Arcane Spellsurge, spontaneous metamagic and action economy

[Ger. Bessa]

Hello everyone in the Playground ! I was thinking of Arcane Spellsurge since we recently have seen long (and illustrated) discussions about Wizards and Sorcerers.

To those who do not know the spell, it's a buff from the Sor/Wiz list that shortens the casting time of spells. Notably full round casting spells are now cast as simple actions, while simple action casting and swift action casting spells are now cast as swift actions. It's good because it's basically Quicken Spell for all your spells.

The main issue is that, since most spells are simple action (before spellsurge) and you only have one simple action and one swift action per turn you could usually only cast one (previously) simple action spell and maybe one (previously) full round spell (like Summon Monster).

It is often said that sorcerers are better users of this spell because they can use a "free" metamagic like Invisible Spell to lengthen the (under AS) second quickened spell back to a simple or full round action, after you already used your swift action.
The ACF "metamagic user" is then used to control wich spell remains as a swift (the empowerd twinmaxed orb) action and which one you lengthen (the true strike).

This explanation comes from the original build known as "the Mailman". Google "Mailman sorcerer 3.5" if you don't know this old classic of damage dealing. (The article/thread/presentation actually classes as a "bad" option the "Rapid Metamagic" feat because you loose the control over the casting time granted by "on the fly" metamagic).

But as I'm a ravid wizard fan (but I don't hate sorcerers, they are just... ok, I guess ?), I remembered seing once that you could ready an action that was simple, move, swift or free (it may have been a mistake, from either that post or me).

I verified the SRD but it only mentions simple, move and free. Yet quickened spells are free actions in the PHB. Was there any ruling/errata/rudisplorking that would allow for a readied swift action ?

In that case it would allow for
1-Be under Arcane Spellsurge
2-Cast true strike as swift.
3-Ready an orb for just after the end of turn as simple.

Note that it's still not as strong as truly casting two spells in one turn since you let somebody else's turn to start, a bit like giving priority to the oponent in MtG.

Again, the RAI is that swift actions are quick to do but as mentally straining as simple ones. It could probably be house ruled either way but I wanted to know if there was anything from RAW.

Edit : Is a quickened spell still a free action or a swift action now ?

Edit ++: Sorry for the "simple action", it's the french word.

[Brova]

Quick pointer: it's standard, not simple.

I think the best way to use arcane spellsurge for action economy as a Wizard is with Uncanny Forethought. Forethoughting a spell you haven't mastered is a full round action to cast, reduced to a standard by arcane spellsurge. Then you can cast mastered spells or prepared spells with your swift action.

[Derjuin]

You only get one swift action per turn and you can only use them on your own turn (rules compendium, pg 7), so if you use a swift action to cast your True Strike spell under an Arcane Spellsurge, you no longer have a swift action to ready, as you have already used it. You would have to wait until your next turn to ready another swift action. Actions that take up the same amount of time as a swift action, but can be used on others' turns, are called immediate actions (see Feather Fall) but still consume your swift action for the turn.

Uncanny Forethought works pretty well for wizards, however.

[Ger. Bessa]

Thanks for the quick answers to both of you.

I see that is in fact inherited from the Quicken Spell feat since its formulation actually forbade a wizard to ready a quickened spell he had prepared if he already had one cast on the turn, while he could have readied a not quickened one.

To be honest I kind of dislike uncanny foRethought. strAnge (Very much so, yes) I know since hAlruaan elDer is one of my favourite PrCs along with magelord and both have arcane (spell ?) mastery as the heart of their concept.

To me it was intented as "bbeg caster can cast from his list and players can't call BS on the dm". That and "Yes he did prepare that very specific spell that counters the party's strategy that they just made".

I often had stingy DMs (both in wbl and downtime) so my spellbook wasn't as full as I would have liked. I like builds where everything you can do are in the class features.

[LordDrako]

No, Uncanny you need full round to use reserved slot to cast spell. Like Cleric, but, they use your preparation slot spontantly heal.
Uncanny you dont replace the cast time of the spell.

[Dysart]

Also in Pathfinder (not sure about 3.5) if you use an Immediate action then on your next turn you can't use a swift action.

Also I believe readied actions can't be held till the next "round" of initiative.

[JustIgnoreMe]

No, Uncanny you need full round to use reserved slot to cast spell. Like Cleric, but, they use your preparation slot spontantly heal.
Uncanny you dont replace the cast time of the spell.
{citation needed}

[sleepyphoenixx]

No, Uncanny you need full round to use reserved slot to cast spell. Like Cleric, but, they use your preparation slot spontantly heal.
Uncanny you dont replace the cast time of the spell.

That's just flat-out wrong.

...as a full-round action, you can use a
reserved slot to cast any spell that you know.
...

There isn't really room for interpretation here. Full-round action, spell is cast.
You are limited by your intelligence modifier, but having 5+ spontaneous spells a day should be sufficient unless you somehow prepare only useless crap otherwise.

[Ger. Bessa]

Hey Draco.

Please don't start that argument again in this thread. Uncanny Forethought does allow to CAST the spell in one full round action.

But general vs specific, who wins ? Uncanny Forethought or Arcane Spellsurge ? (The feats allows you to cast the spell as a full round and AS wants to shorten it, but I think the feat is what sets the casting time).

So UF + AS : full round or standard ?

I know I'm gonna get swordsaged, I just saw the alert for a reply. (A reply for my first thread ! Where is all this positive energy coming from !)

[dextercorvia]

The problem with Uncanny Forethought inside of Arcane Fusion is that they are both replacements of the Casting Time, and neither interact with each other the way we would like.

Uncanny lets you spend a full round action to cast a spell regardless of the casting time.

Arcane Fusion reduces the casting time of a spell with a casting time of 1 full round to a standard action. The messy wording in Arcane Fusion (which it inherits from Rapid Spell) is strange because it doesn't make a distinction between full round action and 1 round casting time.

Uncanny requires you to spend the full round to cast the spell, even if Arcane fusion would have reduced the casting time. (For example, you can use Uncanny Forethought to cast Celerity as a Full round action if it isn't a mastered spell.) The only way to use Uncanny Forethought to get around Arcane Fusions reduction (and still have your move action available) is to use your Mastered spells. Since Uncanny Forethought is going to require you to use a standard action to expend the slot and cast the spell (again regardless of the casting time of the spell).

[LordDrako]

So,Cleric and druids, cast instantly all heal spells and summons =)
You need full round to use reserved slot to cast.
Cleric converty spontaneously your prepared slot to cast heal.

