.

Anyway any bets where the next update will take us? MK, Faq, Spacerock, Charlie? Some other location? I hope we stay on the Great Minds plot for a while. There are several interesting things going on. What has Bunnie done? Will she help Parson? What was his plan again?
My bet - the page ends with reveal that Parson i.e. Gobwin Knob is calling her in. That's my guess. To maximize cliffhanger potential..

Kantaki

2015-05-22, 08:08 AM

That went well. Parson really should teach his buddies from Gobwin Knob how to make friends.:smallbiggrin: But he makes a good Point. It is better when the scariest Player on the table is not your enemy. And that last sentence could be a huge incentive for Bunny.

Gez

2015-05-22, 08:28 AM

omages

homages

It has already lost one 'm' going from French to English, let it keep its 'h'.

Did you know? 'Homage' comes from French 'hommage' which derives from 'homme', meaning 'man'. A vassal would present his liege with the troops he would contribute to his liege's service, and this was the hommage. The meaning then changed into any token expression of respect instead of a contribution to military power, and now it has come to qualify blatant plagiarism :p

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-22, 11:34 AM

Kantaki

2015-05-22, 02:09 PM

Yes, that's one heck of a carrot for Bunny.

Lets hope so. Depending on what happened in the past it might make things worse. Unless you meant the part about fighting Charlie. With that Parson can get everyone on Erf.

Killer Angel

2015-05-22, 03:48 PM

Yes, that's one heck of a carrot for Bunny.

That was the plan, wasn't it?

guttering flame

2015-05-22, 04:22 PM

Is Bunny goading Parson into offing her king?

-D-

2015-05-22, 04:54 PM

Is Bunny goading Parson into offing her king?
Twas not the impression I had.

She seems crossed at Parson. Also how does she know about Parson getting into enemy portals? Did Ben blabb?

Aquillion

2015-05-23, 01:08 AM

Twas not the impression I had.

She seems crossed at Parson. Also how does she know about Parson getting into enemy portals? Did Ben blabbed?It's not a secret (everyone in the MK saw it). While she doesn't visit the MK herself, presumably word spread very quickly among GK's enemies, since it's something vital for all of them to know.

Douglas

2015-05-23, 03:10 AM

To be fair, Parson did at least secure the other end of the portal through more conventional means before going through it.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-23, 07:20 AM

To be fair, Parson did at least secure the other end of the portal through more conventional means before going through it.

However, Parson did bring in corpses had them decrypted and effectively brought in a military force into the MK.

aaaannnndddd he sent in a Tiny Golem through Charlie's portal..even if that did backfire.

Kantaki

2015-05-23, 07:30 AM

However, Parson did bring in corpses had them decrypted and effectively brought in a military force into the MK.

aaaannnndddd he sent in a Tiny Golem through Charlie's portal..even if that did backfire.

But securing the Portal from the MK-side is only reasonable since only a little while ago a City was invaded through one, meaning that the Magic Kingdom can't guarantee its own neutrality.

I can't say anything to justify the Golem. Only that the "don't cross the Portal of an other Side" was already broken.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-23, 05:54 PM

Yeah, there are days I wonder if Parson's Fate of 'breaking Erfworld' is going to come about because he uses one exploit too many and the whole place crumbles to dust.

Lizard Lord

2015-05-23, 08:44 PM

The thing to remember is that this is not Parson's world and as such he sees no reason in following their rules. He does still have his own (albiet short list) of rules that he follows. The "order a unit to have sex with you" thing seems to be no big deal with other Erfworlders but to us, and thus to Parson, it is rape. As such Parson will not do it. To him that is far more dishonorable than anything he has done so far.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-23, 10:25 PM

But securing the Portal from the MK-side is only reasonable since only a little while ago a City was invaded through one, meaning that the Magic Kingdom can't guarantee its own neutrality.

I can't say anything to justify the Golem. Only that the "don't cross the Portal of an other Side" was already broken.

Actually the "Neutrality" technically was not broken, GK was the capital..Parson wen through the GK portal.

Then GK's...Capital switched to Space Rock..and Parson went back through his sides portal.

Mind you this is not at ALL in the spirit of the law, but it is right down to the letter, he went through no portal that his side controlled.

Kornaki

2015-05-23, 11:17 PM

Actually the "Neutrality" technically was not broken, GK was the capital..Parson wen through the GK portal.

Then GK's...Capital switched to Space Rock..and Parson went back through his sides portal.

Mind you this is not at ALL in the spirit of the law, but it is right down to the letter, he went through no portal that his side controlled.

You aren't remembering it right. Parson passes through Jetstone's portal, then Jetstone's capital switches and Parson is trapped in Space Rock. Then GK took the city, switched capitals and the portal re-opened.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-23, 11:31 PM

You aren't remembering it right. Parson passes through Jetstone's portal, then Jetstone's capital switches and Parson is trapped in Space Rock. Then GK took the city, switched capitals and the portal re-opened.

Oh right well, I would say that if you lose control of your Portal, you deserve what comes through it.

Kornaki

2015-05-24, 09:14 AM

Oh right well, I would say that if you lose control of your Portal, you deserve what comes through it.

But the mancers of the Magic Kingdom think otherwise. There's no gray line about who controls a portal, the side that controls the city controls the portal.

Kantaki

2015-05-24, 09:20 AM

But the mancers of the Magic Kingdom think otherwise. There's no gray line about who controls a portal, the side that controls the city controls the portal.

But they failed to enforce this rule during the attack on Spacerock. Thus the MK is not neutral anymore and Gobwin Knob has every right to take measures to defend their Portal.

NEO|Phyte

2015-05-24, 09:25 AM

Oh right well, I would say that if you lose control of your Portal, you deserve what comes through it.

The problem with this is that a given side has essentially no way to control their portal from the MK side. Casters aren't common enough to leave them stationed in the magic kingdom to keep people out, much less risk them on a one-unit capital assault. Once upon a time it was probably a thing, and presumably it destabilized the hell out of the MK, given how they view it in current turns. So it became taboo, banned, enforced by the neutral casters. If any side has been crazy enough to try it since then, we haven't heard of it. Until Parson, at least.

Radar

2015-05-24, 10:05 AM

But they failed to enforce this rule during the attack on Spacerock. Thus the MK is not neutral anymore and Gobwin Knob has every right to take measures to defend their Portal.
But Gobwin Knob is The side that willingly broke the neutrality, so introducing regular army to MK is like adding an insult to injury. It's like banning people from the streets, because they are hit by cars too often. It's like taking away personal rights after a successful regicide, since clearly the authorities aren't safe enough.

Kantaki

2015-05-24, 10:26 AM

But Gobwin Knob is The side that willingly broke the neutrality, so introducing regular army to MK is like adding an insult to injury. It's like banning people from the streets, because they are hit by cars too often. It's like taking away personal rights after a successful regicide, since clearly the authorities aren't safe enough.

And your point is? That Parson is the one who proved that MK can't secure their so called neutrality doesn't mean that he can't take measures to protect his Side from attacks the Magic Kingdom obviously cannot stop. Sure it is morally questionable but that matters little in a world that knows only war.

Kornaki

2015-05-24, 11:02 AM

And your point is? That Parson is the one who proved that MK can't secure their so called neutrality doesn't mean that he can't take measures to protect his Side from attacks the Magic Kingdom obviously cannot stop. Sure it is morally questionable but that matters little in a world that knows only war.

It matters a lot if the question is 'why does everyone on Erf hate me?' And as you said, the whole world knows only war, so being hated by everyone is possibly worse than on Earth.

Kantaki

2015-05-24, 11:17 AM

It matters a lot if the question is 'why does everyone on Erf hate me?' And as you said, the whole world knows only war, so being hated by everyone is possibly worse than on Earth.

But Gobwin Knob and by extension Parson were already hated by a large chunk of Erfworld before he pulled this particular stunt. And if every single guy in the neighborhood wants you dead why should you play by their rules? Considering that his Side has almost no allies, thanks to the antics of his "friends", Parson has little choice but using every ruthless and underhanded tactic nessecary. Sure some of those are a factor in Gobwin Knobs current popularity but most of it is the fault of Stanley, Wanda and Ansom.

Porthos

2015-05-24, 11:48 AM

The point is, if one is suddenly going to change tactics and make friends, it's immeasurably more difficult if you metaphorically spat in their faces for a long time beforehand. As Parson himself noted when talking about being brash and loud in a "multiplayer environment".

Some won't care as much (see the Nixon clone whose name escapes me at the moment). Some? Very much so, it appears.

Part of "winning" can be not just "playing the rules" but "playing the room". That is, sure, know what the rules are so you can exploit them. But also know the quirks and habits of your opponents so one can exploit those as well. Running around like a bull in a antique shop might feel satisfactory. Maybe even necessary at the time. But sometimes acting like that might boop one down the road.

Parson is finding out that his exploits and general ruthless at times nature can indeed have consequences. That he recognizes that and is trying to mitigate it when necessary is a good tactic on his part.

To put all of this another way, Parson is finding out that Warring is easy; it's Diplomacy that's hard. :smallwink:

Aquillion

2015-05-24, 12:27 PM

The thing to remember is that this is not Parson's world and as such he sees no reason in following their rules. He does still have his own (albiet short list) of rules that he follows. The "order a unit to have sex with you" thing seems to be no big deal with other ErfworldersI'm not sure about this. IIRC Maggie's reaction when the topic came up implied to me that it had happened to her and that it was a big deal to her personally.

It's just that the people affected don't usually have many options to object.

Porthos

2015-05-24, 12:50 PM

I'm not sure about this. IIRC Maggie's reaction when the topic came up implied to me that it had happened to her and that it was a big deal to her personally.

It's just that the people affected don't usually have many options to object.

I think if there's one thing the prose entries have shown its that the characters of Erfworld do indeed have private opinions on things, even if they are ordered to do it. It's a bit of a deconstruction of the idea of ordering units about in a (c)RPG. The deconstruction being, "Just what are their feelings on the matter? Especially the more dodgy things that can come up in a game".

The handwave is the hidden loyalty stat which can very much be affected by this.

Getting back to Parson, his hangup wasn't just the idea of rape, which was stomach turning enough, but the actual power imbalance at play. In his mind it was more like a boss having sex with a co-worker (which is... controversial in some quarters and probably shouldn't be examined in this thread :smallwink:) and he just didn't like the idea. How Parson deals with those feelings is up to him, of course. But I suspect a large part of it is going to be his ongoing understanding that while it is very true that Erfworld Units can be compelled to do things as if they were glorified units on a board/screen and that they have (to a degree) hardcoded quirks and traits, they still have their own private dreams, desires, wants, and needs just like anyone else he used to know.

