How much would you put out for a set of RPG books?

[Jormengand]

Suppose you're browsing the internet (which you are) and come across a set of game books for a brand-new RPG. You see that there's a small demo version of the game, and let's say - for argument's sake - that you think, hmm, this is a pretty decent RPG. The game is:

A set of three 300-page rulebooks, in full colour, illustrated, and properly formatted with neat tables and such,
Available in physical hardback or PDF format,
Using a payment method that is - again for argument's sake - not in some manner annoying,
Exploring new mechanics that other RPGs you've played barely touch on.

Buuuut...

It's made by an author and publisher that you've never heard of,
It's 900 pages long, which is a lot of reading.

So, how much would you be prepared to put out for that, assuming you'd want to buy it at all?

[Maglubiyet]

Unlikely I would buy it (three 300-page rulebooks is a lot), but if something caught my eye I might. The download would have to really deliver something special. Sad to say, but I'd probably cap out at $50 US at the most on an untested system. Unless there was something really enticing about it I couldn't see spending a whole lot.

Now if I went to a Con and saw a demo, met the developer(s), and got to leaf through the books beforehand I might go much higher.

[Karl Aegis]

It really depends on the organization of the books. What are the books for? If there was a book for mechanics, a book for the setting and a book for something else (what would this book even be?) I would probably pay the same as I would pay for Tenra Bansho Zero: $50 for a full-color physical copy of the mechanics book and the setting book, $14 dollars for the black and white pdfs. The third book would have to be really interesting for me to buy it. If all three books were really good I could possibly shell out $100 for a collector's edition.


Can you put most of the relevant mechanics on a 3 page pdf (like so (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5aACMJOXiR-cGloTkJVYnRSUVU/edit)) or is it Math: The Gamening?

[Jormengand]

It really depends on the organization of the books. What are the books for?

It's sorta like DMG/PHB/MM in organisation, if that helps. There's essentially a player's book, Arbiter's (DM's) book, and then a "Here is how you build an encounter and here are lots of NPCs and here are monsters and here are all the mounts you can buy and creatures you can summon." I'm not sure you could get away without buying all three, though you could manage on inventiveness without the monster book.


Can you put most of the relevant mechanics on a 3 page pdf (like so (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5aACMJOXiR-cGloTkJVYnRSUVU/edit)) or is it Math: The Gamening?

I can probably take a good shot at getting most of them on, putting aside all the spell lists, classes and such which take up far more than that on their own. I'd probably be able to do it, especially since the PDF you linked me gives me nowhere near enough info to actually understand what's going on, though it would act as a good quick reference guide if I knew but had forgotten how a bit worked.

I'll see what I can do, anyway.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's sorta like DMG/PHB/MM in organisation, if that helps. There's essentially a player's book, Arbiter's (DM's) book, and then a "Here is how you build an encounter and here are lots of NPCs and here are monsters and here are all the mounts you can buy and creatures you can summon." I'm not sure you could get away without buying all three, though you could manage on inventiveness without the monster book.

I HATE this arrangement, mainly because it feels like I have to buy 2 books to get all the rules. I would pay at most about £15 a book in this situation, because I honestly don't see why I should have to pay for 2 books to get the full set of basic rules. What is in the 'Arbiter's' book that couldn't go in the GM's book? Or is it a case of it was just so long and that seemed like the best way to separate it. Why is the Arbiter's book as long as the player's book, where 90% of the games I own have a 'GM's only' section lasting at most a third of the player's section. I like paying no more than £50 for a full game, because I know that there are several that interest me that I could buy for £30 (which is why I haven't looked at D&D 5e, it costs 3 times as much as most of the non-D&D games I own).


I can probably take a good shot at getting most of them on, putting aside all the spell lists, classes and such which take up far more than that on their own. I'd probably be able to do it, especially since the PDF you linked me gives me nowhere near enough info to actually understand what's going on, though it would act as a good quick reference guide if I knew but had forgotten how a bit worked.

I'll see what I can do, anyway.

This really isn't selling me this system, as the linked three pages give me enough to actually play the game, if I print them out so they are easy to read, I just miss all of the little things that I'd get with a full rulebook.

I seriously question whether this all needs to be in the core, as I've seen a well developed system where all the information for players, including equipment and the spell list, fit on no more than 50 pages. Finalised the system might have 100 pages of player material in the core, with about 50 pages of GM material by what I've seen (it all runs on the same system and equipment as players do, it's just GM advice and monster creation rules). There is a lot of rules that have just carefully not been put in the core because most groups should not need them, and they can be fully explored in another book. Is there some way to trim these three books into two books (a core rulebook and a encounters/NPCs/monsters book)?

[Grinner]

Unless the game featured some extremely novel ideas or superb writing, I probably wouldn't pay much for it, if at all. Maybe $5 per book at most.

Historically, these 300-page mammoths don't quite live up to expectations.

[Jormengand]

I HATE this arrangement, mainly because it feels like I have to buy 2 books to get all the rules. I would pay at most about £15 a book in this situation, because I honestly don't see why I should have to pay for 2 books to get the full set of basic rules. What is in the 'Arbiter's' book that couldn't go in the GM's book?
Everything because the Arbiter Is the GM.

Or is it a case of it was just so long and that seemed like the best way to separate it. Why is the Arbiter's book as long as the player's book, where 90% of the games I own have a 'GM's only' section lasting at most a third of the player's section.
The Arbiter's book also contains the entire setting details and a small adventure path, as well as several smaller adventures (one of which I'll probably include in the demo)

I like paying no more than £50 for a full game, because I know that there are several that interest me that I could buy for £30 (which is why I haven't looked at D&D 5e, it costs 3 times as much as most of the non-D&D games I own).
Fair enough.


This really isn't selling me this system, as the linked three pages give me enough to actually play the game, if I print them out so they are easy to read, I just miss all of the little things that I'd get with a full rulebook.
See, I looked at the linked three pages, and I don't actually get how the system works from them. I'm sure if I spent a while working out what they do, I could, and that's fine - I could easily get all the chargen rules and the basic rules of how the game works on a few pages like that. I mean, I have a 2 page document with some of the earlier rules that I made for some of my playtesters. While it doesn't have all the rules by a long shot, it's maybe 5 pages tops of reading to understand the system properly? And I mean properly, none of this bullet-point sentence-fragment style.


I seriously question whether this all needs to be in the core, as I've seen a well developed system where all the information for players, including equipment and the spell list, fit on no more than 50 pages.
The entire point of the game I am making is that the players should have a ton of choices - there are going to be over 500 spells with different names (as opposed to copies of the same spell on one of the 26 different spell lists), there are probably similarly going to be hundreds of talents, not to mention there are already 17 professions and 9 associations (there are going to be way more of both) - it's not just rules rules rules, it's options options options, but they're options that are - I hope - organised in such a way that you can quickly find all those options and what they do, and why.


Finalised the system might have 100 pages of player material in the core, with about 50 pages of GM material by what I've seen (it all runs on the same system and equipment as players do, it's just GM advice and monster creation rules). There is a lot of rules that have just carefully not been put in the core because most groups should not need them, and they can be fully explored in another book. Is there some way to trim these three books into two books (a core rulebook and a encounters/NPCs/monsters book)?

See, I could do, but again, the DMG equivalent is also the container for all the adventures and so forth that are in the system. It's not just "Here's how you be a DM, hur dur." It's entirely possible, I suppose, that I could set it up so that it doesn't actually contain any rules and lacking it will only be a pain if you don't know how to run an RPG. I'll try that.


Unless the game featured some extremely novel ideas or superb writing, I probably wouldn't pay much for it, if at all. Maybe $5 per book at most.

Historically, these 300-page mammoths don't quite live up to expectations.
Would you then pay more for it if it had less stuff in? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Poor editing and writing can bloat a tome needlessly. I'd much rather have a smaller work with more good stuff than a big, hefty tome that is an unclear muddle of mechanics.

[Jormengand]

Poor editing and writing can bloat a tome needlessly. I'd much rather have a smaller work with more good stuff than a big, hefty tome that is an unclear muddle of mechanics.

True, which is why I'm going to get a proper editor to have a look at everything and make sure it all makes sense. The size of the thing (if it does end up that big, anyway - 300 might end up being an exaggeration; we'll see) should be lists of stuff that you can do, not stuff that you must do.

[Anonymouswizard]

Everything because the Arbiter Is the GM.

Sorry, there's a 'concert' blaring music that I can hear a third of the campus away, it's really distracting, I meant player's book.


The Arbiter's book also contains the entire setting details and a small adventure path, as well as several smaller adventures (one of which I'll probably include in the demo)

Fair enough.

Why not put it as a setting book with included adventure path? I'd happily splurge £30 on something like that. As it is, it feels like you've just added useless stuff to the 'rulebooks'.