This is clearly abilited to cast the new spell now.
It dont replace the cast time =)

[atemu1234]

So,Cleric and druids, cast instantly all heal spells and summons =)
You need full round to use reserved slot to cast.
Cleric converty spontaneously your prepared slot to cast heal.

This is clearly abilited to cast the new spell now.
It dont replace the cast time =)

... I'm sorry. I cannot make heads or tails of this. Please explain.

[LordDrako]

Full round to use the reserved slot. Now you can cast the "new spell". Full round + cast time your spell.
If spell mastery spell, standard action + cast time of your spell

Cleric, convert spontaneouly your prepared slot to CAST heal
Druid, convert spontaenouly your prepared slot to CAST summons
It dont replace the cast time of your spells.


If is clearly focused, when you identify the enemy. You have more versatility than your fixed spells.
Or use time stop, to prepare spells for the new enemy.

Uncanny Genesis

Full round + cast time of genesis.

[Gün]

There is no replacing in the feat description.

You just cast the spell in full round or standard action. (Depends on spells picked for spell mastery)

And no Uncanny Forethought Genesis : Full Round Action. (Or standart if you pick genesis for spell mastery)

It is broken for spells with long casting times. But your wishful thinking will not change that.

[Pippin]

I can't believe he started this again.

[LordDrako]

When preparing your daily allotment of spells, you can reserve a number of spell slots equal to your Intelligence modifier. As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know. The spell is resolved as normal, but for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast

As a full-round action, you can USE a RESERVED SLOT to cast any spell=Correct

You cast any spell tha you know As a full-round action = Incorrect

.

[TheIronGolem]

As a full-round action, you can USE a RESERVED SLOT to cast any spell=Correct

You cast any spell tha you know As a full-round action = Incorrect

.

"Use a reserved slot to cast a spell" == "Cast a spell"

[Flickerdart]

Cleric, convert spontaneouly your prepared slot to CAST heal
Druid, convert spontaenouly your prepared slot to CAST summons
It dont replace the cast time of your spells.
It doesn't change the casting time because there's no text that specifies that it does. It just says "instead of the spell you had prepared, cast a cure spell." Without any other information, we follow the standard rules for casting those spells - as a standard action.

Uncanny Forethought, on the other hand, says "instead of the empty slot, cast any spell you know." However, there is additional information - you cast the spell as a full-round action. So that's what we do.

[LordDrako]

"Use a reserved slot to cast a spell" == "Cast a spell"


"As full round, use a reserved slot to cast a spell " dont is "cast a spell as full round"

[Gün]

Actually, it is. :smallsigh:

[RolkFlameraven]

When preparing your daily allotment of spells, you can reserve a number of spell slots equal to your Intelligence modifier. As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know. The spell is resolved as normal, but for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast

As a full-round action, you can USE a RESERVED SLOT to cast any spell=Correct

You cast any spell tha you know As a full-round action = Incorrect

.

Please do not start this again, the last thread when this happened got locked.

2nd I'm going to use a quote from Star War's EU books here.

'If someone calls you a hutt, ignore them, if another person calls you a hutt start to wonder. If a third person calls you a hutt buy a drool bucket and start stockpiling spice.'

You have been called a 'hutt' about this by far more then three people. The rules are more then a decade old and as you seem to be the only person with this idea about how it works, that REALLY should tell you something.

and lastly your sig should really be 'The sorcerer king plays with magic and your mind' that had been bugging me for a while.

[LordDrako]

Clerics and Druids can use instanly heal and inflict and summons, converting all your prepared slot, they will be overpower. lol


To cast= abilited to cast
To cast dont is replace the cast time.

[Deadline]

Clerics and Druids can use instanly heal and summons, converting all your prepared slot, they will be overpower. lol

Can you provide your rules citation for this or your other interpretation? Because all you've posted so far are additional constraints or benefits that you've made up - nowhere in the text does it say what you are claiming.

Edit - Please provide your native language rules text if necessary, perhaps the issue lies in the text you have available.

[eggynack]

"As full round, use a reserved slot to cast a spell " dont is "cast a spell as full round"
Those two things are, in fact, the same thing. The only difference between the two is that the second version lacks the caveat of how you're casting it, and the fact that you're using a reserved slot doesn't impact casting time.

[LordDrako]

Using reserved slot= full round
Now you need cast the spell.

[eggynack]

Using reserved slot= full round
Now you need cast the spell.
Again, that's just not what the feat says. The feat says you cast using a full round action, not that you do some replacement into the slot with a full round action. You're just completely misreading the text of the feat.

[LordDrako]

The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

to cast= Abilited to cast

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Using reserved slot= full round
Now you need cast the spell.

The full text in question:


Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know. The spell is resolved as normal, but for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

The bolded section is important. We take a full-round action to cast any spell we know. That spell is resolved as normal. Resolution occurs after casting, which is taken care of during the full round action to cast the spell.

The language is very clear on this point.

[Flickerdart]

Using reserved slot= full round
Now you need cast the spell.
I don't know what translation of Uncanny Forthought you're reading, but it's clearly misleading you. The English text is very clear.

There is no action cost to replace your reserved slot with a spell you know. The full-round action is to cast that spell from that slot.

Clerics and druids still have to use a standard action to cast cures and summons because they cast the spells normally, and a standard action is their normal casting time. It costs them no action to "swap" the spell they had prepared for a cure or summon, however.

[LordDrako]

To cast, yes, you need cast it.
Full round + cast time

[eggynack]

The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

to cast= Abilited to cast
Again, no. To cast means to cast. Again, the cure spell has no text replacing its normal casting time, so again, you use the normal casting time. Making the same unsupported claims over and over and over again won't give you any traction.

[Flickerdart]

To cast, yes, you need cast it.
Full round + cast time
No.

You do not need to cast a spell before you cast the spell.

[LordDrako]

Clerics and druids still have to use a standard action to cast cures and summons because they cast the spells normally, and a standard action is their normal casting time. It costs them no action to "swap" the spell they had prepared for a cure or summon, however.

Non sense, to cast, they can convert your prepared spells to cast any heal or inflict spell.
They still need cast the spell.

So, you need full round first
To cast= Abilited to cast


"My God will want to take away the uncanny? I'll be sad" :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

Non sense, to cast, they can convert your prepared spells to cast any heal or inflict spell.

So, you need full round first
Are you now saying clerics and druids need a full round action to convert their spells into cures and summons? Because that's also wrong.

[LordDrako]

No they convert spontaneouly, no action. You need full round action first to CAST any spell.

You dont cast any spell as full-round. :smallwink:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You need full round action first to CAST any spell.

I'm...legitimately confused here.