In short, they are people just like back home and not just glorified game pieces to move about.

super dark33

2015-05-25, 01:17 PM

Update

The most importent thing to take from this is
That Ansom's biker's helmet have turned into a Pickelhaube :smalltongue:

Killer Angel

2015-05-25, 03:22 PM

Update

The most importent thing to take from this is
That Ansom's biker's helmet have turned into a Pickelhaube :smalltongue:

And that's absolutely, totally cool. :smallcool:

ryuplaneswalker

2015-05-25, 03:41 PM

The problem with this is that a given side has essentially no way to control their portal from the MK side. Casters aren't common enough to leave them stationed in the magic kingdom to keep people out, much less risk them on a one-unit capital assault. Once upon a time it was probably a thing, and presumably it destabilized the hell out of the MK, given how they view it in current turns. So it became taboo, banned, enforced by the neutral casters. If any side has been crazy enough to try it since then, we haven't heard of it. Until Parson, at least.

Yes, there is a way to control what goes in and out of your portal, it is a time tested tactic that every remotely decent military force has used.

It is called Guards, we know casters are not the most sturdy of people and we know that non casters can not go through the portal, the only non caster we have seen go through it is the Green Army Man, which takes a 3 caster link to create, so unless you have an army of Casters to start pumping out Golems there has never been a remote reason to even attempt an attack through a portal, even now it really is a terrible idea to attempt an invasion from a portal. It is a wretched choke point and the only good thing that can be done with it is a suicide bombing, which is relatively pointless as the damage can repaired at the end of the Day.

The whole "neutrality" thing was never relevant from the start really.

And if we really wanna start pointing fingers, the first one should go towards The Great Minds, who created a ritual to "deal" with a side that they have a problem with. It is not very neutral to summon someone to Assassinate an Overlord.

So frankly, the MK are a bunch of snobs who are really not any better than the rest of Erfworld, so they can stuff their "rules" in their ears.

HandofShadows

2015-05-25, 03:50 PM

Update

The most importent thing to take from this is
That Ansom's biker's helmet have turned into a Pickelhaube :smalltongue:

I find it interesting that Wanda is worried about Ansom and that is being asked to lie. And that Jack knows she can look through the eyes of the Archon. If Jack knows I would think Parson would know as well. Could be wrong though.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-05-25, 06:04 PM

But Gobwin Knob and by extension Parson were already hated by a large chunk of Erfworld before he pulled this particular stunt. And if every single guy in the neighborhood wants you dead why should you play by their rules? Considering that his Side has almost no allies, thanks to the antics of his "friends", Parson has little choice but using every ruthless and underhanded tactic nessecary. Sure some of those are a factor in Gobwin Knobs current popularity but most of it is the fault of Stanley, Wanda and Ansom.

Admittedly, the major reason the outside Sides loathe them is because of the aforementioned. The reason the MK is hostile is because of primarily parson. Also, Parson has gone on record stating "I don't have a plan" (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/175), and that his primary motivation is that "I'm not gonna send people into battles that I wouldn't fight myself" (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/103). Hardly 'ruthless and underhanded'.

Though thinking about it, if they Promoted Ossomer, and then Ossomer Turned, man wouldn't that have sucked? But Parson wasn't even remotely concerned with that angle, either. Unanswered questions...

Narkis

2015-05-25, 07:33 PM

I find it interesting that Wanda is worried about Ansom and that is being asked to lie. And that Jack knows she can look through the eyes of the Archon. If Jack knows I would think Parson would know as well. Could be wrong though.

Parson knows. She asked him to get her more archons so she could do the trick again. We don't know if she told him about that specific archon though.

Kantaki

2015-05-26, 06:18 AM

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-26, 11:38 AM

That was a nice Moneymancy pun Jack made. Wonder how much chaos a Moneymancer/Foolamancer link up could cause.

Calemyr

2015-05-26, 03:57 PM

That was a nice Moneymancy pun Jack made. Wonder how much chaos a Moneymancer/Foolamancer link up could cause.

It would fail quickly. A fool and his moneymancer are soon parted.

-D-

2015-05-26, 04:10 PM

That was a nice Moneymancy pun Jack made. Wonder how much chaos a Moneymancer/Foolamancer link up could cause.
What you mean?

Wow, Ansom starts doubting himself and his worldview? And Jack seems to notice it. I hope this won't hurt Gobwin Knob too much. More importantly he wears an new helmet. The signmancy of with is not exactly good.
Having black sun also wouldn't help :P

I like how it seems Wanda is being set up for further clash with Parson. The comment about Jillian (book 2, before the battle of Jetstone, where he suggest she came for Ansom) hurt Wanda badly. Especially since Parson was right. And Wanda can't admit it.

Calemyr

2015-05-26, 04:15 PM

What you mean?

"Jetstone isn't mercenary. They fight on the principle, not the interest." 'Principal' is the amount owed, which is used to calculate interest on a loan.

Kantaki

2015-05-26, 04:46 PM

What you mean?

Having black sun also wouldn't help :P

I like how it seems Wanda is being set up for further clash with Parson. The comment about Jillian (book 2, before the battle of Jetstone, where he suggest she came for Ansom) hurt Wanda badly. Especially since Parson was right. And Wanda can't admit it.

I fear I don’t get the spoilered part.
Yes, Wanda, I wonder if she will be ultimately a greater foe to Lord Hamster than Charlie and/or possibly the Great Minds. It would be interesting if the endgame of Erfworld would be Parson and allies versus Wanda and her Decripted.

-D-

2015-05-26, 05:51 PM

I fear I don’t get the spoilered part.

http://astroinfo.astrologix.de/politik/srg/swaNazi.gif

Black sun/Swastika is a Hindu symbol appropriated by Nazi Germany.

Yes, Wanda, I wonder if she will be ultimately a greater foe to Lord Hamster than Charlie and/or possibly the Great Minds. It would be interesting if the endgame of Erfworld would be Parson and allies versus Wanda and her Decripted.
Well, he already knows that breaking link between Tool and Hero is possible.

HandofShadows

2015-05-26, 06:08 PM

Wow, Ansom starts doubting himself and his worldview? And Jack seems to notice it. I hope this won't hurt Gobwin Knob too much. More importantly he wears an new helmet. The signmancy of with is not exactly good.

It's the helmet used by German (Army, Police and Firefighters) before and during World War I. It was being phased out by the end of the war. It actually goes with GW being the "bad guys" theme it has going.

Kantaki

2015-05-26, 06:21 PM

@-D-: D’oh, That yes that would be worse. Can’t recall ever hearing that name for it trough. And a Pickelhaube is already enough to indicate a bad guy (Pickelhaube = german = evil). I mean what is the fastest way to determinate if a movie character is evil? You check if either the actor or the character is german.:smallamused: I'm allowed to make this joke I'm german.

Was there ever a case of an bond between an Arkentool and its attuned user being broken? Sure Ansom lost the Pliers but he wasn't attuned to them and he died before Wanda got them. Stanley found the Hammer, I'm not sure about Charlie and the Dish and the Shoes previous owner croaked before Judy attuned to them. Am I missing something or is that what you meant.

@HandofShadows: I got the Pickelhaube. I just didn't know the euphemism in -D-s spoiler. Believe me if I say that our schools don't let us forget about that particular period of our history.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-26, 09:17 PM

Forget being German. Of late, the truest mark of the villain is a British accent.

EnragedFilia

2015-05-26, 11:34 PM

http://astroinfo.astrologix.de/politik/srg/swaNazi.gif

Black sun/Swastika is a Hindu symbol appropriated by Nazi Germany.

I have never seen the Manji called that, and it appears the term Black Sun refers to a much more obscure symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(occult_symbol)).

-D-

2015-05-29, 07:46 AM

@EngragedFilia: Hm, you might be right. I was sure they referred to swastika as black sun somewhere. Still. Even if he wore it, it would be quite ominous!

---------------------

If anyone that wishes to tell me Charlie is good to his Archons and his Archons aren't brainwashed puppets, now is time to tell me.

Kantaki

2015-05-29, 08:11 AM

If anyone that wishes to tell me Charlie is good to his Archons and his Archons aren't brainwashed puppets, now is time to tell me.

Well, until today I would have said Charlie (and his Side) isn't evil. This update changed my mind. I mean what the Archons do there is rather pointless and sadistic. There is no good reason to put a bag over her head or to leave her in the rain. Or to destroy the uniform for that matter. So no I can't say Charlescomm isn't a evil brainwashing cult.

Ravenlord

2015-05-29, 08:22 AM

How does brainwashing even work in a world where but a select few (barbarians and rulers) have free will in the first place?

Quild

2015-05-29, 08:35 AM

Well, until today I would have said Charlie (and his Side) isn't evil.

Well, this specific page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/177) was a strong hint to me.

Charlie takes the appearances of:
Palpatine
Van Doom
Dr. Gero
Agent Smith
General Zod
Khan
The Joker

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-29, 08:41 AM

Are we talking about the current strip without spoilers again guys? I haven't seen it yet so I'm not sure, but please guys, make sure that happens.

-D-

2015-05-29, 09:16 AM

Thought redacted.

HandofShadows

2015-05-29, 09:20 AM

How does brainwashing even work in a world where but a select few (barbarians and rulers) have free will in the first place?

You can still turn (torture) captured units to change sides. Jillian's Chief Warlord is a captured unit that turned.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-29, 09:29 AM

If this spoils anything. I can only say, Christ came back.

It's from book 2 when Charlie talks to Dittomanced Slately. That's like 1-2 years ago?

Ooops, I didn't mean to quote Quild, but no I meant current strip stuff, not stuff from awhile ago. Just checking to make sure, because I wasn't sure what the actual strip was.

As for the strip itself, strip is the appropriate word...wow.

DavidSh

2015-05-29, 10:44 AM

Not sure about the spoiler rules, but I caught a reference to a musical here.

From Bye Bye Birdie:

We love you Conrad
Oh, yes we do
We love you Conrad
And we will be true.

When you're not near us
We're blue.
Oh, Conrad, we love you!

The Glyphstone

2015-05-29, 11:10 AM

smuchmuch

2015-05-29, 12:30 PM

Well, until today I would have said Charlie (and his Side) isn't evil. This update changed my mind.

Yes, torture and brainwashing, no one in Gowin Knob would ever do that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0030.html). With a certain talent to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0024.html)

(Seriously if there's a 'good' side in Erfworld compared to the 'evil' ones, someone show it to me)

Amidst the torture, humiliation, and brainwashing, the artist was careful to show that Archons wear thong-style panties. Why was this a key detail we needed to know?