See, I looked at the linked three pages, and I don't actually get how the system works from them. I'm sure if I spent a while working out what they do, I could, and that's fine - I could easily get all the chargen rules and the basic rules of how the game works on a few pages like that. I mean, I have a 2 page document with some of the earlier rules that I made for some of my playtesters. While it doesn't have all the rules by a long shot, it's maybe 5 pages tops of reading to understand the system properly? And I mean properly, none of this bullet-point sentence-fragment style.

It might help that I've basically written the exact core engine before.


The entire point of the game I am making is that the players should have a ton of choices - there are going to be over 500 spells with different names (as opposed to copies of the same spell on one of the 26 different spell lists), there are probably similarly going to be hundreds of talents, not to mention there are already 17 professions and 9 associations (there are going to be way more of both) - it's not just rules rules rules, it's options options options, but they're options that are - I hope - organised in such a way that you can quickly find all those options and what they do, and why.

I have here a copy of Ars Magica. Explain how including over 500 spells gives me more options than it's semi-freeform magic system? Say I want to stop a drought. If your system (for some reason) does not have the spell, I can't do it. Ars Magica, Rego Auram. Turn a bridge to solid gold? In Ars Magica it's just Muto Terram. Kill someone? Ars let's me use Perdo Corpus or Perdo Mentem. In Ars Magica I can do almost anything with enough seasons.

If you want to give me options, I question how classes give me more options than freeform point build.


See, I could do, but again, the DMG equivalent is also the container for all the adventures and so forth that are in the system. It's not just "Here's how you be a DM, hur dur." It's entirely possible, I suppose, that I could set it up so that it doesn't actually contain any rules and lacking it will only be a pain if you don't know how to run an RPG. I'll try that.

I thought that was book 3 :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

True, which is why I'm going to get a proper editor to have a look at everything and make sure it all makes sense. The size of the thing (if it does end up that big, anyway - 300 might end up being an exaggeration; we'll see) should be lists of stuff that you can do, not stuff that you must do.

I hope so, though you might want to look yourself with some testers, because I don't think an editor won't be able to help you much with bad mechanics.

[Grinner]

Would you then pay more for it if it had less stuff in? :smallconfused:

It's more about the quality of the stuff rather than the quantity of stuff. If a new Unknown Armies supplement were released tomorrow, well, I'd have to save up for it, but I would definitely buy it, no questions asked. Unknown Armies is traditionally just that well-written. But perhaps a counterexample is in order.

Let's take a look at a game called Spellchrome (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/68843/Spellchrome-Core-Rulebook). It's a d20 fantasy RPG wherein aliens land on a standard issue fantasy world and introduce some of their technology to the natives. What results is D&D by way of Shadowrun. It sounds pretty cool, has good production values, and is extremely affordable. Let's take a look at the table of contents, though.


Introduction - 7 pages
Character Creation - 21 pages
Level Advancement - 3 pages
Skills - 19 pages
Magic Spells - 31 pages
Feats - 4 pages
Equipment - 31 pages
Combat - 26 pages
Running the Game - 23 pages
Threats - 15 pages
Setting - 11 pages
Extras - 5 pages


Total content - 196 pages
Total setting content - 5.6%

It's presently priced at $2, down from the original price of $10. It's not a bad buy at the current price, but for what it is, the original $10 was asking far too much. Rulesets are easy to come by, especially D&D clones. Setting material is much more valuable to me.

[Jormengand]

Sorry, there's a 'concert' blaring music that I can hear a third of the campus away, it's really distracting, I meant player's book.
As a substitute for which? ("What's in the player's book that couldn't go in the GM's book?" or "What's in the Arbiter's book that couldn't go in the player's book?") Assuming you meant the latter, there's all the adventure paths, all the stuff about how to run the game, how to challenge your players, and other stuff which is partly there because it's meant to allow someone who doesn't really know how to GM/DM/ST/Arbiter/Whatever to be able to.


Why not put it as a setting book with included adventure path? I'd happily splurge £30 on something like that. As it is, it feels like you've just added useless stuff to the 'rulebooks'.

I guess, yeah.


It might help that I've basically written the exact core engine before.
Might do.



I have here a copy of Ars Magica. Explain how including over 500 spells gives me more options than it's semi-freeform magic system? Say I want to stop a drought. If your system (for some reason) does not have the spell, I can't do it. Ars Magica, Rego Auram.
Summon Objects will do that just fine, as will Wavecrash if you don't mind a liiiiiittle bit of collateral damage. >.>


Turn a bridge to solid gold? In Ars Magica it's just Muto Terram.
Transmutation will do that, assuming it's a small enough bridge or I cast it enough times.


Kill someone? Ars let's me use Perdo Corpus or Perdo Mentem. In Ars Magica I can do almost anything with enough seasons.

Hooo boy. Well, there's Burning Dispel, Burning Light, Burning Body, Burst of Flame, Cage of Flame... Foe Hammer, Kinetic Bombardment,... Holy Lance, Light of Death... Boiling Blood, Instant Death, yeah, I'm not listing them all. Also I suppose you could telekinetically drop a boulder on their face. If you can think of it there's probably a spell for it.


If you want to give me options, I question how classes give me more options than freeform point build. True, no one character can have all the options without serious multiclassing (though you can take Talents that basically gestalt you if that's really your heart's desire), but essentially it allows you to do loads of things, even if you don't have access to them all the time. It allows you options without being freeform. If you want infinite options, I recommend Alea Iacta Est. (http://www.topsecretgames.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Alea-Iacta-Est.pdf) Otherwise you're going to have to deal with having options that are restricted so you don't get D&D's problem of characters who can do literally everything.


I thought that was book 3 :smallconfused:

They're not numbered, but one book's the rules and player's guide, one is the setting, APs and Arbiter's guide, and one is basically the MM.


I hope so, though you might want to look yourself with some testers, because I don't think an editor won't be able to help you much with bad mechanics.

Mhm, I've already scrapped one rule because it didn't work in practice - I have a set of playtesters who test things out whenever we meet up. We're probably gonna do so again after all the exams and stuff.

[Karl Aegis]

How many 8.5 x 12 inch character sheets will I need to accurately portray all the stuff my character has going for them? I prefer one side of one sheet, but I can go up to three double-sided sheets. I don't want to have to use multiple sides of the same paper for one task, however.

Two sides seems ideal from what I have heard. One side for combat, one side for noncombat. Maybe include a title page for a description of the character.

[veti]

I have fond memories of AD&D 1e (which was way better written than 2e, no I don't care what anyone says), which was structured like that, although I think the books were somewhat smaller. And it's not actually required to read everything, but I did, that first time through.

If I had time, and I was keen enough to spend it on this project? I'd welcome such weighty tomes, and actively enjoy reading them. If I had as much confidence as you seem to have in the project, I'd probably be happy to pay up to US$30 per book for them.

If I was being a little more cautious, I might start by just buying the PHB and seeing if the quality really does live up to expectations.

Caveat: are the publishers threatening more rules supplements to follow, a la WOTC? Because that would change the equation considerably. I'd need to really fall in love with the game to commit to it under those terms.

[Jormengand]

Caveat: are the publishers threatening more rules supplements to follow, a la WOTC? Because that would change the equation considerably. I'd need to really fall in love with the game to commit to it under those terms.

Mhh, I might do if it got popular. Does that bother you somehow?

EDIT:


How many 8.5 x 12 inch character sheets will I need to accurately portray all the stuff my character has going for them? I prefer one side of one sheet, but I can go up to three double-sided sheets. I don't want to have to use multiple sides of the same paper for one task, however.

Sorry, missed ya there. I made an Excel sheet which takes up about two screens (though if I sorted it out would be a lot less) and can happily fit on your whole crunch, including all your dice in skills you have no dice in. If I made it a sort of "Fill in your skills here, spells here, association and rank here, profession and rank here, talents here" kind of deal, then it would probably just about fit on one side of one sheet.

[Knaight]

900 pages of rules is a gigantic, gigantic red flag as far as I'm concerned. I probably wouldn't buy it at all. I might thumb through it at a store, but even then the odds of it catching my eye are pretty low.

[Jormengand]

900 pages of rules is a gigantic, gigantic red flag as far as I'm concerned. I probably wouldn't buy it at all. I might thumb through it at a store, but even then the odds of it catching my eye are pretty low.

Mmmh, but it's not all just rules so much as things you can do. Like, D&D 3.5 must have several thousand pages total, including all the sourcebooks, but not much of that is actually rules.

[Knaight]

Mmmh, but it's not all just rules so much as things you can do. Like, D&D 3.5 must have several thousand pages total, including all the sourcebooks, but not much of that is actually rules.