"Cast" in D&D has a specific meaning, and occupies a single action. The steps are written out as Choose a spell and Cast the spell. There are no other steps.

So the text "Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know" does indeed mean that the spell is cast during that full-round action.

It's a really clear, cut-and-dry rules case.

[Gün]

Point me the conversion part of Uncanny Forethought please.

[RolkFlameraven]

Are you now saying clerics and druids need a full round action to convert their spells into cures and summons? Because that's also wrong.

His thoughts are that if we use uncanny as it is written to cast as a full round then Clerics and Druids can now use Cure/SNA as free actions because they 'lose' spells as a free action.

He has presented nothing to really back this up, but that is his stance on the matter.

[LordDrako]

I'm...legitimately confused here.

"Cast" in D&D has a specific meaning, and occupies a single action. The steps are written out as Choose a spell and Cast the spell. There are no other steps.

So the text "Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know" does indeed mean that the spell is cast during that full-round action.

It's a really clear, cut-and-dry rules case.

You need full round to use the slot to CAST.
You need full round + time cast of spell.

[RedMage125]

How is "you use a reserved slot to CAST a spell" not CASTING a spell?

To wit: When is casting a spell not CASTING a spell?

Answer: Never. Lord Drako is wrong.

Drako: this is not a thread by "wizard fans", you have someone playing a SORCERER who agrees that this is how it works.

My question for you is this: you are studying engineering, you must have an understanding of math and logic, right? If everyone else but you agrees that Uncanny Forethought works one way, and you think it works another, what is more likely? That you (who does NOT natively speak the language that UF was written in), are the ONLY PERSON EVER who understands the way it works...
or
That you are wrong, and all the people who DO natively speak the language are correct?

From a pure statistics point of view, which is more LIKELY?

[TheIronGolem]

Non sense, to cast, they can convert your prepared spells to cast any heal or inflict spell.
They still need cast the spell.

So, you need full round first
To cast= Abilited to cast


"My God will want to take away the uncanny? I'll be sad" :smalleek:

No, "to cast = to cast".

The feat does not say "Spend a full-round action to grant yourself the ability to cast any spell". It would have said that, or something very close to that, if it was intended to work the way you're claiming.

Uncanny Forethought is a broken feat. I don't like it, and wouldn't allow it in any game I ran. But just because I don't like it doesn't change what it says. We're discussing the rules of the game as they are. What they should be is an entirely different discussion.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

His thoughts are that if we use uncanny as it is written to cast as a full round then Clerics and Druids can now use Cure/SNA as free actions because they 'lose' spells as a free action.

Specific overrides General rule is in effect here. Uncanny Forethought specifies the action type as full round. Cleric and Druid abilities don't, which means they default to the normal casting time of the spell in question. Another cut-and-dry ruling.

[LordDrako]

Non, broken, no!
Useful only

Now cleric and druid will use free action to cast any inflic/heal, summon
Now will cast genesis as full round.

Ok ok. :smallyuk:
Not, dont care, have things more powerfull than it.



Convert spontaounly your prepared slot to cast= Free actions inflict/heal/summon
As full round to use reserved slot to cast any spell= use all spell as full round.

To cast= Abilited to cast.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Drako: this is not a thread by "wizard fans", you have someone playing a SORCERER who agrees that this is how it works.

Yeah...perhaps I should clarify, in light of all these threads:

I prefer Sorcerers to Wizards. I find them more flavorful to play and more enjoyable. They feel less like work.

But I'm also a die-hard rules guy, and so I base my assertions on what the rules support.

[Pippin]

Drako, again, I don't want to sound rude but your English is bad. You admitted it yourself. So: don't tell others how to read something written in English. They understand it better than you do.

:smallsigh:

[LordDrako]

Convert spontaounly your prepared slot to cast= Free actions inflict/heal/summon
As full round to use reserved slot to cast any spell= use all spell as full round.
Wizard logic

To cast= Abilited to cast.

With this logic, still have more powerfull things.

[RedMage125]

Drako:
What is more likely?

That you are the ONLY PERSON who understands something printed in your non-native language?

OR

That everyone else (that DO natively speak the language it was printed in) disagrees with you because you misunderstood?

[LordDrako]

Its really easy to understand in english and in portuguese.

[Pippin]

Drako:
What is more likely?

That you are the ONLY PERSON who understands something printed in your non-native language?

OR

That everyone else (that DO natively speak the language it was printed in) disagrees with you because you misunderstood?
The former, obviously.

[Gün]

Drako just started over again.

It is like The Sorcerer King is playing with our minds. :smallsigh:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Convert spontaounly your prepared slot to cast= Free actions inflict/heal/summon

Not true. See my above post about Specific Rules and General Rules. Cleric spontaneous casting falls under the General Rules category for spell casting time, due to the lack of a Specific Rule.


To cast= Abilited to cast.

Correct. "Ability to Cast" isn't "To Cast." The former means that you are ABLE to cast something: having 3rd level spells gives you "The Ability to Cast 3rd level spells" for the purposes of feats or Prestige Classes, for example.

"To Cast" means "Cast. Resolve this spell's effects."

[Flickerdart]

Uncanny Forethought is a broken feat. I don't like it, and wouldn't allow it in any game I ran. But just because I don't like it doesn't change what it says. We're discussing the rules of the game as they are. What they should be is an entirely different discussion.
"Cast any spell you know" is nasty and broken, but what's wrong with "cast any mastered spell INT times a day"?


Now cleric and druid will use free action to cast any inflic/heal, summon
No, it's a standard action to cast a Cure Wounds spell. It doesn't cost them any actions to switch from a prepared spell to a Cure Wounds spell, though.


Now will cast genesis as full round.
Yep. Genesis as a full round action when cast through Uncanny Forethought.

[RolkFlameraven]

Drako, I prefer Psions over Wiz or Sor, and I'm telling you, that is not how it works.

A cleric or a druid 'lose' or 'convert' the spell as part of casting the cure/inflect/summon spell.

To use the feat you 'lose/convert/fill' the empty reserve slot as part of casting that spell as a full round action.

and again your sig should be 'The sorcerer king plays with magic and your mind'.

[LordDrako]

If wizards fan want play with the magic and tendencious interpretation.

Knowstone>Uncanny

Cry

Its dont is limited.

[Gün]

Drako, I prefer Psions over Wiz or Sor, and I'm telling you, that is not how it works.

A cleric or a druid 'lose' or 'convert' the spell as part of casting the cure/inflect/summon spell.

To use the feat you 'lose/convert/fill' the empty reserve slot as part of casting that spell as a full round action.

and again your sig should be 'The sorcerer king plays with magic and your mind'.