It's not ? What you describe is litteraly a tiny detail barely visible that I honnestly would have never have noticed without your comment. It's hardly 'carefully' showed and not particulary emphasised in any way.

No offense but, while the Archons have been used as fanservice in the past, here the fact you imediatly noticed such a small thing and found it 'disproportionately disturbing' strikes me as more telling about you and the issues you are sensitive about than the comic and it's author.

NEO|Phyte

2015-05-29, 12:51 PM

The Glyphstone

2015-05-29, 01:03 PM

Yes, torture and brainwashing, no one in Gowin Knob would ever do that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0030.html). With a certain talent to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0024.html)

(Seriously if there's a 'good' side in Erfworld compared to the 'evil' ones, someone show it to me)

It's not ? What you describe is litteraly a tiny detail barely visible that I honnestly would have never have noticed without your comment. It's hardly 'carefully' showed and not particulary emphasised in any way.

No offense but, while the Archons have been used as fanservice in the past, here the fact you imediatly noticed such a small thing and found it 'disproportionately disturbing' strikes me as more telling about you and the issues you are sensitive about than the comic and it's author.

I find this quite unfair and more than a bit judgmental, actually, considering I never said I 'immediately' noticed it - it just stood out at first as a tiny bit of red color, and I only realized what that was after looking more closely, so what 'issues' you think I'm sensitive about are a mystery - not to mention that I specifically said 'artist', not 'author'.

The rest of your post, though, is just proving my point. It is small and subtle, but the opening in the grasping arms and hands surrounding her is also small, positioned to show that, so it can only be deliberate. It's fanservice in the middle of a brutal torture scene, which I find incredibly out of place and yes, disturbing. There's no comparison to Wanda and Jillian's dysfuntional BDSM dynamic, this is just uni-directional sadism and cruelty, fanservice has no place in the moment.

Killer Angel

2015-05-29, 01:34 PM

This world needs Parson. And a lot of cleaning.

Well, until today I would have said Charlie (and his Side) isn't evil.

The way he follows contracts to the letter, abusing them in his favour and twisting their spirit, was surely a sign of a serious lack of moral.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-29, 01:41 PM

Charlie is Lawful Evil. His minions, not so Lawful.

Killer Angel

2015-05-29, 01:42 PM

Charlie is Lawful Evil. His minions, not so Lawful.

Speaking of contracts, fine prints and Charlie... there's a reason it is said that devil is in the details.

Jasdoif

2015-05-29, 01:48 PM

The rest of your post, though, is just proving my point. It is small and subtle, but the opening in the grasping arms and hands surrounding her is also small, positioned to show that, so it can only be deliberate. It's fanservice in the middle of a brutal torture scene, which I find incredibly out of place and yes, disturbing. There's no comparison to Wanda and Jillian's dysfuntional BDSM dynamic, this is just uni-directional sadism and cruelty, fanservice has no place in the moment.Seeing as one of those arms is precisely angled to cover where her breasts would be, I'm not sure "fanservice" is the fairest description, here.

AgentPaper

2015-05-29, 01:54 PM

I find this quite unfair and more than a bit judgmental, actually, considering I never said I 'immediately' noticed it - it just stood out at first as a tiny bit of red color, and I only realized what that was after looking more closely, so what 'issues' you think I'm sensitive about are a mystery - not to mention that I specifically said 'artist', not 'author'.

The rest of your post, though, is just proving my point. It is small and subtle, but the opening in the grasping arms and hands surrounding her is also small, positioned to show that, so it can only be deliberate. It's fanservice in the middle of a brutal torture scene, which I find incredibly out of place and yes, disturbing. There's no comparison to Wanda and Jillian's dysfuntional BDSM dynamic, this is just uni-directional sadism and cruelty, fanservice has no place in the moment.

Calling it "fanservice" is a bit much. You can see exactly enough to know that she's wearing a thong, without actually seeing the parts that might make seeing someone in a thong exciting. To me, it looks like they were specifically showing that the other Archons were stripping her naked, without actually showing any actual nudity. If they had covered the area you are talking about, all we'd see is her head.

So, no I don't think this is the artist trying to show fanservice in an inappropriate scene, though I can see why you might have thought so. The line is definitely very thin when it comes to this kind of content.

Kantaki

2015-05-29, 02:26 PM

If I may rephrase my earlier statement: Until now I wouldn't have pegged Charlie/ his Side as any more evil than the other Players on Erfworld but todays Update changed my mind. While other Sides are willing to use torture and other nasty means as well they usually have a reason to do so. What the Archons do there seems pointless and petty to me.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-29, 04:01 PM

Calling it "fanservice" is a bit much. You can see exactly enough to know that she's wearing a thong, without actually seeing the parts that might make seeing someone in a thong exciting. To me, it looks like they were specifically showing that the other Archons were stripping her naked, without actually showing any actual nudity. If they had covered the area you are talking about, all we'd see is her head.

So, no I don't think this is the artist trying to show fanservice in an inappropriate scene, though I can see why you might have thought so. The line is definitely very thin when it comes to this kind of content.

Fair enough. It still weirds me out a little to have these two things juxtaposed, and the shreds of red dress being torn away made it clear they were tearing off her uniform without needing to see her underwear, but that makes good sense as to the 'why'.

If I may rephrase my earlier statement: Until now I wouldn't have pegged Charlie/ his Side as any more evil than the other Players on Erfworld but todays Update changed my mind. While other Sides are willing to use torture and other nasty means as well they usually have a reason to do so. What the Archons do there seems pointless and petty to me.

Petty, definitely. Pointless, not so much. From an in-universe perspective, that sort of brutality is a pretty classic means of violent brainwashing/conversion; we see isolation/disorientation (the bag), humiliation/destruction of barriers (the stripping), the breaking of will (bruises and cuts, and left shackled and hooded in the rain), and the beginning of the conversion effort itself (the singing, from inside a warm and dry tent in juxtaposition to the miserable exterior). From an out-of-universe perspective, it shows us the dark side of the Archon's devotion to Charlie...historically, there are few things more savage or brutal than how a cult of personality/other group of fanatics treats 'deserters' from its ranks who have broken faith with their cause. The fact that this archon did not switch sides willingly in the first place is irrelevant to them...she is a traitor to literally everything that their entire world is set up to support and reinforce.

Chromascope3D

2015-05-29, 04:20 PM

Jasdoif

2015-05-29, 04:29 PM

Pretty sure it's the Arkendish that allows Charlie to ally with Archons, isn't it? Being that they're intelligent beings, I can only imagine that that sort of control would take the form of brainwashing. Still gross, though. :/"Ally"? The archons are Charlescomm units, the capital produces them (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/25).

Odds seem good that the Arkendish gives him the ability to manipulate the natural thinkamancies of Obedience and Loyalty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/94), though.

Chromascope3D

2015-05-29, 04:41 PM

"Ally"? The archons are Charlescomm units, the capital produces them (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/25).

Odds seem good that the Arkendish gives him the ability to manipulate the natural thinkamancies of Obedience and Loyalty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/94), though.

Ah, alright, thanks for the correction. I thought they might be some form of natural ally, but it's been a while since I archive binged. Still, I have a feeling that producing archons is tied to the Dish somehow, given that two of the other Tools allow for special unit creation/control as well, and no one else is known to be able to make archons.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-29, 04:48 PM

Archons do pop in the wild on occasion, if I'm remembering one of the Klog updates right.

Anyway, it isn't probative that all Archons wear thongs. We know that this unit, with a specialty in seduction, does. We also know this unit is a devoted slave to Wanda, who we've all seen wears much worse when she chooses. Really, Wanda is at least sixteen flavors of screwed up.

Lethologica

2015-05-29, 04:56 PM

Per the wiki, it is known that other sides produce archons, but not which other sides.

Yanagi

2015-05-29, 08:21 PM

So after this update it occurs to me that maybe "Charlie" is a Manson Family reference as well as a Charlie's Angels reference.

EnragedFilia

2015-05-29, 09:30 PM

So after this update it occurs to me that maybe "Charlie" is a Manson Family reference as well as a Charlie's Angels reference.

He's already made his name into a Street Fighter reference, too, so that doesn't seem at all unlikely.

With regards to Lilith's raiment, I would like to point out that it's also possible that the detail in question may also be a result of her being a decrypted archon of Gobwin Knob, several of which have previously been demonstrated to be willing and apparently eager to 'form a flash mob', something which non-decrypted archons have yet to do, and something which that particular article might have at least some bearing upon. So fanservice or no, there are multiple possible ways it could be plot-relevant.

On other topics, I got the Bye Bye Birdie chant (having seen the movie years ago and the play just a couple weeks ago, coincidentally) and the Abu Gharib pose, but what was the first half of what they're singing a reference to? And are there any other references that I'm missing?

guttering flame

2015-05-29, 11:44 PM

Are we sure this is Charlie and not Archons being Archons? This scene gave a bitchy sorority steriotype vybe which kind of fits the Archons.

Legato Endless

2015-05-30, 12:39 AM

If it isn't Charlie ordered, it's certainly allowed.

Even if we assume Charlie might not know about something like this happening, which is incredibly unlikely, Archons have clear rules for when and where they are and aren't allowed to exceed their orders.

This is a standard grab bag of conditioning techniques. Horrifically evil yes, but not petty or spontaneous. This is just something else the Archons have been prepped for.

Godskook

2015-05-30, 01:29 AM

One tiny thing I noticed that was disproportionately disturbing.

Amidst the torture, humiliation, and brainwashing, the artist was careful to show that Archons wear thong-style panties. Why was this a key detail we needed to know?

It took me 3-5 passes of very intentionally looking for what you're talking about to even find it, and it definitely doesn't stand out. Although honestly, even if they had showed that Archon fully naked, it wouldn't have really felt fanservicey to me unless there was something more to it than that. Amistad didn't suddenly feel like a porno despite all the nudity, and I don't really see why this comic would be held to a different standard on that front.

No offense but, while the Archons have been used as fanservice in the past, here the fact you imediatly noticed such a small thing and found it 'disproportionately disturbing' strikes me as more telling about you and the issues you are sensitive about than the comic and it's author.

I liken psychoanalysis to brain surgery, and in a lot of ways, I feel the metaphor is an important one. Both require precision, planning, intention, and in any reasonable setting, permission. What you just said is the psychoanalytical equivalent of performing neurosurgery with a baseball bat.

Killer Angel

2015-05-30, 05:45 AM

What you just said is the psychoanalytical equivalent of performing neurosurgery with a baseball bat.

Its the danger of performing neurosurgey if you're not a surgeon. No way you can do it right.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-30, 11:22 AM

HandofShadows

2015-05-30, 12:24 PM

Does a lobotomy count as neurosurgery?