I'd count that as rules. As for D&D 3.5, it does have that much. I'd also consider even the size of the core rules a pretty big warning sign for bloat, and the splats don't help there.

[Anonymouswizard]

As a substitute for which? ("What's in the player's book that couldn't go in the GM's book?" or "What's in the Arbiter's book that couldn't go in the player's book?") Assuming you meant the latter, there's all the adventure paths, all the stuff about how to run the game, how to challenge your players, and other stuff which is partly there because it's meant to allow someone who doesn't really know how to GM/DM/ST/Arbiter/Whatever to be able to.

I meant the second.


Summon Objects will do that just fine, as will Wavecrash if you don't mind a liiiiiittle bit of collateral damage. >.>


Transmutation will do that, assuming it's a small enough bridge or I cast it enough times.



Hooo boy. Well, there's Burning Dispel, Burning Light, Burning Body, Burst of Flame, Cage of Flame... Foe Hammer, Kinetic Bombardment,... Holy Lance, Light of Death... Boiling Blood, Instant Death, yeah, I'm not listing them all. Also I suppose you could telekinetically drop a boulder on their face. If you can think of it there's probably a spell for it.

I meant them as a hypothetical 'what if there's something you didn't account for came up', because if going for options prepackaged spells are actually fairly limiting, just give the players the spell packaging tools and let them package their own spells.

And several of these sound like they should be the same spell.


True, no one character can have all the options without serious multiclassing (though you can take Talents that basically gestalt you if that's really your heart's desire), but essentially it allows you to do loads of things, even if you don't have access to them all the time. It allows you options without being freeform. If you want infinite options, I recommend Alea Iacta Est. (http://www.topsecretgames.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Alea-Iacta-Est.pdf) Otherwise you're going to have to deal with having options that are restricted so you don't get D&D's problem of characters who can do literally everything.

From what I've heard, your game designed to give me
options options options gives me no more options for powers than cracking open GURPS to 'advantages' and using the listed advantages and modifiers.


They're not numbered, but one book's the rules and player's guide, one is the setting, APs and Arbiter's guide, and one is basically the MM.

I'm still suspicious about the point of book two, but that's because it sounds like a supplement.


How many 8.5 x 12 inch character sheets will I need to accurately portray all the stuff my character has going for them? I prefer one side of one sheet, but I can go up to three double-sided sheets. I don't want to have to use multiple sides of the same paper for one task, however.

Two sides seems ideal from what I have heard. One side for combat, one side for noncombat. Maybe include a title page for a description of the character.

Why do people seem incapable of designing a character sheet to proper paper sizes? Whenever I print out a sheet on A4 paper I end up with large white bars at the top and bottom.

[Jormengand]

I meant them as a hypothetical 'what if there's something you didn't account for came up', because if going for options prepackaged spells are actually fairly limiting, just give the players the spell packaging tools and let them package their own spells.

And several of these sound like they should be the same spell.
Yeah, because letting players package their own spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) worked so well for d&d 3.5. Oh wait.


From what I've heard, your game designed to give me gives me no more options for powers than cracking open GURPS to 'advantages' and using the listed advantages and modifiers.
Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn't. Oh wait, that's because GURPS is also designed to give people tons of options! Yay!


I'm still suspicious about the point of book two, but that's because it sounds like a supplement.
If you... say so?

[Jay R]

There is no scenario in which I would buy all three books before reading some of it.

Given some clear reason to consider it at all, I would probably pay up to $10 for a pdf of the first book, and make a real decision afterwards.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, because letting players package their own spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) worked so well for d&d 3.5. Oh wait.

I know, it also works horridly for Mutants and Mastermind's powers, GURPS advantages, Ars Magica (where you package your own spell during gameplay).... If you are giving one group of players access to 'break the world' and another access to 'punch REALLY hard' it's going to work out a lot less well than letting every player access to 'break the world', even if they only use it to 'punch REALLY hard'. One example makes a poor sample size, in my experience 'letting players package their own spells' tends not to cause as much trouble as 'here are your predefined effects' as the players are able to actually make what they want (like say a Fate/Prototype Gilgamesh, or a time controller).


Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn't. Oh wait, that's because GURPS is also designed to give people tons of options! Yay!

So why do I need your game? It sounds like it does the same stuff as a game I already own.


If you... say so?

I have rather strict things that I like in my core, a basic setting overview, all the rules, and a basic suite of options. So I tend to classify anything beyond basic setting as 'splatbook'.

[Jormengand]

I know, it also works horridly for Mutants and Mastermind's powers, GURPS advantages, Ars Magica (where you package your own spell during gameplay).... If you are giving one group of players access to 'break the world' and another access to 'punch REALLY hard' it's going to work out a lot less well than letting every player access to 'break the world', even if they only use it to 'punch REALLY hard'. One example makes a poor sample size, in my experience 'letting players package their own spells' tends not to cause as much trouble as 'here are your predefined effects' as the players are able to actually make what they want (like say a Fate/Prototype Gilgamesh, or a time controller).
Honestly, I can't see any way of having a make-your-own-effects system that wouldn't either end up as semi-freeform, or a more complex version of just having defined effects in the first place.


So why do I need your game? It sounds like it does the same stuff as a game I already own.
And some other stuff, yes. Anyhow, you could equally ask why anyone needed 5e when 3.5 did most of the same things.


I have rather strict things that I like in my core, a basic setting overview, all the rules, and a basic suite of options. So I tend to classify anything beyond basic setting as 'splatbook'.

Huh. That seems pretty minimal to me, but okay.


There is no scenario in which I would buy all three books before reading some of it.

Given some clear reason to consider it at all, I would probably pay up to $10 for a pdf of the first book, and make a real decision afterwards.

Fair enough; what if you'd played a demo and found it decent? Or what if you flicked through one of the books and liked what you saw? Would you be prepared to pay more, or what?



Seems I'm getting a really mixed response here, anything from $15 tops to possibly $90 or $100 for a special collector's edition - that's kinda like the difference between minimum wage and more than I could possibly have earned doing a normal job, for an equal number of people buying it. Any reason for that discrepancy, or is it just that you have more or less expensive tastes in RPGs?

[Pluto!]

I don't like spending over $40 on RPGs, and I probably wouldn't buy a 900 page RPG at all.

D&D gets to play by different rules than most of the industry, on the basis of already being a huge name. Similar with White Wolf. Don't calibrate your expectations on them.

I would't expect hardcover to be a profitable option without both absolutely great appearance and content.

Regarding the proceeds you're going to get for your time, it's uncommon for indie RPG designers to make an appreciable profit.

Minimum wage is frankly optimistic.

[TheThan]

I think it would have to be very good in order to get me to drop any amount of cash on this system.
Here are my reasons why:



I’ve got plenty of systems and can replicate most any genera I’d ever be interested in playing in.

I’ve already invested quite a bit of money in another system (or systems as the case may be). With that money comes a certain amount of loyalty, is this system good enough to make me make the switch?

I’m not really playing that much right now; spending money on a hobby that I’m not doing is wasteful.

that’s a lot of reading, and I’ve grown tired of reading rulebooks.

No one else I know has those rules, so I would have to take the time to teach them. (I know they won’t take the initiative to do it themselves.) so I gravitate to systems we already know, or are very easy to learn.

This system would have to speak to me; if it’s for a genera I’m not interested in, has rules I don’t like or is simply more complicated than I’d like it to be, or if there’s just something about it that doesn’t do it for me, then it’s a no sell for me.



Basically I'm not in the market for a new RPG.

[Mr Beer]

Systems I don't need, I have systems out the wazoo. I would not buy these books.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't like spending over $40 on RPGs, and I probably wouldn't buy a 900 page RPG at all.

This, the last RPG book that I bought at over £30 I'd already read the rules and new that I could legally download supplements for free, so I was fine dropping £40 on it.


D&D gets to play by different rules than most of the industry, on the basis of already being a huge name. Similar with White Wolf. Don't calibrate your expectations on them.

Yep, D&D gets a lot of leeway on it's rules, partially because it's the only name anybody outside the interest would recognise. White Wolf to a lesser extent, it's proved that it can successfully pull of multi-book cores, but with the exception of Scion, nWoD 1e, and a couple of oWoD games it's stuck to single book cores.


I would't expect hardcover to be a profitable option without both absolutely great appearance and content.

Regarding the proceeds you're going to get for your time, it's uncommon for indie RPG designers to make an appreciable profit.

Minimum wage is frankly optimistic.

So much this, one of my friends is writing a game that he intends to shop out to a few publishers before self publishing if that fails, and I was involved in the 0.3 play test (and still need to finish the fiction inserts I promised). He admits that he expects to sell maybe five copies from friends buying it (I'm already in line) because it's got a far more solid setting than system at this point. The main reason he can afford to do this is because he already saves most of his income, he'd literally be estatic if he became as successful as Eclipse Phase, let alone White Wolf or D&D.