I prefer Warblades over everything. (Warder is my new favourite though. Thanks Dreamscarred Press <3)



Its dont is limited.

Now that is true. If you want to attack Uncanny Forethought, attack within the rules. Don't make up something please.

[Hellborn_Blight]

So besides all this nonsense over what is a pretty clear issue, made opaque by a language barrier, that feat seems pretty tits. Makes Wizards viable again for spellwarp snipers, as the rules compendium change made full round actions the superior way to deal precision damage. This of course gave the edge to the spontaneous camp,as any metamagiced spell could now get precision damage on every attack roll.

So here is a question, can you apply metamagics to a spell cast with Uncanny Forethought?

[RolkFlameraven]

If wizards fan want play with the magic and tendencious interpretation.

Knowstone>Uncanny

Cry

Its dont is limited.

Kinda

No its not limited besides the amount of spells per day that the Sor has at its level or higher but its not quite a versatile as 'any spell in your spell book INT mod/day' that the feat can be.

The big problem with knowstones is they are dragon mag and may or may not be allowed into a game.

Edit: In pathfinder Warder is by far my favorite right now as well, having so much fun with mine.

[RedMage125]

If wizards fan want play with the magic and tendencious interpretation.

Knowstone>Uncanny

Cry

Its dont is limited.

Lord Drako play with TENDENTIOUS interpretation, he is biased against any who tell him he is wrong, especially against wizards.

Knowstones were banned from the build you were submitting.

So...
Uncanny is better than a 20 pound boulder, and the boulder is better than Know stones, because know stones were banned.

The Sorcerer King cries while lying about magic and losing his mind.

[LordDrako]

Tendencious interpretation too.

Lets go, Knowstone and runestaves. Lets play with the magic

Cry, lets see how is more powerful Ok?
I am fighting without it, but wizards fan want see. lets go.

[atemu1234]

Kinda

No its not limited besides the amount of spells per day that the Sor has at its level or higher but its not quite a versatile as 'any spell in your spell book INT mod/day' that the feat can be.

The big problem with knowstones is they are dragon mag and may or may not be allowed into a game.

Edit: In pathfinder Warder is by far my favorite right now as well, having so much fun with mine.

Not in this competition, they won't.

[Ger. Bessa]

Once more, please don't make that thread get locked. Especially since all my questions have yet to be answered (appart from the first one).

So please :
-UF+Arcane Spellsurge (not fusion). What is the casting time of, say an uncany fireball under AS ?
-Any onther way to change/rudisplork the casting time of a spell quickened by AS ?

And a new one : Could the feat Elder Giant Magic increase the casting time, allowing doublecasting by swift + full round ?

To Draco, you might be getting your ideas from a CD divine feat that lets you convert spells but doing so costs you an action. I do believe that there are also a few magic items that allow you conversions at the cost of swifts. This is not the case. The spell slot is already reserved, and does not countains anything to be converted/prepared/readied. Full round = your spell.

And please no pics, or I'll post a ravid pic.

[LordDrako]

Atemu, what you say about uncanny?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

-UF+Arcane Spellsurge (not fusion). What is the casting time of, say an uncany fireball under AS ?

As written, if you don't have Fireball prepared, I would say it's still a Full-Round action. The text of Uncanny Forethoughtt doesn't say anything about the spell's own casting time: merely that, as a full-round action, you may cast any spell you know.

So Fireball would have a casting time of 1 Swift Action if you had it prepared, but would still take 1 full-round action if you cast it through Uncanny Forethought.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Yeah, guys go have your stupid argument, that everyone involved in is gonna lose, over PM. You are derailing a thread.

[Pippin]

and lastly your sig should really be 'The sorcerer king plays with magic and your mind' that had been bugging me for a while.
That's exactly what is written in his signature, though. Did you fail your saving throw?


-UF+Arcane Spellsurge (not fusion). What is the casting time of, say an uncany fireball under AS ?
The consensus is that you downgrade the casting time induced by Uncanny Forethought, but some people would argue that Arcane Spellsurge doesn't change it. So, it's up to your DM I suppose.

[eggynack]

That's exactly what is written in his signature, though. Did you fail your saving throw?
No, his signature is, "The Sorcerer King play with the magic and your mind." As was noted, "play" should be changed to "plays", and the second "the" should be omitted.

[RolkFlameraven]

That's exactly what is written in his signature, though. Did you fail your saving throw?

No, you failed a spot check. What he has is 'The sorcerer king play with the magic and your mind' its a small change but it flows better.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The consensus is that you downgrade the casting time induced by Uncanny Forethought, but some people would argue that Arcane Spellsurge doesn't change it. So, it's up to your DM I suppose.

I can't find any support for that though...I'm not sure Uncanny Forethought actually is giving you a "casting time," per say. It's more of a flat action cost that allows you to cast a spell rather than a full "casting time." At least I believe that's the RAW supported argument.

[dextercorvia]

Sorry, I said fusion instead of spellsurge in my post. I mix those up all the time.

[RolkFlameraven]

I can't find any support for that though...I'm not sure Uncanny Forethought actually is giving you a "casting time," per say. It's more of a flat action cost that allows you to cast a spell rather than a full "casting time." At least I believe that's the RAW supported argument.

I would have to agree with this. But I'm AFB right now.

[Gün]

As written, if you don't have Fireball prepared, I would say it's still a Full-Round action. The text of Uncanny Forethoughtt doesn't say anything about the spell's own casting time: merely that, as a full-round action, you may cast any spell you know.

So Fireball would have a casting time of 1 Swift Action if you had it prepared, but would still take 1 full-round action if you cast it through Uncanny Forethought.

Nice ruling.

How does quicken spell interract with Uncanny Forethought by the way and rest of the metamagics?

Metamagic and Uncanny Forethought question is still unanswered.

[LordDrako]

With your fail interpretation of Uncanny:

How uncanny that no matter the cast time of the spell, the feat will be full round, how you want to use arcane spellsurge to it?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Nice ruling.

How does quicken spell interract with Uncanny Forethought by the way and rest of the metamagics?

Metamagic and Uncanny Forethought question is unanswered.

Meta-magic effects change the spell prior to casting time. If it's allowable to use meta-magic effects on an Uncanny Forethought spell (which I believe it is), they'll still be bound by that full-round casting time.

As an example: a Quickened Fireball is a 7th level spell, and requires a 7th level spell slot. You use Uncanny Forethought full-round action. Your next steps are to choose and cast a spell (as per spellcasting, those are your steps). So you choose Quickened Fireball, but you're still locked into the full-round action required to activate Uncanny Forethought.