No, lobotomies are a form of brain/mind destruction.

smuchmuch

2015-05-30, 01:27 PM

Does a lobotomy count as neurosurgery?

Yes. A damaging, disprooved and thankfully outdated one certainly, but a neurosurgical procedure nonetheless.
Baseball bats were not involved in anyway.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-30, 02:42 PM

Possibly if you owed money to the mob, though they preferred knee surgery anyways.

EnragedFilia

2015-05-30, 03:21 PM

The statement in question was really more of a diagnostic one, so I think a more accurate analogy would be using a garden hose as a stethoscope.

-D-

2015-05-30, 07:55 PM

I liken psychoanalysis to brain surgery, and in a lot of ways, I feel the metaphor is an important one. Both require precision, planning, intention, and in any reasonable setting, permission. What you just said is the psychoanalytical equivalent of performing neurosurgery with a baseball bat.
The poster you're replying has a point. To notice such a detail, it's out of the ordinary. I don't share his convicition of mental state, but it's intriguing.

This incident, reminds me a bit how negatively my sister reacted to Mullholand Drive scene, with an older man courting a young woman as part of audition. She had some bad experience with older men and the scene felt nauseating to her.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-30, 09:33 PM

I know I never intended it to become such a major topic of discussion. But I suppose we don't really have a lot to talk about else until the next page comes up.

-D-

2015-05-31, 03:06 AM

I know I never intended it to become such a major topic of discussion. But I suppose we don't really have a lot to talk about else until the next page comes up.
We can talk about what was the point of this strip? Remind us Charlie is evil? Prepare setup for Ansom to arrive?

Killer Angel

2015-05-31, 04:22 AM

We can talk about what was the point of this strip? Remind us Charlie is evil? Prepare setup for Ansom to arrive?

Right, let's talk about the comic.
Isn't bizarre that they call "traitor" a unit that has been croaked and raised by the enemy? treason should have a different meaning...

(yeah, i know it's a weak argument)

Kantaki

2015-05-31, 06:00 AM

Right, let's talk about the comic.
Isn't bizarre that they call "traitor" a unit that has been croaked and raised by the enemy? treason should have a different meaning...

(yeah, i know it's a weak argument)

Hey, its totally her fault this happened. She got herself killed by GK and let Wanda decrypt and brainwash her. If she was truly loyal to Charlie she wouldn't have let either of those things happen, much less all of them. Especially the fact that she was turned is a grave insult to Charlescomm that she shouldn't have allowed. Thus she is a traitor.

Sarcasm aside, blaming the victims for what happened to them is unfortunately a thing that exist.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-31, 12:06 PM

And as I mentioned above, it's utterly appropriate for the cult-like mindset common to 'true believer'-style fanatics, which the Archons absolutely are.

Legato Endless

2015-05-31, 12:51 PM

You can still turn (torture) captured units to change sides. Jillian's Chief Warlord is a captured unit that turned.

Which renders his subsequent 'relationship' with her in an incredibly disturbing light. It's no wonder Charlie hired her.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-31, 02:39 PM

Turning doesn't automatically involve torture, though - we've seen one mid-battle change of side (Ossomer) simply though diplomacy. So while turning someone is going to require coercion/pressure, it's not required. I suspect doing so is likely the fastest means of successfully turning a unit, but like everything in Erfworld it probably means a tradeoff (in this case, likely low Loyalty on the part of the new unit). Duncan was Turned by Vanna the Turnamancer instead, likely explaining his high Loyalty to Jillian.

Though now that I think of it, aren't Duncan and Vanna in a relationship as well?

Squark

2015-05-31, 04:19 PM

Forecastle also gained his forces through willing turns- His seaworld units turned out of loyalty (Not sure if it would be qualified as the natural thinkamancy kind or not), while his opposite numbers on the opposing side turned on the condition that they'd never have to go to sea again.

Legato Endless

2015-05-31, 08:52 PM

Though now that I think of it, aren't Duncan and Vanna in a relationship as well?

Ah, my previous post was unclear. Yes, I meant Duncan and Vanna being in relationship was the disturbing factor, not Charlie.

Turning doesn't automatically involve torture, though - we've seen one mid-battle change of side (Ossomer) simply though diplomacy. So while turning someone is going to require coercion/pressure, it's not required. I suspect doing so is likely the fastest means of successfully turning a unit, but like everything in Erfworld it probably means a tradeoff (in this case, likely low Loyalty on the part of the new unit). Duncan was Turned by Vanna the Turnamancer instead, likely explaining his high Loyalty to Jillian.

True, but it's heavily implied it was torture in this case.

Prologue 28 of Love is a Battlefield:

That level 6 Jitterati warlord, Duncan Scone, was now her best fighter. Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-31, 09:16 PM

Aquillion

2015-05-31, 11:23 PM

Maybe. It could also mean the opposite, that Vanna takes it too seriously (and therefore it isn't fun, just disturbing.)

It could also just mean that Jillian is squicked by non-consensual torture; Vanna "doesn't know how to play right" because she's not playing at all.

Bird

2015-06-01, 12:49 AM

-D-

2015-06-01, 05:01 AM

New one (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/70) is up.

I love it.

Zhopa doesn't have the personality or charm of Bogroll, but he is the unsung hero of Erfworld. Remember when he accidentally/on purpose convinced Stanley to save Parson from the inferno?
Gummi Wums! Wild beasts of terror!

I don't believe he hailed Zhoppa just to fix a statue? Don't other trolls have Fabrication? I think this is on purpose, so they can hang out.

Radar

2015-06-01, 07:16 AM

Gummi Wums! Wild beasts of terror!

I don't believe he hailed Zhoppa just to fix a statue? Don't other trolls have Fabrication? I think this is on purpose, so they can hang out.
Let's not forget that Zhopa makes some really spiffy sandwiches - that alone makes him invaluable. Maybe he will be able to mix some interesting drinks as well?

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-01, 07:43 AM

Let's not forget that Zhopa makes some really spiffy sandwiches - that alone makes him invaluable. Maybe he will be able to mix some interesting drinks as well?

If he can not, The tower can teach him..

Yana

2015-06-01, 08:00 AM

Have we had any indication that Jed can talk to anyone besides Stanley?

turbo164

2015-06-01, 10:05 AM

Gummi Wums! Wild beasts of terror!

I don't believe he hailed Zhoppa just to fix a statue? Don't other trolls have Fabrication? I think this is on purpose, so they can hang out.

Zhoppa was also promoted to Stanley's official lackey, between the epic sandwich and epic tower climb. :smallsmile:

halfeye

2015-06-01, 10:39 AM

I saw this elsewhere, and just had to share:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGZmJ0eWwAAhptV.jpg:large

Godskook

2015-06-01, 12:45 PM

Gummi Wums! Wild beasts of terror!

I don't believe he hailed Zhoppa just to fix a statue? Don't other trolls have Fabrication? I think this is on purpose, so they can hang out.

Afaik, there are no twolls in Spacerock.

Killer Angel

2015-06-01, 01:29 PM

If he can not, The tower can teach him..

I wanna little umbrellas! :smallbiggrin:

screwtape2

2015-06-03, 07:01 AM

That's hard to argue against - but then, maybe the fact that Vanna 'didn't know how to play right' is saying she doesn't use torture,or at least not physical torture. For Jillian and her screwed up psychology, torture would be that 'right' way to 'play'.

I just take it as Vanna isn't Wanda. She wouldn't know to begin with, "prisoner is alert," or to ask, "the easy way, or the hard way," and she wouldn't know any of the familiar rituals they have performed in the past in their...play.

ObadiahtheSlim

2015-06-05, 07:33 AM

Okay that elf punchline legitimatly had me laughing. I'm glad I'm not at work today so I didn't make a fool of myself.

Magnets Arkentool? How do they work?

some guy

2015-06-05, 07:37 AM

I don't think Jed has a good influence on Stanley.

That said, it seems juggle elves can consist of every type of elf.

Kantaki

2015-06-05, 08:03 AM

Please tell me that Panel is not canon. Please tell me it is a joke. Jesters and Clowns would be better than that.

HandofShadows

2015-06-05, 08:13 AM

I wonder what Parson will think of that idea. :smalleek::smallfrown:

guttering flame

2015-06-05, 08:24 AM

Kantaki

2015-06-05, 08:31 AM

I guess city-head Jed is not all that smart. Since he's the voice of Erf I guess this shouldn't be such a surprise but after the list of his countless aspects I was expecting something else. Will these Juggle elves be more loyal that the hobgoblins? I'm thinking they'll like Charlie's jokes more than Stanley

But unless Charlie breaks the alliance with the Gobwins and Hobgobwins he can't ally with elves if I understand the rules right. And if he breaks the contracts what stops the Gobwins from returning to GK?

Killer Angel

2015-06-05, 08:46 AM

Please tell me that Panel is not canon. Please tell me it is a joke. Jesters and Clowns would be better than that.

Maybe that's the mental image that Stanley got of juggle elves.
That said, they seem unreliable. :smallbiggrin:

guttering flame

2015-06-05, 09:20 AM

I suppose the Parson-backing Hippymancers and Predictamancers would be happy with this alliance?

Kantaki

2015-06-05, 09:26 AM

I suppose the Parson-backing Hippymancers and Predictamancers would be happy with this alliance?

I don't know. They seem to prefer peaceful contemplation over out of control partys. Those elves seem to be more the party type. If that panel is accurate. Please not.

Calemyr

2015-06-05, 09:54 AM

And now, on a special episode of ErfWorld's Funniest Bloopers and Practical Jokes: A talking tower tricks a power-mad midget into recruiting Gamzee Makara.

Gez

2015-06-05, 09:58 AM

Juggalo who drink "fae-go". Of course.

I bet they'll be terminally capricious, and their leader will be called Makara.

Mando Knight

2015-06-05, 11:11 AM

Please tell me that Panel is not canon. Please tell me it is a joke. Jesters and Clowns would be better than that.

It is a joke, and therefore it is canon. Didn't you figure out how Signamancy works?

Radar

2015-06-05, 01:11 PM

I don't know. They seem to prefer peaceful contemplation over out of control partys. Those elves seem to be more the party type. If that panel is accurate. Please not.
Those elves are of the juggalo type. If you are not aware, what that means, check on wikipedia and rather not stray any further - only insanity awaits you on that road.

Kantaki

2015-06-05, 03:28 PM

Those elves are of the juggalo type. If you are not aware, what that means, check on wikipedia and rather not stray any further - only insanity awaits you on that road.