My tip for making money when selling an RPG is: get a really good job, a PhD might be helpful as well. Hopefully publishing costs are less than the excess salary.

[CantigThimble]

Well, I can tell you I WOULDN'T pay more than $30, in my opinion that's a fair price for an RPG hardcover. Weather I would consider buying it at all for any price is entirely dependent on the circumstances. (my gaming group, weather I bought anything else big lately) And also on my impressions of the system. All the RPGs I own either have very good reputations or were very cheap, and this will probably not be the latter if it's 900 pages.

Edit: And having a lot of backstory or a world doesn't particularly appeal to me, if I want that I got Brandon Sanderson.

[Grinner]

My tip for making money when selling an RPG is: get a really good job, a PhD might be helpful as well. Hopefully publishing costs are less than the excess salary.

There's a joke among RPG writers: "How do you make a small fortune writing RPGs? You start with a large one."

[Jay R]

Fair enough; what if you'd played a demo and found it decent? Or what if you flicked through one of the books and liked what you saw? Would you be prepared to pay more, or what?

I have no idea. You're asking me what I'd pay for something when I haven't seen the product. My answer above was that I would only pay a small amount to see a pdf of one book, and then decide if I'd buy hard copy of all three. That's still my answer. I won't decide beyond that until I've seen some of it.


Seems I'm getting a really mixed response here, anything from $15 tops to possibly $90 or $100 for a special collector's edition - that's kinda like the difference between minimum wage and more than I could possibly have earned doing a normal job, for an equal number of people buying it. Any reason for that discrepancy, or is it just that you have more or less expensive tastes in RPGs?

We have different amounts of disposable income, different interests in role-playing, and different guesses about what you're offering. Of course we will value it differently.

[Maglubiyet]

And some other stuff, yes. Anyhow, you could equally ask why anyone needed 5e when 3.5 did most of the same things.

Yes, and I would ask that if I didn't already know the answer. The question is what does your game offer that others don't? What does your game do better than others?

I've bought several dozen RPG's over the years, each for a different reason. Why would I want to buy yours -- what's the selling point?


Seems I'm getting a really mixed response here, anything from $15 tops to possibly $90 or $100 for a special collector's edition - that's kinda like the difference between minimum wage and more than I could possibly have earned doing a normal job, for an equal number of people buying it. Any reason for that discrepancy, or is it just that you have more or less expensive tastes in RPGs?

It's difficult to put a price tag on a hypothetical product with so few details. It's not really a fair question without knowing a heck of a lot more.

[Friv]

Suppose you're browsing the internet (which you are) and come across a set of game books for a brand-new RPG. You see that there's a small demo version of the game, and let's say - for argument's sake - that you think, hmm, this is a pretty decent RPG. The game is:

A set of three 300-page rulebooks, in full colour, illustrated, and properly formatted with neat tables and such,
Available in physical hardback or PDF format,
Using a payment method that is - again for argument's sake - not in some manner annoying,
Exploring new mechanics that other RPGs you've played barely touch on.

Buuuut...

It's made by an author and publisher that you've never heard of,
It's 900 pages long, which is a lot of reading.

So, how much would you be prepared to put out for that, assuming you'd want to buy it at all?

First, I'm going to go ahead and pretend that I would buy this stuff, because honestly, yeah, I would not.

The most recent book that I bought that was (a) very long, (b) well-formatted, and (c) exploring new mechanics was Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/134196/Chuubos-Marvelous-WishGranting-Engine). It doesn't actually fit all of your criteria - there was only one book (to be fair, a 600+ page whopper of a book), and it was by an author that I was a huge, huge fan of. (There was also a 50-page player's guide released later, but it was designed primarily as a "what the hell is this thing about" and was not strictly necessary for play. Also it was a $10 PDF, which is currently on sale for $5, so there you go.)

In that case, I paid $60 as part of a Kickstarter to get a hardcover copy of the core book, plus a PDF, plus the pre-layout rules to play with while the PDF and hard copy were under construction. (Currently, the PDF of that book is going for about $20.) Since that book was about the size of two of your hypotheticals, I'll say $20-30 a book.

But it is going to have to be something new. Almost certainly, the instant that I heard "Player's Book, Gamemaster's Book, and monsters/creatures/encounters book" I would be backing away like crazy, because that doesn't sound particularly new and exciting, mechanics-wise. It sounds a lot more like a D&D clone.

[Segev]

From the feedback you're getting, I would look into breaking the books up into more, smaller books. The player book may need to stay intact, to provide comprehensive options. But put the setting material in its own book(s), the Arbiter's Guide gets shrunken down to a mechanics-for-the-GM book, etc.

What book(s) are essential before somebody can play the game?

[Aedilred]

Why do people seem incapable of designing a character sheet to proper paper sizes? Whenever I print out a sheet on A4 paper I end up with large white bars at the top and bottom.

Possibly because they're American. US (and Canadian) Letter size paper is shorter than A4, so a sheet designed for that won't make best use of the vertical space of A4.

I imagine that it's slightly too much effort to produce a duplicate character sheet that works with ISO format for the companies involved, for the benefit it would incur. If it's any consolation, Americans probably have worse problems with character sheets designed to fit on A4.

[Anonymouswizard]

Possibly because they're American. US (and Canadian) Letter size paper is shorter than A4, so a sheet designed for that won't make best use of the vertical space of A4.

I imagine that it's slightly too much effort to produce a duplicate character sheet that works with ISO format for the companies involved, for the benefit it would incur. If it's any consolation, Americans probably have worse problems with character sheets designed to fit on A4.

This is really what annoys me, as my younger brother once had to buy two frames just because a photograph was too short for a A4 one.

I didn't mind, until I played with a friend who always redesigns character sheets to make them metric, as I've never run out of space for skills on his sheets. He manages to make excellent use of the space on a single sheet of A4, with the sheets just being more readable than most due to the extra vertical space.

I really don't understand why America doesn't just move to using the same size paper as everybody else, is there any need to keep the slightly shorter sheet?

[erikun]

My general limit for new RPG purchases is around $30-$40, and that assumes I'm getting a physical book with the purchase. If it's a system or company that I'm familiar with, then I've been willing to spend up to $80. I bought the three core D&D4e books for $120 in total, but that's the exception to the rule. D&D gets a pass because it's D&D - and to be honest, I wasn't all that happy with that purchase. Not even Pathfinder tries selling three core rulebooks, and for good reason. The only D&D5e book I own is the PHB, and that is because it was available for half the listed price.

Please note that I am saying $40 for the whole system, not $40 per book. So unless your three books are $12 each then I'm not interested.

However, from what little I've heard, I would not be picking this system up. Absolutely everything I've read so far has screamed out "D&D clone!" or at least "D&D sales model". What, exactly, are you planning on putting into the Arbiter's Book which takes up 300 pages and is worth reading? If it is general GMing advice then I would seriously question if it is any better than what is given in hundreds of other RPGs, and if so then why it isn't just sold as a standalone book. If it is mechanics rules, then it really should be in the book about mechanics. If it is campaign or setting details, then you would probably be better off just making an interesting and compelling campaign book which is worth picking up on its own.

The 500 spells mentioned seems excessive as well. Unless these 500 spells are required to play the game (such as the PCs are all ghosts and require spells just to interact with the environment) this sounds like some massive bloat to the system. How many of these are required to convey the basics of the setting, as presented? How many of these are, like D&D, iterations of themselves: Flaming Sphere vs Fireball vs Delayed Fireball Blast, for example. Do all 17+ professions and 9+ associations really need their own individual spell lists, all with slightly minor variations, as opposed to just giving the healers all access to the Mend Wounds spell and giving all the area-fire-damage casters access to some form of the Fireball spell. Again, this sounds a lot like system bloat; rather than having a nice concise system with some interesting mechanics, it sounds more like you are just giving everything spellcasting and then re-creating all your spells for each one.

[JAL_1138]

Option paralysis is a thing; give me a small number of good and meaningful options over umpteen dozen fiddly ones with only the fiddliest of fiddly differences between them and half of them being strictly suboptimal compared to others...which is what the magic system OP describes makes me very, very leery of.

I hated 3.PF and 4e for a wide variety of reasons, but character creation being a drawn-out and exceedingly fiddly process was certainly among them.

300 pages per book isn't as horrifyingly huge as some are indicating; that's the ballpark length of 2e and 5e books.

Although that brings up the question of why I wouldn't just play 2e or 5e. Both of which I already have and quite like, preferring 2e but still being fairly pleased with 5e. What advantages over them does this system have that would pull me away from two D&D editions I like? If it's setting, just sell me a setting (see 2nd Edition reference above, 2e grognards buy setting books like M:tG addicts buy cards).

