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View Full Version : Swordsage + Adaptive Style = Goldmine?



Pax_Chi
2007-04-21, 02:18 AM
Taken from the Swordsage Wikipedia page:


Of the three Martial Adept classes, the Swordsage has the most cumbersome method of retrieving its various maneuvers. By spending a full round doing nothing the Swordsage may recover one maneuver. This is balanced by the Swordsage having the greatest number of maneuvers to choose from and the largest number of readied maneuvers available at any time. By taking the Adaptive Style feat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feat_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29), Swordsages can take a full round action to change (and therefore recover) all of their maneuvers, making Adaptive Style all but necessary for most Swordsage builds.

I'm curious if this is accurate, since it fixes the major drawback for the Swordsage, beyond the 3/4 BAB. If this is as advertised, then a Swordsage with this feat can essentially regain all their maneuvers in one round rather than one maneuver per round, which is a huge improvement.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-21, 02:19 AM
Yes, it's accurate. CustServ has confirmed it repeatedly and consistently. Adaptive Style is basically a "must-have" feat for the Swordsage, like Weapon Finesse for a melee rogue.

Pax_Chi
2007-04-21, 02:22 AM
Yes, it's accurate. CustServ has confirmed it repeatedly and consistently. Adaptive Style is basically a "must-have" feat for the Swordsage, like Weapon Finesse for a melee rogue.

Outstanding.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-04-21, 02:43 AM
CustServ has confirmed it repeatedly and consistently.
Ah, you had me going until you made this outrageous and frankly impossible claim. Good joke, sir, but you took it a bit too far to be believable.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-21, 02:55 AM
So it's the Swordsage's natural spell? Awesome. Warblades looked a bit overpowered with their clearly superior maneuver recovery system.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-21, 02:59 AM
Warblades have to spend a standard action attacking once or intimidating after their swift-action recovery, which isn't that much better than Adaptive Style's full-round action.

Crusaders actually have the best recovery mechanism--it doesn't eat an action at all.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-21, 12:19 PM
Yes, it's accurate. CustServ has confirmed it repeatedly and consistently. Adaptive Style is basically a "must-have" feat for the Swordsage, like Weapon Finesse for a melee rogue.Erm, melee rogues can do just dandy without Weapon Finesse if you build them for it. The better comparison is Natural Spell for a Druid -- you're pretty awesome whether you take it or not, but you'd still be an idiot not to take it.

Theodoxus
2007-04-21, 12:26 PM
Nah, Natural Spell is no longer needed, as Wild Shape is no longer available ;)

Seriously though, people still allow Druids as presented in the PHB? I gave the Animal Companion back to my shapeshifters, but outlawed the Wild Shape cheese.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-21, 12:46 PM
Well said, Theodoxus!

I sometimes am struck by short bouts of indecision while pulling together a Swordsage. I ask myself... is this feat really fair? Is CustServ right? But, really, compared to Crusader or Warblade, it's quite balanced—a full-round action IS a full-round action, and when you go and look at the wizard or druid rampaging about, and consider that you have to burn one feat out of your bonusfeatless progression to get it, it's really not too heavy.

What WOULD be too heavy would be forcing the Swordsage to stick with his current system, as that just sucks. At first level, it takes him 3 full-round actions to get back what a Crusader can get instintantly or a Warblade can get with a Standard and Swift action.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-21, 11:13 PM
In my opinion, it's actually a little bit stronger than the Warblade. There are two reasons for this.

First is the obvious: it lets you ready new maneuvers. Duh. That's what the feat is for.

The second is more subtle. The swift action is actually one of the most powerful in the game. There's only one ability that grants extras of it, and a lot of VERY powerful things work off of swift actions. This saves you the cost of a swift action. (This is why Crusader > Warblade.)

namo
2007-04-22, 06:08 AM
The warblade text says : "You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same around with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round"

Is "a melee attack" only one attack roll as a standard action ? I thought full-round attacks were ok.

edit: and I'm realizing a bit late that I'm hijacking th thread. Well, if someone doesn't mind answering to me here...

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-22, 07:20 AM
The warblade text says : "You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same around with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round"

Is "a melee attack" only one attack roll as a standard action ? I thought full-round attacks were ok.

edit: and I'm realizing a bit late that I'm hijacking th thread. Well, if someone doesn't mind answering to me here...

This is incredibly dodgy ground. I would say that you could interpret it that you can use any means possible to make an attack or you can waste a standard action. In theory you could make a run action and an attack of opportunity, assuming something very odd is going on.

I suspect that it's supposed to mean you have to make a standard action to attack or do nothing but by RAW it's up to debate.

henebry
2007-04-22, 07:21 AM
Namo:

It's a single melee attack made as a standard action. The idea is that you cannot:
* take a full round action
* take a standard action other than a single melee attack (useful stuff like quaff a potion, cast a spell, etc.)

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-22, 12:43 PM
Both a strict reading and CustServ have confirmed that a Warblade can make a full-attack when recovering his maneuvers.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-22, 04:36 PM
Yep. You also never declare a full attack.

This sequence of actions does not happen:
Swift action to recover maneuvers
Full-round action to full attack

Instead, this happens:
Swift action to recover maneuvers
Standard action to make a single attack
Standard action changed to full-round action to make full attack

Besides, it says "a melee attack," not "an attack action." The "immediately" in the wording precludes waiting for an AoO, though.

Dausuul
2007-04-22, 08:20 PM
Warblades have to spend a standard action attacking once or intimidating after their swift-action recovery, which isn't that much better than Adaptive Style's full-round action.

...or they can make a full attack. Warblade recovery mechanism specifies "a swift action followed by an attack or a standard action to do nothing." It does not require that you make a single attack only.


Crusaders actually have the best recovery mechanism--it doesn't eat an action at all.

If you can puzzle out how it works and don't mind your starting maneuvers being randomized, sure.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-22, 10:06 PM
If you can puzzle out how it works and don't mind your starting maneuvers being randomized, sure.

Look, the basic idea is that your maneuvers are random. Actually sitting down and puzzling the thing through means you get like every maneuver always. (I think. Tielaxhu_Ghola over on the WotC boards figured this out, but he used set notation and I'm an actor.)

Besides, your maneuvers mean you never die. That's a fair trade, I think.