I think I will pass on checking this... My first impression was that they are Erfs take on Rockfestival visitors. I admit this is a bit unfair. If there are News about Wacken or Rock am Ring or any other Rockfestival we have there in Germany the visitors are usually a bit drunk and always a bit loud but usually mostly civilized. Still my first thought was "They will love it when Stanley rocks out. Recruiting them should be easy for him.".

Re Mando Knight: I'm aware how Signamancy tends to work. I just pray to the Titans that they wont always act like this if they get a bigger part in the story.

AgentPaper

2015-06-05, 03:55 PM

I think I will pass on checking this... My first impression was that they are Erfs take on Rockfestival visitors. I admit this is a bit unfair. If there are News about Wacken or Rock am Ring or any other Rockfestival we have there in Germany the visitors are usually a bit drunk and always a bit loud but usually mostly civilized. Still my first thought was "They will love it when Stanley rocks out. Recruiting them should be easy for him.".

Re Mando Knight: I'm aware how Signamancy tends to work. I just pray to the Titans that they wont always act like this if they get a bigger part in the story.

They're the Erf equivalent to Insane Clown Posse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane_Clown_Posse).

Legato Endless

2015-06-05, 06:54 PM

I doubt even if they are partying out constantly we would see them enough to really get irritated. The story is split in half dozen locations now and we didn't see next to anything of the Gobs back when there were only two sides. Natural allies are lucky to be featured extras.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-05, 07:10 PM

They're the Erf equivalent to Insane Clown Posse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane_Clown_Posse).

Or more specifically, the ICP fan club Juggalos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo). They have a reputation for being both randomly crazy and sometimes very violent, thanks to a variety of Juggalo-themed criminal street gangs.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-06-05, 10:20 PM

To be fair, they also do a fair amount of charity work/fundraising. You just don't hear about it because the news would rather focus on the negatives (Don Henley sang about that in Dirty Laundry, one of his best singles IMHO).

The Glyphstone

2015-06-05, 10:36 PM

Yeah, those are the 'good' Juggalos. But like you said, negative news sells better, so the gang faction gets most of the attention. (unsurprisingly, violent and non-violent Juggalos apparently despise each other).

Welf

2015-06-06, 03:20 AM

I notice Jed acts as courtier for Stanley, or what I expect a courtier would do. Something that he hadn't before, with only Wanda and his acting chief warlord giving him advice.

Aquillion

2015-06-06, 03:59 AM

I guess city-head Jed is not all that smart. Since he's the voice of Erf I guess this shouldn't be such a surprise but after the list of his countless aspects I was expecting something else. Will these Juggle elves be more loyal that the hobgoblins? I'm thinking they'll like Charlie's jokes more than StanleyAs someone pointed out on the Erfworld forums, though, this at least shows Jed is knowledgeable. How did he even know about these elves when Stanley didn't?

(Granted knowing more than Stanley isn't exactly the most difficult trick in the world, but Jed was able to find a type of elf that perfectly fit Stanley's tastes, which is fairly impressive.)

NEO|Phyte

2015-06-06, 05:12 AM

Isn't Jed more or less literally Erfworld itself given a voice? It makes sense that it would know what sorts of elves are out there.

:edit: Also, nice to see that Erfworld holds to the fantasy trope of "there's an elf for that"

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-06, 07:47 AM

As someone pointed out on the Erfworld forums, though, this at least shows Jed is knowledgeable. How did he even know about these elves when Stanley didn't?

(Granted knowing more than Stanley isn't exactly the most difficult trick in the world, but Jed was able to find a type of elf that perfectly fit Stanley's tastes, which is fairly impressive.)

Some side very long ago, in an age long past, and age yet to come, probably attacked and was allied with the Juggle Elves.

It is very possible, that as "the tower" Jed is not just the "current" tower, but the tower that always Has been in the city. He could possibly be older than the entire populace of erf-world combined.

It will be interesting to see Parson talk to Jed.

EnragedFilia

2015-06-07, 06:23 PM

Some side very long ago, in an age long past, and age yet to come, probably attacked and was allied with the Juggle Elves.

It is very possible, that as "the tower" Jed is not just the "current" tower, but the tower that always Has been in the city. He could possibly be older than the entire populace of erf-world combined.

It will be interesting to see Parson talk to Jed.

Maggie's explanation and Isaac's thoughts on the subject from the other week (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/59) seem to support this interpretation. If the now-sentient tower expresses the will of the city, it would make sense that it also possesses the memories of the city, and possibly even the memories of the whole world by virtue of being a "base component of the Dirtament".

Incidentally, as a stupidworlder familiar with a variety of fantasy creatures, I would have suggested ogres for Stanley's new natural allies, and failing that maybe bugbears or something. We haven't seen either one in Erfworld, however, which brings up the question of just which standard-fantasy-setting creatures are running around and which ones aren't.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-07, 11:48 PM

Maggie's explanation and Isaac's thoughts on the subject from the other week (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/59) seem to support this interpretation. If the now-sentient tower expresses the will of the city, it would make sense that it also possesses the memories of the city, and possibly even the memories of the whole world by virtue of being a "base component of the Dirtament".

Incidentally, as a stupidworlder familiar with a variety of fantasy creatures, I would have suggested ogres for Stanley's new natural allies, and failing that maybe bugbears or something. We haven't seen either one in Erfworld, however, which brings up the question of just which standard-fantasy-setting creatures are running around and which ones aren't.

Now I am curious as to what Erf World Ogres are like.

Hmm, Perhaps they will be Football(American) players?

Or or..better yet..HipstOgres..They drink StarShmucks!

super dark33

2015-06-08, 12:07 AM

HalfTangible

2015-06-08, 12:37 AM

Now I am curious as to what Erf World Ogres are like.

Hmm, Perhaps they will be Football(American) players?

Or or..better yet..HipstOgres..They drink StarShmucks!

Huge ugly brutes with neckbeards and fedoras.

O-Gears: Mechanical monstrosities in the shape of an O. Powerful, kinda dumb.

...

Look i'm not very good with this Erfworld pun stuff, okay?!

Lizard Lord

2015-06-08, 01:21 AM

Maybe that's the mental image that Stanley got of juggle elves.
That said, they seem unreliable. :smallbiggrin:

They seem about as reliable as High Elves and Olive ran her side off the backs of those guys.

-D-

2015-06-08, 02:58 AM

They seem about as reliable as High Elves and Olive ran her side off the backs of those guys.

Which were completely trustworthy.

screwtape2

2015-06-08, 10:32 AM

halfeye

2015-06-08, 10:57 AM

Which were completely trustworthy.
The trustwortyness of junkies to their dealer is an entirely different matter than their trustworthyness to civilians.

-D-

2015-06-08, 11:11 AM

The trustwortyness of junkies to their dealer is an entirely different matter than their trustworthyness to civilians.
Are you trying to prove my point :P

Junkies are only trustworthy if you have their carrot and they can't take it from you.

halfeye

2015-06-08, 11:18 AM

Are you trying to prove my point :P
Depending on what your point is, I quite probably am.

Junkies are only trustworthy if you have their carrot and they can't take it from you.
Yeah, Olive was their only potential supplier. Charlie, later perhaps, mainly for his own needs, but potentially... I think the implication was cold turkey for everyone but Charlie. Which does imply something about Charlie, now that I think about it.

Legato Endless

2015-06-08, 02:20 PM

I thought maybe Jed was going to help Stanley's cause by keeping Stanley occupied and out of the way. When it introduced itself by teaching him to mix a tropical drink, it sort of looked to me like shades of how Olive kept Judy out of the picture. A Stanley perpetually too drunk (dwunk?) to climb onto a dwagon is a Stanley too dwunk to foul up Parson's plans.

I think it's less opaque than that. Jed want's Stanley calm so he doesn't do anything stupid, but he's also trying to ply his ruler. He's got a pretty singleminded purpose, so I don't think he'd ease up on that for anything. I also think taking this update into account, Jed's loyal enough, but his focus is to the city, not the side in terms of strategic thinking.

Godskook

2015-06-08, 04:49 PM

The Glyphstone

2015-06-08, 04:51 PM

I wonder if Jed could lead a conga-line dance fight?

Godskook

2015-06-08, 05:09 PM

I wonder if Jed could lead a conga-line dance fight?

Maybe not lead-lead, but we've got precedent for "assist-lead"-type dance fight (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/141).

Morty

2015-06-08, 05:21 PM

The art on this page looks surprisingly good, for some reason.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-08, 10:30 PM

Maybe not lead-lead, but we've got precedent for "assist-lead"-type dance fight (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/141).

That's sort of what I was thinking. A conga dance would fit his islander motif, it'd be a logical fit to a city with winding streets, and even the motions fit the group-synchronization thing that seems to be endemic to proper dance fights. I wonder what his bonus would be - equal to his city level, maybe?

One Step Two

2015-06-08, 11:01 PM

That's sort of what I was thinking. A conga dance would fit his islander motif, it'd be a logical fit to a city with winding streets, and even the motions fit the group-synchronization thing that seems to be endemic to proper dance fights. I wonder what his bonus would be - equal to his city level, maybe?

I lean towards the idea that a Conga Dance-fight would be something used in defence, much like the Safety Dance.

Edit: Submitting proof to my notion. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dyO9SWiY7k)

The Glyphstone

2015-06-08, 11:14 PM

I lean towards the idea that a Conga Dance-fight would be something used in defence, much like the Safety Dance.

Edit: Submitting proof to my notion. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dyO9SWiY7k)

Eh, the conga dance there is only a tiny portion of his whole routine. The actual motions of a conga are advancing forward in unison, with mass simultaneous gestures - that's Signamancy better suited for an attacking dance, or at least a counter-attack dance. Safety Dance, or maybe a Rockettes-style high kick line, are more defensively oriented Signamancy.

Godskook

2015-06-09, 08:18 AM

Windscion

2015-06-09, 10:22 AM

... I would have suggested ogres for Stanley's new natural allies, and failing that maybe bugbears or something.
Both of these would be heavies, and therefore useless. Stanley needs knights who can ride dwagons.

Lizard Lord

2015-06-09, 01:37 PM

Both of these would be heavies, and therefore useless. Stanley needs knights who can ride dwagons.

Yea, otherwise he would just make the Twolls knights.

Miklus

2015-06-09, 06:27 PM

Guys, Juggle Elves aren't "junkies" as much as they are cult-esque band groupies. I highly doubt that Juggalos would turn on the ICP, and similarly, any newly-popped Juggle Elves would be very unlikely to turn against Stanley, partially out of raw signamancy-based loyalty and partly out of lack of other suitable options(drug dealers are easier to replace than iconic cult leaders).