If it's a system that's slower, fiddlier, and crunchier than those two, I doubt I'd pay for it or play it. If it's faster, more streamlined, and easier to DM than either of them AND has a general tone, flavor, etc. that would make me want to play it instead of what I already have, $20-$30 each for fullcolor hardbacks wouldn't be outrageous to me. But without the D&D or White Wolf brand, anything beyond $10-$15 each softcovers would be a tough sell in the broader market.

[Jormengand]

Again, this sounds a lot like system bloat; rather than having a nice concise system with some interesting mechanics, it sounds more like you are just giving everything spellcasting and then re-creating all your spells for each one.

I specified "Spells with different names" because "Bigger version of the same thing" spells just have different numbers attached (Heal 1, Heal 2, etc) and all of them are discussed in the same spell description (the way that Cure Wounds in 3.5 could have been 1d8/spell level + 1/CL). Not everyone has spellcasting, and those with different types of spellcasting will get the same spell if it does the same thing. As the name "Heal" suggests, anyone with access to healing magic gets the same heal spell with the same name, though some of them also have area healing spells or other ways of healing things than just healing one dude of hit point damage.

Most of the associations/professions don't have spell lists at all - magi have to choose which list they're picking off, and there's one list of spells for a Magical Background - and the lists that exist don't have "Minor variations" because they're less like wizard and cleric and more like, I dunno, beguiler and dread necromancer.

Ideally, I want people to be able to play almost any concept they want within the core system, without a case of "Oops, you'll have to wait until INSERT SUPPLEMENT HERE comes out to do that!"

And no, it's not at all D&D-based, I just couldn't think of a better way to split the books up.


Option paralysis is a thing; give me a small number of good and meaningful options over umpteen dozen fiddly ones with only the fiddliest of fiddly differences between them and half of them being strictly suboptimal compared to others...which is what the magic system OP describes makes me very, very leery of.

This is why I'm trying to remove the Virtues and Whirlwind Attacks of this world and make those options more meaningful, and arranged in a way where it's more easy to choose.

[Maglubiyet]

So by the extensive magic rules it seems this is a straight fantasy, swords and sorcery type game? Or is it a generic system you can use to emulate any genre?

[erikun]

I specified "Spells with different names" because "Bigger version of the same thing" spells just have different numbers attached (Heal 1, Heal 2, etc) and all of them are discussed in the same spell description (the way that Cure Wounds in 3.5 could have been 1d8/spell level + 1/CL). Not everyone has spellcasting, and those with different types of spellcasting will get the same spell if it does the same thing. As the name "Heal" suggests, anyone with access to healing magic gets the same heal spell with the same name, though some of them also have area healing spells or other ways of healing things than just healing one dude of hit point damage.
You might want to consider different ways of casting spells, as opposed to just handing out more spells. For example, some sort of battlefield medic commander (someone who heals and buffs large groups) might be better off with an ability that allows them to cast healing/buff spells over a large group, rather than making a large group heal and large group buff spell for them. An ally-friendly AOE nuker could just have an ability that allows them to cast Fireball and ignore ally targets, as opposed to having a specific Ally Friendly Fireball spell.

Again, this is about new mechanics, not just a large spell list. I obviously don't have access to your work to see how far off base I am with these assumptions, but it certainly sounds like they might have some accuracy.


Most of the associations/professions don't have spell lists at all - magi have to choose which list they're picking off, and there's one list of spells for a Magical Background - and the lists that exist don't have "Minor variations" because they're less like wizard and cleric and more like, I dunno, beguiler and dread necromancer.
The fact that you have 500 spells for spellcasters but nothing nearly as large for other associations/professions is a bit concerning. It either means that other professions are severely limited in what they can do in comparison, or that spell lists are needlessly comprehensive and granular. I mean, if my lockpicking thief can get by with seven skills and ten different abilities, then I have to wonder why the wizard needs to have access to 100 different spells.

Also, it does leave me with some concerns about a lack of focus. Again, how many of these are NEEDED to give the taste and capability of a spellcaster? A spell list of 500 sounds like it is falling into the trap that D&D tripped: the idea that any wizard should be capable of accomplishing everything that every fantasy wizard has ever done. If I'm getting a new RPG, I don't need it to behave like D&D. I already have a system that's like D&D: I have D&D. I want a new system that doesn't act like D&D. And the "wizard has a spell for everything" is very much a D&D thing.

[Friv]

300 pages per book isn't as horrifyingly huge as some are indicating; that's the ballpark length of 2e and 5e books.

I think the big difference is between a 300 page book, and three 300 page books. I mean, that's a lot of pages, even by the industry big book standards - D&D tends to use three 200-250 page books, and it's the biggest one out there by a wide margin. I can't think of a successful game that uses 900 pages just for its core. Can you?

[Pluto!]

Depends. Was FATAL a success? <_<

[Jormengand]

You might want to consider different ways of casting spells, as opposed to just handing out more spells. For example, some sort of battlefield medic commander (someone who heals and buffs large groups) might be better off with an ability that allows them to cast healing/buff spells over a large group, rather than making a large group heal and large group buff spell for them. An ally-friendly AOE nuker could just have an ability that allows them to cast Fireball and ignore ally targets, as opposed to having a specific Ally Friendly Fireball spell.

Divine Champions use their spells as auras (Doesn't take an action to activate, affects all allies in range, pay cost each turn) and there are ways of using "Totems" which modify spells that hit them or even cast your spells for you. That fit the bill?


Again, this is about new mechanics, not just a large spell list. I obviously don't have access to your work to see how far off base I am with these assumptions, but it certainly sounds like they might have some accuracy.

Mmm.... not really?


The fact that you have 500 spells for spellcasters but nothing nearly as large for other associations/professions is a bit concerning. It either means that other professions are severely limited in what they can do in comparison, or that spell lists are needlessly comprehensive and granular. I mean, if my lockpicking thief can get by with seven skills and ten different abilities, then I have to wonder why the wizard needs to have access to 100 different spells.
They get Talents which are a bit like feats and a bit like manoeuvres instead. And yes, there are lots of those too.


Also, it does leave me with some concerns about a lack of focus. Again, how many of these are NEEDED to give the taste and capability of a spellcaster? A spell list of 500 sounds like it is falling into the trap that D&D tripped: the idea that any wizard should be capable of accomplishing everything that every fantasy wizard has ever done.
Each wizard is limited in how many spells he can earn - he has to mess around to get more than 27 at a time on a single character (I can think of a way that you could get 33 without trying too hard) - you have options for how to make your character, but not a million abilities once you've made your character.

If I'm getting a new RPG, I don't need it to behave like D&D. I already have a system that's like D&D: I have D&D. I want a new system that doesn't act like D&D. And the "wizard has a spell for everything" is very much a D&D thing.
No one wizard has a spell for everything - they're more like Psions than wizards, if that helps (kinda like psions. Not quite). There is a spell to do anything, but you don't know it. The general rule is something like "There's probably at least one person around who can do it, and it probably isn't you but it could be." It's designed so that you can make a character to do anything, not so you can make a character to do everything.


So by the extensive magic rules it seems this is a straight fantasy, swords and sorcery type game? Or is it a generic system you can use to emulate any genre?

Mm, it's kinda both. It's a little like D20 in its ability to be transferred to anything if you just change the weapons and stuff about, except that it's a feature and not a "Oops, that worked better than we expected" so I hope it actually works properly. Also, it has the ability to actually handle politics and non-combat stuff (like, say, talking to people) properly, which I hope is helpful. As in, those few hundred pages of core player rules? Like, most of it's stuff you can do, but about 20 pages of it is "And this is how social stuff actually works" rather than having the notoriously lacking diplomacy skill and kinda being left to extrapolate from there.


I think the big difference is between a 300 page book, and three 300 page books. I mean, that's a lot of pages, even by the industry big book standards - D&D tends to use three 200-250 page books, and it's the biggest one out there by a wide margin. I can't think of a successful game that uses 900 pages just for its core. Can you?

I guess the question is when the last time was that you read the MM from cover to cover?


Depends. Was FATAL a success? <_<

I think that comparing it to the inglorious clusterflub formerly known as FATAL is a little bit insulting, but... probably? I mean, FATAL was so bad that lots of people went and got it just for a giggle or to see exactly how bad.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This is an interesting question, dependent on a few factors.


Hooks. A book with some really solid writing and/or flavor is more likely to catch my attention.
Mechanical innovation. If the game plays like nothing else (or clearly has an incredibly unique identiy), that's a plus.
Simplicity. There are a lot of complicated games out there. I've found that many of the simply explained ones are more fun, more elegant, and more likely to be enjoyed by my players.


So 300-900 pages across several books is a HUGE red flag to me: I want to be able to get the entire system in one book, and then choose to buy others as necessary. One of the big flags for D&D to me.