[Pippin]

No, you failed a spot check. What he has is 'The sorcerer king play with the magic and your mind' its a small change but it flows better.
I know, I was simply implying that he was already playing with your mind :smallsigh:


I can't find any support for that though...I'm not sure Uncanny Forethought actually is giving you a "casting time," per say. It's more of a flat action cost that allows you to cast a spell rather than a full "casting time." At least I believe that's the RAW supported argument.
It's a question I asked not too long ago and there seemed to be an argument for both sides. But if you browse the Web, Uncanny Forethought and Arcane Spellsurge working together seems to be supported by most people. That is, unless I've missed some major threads.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

With your fail interpretation of Uncanny:

How uncanny that no matter the cast time of the spell, the feat will be full round, how you want to use arcane spellsurge to it?

The point of my argument is that Arcane Spellsurge doesn't work with Uncanny Forethought cast spells at all.


It's a question I asked not too long ago and there seemed to be an argument for both sides. But if you browse the Web, Uncanny Forethought and Arcane Spellsurge working together seems to be supported by most people. That is, unless I've missed some major threads.

"Supported by most people" doesn't mean that they're right. I'll have to look some of those threads up myself...I find any ruling in favor of that interaction to be tenuous at best.

[LordDrako]

Meta-magic effects change the spell prior to casting time. If it's allowable to use meta-magic effects on an Uncanny Forethought spell (which I believe it is), they'll still be bound by that full-round casting time.

As an example: a Quickened Fireball is a 7th level spell, and requires a 7th level spell slot. You use Uncanny Forethought full-round action. Your next steps are to choose and cast a spell (as per spellcasting, those are your steps). So you choose Quickened Fireball, but you're still locked into the full-round action required to activate Uncanny Forethought.

About the fail interpretation of wizard fans. The feat fixed full round to cast any spell.

You still need prepare your reserved slot, and your respective slot.

[Ger. Bessa]

As written, if you don't have Fireball prepared, I would say it's still a Full-Round action. The text of Uncanny Forethoughtt doesn't say anything about the spell's own casting time: merely that, as a full-round action, you may cast any spell you know.

So Fireball would have a casting time of 1 Swift Action if you had it prepared, but would still take 1 full-round action if you cast it through Uncanny Forethought.

Eh, if I say uncanny fireball, I mean a fireball cast with a reserved slot with UF. That's also my feeling for the combinaison, but there is always that "apply whatever you want in whatever order you feel gets you the most cake to have and eat it" and I don't know if I would apply to remplacement effects (that is not a d&d rule term, I picked it from Magic : the Gathering wich boast a heavy but definitive rule about anything. Whoever heard of layers and Opalescence/Humility knows what I speak of).

I may not be fluent with english, but three verbs in a four words sentence ("No its dont is") can and did hurt my eyes. Please Draco try to make an effort.

"Do you take me for a fool ? Did you think I wouldn't notice the running sentence ?"

Any idea about Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xendrik) ?

EDIT : there wasn't any ravid in this post.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

About the fail interpretation of wizard fans. The feat fixed full round to cast any spell.

It does allow full-round casting of any spell. It doesn't (to my knowledge...currently doing some research) interact with Arcane Spellsurge to create less than full-round casting of any spell.

[LordDrako]

According to Stupid interpretation Uncanny does not interact with the cast time of spells, the feat said to be of full round.

But, this feat not work. Full round + Cast time of spell.



Atemu, what you say about Uncanny interpretation?

[Gün]

Meta-magic effects change the spell prior to casting time. If it's allowable to use meta-magic effects on an Uncanny Forethought spell (which I believe it is), they'll still be bound by that full-round casting time.

As an example: a Quickened Fireball is a 7th level spell, and requires a 7th level spell slot. You use Uncanny Forethought full-round action. Your next steps are to choose and cast a spell (as per spellcasting, those are your steps). So you choose Quickened Fireball, but you're still locked into the full-round action required to activate Uncanny Forethought.

It looks solid. However I am a little bit sad now I cannot throw any spell I know as a swift action with this feat.

There are other ways though :smallamused:

[Ger. Bessa]

Meta-magic effects change the spell prior to casting time. If it's allowable to use meta-magic effects on an Uncanny Forethought spell (which I believe it is), they'll still be bound by that full-round casting time.

As an example: a Quickened Fireball is a 7th level spell, and requires a 7th level spell slot. You use Uncanny Forethought full-round action. Your next steps are to choose and cast a spell (as per spellcasting, those are your steps). So you choose Quickened Fireball, but you're still locked into the full-round action required to activate Uncanny Forethought.

Quickened fireball is a 3rd level spell and is blocked by Globe of invulnerability (lesser). But quickened fireball isn't a spell you know (it's not even a spell on the sor/wiz list).

An alternative rule system (an encart in CAr if I remember well) suggest the possibility of copying spells affected by a metamagic feat THAT YOU HAVE in your spellbook or taking a spell known slot. But quickened fireball isn't a sor/wiz spell so you probably don't know it.

EDIT : now there isn't no ravid.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Quickened fireball is a 3rd level spell and is blocked by Globe of invulnerability (lesser). But quickened fireball isn't a spell you know (it's not even a spell on the sor/wiz list).

My apologies: I meant 7th level slot. It's considered a "spell" in the same way a Wizard needs to specifically prepare a Quickened Fireball, and a Sorcerer needs to specify Empowered Ray of Frost when casting.

Thought that does raise a good point: I'm not sure if you can apply meta-magic feats spontaneously through Uncanny Forethought. You are correct that it's not technically a "spell we know."

[RolkFlameraven]

It looks solid. However I am a little bit sad now I cannot throw any spell I know as a swift action with this feat.

There are other ways though :smallamused:

Heh, it makes me like the feat a bit more myself. Its also nice to see that my interpretation seems to be more then just me.:smallsmile:

I would still house rule it so that spells with a casting time of longer then a full round don't have their casting times reduced but my players are hardly at the level where that would come up often.

[LordDrako]

Wizard cant use Metamagic without preparation.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Atemu, what you say about Uncanny interpretation?

This is not the thread to ask him about that: this thread is only tangentially related to your contest.

That said, I suspect he'll agree with me: Arcane Spellsurge won't reduce the casting time of Uncanny Forethought spells (haven't found enough evidence online to convince me that interaction is allowable), but it will allow any spell to be cast as a full-round action.

[LordDrako]

Uncanny, is like cleric, you still need cast the spell.
I am cleraly not change it, Wizards fun will be angry if they lose it.


Atemu what you think about Uncanny Interpretation?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Wizard cant use Metamagic without preparation.