Almost every natural ally we have seen has turned on their masters. The Giants, the Hobgobwins, the High Elves... The regular gobwins turned on King Saline IV. Ansom dissolved his allience with the Tardy Elves because they where no-shows at the battle for Gobwin Knob. I think a side is better of without natural allies at this point, I wonder why anyone bothers.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-06-09, 06:41 PM

EnragedFilia

2015-06-09, 06:44 PM

Kornaki

2015-06-09, 09:04 PM

HalfTangible

2015-06-09, 09:51 PM

Out of all the elves that showed up for the battle of Gobwin Knob, the tardy elves being late is going to make you write the whole thing off as a disaster? Come on, they were just in as a joke. The rest of the elves performed fine.What's funny about that is that the Tardy elves would have arrived in time to provide Ansom with more troops right as his forces were being slaughtered.

Natural Allies seem to take the place of the buyout system you see in Civ or Endless Legend (and presumably other 4x titles i haven't played), as well as a special infantry option for the side they serve. They can be bought quickly and easily with any excess schmuckers, and from the looks of it all have special abilities of some sort or another that you can't get popping normal infantry. Both of these things are great advantages to a side that employs them.

The downside is that natural allies have their own command structure that can make decisions for itself.

Also, almost every natural ally? Really? We've seen at least 12 natural ally types (most of them elves) only 3 or 4 of which have actually turned on their master, and all of those either involved Charlie or happened under circumstances mysterious enough to be Charlie.

Godskook

2015-06-09, 11:01 PM

Almost every natural ally we have seen has turned on their masters. The Giants, the Hobgobwins, the High Elves... The regular gobwins turned on King Saline IV. Ansom dissolved his allience with the Tardy Elves because they where no-shows at the battle for Gobwin Knob. I think a side is better of without natural allies at this point, I wonder why anyone bothers.

Gobwins - our best knowledge of this says that this was an internal issue with someone on the side convincing the natural allies to revolt from within. Wanda seems likely as the cause. Not nearly as much a question of natural ally loyalty as it is caster/warlord loyalty.

Hobgobwins, Western Giants, High Elves are all turned via Charlescomm, which against indicates the primary concern is not "natural allies", but Charlie. Additionally, its extremely likely that Olive was not treating the High Elves well(there's nobody we know that she -did- treat well), such that its partially her fault for their disloyalty.

Marbits have never acted disloyal to their primary ally.

No elf side, outside high elves, has been disloyal. There's 9 of them.

Also, Erfworld has done a really good job demonstrating three strong facts: 1.Parson, Charlie and Judy are all extremely non-Erf in how they think and approach things. This also means that events surrounding them are reasonably assumed to be 'non-standard' compared to the rest of Erfworld. 2.Things surrounding Wanda, Jillian, Parson, and god knows who else(presumably mostly local parties to the plot, as there's apparently a lot fate doesn't care about too) are matter of fate, and thus even further 'non-standard' compared to the rest of Erfworld. 3.We have thus far been shown a very small region of Erfworld, and have no idea how big the place actually is.

With all that said, I think we're better off without making generalizations of that magnitude that obviously runs contrary to in-world opinions on the subject.

Aquillion

2015-06-11, 03:54 AM

Beyond that, even if natural allies are unreliable, they could provide advantages that you wouldn't get otherwise. They might be cheap (we don't know), but they definitely give you access to new unit types, new abilities, and therefore new strategies. GK benefitted from its natural allies for a long time until it finally lost them; without them, it probably would have lost numerous battles and never even reached the point where they were betrayed.

Miklus

2015-06-11, 10:31 AM

It is true that Charlie was responsible for most of the natural allies turning that we have seen, but the fact remains that they are a huge security hazard as they will often turn at the worst possible moment, even in mid-battle. Maybe if Charlie was dead and gone, things would be different. I would still be suspicious of any side with a turnamancer.

Kantaki

2015-06-12, 06:59 AM

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-12, 07:37 AM

New Comic.

Interesting. Fate can be cheated. And it cheats right back. Poor Jojo. By trying to save Sylvia he caused her doom. I hope we see more of him and in a not antagonistic role. But the important thing for Parson is that he can fight fate instead of being ist agent. It will just be a very hard battle. And Wanda wouldn't like it at all. I wonder if Fate and not Charlie will be Erfworlds final Boss. It seems more likely after Hearing Jojos Story.

I have been predicting the Fate monster being the final boss, and that Wanda won't like it and will betray Parson over it for..oh probably since after book 2 sometime, I read Book 0 after book 2 ended and I was jonsing for more erf and realized that Wanda's Loyalty is first and foremost to fate.

I am interested in how The Great Mind's will react, they want him to Croak Charlie, and if Parson ends up deciding that Fate is a bigger foe than Charlie they might turn on him.

Kantaki

2015-06-12, 08:01 AM

I have been predicting the Fate monster being the final boss, and that Wanda won't like it and will betray Parson over it for..oh probably since after book 2 sometime, I read Book 0 after book 2 ended and I was jonsing for more erf and realized that Wanda's Loyalty is first and foremost to fate.

I am interested in how The Great Mind's will react, they want him to Croak Charlie, and if Parson ends up deciding that Fate is a bigger foe than Charlie they might turn on him.

The Hippiemancers want Parson to bring peace to Erf right? I just hope their wish isn't granted in a ironic manner. I mean I no one is left to fight that could be called peace. If your theory about the Great Minds/Charlie is right that is a distinct possibility.

Legato Endless

2015-06-12, 08:01 AM

It also adds more evidence to another old theory, that Charlie has been fighting Fate for quite some time, probably since at least back when Olive almost killed him. That ongoing struggle is probably what occupies the 'top of Charlie's list'.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-12, 08:18 AM

The Hippiemancers want Parson to bring peace to Erf right? I just hope their wish isn't granted in a ironic manner. I mean I no one is left to fight that could be called peace. If your theory about the Great Minds/Charlie is right that is a distinct possibility.

I am not sure Parson will bring peace, at least not himself. I imagine he will create the possibility of peace, and allow ErfKind to choose if they want it or not

Killer Angel

2015-06-13, 04:14 AM

This update, really opens up a wide array of possibilities for future developments of the plot...

Yuki Akuma

2015-06-13, 04:39 AM

I kinda want to see Jojo join Gobwin Knob now.

Aquillion

2015-06-13, 05:08 AM

Theory: Charlie made it so nothing from Erfworld can kill him. He knew about the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, but didn't expect it to be used again. That's why he's so obsessed with Parson.

Douglas

2015-06-13, 05:38 AM

Theory: Charlie made it so nothing from Erfworld can kill him. He knew about the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, but didn't expect it to be used again. That's why he's so obsessed with Parson.
Now that sounds like Charlie and fits this new information very well. Charlie, as an extremely powerful Carnymancer, rigs Fate to specify his own cause of death, and in seeking to make it as close to impossible as he can manage, he comes up with "something not from Erf". This seems extremely likely to me, with the main question being whether he did it before (thinking it a true impossibility) or after (inspired by the idea) learning about Summon Perfect Warlord.

EnragedFilia

2015-06-13, 07:04 AM

Now that sounds like Charlie and fits this new information very well. Charlie, as an extremely powerful Carnymancer, rigs Fate to specify his own cause of death, and in seeking to make it as close to impossible as he can manage, he comes up with "something not from Erf". This seems extremely likely to me, with the main question being whether he did it before (thinking it a true impossibility) or after (inspired by the idea) learning about Summon Perfect Warlord.

According to the wiki (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Judy_Gale) it must have been the latter, for a number of reasons but chiefly because Charlie himself apparently invented the spell. Maybe he thought nobody else would ever be able to use it?

HalfTangible

2015-06-13, 09:18 AM

According to the wiki (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Judy_Gale) it must have been the latter, for a number of reasons but chiefly because Charlie himself apparently invented the spell. Maybe he thought nobody else would ever be able to use it?

Uh...

Charlie didn't create it the second time around. We know because Marie told Janis the link-up of who created the spell.

Kantaki

2015-06-13, 10:01 AM

Uh...

Charlie didn't create it the second time around. We know because Marie told Janis the link-up of who created the spell.

But he was involved the first time. So he could be called the spells inventor. Lets say you build a car that runs on water and some years later someone does the same. Would that mean you aren't the Inventor anymore? As far as we know Charlie was the first to use this spell, it makes sense that he came up with it as well. That he wasn't involved the second time doesn't change that. In the same way Parson invented the "Awaken Tower" spell and would still be the inventor if someone else recreates it.

HalfTangible

2015-06-13, 10:43 AM

But he was involved the first time. So he could be called the spells inventor. Lets say you build a car that runs on water and some years later someone does the same. Would that mean you aren't the Inventor anymore?Yes. Because the chances of you creating the exact same design as the other person is remarkably small. :smallwink: Just now you'd have to say a water-powered car instead of the.

eschmenk

2015-06-13, 11:19 AM

Theory: Charlie made it so nothing from Erfworld can kill him. He knew about the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, but didn't expect it to be used again. That's why he's so obsessed with Parson.
My thought is that that Charlie doesn't seem to be obsessed enough if that were the case. Charlie told Parson that Parson wasn't at the top of his list (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/28) and that seems to be the case. Parson is still an important target for Charlie, but no more than I would expect any "perfect warlord" to be. Charlie isn't the type of person who could have allies, and Parson is smart and competitive, so he's a threat to Charlie's interests. That's enough to keep Charlie interested in him.

OTOH, we don't really know what all Charlie is trying to do. Maybe he's stalling while he comes up with a way to protect himself from Parson. Also, if Parson is really fated to kill Charlie, Charlie wouldn't want to give that away by acting paranoid. I guess we really can't know, then.

Godskook

2015-06-13, 12:25 PM

Yes. Because the chances of you creating the exact same design as the other person is remarkably small. :smallwink: Just now you'd have to say a water-powered car instead of the.

Only one time in the comics has the spell been invented. The only other time the spell was used, at least one of the casters involved was fully aware of how the original had been made. We don't go around saying that every tom, ****, and harry invented their own model of car. We give credit to Benz for the original and Ford for the first mass-producible one, and Ford's existance doesn't remove Benz as the inventor of -the- car.

Where inventorship is contested is in cases such as Leibniz-Newton on Calculus, where as far as I know both did the job concurrently, and neither was published before the other began his work.

My thought is that that Charlie doesn't seem to be obsessed enough if that were the case. Charlie told Parson that Parson wasn't at the top of his list (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/28) and that seems to be the case. Parson is still an important target for Charlie, but no more than I would expect any "perfect warlord" to be. Charlie isn't the type of person who could have allies, and Parson is smart and competitive, so he's a threat to Charlie's interests. That's enough to keep Charlie interested in him.

