Building a Cleric [First time in Pathfinder]

[AmbientRaven]

Hi Folks,

A uni friend is starting a fortnightly Pathfinder campaign and asked me to play. I haven't play pathfinder But I have played 3.5 (years ago).
So far I know the party will have 2 rogues, the others are yet to decide and the world setting is one of the GM's own making.

I'd love some advise on how to build this cleric. I don't want one optimized, but I would like to build it to fit the characters theme.
I mostly play 5e, and there are a lot more feats and feat pathways in Pathfinder, which si why I am after some help with the class.

The character is based form a recurring Random Encounter in games i have GM'd. The character is simply called "The Old Man Traveler". He travels across time, planes, and planets seeking who he is. If the party asks him to join their campfire, offer him food and a place to sleep, he leaves them a boon. If they don't, he curses them.
I decided to play him as an earlier version of this.

This is his fluff

(In this settings Ishaq is a chaotic good god of oceans, travel, weather, warriors)

Traveller awoke on a clear sunny day aboard a Temple ship of Ishaq. He awoke with no memory of who he was, where he was from, where he was, or why he was there.
After awaking, the Priests of Ishaq sensed a kindred spirit, and accepted him amongst them. He enjoyed the days travelling across the oceans on the Temple Ship. Always feeling the pull to move on, never able to stay in one point for too long. The days he spent with the priests of Ishaq were enjoyable; but he never felt the same affinity for Ishaq that the priests seemed to have. In his time with the priests, his divine abilities began to show, which caused closer ties with the priests on the ship. After some time though, he felt the need to move on, even from the ever traveling ship. After two years on the temple ship he felt the urge to travel to places the Temple Ship could not travel, to the land.
Driven by his desire to know who he was, and where he was from he began traveling across the lands, trying to find any clue as to who he was. The need to travel and keep moving driving him ever on wards.


I am going to build him as a Buffer/Debuffer in line with his older selfs random encounter (a friend told me this is called a bad touch cleric with a dip of support cleric). He will take travel domain and possibly chaos domain (chaos due to the fact that he goes where his feet take him, following no set plan or path). I was considering time as well (If my DM allows it as it's 3rd party content.)

I'll be starting as human, and i get a 15 pt buy in for stats.
I was thinking 14 str 12 dex 13 con 16 wis 10 int 10 cha (includes human +2 bonus which is in wis). This is open to change, as I was kinda guessing whats needed

As to Feats I really don't know what to go as they are vastly different to 5e. I've seen recommendations for combat casting, improved unarmed strike, domain strike (does this only work ana mount of times the same as the domain ablity, or does it add it to every strike even if it exceeds the allowed limit)

I plan to go Chaotic Neuteral, but I am unsure about positive or negative energy channeling.

Thanks for any feedback/help!

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're planning on using debuffs, then cranking your wis as high as it will go is in your best interest (every 2 points in wis increases your save DCs by 1). 3.P has no cap on ability scores, and having a starting 18 is very helpful (a good goal by level 20 is to have at least 36 in your primary casting stat so you can cast two extra 9ths instead of 1; pumping int or wis to that level can be tricky if you're not using too much op). Just note that optimization does not preclude having a flavourful character; in fact, op can make it easier to achieve the concept you're looking for, regardless of whether the concept lends itself to a high- or low-op character.

Swapping your 2 extra points in dex to con will also give you an extra +1 hp/lvl; the +1 AC you get from the dex isn't as useful as the hp. Dex effects your reflex save, while con increases your fort save -- fort is a more important save than reflex (ref saves only prevent hp damage; fort and will saves protect you from instant death).

Are 3.5 sources allowed in your game, or is this PF-only? Note that in PF, energy channeling is much weaker than it was in 3.5 without a lot of investment, so focusing your resources elsewhere might be advisable.

If you're unsure of what feats to pick up, then item creation feats or cheap (+0 to +2) metamagic are good all-round picks. Also, please forgive me if you already know any of this. Given that you say you've been away from this edition for a while, it's difficult to judge your system mastery. If there's any questions about general game mechanics that you need to know in order to make choices (such as the varying importance of the three saving throws), don't hesitate to ask.

[AmbientRaven]

If you're planning on using debuffs, then cranking your wis as high as it will go is in your best interest (every 2 points in wis increases your save DCs by 1). 3.P has no cap on ability scores, and having a starting 18 is very helpful (a good goal by level 20 is to have at least 36 in your primary casting stat so you can cast two extra 9ths instead of 1; pumping int or wis to that level can be tricky if you're not using too much op). Just note that optimization does not preclude having a flavourful character; in fact, op can make it easier to achieve the concept you're looking for, regardless of whether the concept lends itself to a high- or low-op character.