UPDATE TO MY PREVIOUS POST

I fully believe applying Meta-magic effects to Uncanny Forethought spells is legal, based on these clauses in the Player's Handbook discussing Meta-magic: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Also, from the Sorcerer / Bard section of the same: They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them.

While a pure RAW reading would disallow Wizards with access to spell-on-demand abilities, "Spontaneous Casting" (and methods of acquiring it) wasn't an in-game term during the writing of the original 3.5 Player's Handbook. These rules seem pretty clear on the idea that, when you choose a spell to cast, you can utilize meta-magic on it, since the choice is "When you cast the spell."

That implies you can Uncanny Forethought Fireball, then, when casting it, choose to instead expend a 4th level spell slot for an Empowered Fireball instead. It's not purely RAW, but the terminology in question didn't exist when the book in question was published, so I think it's pretty obviously grandfathered in.

[LordDrako]

Please, never compare with cleric. It will be disaster.
Full round + cast time of spell.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Please, never compare with cleric. It will be disaster.
Full round + cast time of spell.

LordDrako: this isn't the thread for that discussion. If you want to have a Private Message conversation with me about the subject, please send me one and I'll explain the difference. Let's not derail this thread.

[atemu1234]

Uncanny, is like cleric, you still need cast the spell.
I am cleraly not change it, Wizards fun will be angry if they lose it.


Atemu what you think about Uncanny Interpretation?


According to Stupid interpretation Uncanny does not interact with the cast time of spells, the feat said to be of full round.

But, this feat not work. Full round + Cast time of spell.



Atemu, what you say about Uncanny interpretation?


Atemu, what you say about uncanny?

Yeesh, I take a half an hour nap and THEN people ask me questioms :smallbiggrin:.

I'm going to review this but so far nothing supports your interpretation here, LordDrako. I'll be needing a few minutes.

[Ger. Bessa]

UPDATE TO MY PREVIOUS POST

I fully believe applying Meta-magic effects to Uncanny Forethought spells is legal, based on these clauses in the Player's Handbook discussing Meta-magic: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Also, from the Sorcerer / Bard section of the same: They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them.

While a pure RAW reading would disallow Wizards with access to spell-on-demand abilities, "Spontaneous Casting" (and methods of acquiring it) wasn't an in-game term during the writing of the original 3.5 Player's Handbook. These rules seem pretty clear on the idea that, when you choose a spell to cast, you can utilize meta-magic on it, since the choice is "When you cast the spell."

That implies you can Uncanny Forethought Fireball, then, when casting it, choose to instead expend a 4th level spell slot for an Empowered Fireball instead. It's not purely RAW, but the terminology in question didn't exist when the book in question was published, so I think it's pretty obviously grandfathered in.

Those are class features. A cleric can, a sorcerer can. Nowhere is written that a wizard can, nor that uncanny forethought alows to cast the spell "as a [sorcerer]". A Sublime Chord could because he would cast "as a bard/sorcerer" (can't remember afb but if "as bard" then he can't silent spell hiq spells)

And empowerd fireball requires a 5th level spell slot (and is a 3rd level spell). Wizard is not wiz x/inc 10. Some builds use other PrCs.

So no, it's not really RAW.

And I think I'll planar bind a lord draco with my next wizard. He can cause more mess in fifteen minutes than a CL20 animate object.

[LordDrako]

Cleric, druid = to cast any spell, they still need cast the spell.
Nothing suported? :smallyuk:

[RedMage125]

Meta-magic effects change the spell prior to casting time. If it's allowable to use meta-magic effects on an Uncanny Forethought spell (which I believe it is), they'll still be bound by that full-round casting time.

As an example: a Quickened Fireball is a 7th level spell, and requires a 7th level spell slot. You use Uncanny Forethought full-round action. Your next steps are to choose and cast a spell (as per spellcasting, those are your steps). So you choose Quickened Fireball, but you're still locked into the full-round action required to activate Uncanny Forethought.

IF metamagic is allowed with Uncanny Forethought, that's how I would rule it, and I stick pretty closely to RAW.

However, the rules don't explicitly allow metamagic to work with UF, so I would also be inclined to disallow that.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Those are class features. A cleric can, a sorcerer can. Nowhere is written that a wizard can, nor that uncanny forethought alows to cast the spell "as a [sorcerer]". A Sublime Chord could because he would cast "as a bard/sorcerer" (can't remember afb but if "as bard" then he can't silent spell hiq spells)

Correct. There's no ruling for something like that because the ability for other classes to GET equivalent casting methods didn't exist, and the Player's Handbook wasn't updated efficiently.

As I said: a pure RAW ruling doesn't allow it. Personally, I think that it is allowable based on how casting functions, but it's not 100% RAW defensible. I did mention that.


And empowerd fireball requires a 5th level spell slot (and is a 3rd level spell).

Forgetting my Meta-magic levels. Don't use 'em much, personally. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Cleric, druid = to cast any spell, they still need cast the spell.
Nothing suported? :smallyuk:

That's an apples to oranges comparison. It is a full round action to cast a spell you know. Nothing more, nothing less.

This gif encapsulates how I feel right now...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/18/e9/bc18e9823b554363afde761fa571610a.jpg

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*snip*

Tried to make it easy for you: I pretty thoroughly went through the rules on all the interactions. :smalltongue:

[LordDrako]

Nonsense, its a GREATER comparation, when they spontaneously convert prepared slot TO CAST any spell!
More than own interpretation = You cast the spell as a full round action. :smallcool:

full round to you use reserved slot to CAST any spell


Cleric= Spontenouly
Wizard= Fullround action

Greater comparation

[Pippin]

My opinion is that you can downgrade the casting time induced by Uncanny Forethought with Arcane Spellsurge, but you wouldn't be able to add metamagic in the spells you cast (regardless of Arcane Spellsurge).

It's a pity pretty much nobody agrees with me :smallsigh:

[Ger. Bessa]

Looks like my message was erased when I edited for precision, but I was quoted, so it's ok.

LordDrako, please stop this argument here. You have not given new elements in days and you make threads more messy than CL20 animate object at ecl 7. And once more UF doesn't convert anything.

Quid Elder Giant Magic ? What happens when you add one turn to a swift casting ? Or can you "add a turn" with EGM to a standard action casting that is removed by AS ? EGM lets you choose when you stop casting but AS makes the remplacement on the fly too.

I don't believe that SoX is OGL so I won't copy the feat, but I'd love to hear about it, since it can be used by anyone (even Wu Jens !) and would be a better feat tax than invisible spell (excepted when cooking with arcane thesis negative spell level adjustement cheese).