OTOH, we don't really know what all Charlie is trying to do. Maybe he's stalling while he comes up with a way to protect himself from Parson. Also, if Parson is really fated to kill Charlie, Charlie wouldn't want to give that away by acting paranoid. I guess we really can't know, then.

Its entirely plausible that the wording is such that Charlie doesn't realize that Parson -could- be a threat to him, as predictions do tend to be ~weird~ that way, for instance, Jillian being predicted to kill "the leader of Haffaton", but also fated to kill Olive, despite everyone's estimation.

Welf

2015-06-13, 04:24 PM

Theory: Charlie made it so nothing from Erfworld can kill him. He knew about the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, but didn't expect it to be used again. That's why he's so obsessed with Parson.

I think that is unlikely. In book zero (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/68) Wanda explains that Olive (the Florist and Charley's daughter) tried to kill Charley while Haffaton was expanding, and that was under Judy from earth. If he had used Carneymancy to make a non-Erfworlder his killer it would have been very likely that Olive would have croaked him. Also, I think Charley realized very early that Parson was from Earth, and yet he still made him the offer to join him as warlord, although it was apparently his policy to not have any warlords. Plus, this is Charley, this would be too simply for him. Maybe he made his death only possible by running out of schmuckers? Although that would be too simple, too

Douglas

2015-06-13, 07:29 PM

Maybe he made his death only possible by running out of schmuckers? Although that would be too simple, too
Choosing something convoluted as your cause of death is just asking for trouble, I think. Fate would have no problem working its way through an unlikely series of events. No, if you're going to try to use this trick for immortality you need something that's nigh impossible, not merely difficult or improbable.

Godskook

2015-06-13, 08:01 PM

Choosing something convoluted as your cause of death is just asking for trouble, I think. Fate would have no problem working its way through an unlikely series of events. No, if you're going to try to use this trick for immortality you need something that's nigh impossible, not merely difficult or improbable.

"Killed by the conquerer of all of erfworld" is a seemingly useful restriction.

Lizard Lord

2015-06-13, 08:52 PM

"Killed by the conquerer of all of erfworld" is a seemingly useful restriction.

If that is the case it would explain why Charlie is not interested in conquest. He wouldn't want to doom himself to suicide.
\

Huh...and it would actually explain the real reason Olive was trying to conquer Erf, she just wanted to finish the job she started.

HalfTangible

2015-06-13, 10:42 PM

"Killed by the conquerer of all of erfworld" is a seemingly useful restriction.

... Or maybe 'killed to end all war'? :smallamused: That would even fit with the Predictamancers' stated reasons for the summoning.

'Killed by the conqueror of erfworld' would be a pretty good condition, yeah (though I imagine that that would require Charlie's side to fall first, which would explain why he's built up as powerful a force as he has with as small a resource base [1 city and 1 arkentool] as he can muster)

My theory on Charlie for a while now is that he's been trying to destroy Fate as a concept in Erfworld - that's the 'only enemy worth fighting' he was talking about in the book 0 thing with Jillian and Wanda. That would explain why it feels (to Parson, at least) as if he's being railroaded by two different DMs at once - he IS, and each has a different goal in mind. And it would even explain why he's going out of his way to keep Jillian alive - he severed her from the jester thing, and if that was Fate, it means Jillian is immune to... well, Fate railroading, I guess you'd say. I don't think we've seen her go into or out of any situation where she couldn't conceivably have done so with her own strength and wit (as opposed to, say, Wanda or Sylvia)

The question that raises is why he would do that (my best guess is either 'so he can never lose' since he's basically unassailable without some sort of fate bonus, or that he secretly wants war to end as much as anyone else and thinks that he can if Fate doesn't keep getting in his way)

AgentPaper

2015-06-14, 12:53 AM

Hm, or perhaps, "I will be the last one on Erf to die", or something along those lines. Which he assumed to mean that he would die at the Erf equivalent of the end of time, after everyone else had already died, but instead Parson is going to break the rules somehow to make killing other people impossible, so that Charlie is literally the last one to die, but not the last one alive.

That would also follow the various predictions fairly well, IE olive wanting to make the whole world one side where everyone is tranced and thus can't kill anyone else (or die).

guttering flame

2015-06-14, 03:12 AM

If Sylia's story teaches us anything. history would try to repeat itself after failing a first time. Sylvia died by fire all three times so Charlie should suffer debilitating drug problems and probably a feme fatale / murderous daughter-figure situation probably Jillian.

Kornaki

2015-06-14, 05:54 PM

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-15, 06:15 AM

Radar

2015-06-15, 06:38 AM

New Erf

Now we have something interesting.

Did we know Erfworld began with 99 Sides? I bet that is important, I wonder if one could calculate out the potential number of cities based on the number of starting sides, do we know if new cities can appear? or if those sorts of things are a static mechanic?

We know for sure, capitals can only be built in specific places (there were more then enough references to capital sites at this point), but it wasn't ever really mentioned, how does it work with other cities. From the practice of Erfworld it looks like they are also static, but I don't think it was ever confirmed - we just have the fact that Parson never pondered on the idea of building new cities or just rearranging their layout within Gobwin Knob domain.

Lethologica

2015-06-15, 11:50 AM

HalfTangible

2015-06-15, 11:57 AM

Jojo's missed a trick. The scroll is, in fact, Parson's reassurance that he's here by choice. (The fact that Fate intervened when Parson tried to cast the spell is not something either Jojo or Parson could know.)

Let's be perfectly honest here: it's pretty obvious fate intervened even without seeing the 'Manos' unsound effect. Even if they don't know for sure, they could probably put two and two together. (especially with the knowledge that the bracer was lying to him)

Killer Angel

2015-06-15, 01:30 PM

That is, indeed, a glorious monster manual! :smallbiggrin:

Lethologica

2015-06-15, 01:38 PM

Let's be perfectly honest here: it's pretty obvious fate intervened even without seeing the 'Manos' unsound effect. Even if they don't know for sure, they could probably put two and two together. (especially with the knowledge that the bracer was lying to him)
Does Parson know the bracer was lying to him? On the face of it, it's not strange that burning things in a burning city are falling down. The bracer's behavior is strange, but not in a way that Parson can definitively tag as 'lying'.

Landis963

2015-06-15, 01:46 PM

Does Parson know the bracer was lying to him? On the face of it, it's not strange that burning things in a burning city are falling down. The bracer's behavior is strange, but not in a way that Parson can definitively tag as 'lying'.

The bracer attempted to obfuscate exactly what his chances of casting the Dorothy scroll were. There aren't many ways of doing that beyond lying when you only have a numerical readout to work with.

Lethologica

2015-06-15, 02:04 PM

I misremembered the dialogue from that update. My mistake.

Jasdoif

2015-06-15, 02:21 PM

The bracer attempted to obfuscate exactly what his chances of casting the Dorothy scroll were. There aren't many ways of doing that beyond lying when you only have a numerical readout to work with.I don't think there was any actual obfuscation there at all, honestly. My evaluation was that the bracer showed Parson's high chance of successfully casting the spell, which would entice him to attempt casting the spell, which would cause Fate to prevent him from casting the spell, and the bracer then showed the updated chance of successfully casting the spell (which was now impossible). The bracer can make calculations on future events...which could conceivably include reactions to reading its own results.

eschmenk

2015-06-15, 05:05 PM

I don't think there was any actual obfuscation there at all, honestly. My evaluation was that the bracer showed Parson's high chance of successfully casting the spell, which would entice him to attempt casting the spell, which would cause Fate to prevent him from casting the spell, and the bracer then showed the updated chance of successfully casting the spell (which was now impossible). The bracer can make calculations on future events...which could conceivably include reactions to reading its own results.

Interesting idea, but I think if that was what was happening, I would have expected the results to toggle between 0.98 and 0.0 instead of remaining on 0.0. I'm leaning toward the idea that the bracer displays the tentative results of its calculations and fate is the last factor it considers and it takes a while to do it, so the 0.98 number was just a tentative result that was displayed for while until the calculations finished. Consistent with the numbers being tentative, it had displayed different numbers earlier, even before Parson had specified that the spell would be cast upon him. IMO, it was foolish of Parson to pay any attention to anything but the final result without knowing how the bracer worked. Granted, he was under a fair amount of stress at the time.

EnragedFilia

2015-06-15, 06:00 PM

That is, indeed, a glorious monster manual! :smallbiggrin:

Indeed, that second edition cover art sure brings back memories.

Douglas

2015-06-15, 07:05 PM

Interesting idea, but I think if that was what was happening, I would have expected the results to toggle between 0.98 and 0.0 instead of remaining on 0.0. I'm leaning toward the idea that the bracer displays the tentative results of its calculations and fate is the last factor it considers and it takes a while to do it, so the 0.98 number was just a tentative result that was displayed for while until the calculations finished. Consistent with the numbers being tentative, it had displayed different numbers earlier, even before Parson had specified that the spell would be cast upon him. IMO, it was foolish of Parson to pay any attention to anything but the final result without knowing how the bracer worked. Granted, he was under a fair amount of stress at the time.
Yes, I think this is pretty much it. The bracer calculates the odds of Parson succeeding when he completes an attempt to use the scroll, and that comes out as .98, and then it notices that Fate will never allow Parson to complete such an attempt, always providing a reason to not do it or an interruption, and that sets it to 0.

HalfTangible

2015-06-15, 07:09 PM

Does Parson know the bracer was lying to him? On the face of it, it's not strange that burning things in a burning city are falling down. The bracer's behavior is strange, but not in a way that Parson can definitively tag as 'lying'.

He specifically stated such at the time :smalltongue: Even if he doesn't know it he at least suspects it

Lethologica

2015-06-15, 07:51 PM

I misremembered the dialogue from that update. My mistake.
wordswordswords

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-16, 07:22 AM

Yes, I think this is pretty much it. The bracer calculates the odds of Parson succeeding when he completes an attempt to use the scroll, and that comes out as .98, and then it notices that Fate will never allow Parson to complete such an attempt, always providing a reason to not do it or an interruption, and that sets it to 0.

Alternatively the Bracer does not play well with the Carnymancy in the scroll.

guttering flame

2015-06-16, 08:01 AM

Couldn't fate just be a bit slow? It's not instanteneous. It's presented as a player that has to respond to attempts to thwart him and thus can't be instanteneous. If Parson can act within the split second window he can defeat Fate.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-06-19, 07:41 AM

and thus, the ultimate question (not that one) for Parson to decide is perhaps the hardest question most warriors face

"Why do I fight"

guttering flame

2015-06-19, 07:53 AM

The implied answer has to be: he'll do all three. :smallbiggrin:

-D-

2015-06-19, 10:07 AM

The implied answer has to be: he'll do all three. :smallbiggrin:

Indeed. It's gonna be a long fight.