Swapping your 2 extra points in dex to con will also give you an extra +1 hp/lvl; the +1 AC you get from the dex isn't as useful as the hp. Dex effects your reflex save, while con increases your fort save -- fort is a more important save than reflex (ref saves only prevent hp damage; fort and will saves protect you from instant death).

Are 3.5 sources allowed in your game, or is this PF-only? Note that in PF, energy channeling is much weaker than it was in 3.5 without a lot of investment, so focusing your resources elsewhere might be advisable.

If you're unsure of what feats to pick up, then item creation feats or cheap (+0 to +2) metamagic are good all-round picks. Also, please forgive me if you already know any of this. Given that you say you've been away from this edition for a while, it's difficult to judge your system mastery. If there's any questions about general game mechanics that you need to know in order to make choices (such as the varying importance of the three saving throws), don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks for the response!!

I know 5e very well (I dm & play it weekly) but 3.5 is very rusty!

We have a 15pt buy and no stat may exceed 15 from pt buy
Character Creation Rules
15 Point Buy

You start with an extra 500 gold.

You may select one trait from non-campaign, non-Golarion material.

You may select a second trait from the traits I am making for the Heart of the Void campaign.

Featured Races are allowed under certain conditions. Talk to me if you want to play a featured race.

Uncommon Races are allowed under certain conditions. Talk to me if you want to play a featured race.

No Hybrid classes.

Most archetypes are okay.


What I meant about optimization is I don't want to optimize at the cost of RP/Character, but if it fits the theme, it's fine.

Sources are PF only, though it is open for discussion.

So stats f 14/10/14/10/16/10? I don't really wan't to drop anything below 10 as it doesn't suit the character

What sort of meta magic feats? I believe I start with 2 feats being human.
A friend recommended a 1 monk dip as a bad touch cleric for free feats/stunning fist

How would improved initiative go as well, as I have no Dex, acting early can help get buffs out before wading in to debuff

[BWR]

Unless you plan on doing a lot of melee, use Strength as a dump stat and increase Charisma, which your channels key off of for DC and times per day. Dex is also not particularly important. Unless you plan on being attacked a lot and using Dex based attacks, Constitution is more important than Dexterity (hit points and Fortitude saves are generally better than AC and Reflex saves).

I have to disagree with Giles on channelling. PF channeling is far more useful and powerful than 3.5 turning. You are harder pressed to find feats to allow you to channel to gain general buffs like the various Divine feats in 3.5, sure, but you don't need to use any feats to be useful on almost all occasions since healing is almost always useful. Since you won't have a terribly high Charisma, you're probably better off using healing channels, most likely out of combat. Combat channels require Selective Channel and a decent Charisma score, especially if used offensively.
Though generally less powerful than straight channelling, you might find the variant channels (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/cleric.html) fun.

[AmbientRaven]

Unless you plan on doing a lot of melee, use Strength as a dump stat and increase Charisma, which your channels key off of for DC and times per day. Dex is also not particularly important. Unless you plan on being attacked a lot and using Dex based attacks, Constitution is more important than Dexterity (hit points and Fortitude saves are generally better than AC and Reflex saves).

I have to disagree with Giles on channelling. PF channeling is far more useful and powerful than 3.5 turning. You are harder pressed to find feats to allow you to channel to gain general buffs like the various Divine feats in 3.5, sure, but you don't need to use any feats to be useful on almost all occasions since healing is almost always useful. Since you won't have a terribly high Charisma, you're probably better off using healing channels, most likely out of combat. Combat channels require Selective Channel and a decent Charisma score, especially if used offensively.
Though generally less powerful than straight channelling, you might find the variant channels (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/cleric.html) fun.

The party so far are 2 rogues and a non combat skill monkey. So far I need to be a bit front line, which is why i plan to build a bad touch style character to debuff, with some support to help the rogues along. SO i will most likely be in melee combat

[The Vagabond]

Looking at your class list- Yeah, you'll probably need support. That, or just more bodies- Rouges are VERY reliant on flanking. As it is- Looking at your class composition, you're probably going to be in for a bad time- Neither a front line fighter, or a Arcane Spellcaster, by the look of it. You'll need a lot of help- As such, I come in with SEVERAL recomendations:

First, ask your DM if you're using the Rouge Unchained (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained). It's Pazio's update to the Rouge class, so it's probably going to be passed if he would permit it. This will significantly boost your teammates, which they'll probably need.

Secondly, class features: Spellcasting is based upon your Wisdom score- Your wisdom must be equal to the spell level plus ten to cast a spell- So you should probably get on that. Channel energy is based on charisma, you gain 3 + cha mod channel energies per day.

