Idea for a gestalt Paladin.

[ngilop]

Ok, so I am getting into a game where A) its gestalt and B) the alignment restrictions on Incarnum is ignored and B) the game starts at 9th level.

The backstory is short. we are the only major heroes* in an age and are going into the blasted lands to the east because of some prophecy foretelling of an evil to come and ravage the lands.


My question is thusly

I am going to be a paladin and am thinking of being an incarnate on my other side. With the alignment being lifted IS this a good pairing? The people playing are low optimizers and nobody is going to be doing anything game breakingly.

* by major heroes it is meant above 6th level, or what an 'average' person is capable of doing at an extreme.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd say that, as long as you don't pick terrible choices for the incarnum side, and you keep your build as Cha-SAD as possible, you should be fine. Keep your fighting stat and Con decently high, particularly if you can find a way to get Charisma to everything, such as from the "X-Bonus to Y-Stat" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could gestalt this Paladin build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5), or perhaps just take select elements from it (Divine Defiance + Divine Counterspell + Inquisition domain only costs one level), with Incarnate for a superb character.

Starting at 9th level, you could make a Tauric Creature (Savage Species, MM2, Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)), combining a Human and a Lammasu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) which would have eight racial HD and a +3 LA, but Cleric 7 spellcasting that falls on no particular character level and tons of benefits (wings, pounce, magic circle against evil). Start out RHD 8/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 1// LA +3/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Incarnate 5.

[Metahuman1]

In all honesty, I think I'd advise Crusader instead. If you MUST have paladin on one side, run smart about it. (Ideally, use Paladin of freedom for a start.). Use those turn undead attempts. Travel devotion, Divine Metamagic, things like that to max out the spell casting potential and self buffing potential to help the crusader side. Though truth be told, I think you'd be far better off using Binder or Totemist personally.

[danzibr]

You could gestalt this Paladin build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5), or perhaps just take select elements from it (Divine Defiance + Divine Counterspell + Inquisition domain only costs one level), with Incarnate for a superb character.

Starting at 9th level, you could make a Tauric Creature (Savage Species, MM2, Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)), combining a Human and a Lammasu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) which would have eight racial HD and a +3 LA, but Cleric 7 spellcasting that falls on no particular character level and tons of benefits (wings, pounce, magic circle against evil). Start out RHD 8/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 1// LA +3/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Incarnate 5.
'Das nice.

If you don't want to be as powerful, going straight Incarnate on one side is fine. Incarnate has a lot to bring to the table. Keep in mind if you shape Incarnate Avatar you'll get the benefits from both Lawful and Good.

[ngilop]

I do not want to be a crusader.. if I wanted crusader I would have said in my original post So I want to gestalt crusader with something.


I want paladin on one side, and I am thinking that I can sure up some lose end on the paladin side with some nice boosts via soul melds

also the idea of a Paladin<> Incarnate seems cool the righteous warriors not only calling down powes formt eh forces of good, but alos using said good within him to great effect. for example lamasu mantle, blue steel bracers and other such.

Im concerned with being super powerful I just don't want to end up being completely useless. and I thought well it cannot be any worse that straight paladin.

I know one guy is going Sorcerer<>Swashbuckler and into Abjurant Champion on the sorc side.

another is going Healer<>Bard, I guess for the ultimate in support.

[Ellowryn]

While i understand where you are coming from, i would also recommend against incarnate in this case.

Incarnates, and soul melds in general, are a very passive and support type system. Which is usually good in gestalt since they don't take up any actions or any real resources. The only down side is they don't add much either what with soulmelds being roughly equivalent to magic item , unless you are running a low wealth/crappy pregenned item game (or have Vow of Poverty) in which case it becomes much better.

Paladins on the other hand are a very flavorful class with some neat abilities that just aren't that good. I know that there isn't very much optimization going on in your game, but even compared to the other characters you have listed you are going to fall behind, especially the gish sorcerer.

I would recommend, if you must keep the base paladin class, at least going Favored Soul on the other side, picking up buff and utility spells to complement what the sorcerer and the bard will get.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would strongly recommend at least going Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19 instead of Paladin 20, with Knowledge Devotion, Law or Strength Devotion, and the Inquisition domain from Cleric, the Divine Counterspell ACF in CM for Paladin, and the feat Divine Defiance in FC2. That allows you to spend a use of Turn Undead to counterspell as an immediate action, which you would use Divine Counterspell for and not even need to make a Spellcraft check, and you would make a dispel check to counterspell at 1d20+2+character level or possibly higher. That's usable 1+Cha modifier/day, and your extra turn undead uses (get a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol) can power Law or Strength Devotion.