I don't want excess setting material in my core book, unless the game is specifically designed around that setting (Scion, for example, can get away with a lot of flavor, as can Deadlands).

For something like what you've suggested? If I can't see a functional rules-set (enough to maybe play a pick-up game with limited options) for under, say, $3-5 (preferably free), you'll have to be INCREDIBLY innovative and evocative INCREDIBLY quickly to get me to even leaf through the book on anything other than a specific recommendation. Any inklings of generic-ness will kill my interest in such a tome.

[Segev]

I really don't understand why America doesn't just move to using the same size paper as everybody else, is there any need to keep the slightly shorter sheet?

It's a more awkward size to carry around. As for why America doesn't conform, the same question can be asked in reverse: is there any need for the bulkier sheet? Why can't everybody just stick with 8.5/11?

The answer lies in the fact that people are used to what they're used to, and the advantages and disadvantages of each are such that people use what works best for them.

[Knaight]

It's a more awkward size to carry around. As for why America doesn't conform, the same question can be asked in reverse: is there any need for the bulkier sheet? Why can't everybody just stick with 8.5/11?

When we're talking about standards, and the population behind one standard is 300 million and the population behind the other standard is 7 million, reversing the question about switching from one to the other doesn't make any sense. This is particularly true when the standards come from the use of different measuring systems, one of which is an incredibly irritating primitive relic which is a nightmare to work with.

[Friv]

I guess the question is when the last time was that you read the MM from cover to cover?

Literally never. Whose side is that a point in favor of?

[Jormengand]

Literally never. Whose side is that a point in favor of?

Well, wouldn't everything be loads easier if you don't actually have to read one of the books before you play it, no matter whether it's three pages or three hundred?

[Pluto!]

I think that comparing it to the inglorious clusterflub formerly known as FATAL is a little bit insulting, but... probably? I mean, FATAL was so bad that lots of people went and got it just for a giggle or to see exactly how bad.That's fair. It's just such a convenient number for a throwaway. >_>

As none of us have seen your system, none of us can really offer any meaningful commentary or assessment of your game.

But the takeaway this thread might have is that 900 pages is scaring more folks here away than it's selling.

Let's level: when folks buy an off-the-beaten-path RPG, it's not with the intention of playing it every week for a year, it's usually with the intention of playing a couple pickup games and moving on. With that in mind, approachability is a real asset, as is price.

[Kid Jake]

I really don't understand why America doesn't just move to using the same size paper as everybody else, is there any need to keep the slightly shorter sheet?

Like most everything else in America, you can have our slightly shorter sheets when you pry them from our cold dead hands. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

Well, wouldn't everything be loads easier if you don't actually have to read one of the books before you play it, no matter whether it's three pages or three hundred?

That parts of the books are reference manuals that you don't read straight through is pretty much just assumed regardless. It also applies just fine to books in the more typical 200-500 page range that's typical of the really rules heavy systems.

[Segev]

When we're talking about standards, and the population behind one standard is 300 million and the population behind the other standard is 7 million, reversing the question about switching from one to the other doesn't make any sense. This is particularly true when the standards come from the use of different measuring systems, one of which is an incredibly irritating primitive relic which is a nightmare to work with.

I'm...not sure which populations you're discussing.

America alone is 330 million people. I honestly do not know Canada's population. A4 is a standard for Europe and India, which makes it have a larger number of people using it, but the populations are a little deceptive when you get into China and India and the like because the number of professionals who work with modern paper is significantly smaller as a fraction of the total population for those nations in particular.

Besides, by the logic of simple numbers of people, the whole world would do business in Russian and Chinese; clearly, therefore, the determining factor of a dominant standard is not simple population.


Finally, your counterpoint fails to acknowledge the other half of my statement: people of different cultures are free to use what is most comfortable for them. Standards are nice, but not so critical that all must conform in all things.


And regardless, this is a tangent which is, at best, going to get into pointless bickering if it continues. You're free to be dissatisfied with America's choice of paper standards. It's rather arrogant to demand that we conform to your preference just because you don't like it. For this specific issue, think of your extra-large sheet margins as note-taking space.

[Pluto!]

"Get on our archaic and nonsensically-scaled level!" - all 50 united states in unison, as brightly-colored 8×11.5 confetti showers down and a marching band tootles along somewhere in the distance.

[Karl Aegis]

I was going under the assumptions:

A rule book's price for a hobby is generally elastic: More people won't buy the book if the price were lowered and less people won't buy it if the price were higher.

The rule book is from out of country and will ship directly to my house. Tenra Bansho Zero and Warhammer Fantasy Battles are from Japan and Great Britain and ship to North America.

The rule books will be of the general quality as one from F.E.A.R. or Games Workshop. There will be pictures and they will be good. Even if you don't actually play the game the purchase of the pictures and the fluff will be worth it.

The rule book won't be a ripoff. College kids these days have to pay upwards of $170 for textbooks that are so poorly written they make the reader physically ill. They amount to very expensive toilet paper of the lowest quality you can find. The book will at least be enjoyable to look at.

The rule book will last long enough to be passed down through the family for at least two generations. That's what I expect in a hardcover.


I want to be the ace pilot of a bipedal robot that is 3.3m tall. It has two arms. For weapons it has a solid ax and a light anti-infantry machine gun. It has night vision and roller-blades. The rollerblades increase movement speed, but don't prevent jumping. Is it possible to create a character like this and are these options visible?

[Segev]

"Get on our archaic and nonsensically-scaled level!" - all 50 united states in unison, as brightly-colored 8×11.5 confetti showers down and a marching band tootles along somewhere in the distance.

I'll note it wasn't the US demanding conformity; the rhetorical question as to why the rest of the world didn't do things our way was in response to such a question directed at us, to illustrate a point. Please do not be the guy who uses the following insane troll logic:
"Sam, you have to do things my way."
"Eugene, I'm happy doing things the way I am; if you want us all to do things the same way, why can't you change what you're doing?"
"Sam, stop trying to force me to do things your way, you jerk!"

[Maglubiyet]

I want to be the ace pilot of a bipedal robot that is 3.3m tall. It has two arms. For weapons it has a solid ax and a light anti-infantry machine gun. It has night vision and roller-blades. The rollerblades increase movement speed, but don't prevent jumping. Is it possible to create a character like this and are these options visible?

Building this character should be the litmus test for any purported "generic" or "flexible-enough-to-handle-anything" system.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Building this character should be the litmus test for any purported "generic" or "flexible-enough-to-handle-anything" system.

Eh. You'd need several such characters to be a litmus test.

Also, note that "generic" doesn't necessary mean "has rules for everything." FATE is an excellent generic system, for example, and would still need a bit of end-user modification to run a vehicle-heavy game well.

[Knaight]

And regardless, this is a tangent which is, at best, going to get into pointless bickering if it continues. You're free to be dissatisfied with America's choice of paper standards. It's rather arrogant to demand that we conform to your preference just because you don't like it. For this specific issue, think of your extra-large sheet margins as note-taking space.

I live in the U.S. and use the standard paper, but that's besides the point. The point is that treating switching from one standard to another as equivalent when one of the standards is used by way more people is questionably accurate. That is all the more true when the U.S. standard is derived from our measurement system, where the standardization request on one end is switching to a system used by essentially everyone else, that is way easier to use, that is already used in the sciences, and that makes life significantly easier when dealing with international standard differences, whereas the other case is that everyone switch to some provincial nonsense that holds around entirely because of tradition and is an outright nightmare to work with.

[Jormengand]

Also, note that "generic" doesn't necessary mean "has rules for everything." FATE is an excellent generic system, for example, and would still need a bit of end-user modification to run a vehicle-heavy game well.

Yeah, this. Name me a system that can create that character and isn't specifically designed for making mechs and isn't basically freeform and I might see your point.


The point is that treating switching from one standard to another as equivalent when one of the standards is used by way more people is questionably accurate.

No, it isn't. Go make another thread for it.

[Knaight]

Yeah, this. Name me a system that can create that character and isn't specifically designed for making mechs and isn't basically freeform and I might see your point.

GURPS. HERO. There's no particular need for this system to handle it (as it sounds like it isn't a generic), but it's not that far out there.

[Maglubiyet]

Yeah, this. Name me a system that can create that character and isn't specifically designed for making mechs and isn't basically freeform and I might see your point.

I wouldn't judge your system based on whether it could handle an off-the-wall concept like piloting rollerblading mechas. A game doesn't have to be generic to be good. Unless, of course, you're touting this as generic. But yeah, I think GURPS could do it pretty well. Savage Worlds could do it. Yes, HERO Systems.

FATE could even do it without a whole lot of mechanics around it -- it would just be a narrative style. Depends on whether you care about lots of ranges, specs, and stats.