Yes. I'm French and I think that the last one stinks.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

My opinion is that you can downgrade the casting time induced by Uncanny Forethought with Arcane Spellsurge, but you wouldn't be able to add metamagic in the spells you cast (regardless of Arcane Spellsurge).

It's a pity pretty much nobody agrees with me :smallsigh:

I would agree with you in a heartbeat if Uncanny Forethought said anything about a casting time. It doesn't, and that's all Arcane Spellsurge cares about. The way Uncanny Forethought is written says to me that it's a flat-cost action that doesn't alter the spell's casting time, but merely allows you to circumvent it.

[dextercorvia]

[COLOR="#008080"]
While a pure RAW reading would disallow Wizards with access to spell-on-demand abilities, "Spontaneous Casting" (and methods of acquiring it) wasn't an in-game term during the writing of the original 3.5 Player's Handbook. These rules seem pretty clear on the idea that, when you choose a spell to cast, you can utilize meta-magic on it, since the choice is "When you cast the spell."

Nitpick: Spontaneous Casting is mentioned at least 4 times in the PHB, all pertaining to Cleric/Druid. I believe it is also in the Glossary, but I'm away from my actual PHB, and quoting the SRD.

Spontaneous Casting

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).


Spontaneous Casting

A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn’t prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower.


Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats

A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.


Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells

A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (one that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.
Spontaneous Casting of Summon Nature’s Ally Spells

A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. The divine energy of the spell that the summon nature’s ally spell substitutes for is converted into the summon spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

The meaning of Spontaneous Casting shifted over time, such that, by the end of 3.5, I don't think designers even remembered that Cleric and Druid has class features called Spontaneous casting. I honestly don't think they intended a bog standard Cleric to be able to pick up Versatile Spellcaster and cast spontaneously off the entire cleric list all day long. Same for Druid.

In the beginning, Sorcerer and Bard were simply casters who 'cast spells without preparation'. By Complete Arcane they were using spontaneous as a casual descriptor of Sorcerer/Bard casting, but in terms of class abilities and feat prereqs, they still referred to it as 'casting spells without preparation' (Cf. Warmage and Arcane Preparation).

[TheIronGolem]

"Cast any spell you know" is nasty and broken, but what's wrong with "cast any mastered spell INT times a day"?

Mostly it's the first part I object to, since it adds yet another "I do your job better than you do!" to the Wizard by making him a better Sorcerer than the Sorcerer. Since a Wizard can know any number of spells and can pick up new ones for a trivial cost, Uncanny Forethought essentially means you have spontaneous access to whatever you want. The idea that moving the casting time up to full-round (and that only if you don't have the spell Mastered) is a significant drag on the tactical flexibility this grants is laughable. It's takes the one concrete disadvantage that the Wizard has compared to the Sorcerer, and makes it all but irrelevant.

To a lesser extent, there is also this:


Yep. Genesis as a full round action when cast through Uncanny Forethought.

The lack of a "can't reduce casting time" clause is a pretty big loophole, letting you reduce minutes-or-hours-long casting times to a single full-round action (or even a standard).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Nitpick: Spontaneous Casting is mentioned at least 4 times in the PHB, all pertaining to Cleric/Druid. I believe it is also in the Glossary, but I'm away from my actual PHB, and quoting the SRD.

Well, yes. But notice that all those classes have Spontaneous Casting as a class feature. Hence it's understandable to refer to the ability. :smalltongue:

My point was more that "Spontaneous Casting" as a concept wasn't really entirely around then. Just as a feature on two classes.

[Killer Angel]

The full text in question:



The bolded section is important. We take a full-round action to cast any spell we know. That spell is resolved as normal. Resolution occurs after casting, which is taken care of during the full round action to cast the spell.

The language is very clear on this point.
Nice try, but he won't listen. :smallsigh:

[akahdrin]

Just thought I'd throw this out here, this Lord Drako guy came to my 3.5 group board and gave us this silly challenge and I wiped the floor with him without even using a caster. The level of butt hurt that he experienced was monumental.

We actually had a group of people that made characters to play against him and the DM running it didn't allow him to use the cheese as he saw fit. We did admit that his character was an interesting idea, but it didn't work out the way he thought. My character was completely legal and wasn't abusing or manipulating poor wording. He ended up rage quitting out after he saw my build and posting a bunch pictures of creepy men in their underwear.

He was all kinds of upset that his character didn't work the way he thought. I can't believe he came here and did this same stuff.

HERE (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99114294/DrakoLancer%20final%20english%20%28Salvo%20automat icamente%29%20Ice%20assassin.xls) is Hygor's (Lord Drako) character sheet from the duel. He was even more stupid there than he was here. I would say that everything he says is completely lacking any foundation and that he is a complete scrub.

HERE (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99114294/hygor.png) is a picture of the start of his nonsense, he was even worse in our threads than he was here if you can believe that.

Anyways, thanks to GitP for being such a great community and for always sparking a good debate and helping people with things that they don't quite understand. I don't post often, but it doesn't mean I'm not a frequent reader! He told me about a fool that was bragging about his sorcerer and then described the guy I had met recently. We couldn't stop laughing when I pointed out that I had already encountered him.

- Akahdrin

[Ger. Bessa]

And I just wanted answers to unclear mechanic issues... why did my thread had to become the clone of a closed thread ?

The sheet is weird, some of the skills are in english but there's also something else (portuguese?).

Since the thread has been upped, I ask again my question about Elder Giant Magic, split in 4 :

1-What is the casting time of swift invisibility when I increase the caster level by 1 with EGM?

2-I am under Arcane Spellsurge (AS) and I cast true strike. Can I use EGM to make this a full round action casting time true strike ?

3-I am under AS. What are my options when casting Channeled Pyroburst ?

4-I am under AS. I want to cast a stronger polar ray with EGM. By increasing the caster level by 1, the casting time should be 1 standard + 1round, reduced to 1 standard by AS. Possible or not ?

I think 1 and 2 are equivalent and 3 and 4 too. 4 might be impossible because you choose when you stop channeling as you channel, but I might be wrong.

[Emperor Tippy]

You only get one swift action per turn and you can only use them on your own turn (rules compendium, pg 7), so if you use a swift action to cast your True Strike spell under an Arcane Spellsurge, you no longer have a swift action to ready, as you have already used it. You would have to wait until your next turn to ready another swift action. Actions that take up the same amount of time as a swift action, but can be used on others' turns, are called immediate actions (see Feather Fall) but still consume your swift action for the turn.

Uncanny Forethought works pretty well for wizards, however.