That's the first thing I would recomend. They'll probably not be able to put out as much damage output as the game's expecting, so that's just my two cents on that matter. However, you can boost their ability to fight by reducing the ammount your Channel Energy heals: The Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist) archetype is a pretty good archetype, granting you Inspire Courage to bolster your allies ability to deal damage, at the price of 3d6 of your channel energy over several levels. The loss of spontaneous cure might be a bit of a sore spot with your party members, so, assuming your DM grants you proper Wealth By Level (WBL), you should grab a ton of CLW (Cure Light Wounds) wands- Not your whole WBL, but most of it. They are the most effective one.
However, despite your Channel Energy being reletively weak, you can derive something surprisingly useful out of it- Variant Channeling (Cities) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/variant-channeling) grants allies who are flanking a +1 bonus to attack rolls and AC to folks who are flanking. Rouges should be flanking whenever they can.

Secondly- You need Wisdom in order to actually cast spells. Your current stat array literally cannot use the core class feature of your class. However, 15 point buy is kinda weak, but who knows- Anyway, from here, there are two paths: Support, or murder machine. This will determine your stat array:
If you go with killing everyone: Go with STR>CON>WIS>DEX>INT>CHA. With this, your going to focus on buffing yourself to murder everyone, so your debuffs will be reletively weak, with only 14 starting Wisdom.
If your bad touch, go with this: Wis>Dex>Str>Con>Cha>Int
If you're rolling with pure support, go with this: CON>WIS>CHA>STR>INT>DEX

And, finally, I, personally, would recommend AGAINST cleric. I would recomend Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner), if you're not using the Unchained variant, however, that's most likely banned, so I would recomend, in later levels (Around level 5 or so), prepare Summon Monster with Sacred Summons, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-summons) in order to provide your Rouges with flank buddies to ensure they gain flank bonuses and sneak attack. If not, you're in for a bad time as they whiff their shots and their damage is minimal.

In finishing that: I would recomend you read This Cleric Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en) to get a good idea about how to prepare your character.

[Geddy2112]

The party so far are 2 rogues and a non combat skill monkey. So far I need to be a bit front line, which is why i plan to build a bad touch style character to debuff, with some support to help the rogues along. SO i will most likely be in melee combat

If the non combat skill monkey can't contribute anything, the party is going to probably die in the first encounter. Now if they are a buff bard or arcane caster then you can focus less on buffing and debuffing. I would strongly suggest you channel positive energy, and cities, bravery/valor or protection for a variant. Undead are going to be tough for the party to fight in early levels, and you need the healing. You need at least a 12 in charisma to get extra channels, and 4 a day is not a lot
Travel is an amazing domain, and trade is a decent subdomain if you want to swap it up. Since you get +10 to movement speed, take some medium armor so you don't have to worry about dex as much for AC boosting- Chainmail is cheapest for the best AC boost, although if you can get eastern 4 mirror or kikko armor is dirt cheap for protection. Throw on a shield as you can cast/debuff with just one free hand. Take a buckler if you think you might need both.
In the chaos domain, consider entropy, protean or whimsy for subdomains. All have decent debuff spells that replace the otherwise meh chaos domain spells, and their abilities are all debuffs replacing giving your weapon anarchic(which is meh).

Dumping intelligence will mean few skill points, but the rogues and skillmonkey will be able to do just about everything and you won't be able to keep up in anything they have as a favored skill. Spellcraft and knowledge religion are the only ones you need maxed. A single rank in heal, nobility and history, then a decent score in planar and call it a day. A bonus to strength is good, but most touch AC is going to be fairly low so 14 should be sufficient. Dex 10 is fine with heavier armor and improved initiative(which is one of the best feats in the game), con 14 for bonus to saves and HP.

Monk is a trap-you lose your ability to wear armor and become incredibly MAD. You would probably need higher dex, and then weapon finesse to touch on DEX instead of strength. Stunning fist is just not that good. Unarmed strike and domain strike all still require hitting full AC, while powers hit on touch and spells. A level in monk also slows your spellcasting increase, and as a cleric spells are your bread and butter. Combat casting is a good feat for any full casting class, but critical since you will be using touch attacks and setting up flanking opportunities for the rogues.

+1 to The vagrant for suggesting sacred summons and summoning in general.

[Nibbens]

Every Cleric I ever played, selective channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/selective-channeling---final) is a must. Being able to get closer to your party members and not accidentally heal the enemies with channel is imperative. This also means switching out one of your 14's with your charisma. Charisma is important for a cleric too!
Also extra channel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-channel---final) is a great feat for any support type cleric.

[AmbientRaven]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the feed back!

What stat allocation would you recommend then based on a 15 pt buy?

[Geddy2112]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the feed back!

What stat allocation would you recommend then based on a 15 pt buy?

Str:14
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:8
Wis:16(+2 human here)
Cha:12

Could also do a 14 in con and 10 in dex, up to you.