RE: your game - I applaud you for sticking with it to create something so large and comprehensive. That is a valuable thing to be able to complete a project, ANY project. Congratulations, you've gone further than 99% of all other people who set out to do this. Good luck going forward!

[JAL_1138]

I think the big difference is between a 300 page book, and three 300 page books. I mean, that's a lot of pages, even by the industry big book standards - D&D tends to use three 200-250 page books, and it's the biggest one out there by a wide margin. I can't think of a successful game that uses 900 pages just for its core. Can you?

5e PHB: 316
5e MM: 352
5e DMG: 320

2e ('95 Revised) PHB: 319
2e ('95 Revised) MM: 384
2e ('95 Revised) DMG: 256

5e page count: 988
2e ('95 Revised) page count: 959

So...that's two.

[Karl Aegis]

Yeah, this. Name me a system that can create that character and isn't specifically designed for making mechs and isn't basically freeform and I might see your point.

Tenra Bansho Zero can make mechs that can interact effectively with dragons, ninjas, normal dudes, killing machines powered by evil spirits and demonic caves.

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to make a point. I was just being curious.

[Anonymouswizard]

Like most everything else in America, you can have our slightly shorter sheets when you pry them from our cold dead hands. :smalltongue:

Here, have more paper! It's slightly larger, so you can fit more on it? Need a bigger sheet for a poster? Just cellotape two sheets together!


I live in the U.S. and use the standard paper, but that's besides the point. The point is that treating switching from one standard to another as equivalent when one of the standards is used by way more people is questionably accurate. That is all the more true when the U.S. standard is derived from our measurement system, where the standardization request on one end is switching to a system used by essentially everyone else, that is way easier to use, that is already used in the sciences, and that makes life significantly easier when dealing with international standard differences, whereas the other case is that everyone switch to some provincial nonsense that holds around entirely because of tradition and is an outright nightmare to work with.

Basically this. I literally cannot tell the relation between the American paper sizes due to having spent so much of my education working in metric, whereas I can tell you how the ISO A series relates to each other. Although the 'weird American units' and similar Imperial system versus metric is another debate, I'm just going to say that I'd actually put forward a proper argument if I understood both systems.

Although on that note, unless there is a good flavour reason not to, games should use the metric system, the conversions are far easier to handle in my head so I don't have to go and fetch a piece of (A4) scrap paper.

[Aedilred]

Basically this. I literally cannot tell the relation between the American paper sizes due to having spent so much of my education working in metric, whereas I can tell you how the ISO A series relates to each other. Although the 'weird American units' and similar Imperial system versus metric is another debate, I'm just going to say that I'd actually put forward a proper argument if I understood both systems.

Although on that note, unless there is a good flavour reason not to, games should use the metric system, the conversions are far easier to handle in my head so I don't have to go and fetch a piece of (A4) scrap paper.

It seems there are a number of similarly-sized papers in the US although none of them correspond to the ISO. Where the American sizes themselves came from I have no idea, but I suspect it's to do with previous competing standards where they zigged and everyone else zagged. (Albeit there seem to be a number of different standards even within the US; maybe the stubbornness of people over their preferred paper size isn't exaggerated). I guess an argument can be made that the ISO paper sizes are somewhat unwieldy in some respects: for some purposes it would be useful to have transitional sizes between A4 and A3 and between A5 and A4. The demise of Foolscap is perhaps to be regretted in the former respect, but it's not like the existing system is unworkable.

About measurements more generally, I think that a quality comparison between metric and Imperial/American is a more open question than is sometimes assumed (accessibility vs universality; flexibility of whole-number calculations vs ease of decimal calculations; cultural inertia, but it's hard to make an argument that for any situation where precision is required at a small scale, metric isn't the way to go. (That Imperial effectively bottoms out at the inch measure doesn't do it any favours in that respect, and even half an inch is still bigger than a centimetre).

When it comes to gaming (at least, of the roleplaying variety), the problem with the metric system is that it's so soulless. It has "Age of Reason" stamped all over it: perhaps the most successful and almost certainly the most culturally penetrative legacy of that era's attempts to rebuild the world without reference to any cultural framework. That probably contributed to its success as a measuring system but it does mean its presence is almost unavoidably jarring in any mediaevalist or other pre-modern setting. As a general rule of thumb I think Imperial/American for histori-fantasy settings and metric for futurist and sci-fi settings isn't a bad idea, but that probably doesn't hold up terribly well outside the English-speaking world.

[Milo v3]

When it comes to gaming (at least, of the roleplaying variety), the problem with the metric system is that it's so soulless. It has "Age of Reason" stamped all over it: perhaps the most successful and almost certainly the most culturally penetrative legacy of that era's attempts to rebuild the world without reference to any cultural framework.
Umm... what? It's not soulless... just because it's logical doesn't make it soulless.


That probably contributed to its success as a measuring system but it does mean its presence is almost unavoidably jarring in any mediaevalist or other pre-modern setting. As a general rule of thumb I think metric for histori-fantasy settings and Imperial/American for futurist and sci-fi settings isn't a bad idea, but that probably doesn't hold up terribly well outside the English-speaking world.
Why would futuristic and sci-fi settings use imperial when it is the least common form of measurement.... Sci-Fi specifically makes no sense as imperial since scientists use metric (even american's scientists).

[Friv]

Yeah, this. Name me a system that can create that character and isn't specifically designed for making mechs and isn't basically freeform and I might see your point.

How many systems do I need to name?

#1 - Mutants and Masterminds can do it, in any edition.
#2 - Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine can do it.
#3 - Cortex Plus Legendary (or its primary version, Marvel Superheroic Roleplay) can do it.
#4 - Big Eyes, Small Mouth could do it in any edition, although your power level would probably be a bit wonky.
#5 - Atomic Robo could do it, but I think the mech would be a bit anemic by the standards you'd expect.
#5.5 - Fate Core, which is similar to Atomic Robo but not specifically focused on weird science, can easily create a mecha game. Listing it as a half because the rules are almost the same as Atomic Robo's.
#6 - As mentioned, you could probably get it in GURPS.
#7 - Ditto Savage World.
#8 - Ditto HERO.
#9 - You could definitely do it in Exalted, although the mechanics wouldn't be great because they never are.

There are probably quite a lot more, but I think nine is enough to prove the point.


5e PHB: 316
5e MM: 352
5e DMG: 320

2e ('95 Revised) PHB: 319
2e ('95 Revised) MM: 384
2e ('95 Revised) DMG: 256

5e page count: 988
2e ('95 Revised) page count: 959

So...that's two.

Whoops, my bad. I remembered 5e as being shorter for some reason. Alright, I concede the field on that point. D&D is the game that allows for 900+ pages of core rules.

[Friv]

*EDIT*


When it comes to gaming (at least, of the roleplaying variety), the problem with the metric system is that it's so soulless. It has "Age of Reason" stamped all over it: perhaps the most successful and almost certainly the most culturally penetrative legacy of that era's attempts to rebuild the world without reference to any cultural framework. That probably contributed to its success as a measuring system but it does mean its presence is almost unavoidably jarring in any mediaevalist or other pre-modern setting. As a general rule of thumb I think metric for histori-fantasy settings and Imperial/American for futurist and sci-fi settings isn't a bad idea, but that probably doesn't hold up terribly well outside the English-speaking world.

As someone who lives in Canada, there really isn't anything jarring about using metric everywhere, because we use metric everywhere (except for height and sometimes for indoor temperatures, for some weird reason). It's no less accurate than miles, which are rooted in some very specific British lengths.

[Pluto!]

I refuse to use a measurement system where three people can come to the same unit conversion without pad and pencil.

Anyway, this robot translation problem is a complete non sequitur. None of us have seen the system, so calling out a shortcoming that May or may not exist and which may or may not even be part of the design goals makes no sense.

There's a definite purpose for 300+ page systems - supporting games that lean on crunch-heavy wargaming in an unambiguous manner - and it's very possible that this system strikes out to reach its design goals and needs a thousand pages to do so.

But, admittedly anecdotally, I want to talk about two systems, Agon and Burning Empires.

Agon is a book about Heroes in Greek myths. It's something like 100 pages long. Frankly, there are some parts of the system that really turned me off to the system - an oddly abstracted combat mini game, points that players collect in competition with one another. The product, though is attractive, and the PDF is cheap.

Burning Empires is a scifi port of the Burning World game, which I've only heard good things about, including some big and flashy add-ons. From everything I've heard about the system, it sounds interesting and fantastic for the sort of gaming that I'd like to do. The game is over 650 pages long, the hardcover is over $60.