That is slightly flawed. An immediate action cast on your turn eats your swift action for that turn. An immediate action cast when it is not your turn eats your swift action from your next turn.

What this means is that you can do the following: Swift Action, Move Action, Standard Action, end turn, Immediate Action.

[Ger. Bessa]

[RavidFanboyMode]Tippy on my thread. Oh My Pantheon Tippy is on my thread !!! [\RavidFanboyMode]

So I "could" nearly truestrike orb on one turn, but it would cost me the swift on next turn, and that is a bad deal under AS. Ok.

Since you have[Euphemism] a good understanding of the game [\Euphemism] could you give your opinion on Elder Giant Magic, please ?

[dextercorvia]

And I just wanted answers to unclear mechanic issues... why did my thread had to become the clone of a closed thread ?

The sheet is weird, some of the skills are in english but there's also something else (portuguese?).

Since the thread has been upped, I ask again my question about Elder Giant Magic, split in 4 :

1-What is the casting time of swift invisibility when I increase the caster level by 1 with EGM?

2-I am under Arcane Spellsurge (AS) and I cast true strike. Can I use EGM to make this a full round action casting time true strike ?

3-I am under AS. What are my options when casting Channeled Pyroburst ?

4-I am under AS. I want to cast a stronger polar ray with EGM. By increasing the caster level by 1, the casting time should be 1 standard + 1round, reduced to 1 standard by AS. Possible or not ?

I think 1 and 2 are equivalent and 3 and 4 too. 4 might be impossible because you choose when you stop channeling as you channel, but I might be wrong.

Elder Giant Magic and Channeled spells give you no additional benefit unless they are cast for the lengthened times.

If you cast a swift action spell with Elder Giant magic (+1) it will take affect at the beginning of your next turn.

[Ger. Bessa]

Drat, foiled again. EGM is really limited to out of battle buffing/shenanigans then.

Could you give an explanation though ? I'd like to know exactly what makes it not work. (Both in 2 and for 3/4).

It sounds less cheesy when you say normal casting time + 1turn - 1 turn than when you say Arcane thesis (invisible (-1) substitute fire (-1) substitute ice (-1) substitute acid (-1) substitute electricity (-1) persistant (+5) = persisted spell with no higher slot)

I wanted to give the trick to a Wu Jen buffer (Metal specialist + Greater Magic Weapon) since they get Arcane Spellsurge but not as many toys as wizards. I guess I'll have to use summons and called creatures to increase my actions then. Or use Arcane Spellsurge with Summon Monster spells.

So swift + full turn = swift + full turn. As a math teacher I should not be surprised but there is still this little touch of disappointment.

After all those who can understand abstract systems with ease are often those who enjoy breaking them.

Any other suggestion to play with action economy with AS ?

Any new curse is DM rule but could you curse a person so all the spells of, say, one specific school, gets increased casting time ? (It's obviously munchkinery when posted in this thread but who wouldn't slowban necromancy on Szass Tam ?)

[dextercorvia]

For each additional round that you extend the casting time, your effective caster level is increased by 1.

If you don't extend the casting time (even if you try to and something stops you) then you don't get the increase.



If you cast this spell as a swift action, it deals...

If you cast this spell as a standard action, it deals...

If you cast this spell as a full-round action, it deals...

If you spend 2 rounds casting this spell, it deals...


The spell doesn't care why you spent so long casting, it only cares how long you ended up casting for.

A UA variant conjurer with both Rapid Summoning and Spontaneous Summoning can play the sorcerer's metamagic game with Spellsurge. It costs your bonus slots and your familiar though, and you don't even get Abrupt Jaunt.

[Ger. Bessa]

I don't get your point with EGM, especially compared with channeled pyroburst.

Say you have not done anything on this turn. You cast a (basic) standard action casting. You decide not to cast it as a swift because you use EGM. The casting time now becomes 1 standard + 1 full turn (EGM) - 1 full turn (AS) = 1 standard. As you have spent 1 standard, you decide to cast it (at +1 CL). You still have your swift that turn.

My point is exactly in the text you quoted. EGM doesn't requires you to [b]spend[\b] extra turn casting the spell just as channeled pyroburst, just that you extend the casting time, wich could recieve other modifications.

I'm quite ceRtAin (Very much so In fact) that there is a thing in the rules compendium with "you can aDd modifiers in the most beneficial terms" and if your spell would have a casting time of more than one turn, AS reduces that casting time by one turn.

Note that at each moment where I decide to cast/wait more the casting time is the one imposed by AS. It's even the only moment when I can decide to keep going/cast the spell.

So please explain my fallacy (or maybe you did not réalise how I wanted to use those).

[dextercorvia]

I don't think stacking rules here, since that refers just to bonuses.

However, you are correct that EGM is not as clear cut as I tossed out there. I was focusing on the voluntarily increasing part, and not the part where it increased the casting time. Still in the case where you stated it, it would not work, since a casting time of a standard + 1 round is not one of the casting times on AS's list.

Now for an increase of +2 or +3, you could make the case, but then EGM is worded poorly. It's not like you increase the casting time through feat of will at the beginning, you increase the casting time by actually casting longer (hence the escalating concentration checks each round). I'm less sure there, because neither the spell, nor the feat are worded in a way that promotes interaction with other modifiers.

I would still lean to know for a 2-3 round increase, in the sense that the increased 'casting time' is supposed to be a cost, and if you are unable to pay it fully, you don't get the benefit. However, that is a ruling, and based on my perception of intent, rather than something I feel is clearly expressed in the RAW.

[Ger. Bessa]

fRom A fluff point of VIew it Does look like a channeled pyroburst since you can decide at wich time you release it, and the concentration check is like the stress of holding a Hadouken before firing it.

Without AS, orb of fire at +1 CL would take one full turn and would be fired at the cost of a standard action on the next turn. That is more than one turn.

Then AS would consider that as more than one turn and would reduce it by one turn. What you bring is "does AS adjusts the casting time in a dynamic way ?" and it does for the sorcerer with invisible spell.

Of course I want it to work but what I'm saying is that unless it doesn't work by RAW for a reason, then it should be ruled as the same as for spontaneous metamagic sorcerers.

Edit : I guess I would still need a concentration check at the end of the standard action.

[dextercorvia]

Arcane spellsurge has no effect on any spell with a casting time of greater than 1 minute or a casting time not listed on the table.

The table skips from '1 full round' to '2-10 rounds' -- your 1 round + 1 standard is not included in the table. There is nothing about 'more than one round'.

The difference with sorcerer is that the time to cast a metamagic spell is not a cost, just a result. Also, a full round action (arguably) appears on the table.