*puts cocoa on stove*

Let's do this.

-D-

2015-06-22, 08:15 AM

So... It begins.

Anyway not much this update than Don having some problems with the comms.

Kantaki

2015-06-22, 09:46 AM

Not much new information. Tramennis keeps his coming negotiations with GK a secret from his ally and something is happening at Transylvito.

Did anyone else expect something more like Iron Man from Tramennis outfit? Sure the Hermes style fits his character but I wouldn't call armor.

Calemyr

2015-06-22, 09:50 AM

What I expect to hear: "I like the idea of declaring war on War, I really do. The way things work right now is really stupid, and I've been trying to figure out how to fix things. But, in order to do that, I'm going to have to do something about our resident war profiteer, Charlie. And if Fate doesn't like my plans, I'll have to fight that, too. Guess what I'm trying to say is my "ultimate" enemy is War itself, as well as anyone or anything that tries to stop me. For now, Charlie is at the top of that list."

The Glyphstone

2015-06-22, 09:50 AM

I immediately thought 'jetpack', only because it's appeared previously in the strip - Ace gave it to King Slately originally, and it looks like Tramennis inherited it.

Yuki Akuma

2015-06-22, 10:02 AM

Did anyone else expect something more like Iron Man from Tramennis outfit? Sure the Hermes style fits his character but I wouldn't call armor.

In Erfworld terms, that jetpack is a breastplate, according to Ace.

Chromascope3D

2015-06-22, 10:12 AM

So, it's two weeks since the last full comic page. I mean, not that we're missing anything, since it's basically all been talking anyway, but I do wonder if it isn't more new artist blues...

-D-

2015-06-22, 10:42 AM

So, it's two weeks since the last full comic page.
And that page was about Zhopa. Not doing anything (other than walking and fighting a Jellipede).

I wonder if there are people that skip the text. I pity them. I can't honestly imagine what's that like.

halfeye

2015-06-22, 10:48 AM

And that page was about Zhopa. Not doing anything (other than walking and fighting a Jellipede).

I wonder if there are people that skip the text. I pity them. I can't honestly imagine what's that like.

Yeah, it is beginning to look like artists are a problem for this strip. Maybe the writer should learn to draw?

-D-

2015-06-22, 12:18 PM

That reminds me, there is a saying something, something bad sheep blames the wool. On the other hand, I could see there being just three nasty coincidences.

But hey, I'm not complaining, text updates are still updates.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-22, 12:20 PM

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

-D-

2015-06-22, 12:28 PM

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
Fate conspiring against Erfworld! Inconceivable!

Let's not put our cartoonist before the horses. David has yet to depart and he is getting better at it.

halfeye

2015-06-22, 01:50 PM

Fate conspiring against Erfworld! Inconceivable!

Let's not put our cartoonist before the horses. David has yet to depart and he is getting better at it.
Unfortunately, there are two threes. Three consecutive text updates, three disrupted artists. It does look as if something might not be right with Erfworld.

TechnoWarforged

2015-06-22, 03:10 PM

So I think a coup is brewing in TV but a few updates before it seems like Don has some protection against these kinds of things.

I think it's most likely from the fact that almost all TV units (especially commanders) are flying units and Don & Bunny are not and Don got some tricks up his sleeves that plays around that.

I also think that "Caeser" is a sort of signmancy... the real life Caeser was a general who was really successful in his conquest in Gaul that he marched back into Rome as Tyrant for life... and in the end gets stabbed by all the senators somewhere in the middle of march...

Lethologica

2015-06-22, 05:47 PM

As far as I can tell, it all hinges on how Bunny jumps. #didnotintendthat

Chromascope3D

2015-06-22, 05:52 PM

Fate conspiring against Erfworld! Inconceivable!

Let's not put our cartoonist before the horses. David has yet to depart and he is getting better at it.

I agree, I have also noticed improvements, but, that could also be because he has fewer frames to draw, and thus can spend more time on each one. :smalleek:

Mobius Twist

2015-06-22, 08:26 PM

I've been under the impression that the writer/head honcho (Rob Balder) determines which pages are best suited to a comic-only versus comic-plus-text format and proceeds from there.

That is, there's no malicious lack of talent, time, or ability to draw, it's merely been decided that this particular story is best suited to being told through text.

Now, I realize there's the question of continuous artist support (the "Toolshed") and many,many financially-backed promises (Kickstarter, etc) that are tied to this being a full-paneled, full-color comic. The more I read, the more I find that I enjoy the story being told this way and find that the richnes of detail and many of the nuances are not present in purely-visual medium, and I suspect Balder is making decisions based on this.

Kornaki

2015-06-22, 09:26 PM

I also think that "Caeser" is a sort of signmancy... the real life Caeser was a general who was really successful in his conquest in Gaul that he marched back into Rome as Tyrant for life... and in the end gets stabbed by all the senators somewhere in the middle of march...

I like the parallel, but Caesar got stabbed a little later than you remember it.

ti'esar

2015-06-22, 09:33 PM

Still, it could be seen as suggestive of a coup by Caesar ultimately not turning out so well for him.

eschmenk

2015-06-22, 09:48 PM

Yes, it seems as if Rob Balder likes to explore how the various characters think and how they perceive the various aspects of Erfworld and likes to include a lot of dialog and probably other things that don't really lend themselves to a comic format. It's conceivable that he has little choice in the matter of text vs. comic, but I doubt that's the case and wouldn't conclude that it was unless he specifically says so.

Looking at the most recent update, for example, I don't think it would work very well as a comic page. There is essentially no action to show and the two pictures embedded in the text show you almost everything you would want to see. The only thing that is missing and that probably would have worked better in comic form would have been a panel showing Don's and Bunny's reaction to the source of the interruption. (I'm assuming the actual interruption would be kept mysterious as a tease.) There could have been panels showing Tramennis and the soldiers waving at each other, but it's not as if we would really need to see that.

Since he used the text form, Rob was able to include a fair amount of dialogue without creating walls of text (well, it was all one big wall, I guess) and Rob was able to describe King Tramennis's thought process, which he couldn't have done in comic form, at least not without a bunch of fairly awkward-sounding thought bubbles. Even with tons of thought bubbles, you still wouldn't get things like, "In the span of a split second, the King understood..."

On the other hand, assuming there was a coup attempt, something like that would probably work well in comic form, so I would expect to see a regular comic page for that, if it happens.

I can understand readers preferring the comic form, but my guess is that Rob probably doesn't have the same preference. I don't really know, though. I haven't looked to see if he's addressed the issue. I wouldn't be surprised if he has.

Razade

2015-06-22, 09:56 PM

I actually prefer the text updates. Only problem is it was intended, and paid for by Kickstarter backers, that it'd be a full comic for chapter 3. I feel the story goes much better as they are put together now.

screwtape2

2015-06-23, 09:24 AM

Unfortunately, there are two threes. Three consecutive text updates, three disrupted artists. It does look as if something might not be right with Erfworld.

what are you, some kind of mathamancer?

Killer Angel

2015-06-23, 04:29 PM

As far as I can tell, it all hinges on how Bunny jumps. #didnotintendthat

I don't believe you. :smalltongue:

-D-

2015-06-23, 05:09 PM

I don't believe you. :smalltongue:
#killthenonbeliever (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WnA2Dsasqw) :smalltongue:

Lethologica

2015-06-26, 06:03 PM

Transylvito has all the signs of a Corleone-esque decline.

Chromascope3D

2015-06-26, 06:06 PM

So, are they ever actually gonna do the coup, or...? I mean, I was kinda excited that the story seemed to be going somewhere again, so I really hope this subplot ends up resolving that one somehow.

Kantaki

2015-06-26, 06:28 PM

Looks like there is some fun stuff happening on this plot-thread. I hope we stay there a few updates. And I bet we will change the channel on monday.

Caesar makes plans the invasion of Carphone. Then stuff happens at Aqua Velva. And we get to see how seabattles look.

Carpools crest is a car that is a pool. Should have expected that.

Landis963

2015-06-26, 07:17 PM

You know, I just figured out that Caesar's outfit is Spike's from Buffy. I feel downright unobservant for missing this earlier.

Kantaki

2015-06-26, 08:05 PM

You know, I just figured out that Caesar's outfit is Spike's from Buffy. I feel downright unobservant for missing this earlier.

You recognized it faster than I did. But now that you say it I see the resemblance. Did he always wear a long coat? I think it was shorter at some point. Caesar dresses like Spike. That could mean bad or really bad things for the future, depending on the version of Spike that was the inspiration. Maybe Caesar will end up on the same side as Parson at some point. The Signamancy would fit.

Aquillion

2015-06-26, 10:33 PM

I think it's been made pretty clear that Caesar isn't down with all this royalist boop. On the other hand, I can't see him being eager to sign up for Toolism, either.

Legato Endless

2015-06-26, 11:27 PM

Well this finally bring things to a head. Caesar and Don are going to clash, because now the alliance with GK isn't favorable, it's absolutely necessary for their survival. Hopefully Don gets kicked out soon.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-06-27, 01:31 AM

As long as it leads to Jillian's dismemberment, I'm cool with that.

Killer Angel

2015-06-27, 03:14 AM

I wonder if we'll see "on screen" a call Parson - Carpool...

Marcelinari

2015-06-27, 02:52 PM

I suspect that this development will lead to Faq's involvement in TV's problems as an official ally. Caesar demands that Don call in some of his markers on Jillian, Jillian concedes, deciding that it probably wouldn't hurt to give Prince Albert a little combat experience? Vinnie accompanies him as a chaperone, maybe? Also, Carpool has no real way of knowing about TV's pocket ally, and this way TV's resources aren't unduly stretched by responding to the assault. According to the Summer Updates, Aqua Velva is max 2 turns from Faq by vampire-flight. Gwiffons might be faster.

-D-

2015-06-27, 04:19 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Jill was called to help.

The way I see it this plays out:
A) TV calls his allies for aid - Jetstone refuses, FAQ obliges but it ends poorly somehow
B) TV finds out about GK support and GK is called to aid - very unlikely.
C) TV calls allies, no one answers

I might see A/C happening. B would happen if they knew Parson was The Perfect warlord and their Thinkamancers trusted each other to share sides details (troops, production possibilities, spells available). And that would be a HUGE leap across the abyss for TV.

My bet - they call Jillian, Jillian has problem with sorting Princess Albert to join the fight (would she go in to help TV only for Albert to succeed her?), Jetstone can't and they lose Aqua Velva. Caesar, starts rethinking his alliance options.