Of the two, BE grabs my attention far more aggressively. But to be honest, I've never pulled the trigger and downloaded the PDF or gotten ahold of the book. Its bulk just gives the impression of requiring too much of my time outside work before I even think about playing. Agon, on the other hand, I played semi regularly through a summer because it was a size that I could digest one night, prep the next night, and sit down for a quick game on the weekend, spending maybe forty minutes walking and briefing my players through the rules.

But coming back around to the price of what we'd pay for RPGs, something like a 300 page hardcover book just can't cost $10-15, even though that's the top price I'd really be willing to shell out for a third of a basic RPG system. Just printing and shipping the book will probably cost more than that. Even a high-quality paperback 2/3 that size will often go for around $30, and 3 of them is again beyond a reasonable price for an RPG that I have no experience with.

Where I'm going with this is that if this system can handle any paring down, it likely will need a lot of it in order to make the product more welcoming and to make it logistically possible to sell at a price where folks would be interested in buying. If it can't handle that, you might need to put your expectations somewhere in the lines of a $17 PDF.

[Yora]

I don't want any 3 book/900 pages RPGs ever again. 200 pages plus monsters is the absolute maximum, but I prefer much smaller.

[Aedilred]

Why would futuristic and sci-fi settings use imperial when it is the least common form of measurement.... Sci-Fi specifically makes no sense as imperial since scientists use metric (even american's scientists).

Inevitably, I meant that the other way round. Serves me right for posting late at night.

[Yora]

Umm... what? It's not soulless... just because it's logical doesn't make it soulless.
The logic is "I like my stupid".

[Milo v3]

Inevitably, I meant that the other way round. Serves me right for posting late at night.

Even in medieval fantasy settings metric makes more sense to me. It's more likely for a human shaped culture to come up with metric than it is to come up with imperial, since it's based around 10.

[Frozen_Feet]

The most I've shelled out for a set of RPG books was 120 € for the Gygax memorial Premium versions of the 1st ed AD&D books.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess holds second and third places, with 80 € spent on Red Pleasant Land, Fire on the Velvet Horizon and [black book with Ouroboros on it], and 50 € spent on the Deluxe Edition and several adventures.

Of these, I mostly bought AD&D for the nostalgia value. You can't compete with that, full stop. The rest, are relatively rules light, and the books themselves are fairly small (save for Velvet Horizon), usually less than 100 pages and all less than 300. They're easily stored, easily handled, carried, loaned etc.. Each book (or leaflet, as would be appropriate in some cases) is a discrete whole on their own; I don't really need all of them to play.

In comparison, three 300 page doorstoppers sounds unwieldy. Both physically and in terms of rules. You'd have better luck trying to sell me nine 100 page books.

I absolutely would not buy anything of that lenght as a PDF. God no. Reading that much text from a screen is ridiculous. Better than Any Man was 180 pages, and despite its greatness it was only barely worth the read, and I got that one for free.

[Jay R]

I want to be the ace pilot of a bipedal robot that is 3.3m tall. It has two arms. For weapons it has a solid ax and a light anti-infantry machine gun. It has night vision and roller-blades. The rollerblades increase movement speed, but don't prevent jumping. Is it possible to create a character like this and are these options visible?

A perfect example. If the rules can do this easily and fluidly, I would never use them for a fantasy game, since it is built to pull people away from a classic fantasy world.

[Grinner]

Even in medieval fantasy settings metric makes more sense to me. It's more likely for a human shaped culture to come up with metric than it is to come up with imperial, since it's based around 10.

Is it? A quick survey of Wikipedia and a hazy memory of an appendix in a certain book reveal that humans traditionally used units of measurement based on their appendages (at least for distance). It's only in the last few centuries that standardization around the now-common base-ten Arabic numeral system has really gotten underway.

[Aedilred]

Even in medieval fantasy settings metric makes more sense to me. It's more likely for a human shaped culture to come up with metric than it is to come up with imperial, since it's based around 10.

Than Imperial specifically, probably, but that the majority of measurement systems that metric superseded were non-decimal, it suggests otherwise than that metric is obvious. It's probably more likely for people to come up with counting systems based around ten (or twenty), but not necessarily anything else.


Is it? A quick survey of Wikipedia and a hazy memory of an appendix in a certain book reveal that humans traditionally used units of measurement based on their appendages (at least for distance). It's only in the last few centuries that standardization around the now-common base-ten Arabic numeral system has really gotten underway.

Right.

Imperial (and like systems) is essentially designed from a user perspective upwards based on relatively straightforward and accessible units: parts of the body, the amount of land you can plough in a day, the distance you can travel in a given time, a certain number of paces, and so on, and while these ultimately became abstracted they could still provide a useful rule of thumb. Metric is designed from a holistic global and scientific/mathematical perspective downwards: it all fits together fairly neatly but it's not grounded in the everyday experience of a pre-modern user.

One advantage that Imperial (etc. and likewise LSD money) has over metric is that it tends to divide into whole numbers in a more versatile fashion, too. You can divide a mile by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 or 12 without having to worry about decimals, and usually divide it again too. As soon as you divide even a fairly hefty measure like a kilometre or a hectare by 3 you're into infinitely recurring decimal places, and for an undereducated population that's more of a problem than it might appear. Even now I think the ease of use of decimal is easy to overestimate: on a purely anecdotal level I worked for a while with some colleagues who just couldn't get the hang of measuring in millimetres with a tape measure with a numerical display in centimetres. Their being supposed to measure, say, 1040, and instead measure 1400, was alarmingly common.

[Jormengand]

Guys, can you please get your own thread to talk about freaking paper?

[NichG]

I'm trying to think what information I can give that'd be useful to your actual goals with this thread, given the information provided.

I guess what I'd say is, I generally spend less than $100/year on rulebooks and the like. The last expenditure of that nature was a Kickstarter, where about $50 got me the core rule books, a splatbook, an adventure book, and some miscellaneous stuff. It was a system that I was primed to be very interested in even before I made the purchase decision, rather than something I spontaneously found. I was primarily interested in the PDFs (technically I'm owed a print copy, but I haven't bothered to claim it due to potential shipping costs).

For me, purchases really have to have a specific reason why I want that thing in particular. I don't tend to impulse-buy rules systems. Part of the reason for this is that there are lots of rules systems out there, but only so much time to actually run games. I didn't even end up being able to run the system I did buy (but I managed to get a friend to start up a campaign for it, almost a year after buying it). So adding more to that queue is generally unappealing to me unless it really really stands out.

In addition, I and my players tend to like to mechanically customize games towards our tastes, so extensive canned material isn't that important - distinct, novel ideas are more important. Given those ideas, its often easier for me to just port them to whatever I'm currently running than to port all the other ideas we've snagged and integrated to a new system.

I'm not sure if that's really useful or not to you. I suspect you aren't going to get enough statistics from a small thread like this to get a robust measure of how to price things.

[Segev]

Even in medieval fantasy settings metric makes more sense to me. It's more likely for a human shaped culture to come up with metric than it is to come up with imperial, since it's based around 10.

Demonstrably untrue, given that Imperial predates Metric by a long time, and that Metric was developed inorganically while Imperial evolved from emergent standards.

The reason Imperial is so seemingly nonsensical in its unit conversions is that it originates in what is ultimately not a uniform, universal standard: the human body. A cubit is the length of your forearm. An inch is the length of the last knucklebone of your thumb. A foot is literally the length of your foot. A yard is the length of your arm. Efforts at standardizing these included such things as using the current potentate's body as the official measuring stick. Later efforts picked one of those and nailed it down, then formatted the others to the closest approximation to make them fit. We really do tend to have our feet be just about 12 thumb-knuckles long, and our arms about 3 feet long, if we use our own bodies for the standards. Again, it's not perfect (depending on the person), but it is there.

In a world without machined tools and archived standard unit-items, these measurements made a lot of sense. Even if my cubit and yours is different, it's close enough that we could come to some agreement based on them. Most measurements used daily are rough, anyway.

The original metric system measurements for distance were based on best-calculated estimates of the circumference of the world. It seemed as good a standard as any, though it would also make the idea of why THAT standard is "right" questionable if we ever got off this ball of dirt and onto others. More recently, it's been redefined slightly such that a meter is defined precisely as the distance light travels in a vacuum in a precise amount of time. Even that is related to the somewhat-arbitrarily-chosen unit of time known as the "second," but we've reduced our amount of arbitrariness to a single unit. That's probably as well as can possibly be done.


Thus, no, a metric system is not likely to be more reasonable for a human-shaped being to come up with in a medieval setting. Quite the contrary. In such a setting, where accuracy is not great in the first place and convenience of having your unit of measure literally at your fingertips is superior to precision, something akin to Imperial measures is far more likely. Conversely, in a world where precise, repeatable measurements with easy conversion ratios is more important than ability to "eyeball" a rough figure (as in a sci-fi setting where instrumentation is precise), something like the metric system makes more sense.