Incarnate is good (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916) (second post), but you would want to be evil for the best melee soulmelds. Maybe consider going Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), or perhaps something like Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ Contemplative 1/ Warpriest 4// Incarnate 20, using the Wrath domain for Divine Crusader and advancing that class's spellcasting once you pick it up. You can be LE and still retain all the benefits of the Paladin class due to Bone Knight. A Paladin of Tyranny can still do the above Cloistered Cleric dip for counterspelling trick.

[Metahuman1]

If your gonna Incarnum, Totemist might be better since

1: No risk of it increasing MAD

2: Generally better Melee soulmelds for none Evil.



An alternative, take bard on the other side, and optimize the crap out of it. It will Synergize well with Paladin. (Dip Seeker of the Song 2 level and Warblade 1 for best results. Warblade 1 dip should pick up Mountain Hammer, A first level Iron Heart Maneuver of your choosing, Iron Heart Surge, A first level White Raven Stance, and White Raven Tactics. It gives you just a smig more versatility and power, an extra defense, and sets up using Song of the White Raven. Along with Melodic Casting, this can be swift action casting + Bardic Music activation/maintenance for 2 Bardic Songs. That's REALLY potent.).


Added benefits, Paladin has D10 HD, Full BAB, Good Fort Save, Good bit of Mileage out of Cha. Bard has 6 skill ranks a level, an awesome class skill list, Bardic Knack, (Even better if you can spare a feat for Jack of all Trades.), Cha based casting, Good Reflex and Will Saves. The overlap is wonderful here.


Edit: Oh, and let us not forget, Inspire Courage and Knowledge devotion are Great for paying for use of either Power Attack or Stone Power.

[LoyalPaladin]

I would strongly recommend at least going Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19 instead of Paladin 20
I mean... at least Lay On Hands would be doing some serious work.

But yeah, I would second Crusader or Cleric. I'm a Fist of Raziel guy personally. I just like to smite. But if I was gestalting? I'd either take Crusader/Warblade or Cleric/Favored Soul.

[danzibr]

I know one guy is going Sorcerer<>Swashbuckler and into Abjurant Champion on the sorc side.

another is going Healer<>Bard, I guess for the ultimate in support.
Abj Champ, eh? Usually not allowed, but hey, that's cool.

The only down side is they don't add much either what with soulmelds being roughly equivalent to magic item , unless you are running a low wealth/crappy pregenned item game (or have Vow of Poverty) in which case it becomes much better.
What the heck?

Anyway, yeah, I think Paladin//Bard would be awesome (I mean, pure Bard is awesome, and Paladin brings quite a bit to the table), and Cloistered Cleric into Prestige Paladin and whatever would be cool, and I love the Totemist class, and so would encourage Paladin//Totemist as well, I believe that due to

1) the rest of your party not optimizing
2) you wanting to go Paladin//Incarnate for both flavor and Incarnate-being-awesome-in-gestalt reasons

yeah, you should go Paladin//Incarnate. It is far from optimal, which is why people on this board, famous (?) for optimizers, are suggesting other things, but in such a group, even going Paladin 20//Incarnate 20 might be a bit much.

tl;dr In a low-op game, Paladin 20//Incarnate 20, while not optimal, can be quite potent and contribute well. Other builds would be better, but there seems to be no need to go there (and in fact, there may be reason to not go there).

[ExLibrisMortis]

First, I agree with Danzibr. And now, for something completely different...

This (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) is a good paladin build, which has some serious bard-like power.

If you want a paladin a-like, but don't particularly need paladin 20, consider cloistered cleric 3/church inquisitor 1/ordained champion 5/ruby knight vindicator 7//paladin 2/crusader 2/cleric +1/marshal 1/crusader +1/cleric +1/crusader +1/cleric +1/crusader +5/cleric +1. Effectively, thats cleric 3/inquisitor 1/champion 5/vindicator 7//paladin 2/crusader 9/marshal 1/cleric 4. Full cleric casting, full base attack, along with Divine Grace, a minor aura, and those prestige class abilities.

The loose cleric levels compensate for no-casting levels in ordained champion (1st and 4th) and RKV (1st and 7th). You can replace all but one crusader level with paladin levels, if you prefer those abilities. And of course, incarnate can replace those levels, as well.


Another nice build is paladin 20//sorcerer 6/zhentarim skymage 5/legacy champion 9. That's not a LG build, unless you fluff your skymage levels as infiltration (the Zhentarim aren't nice guys).

Legacy champion advances skymage, giving you nearly full casting, but more importantly, you get a flying mount with HD equal to your charisma modifier + your skymage level. In this case, that means a minimum of 12 HD at level 20, and a charisma modifier of +11 should be easy enough to get. You can now ride an adult gold dragon. It doesn't count as paladin mount, by RAW, but ask your DM for stacking rules (actually, don't; it's a pretty broken ability to begin with, and advancing it with legacy champion is just cheesy).