So....could Vamp Durkon take on the whole room?

[CowardlyPaladin]

IN comic 987, Durkon mentions the possiblity of murdering the whole room if anybody can cast resurrection, so my question is.....could he have done it? Obviously we don't know the levels of our newest friends here, but the favored souls is at least high enough level to cast resurrection, so at bare minimum that is level 14. I don't know what the other guy is, but he looks to be a ranger, maybe a Druid, since the tiger i'm guessing his his animal companion. He has a shield over his shoulder, so I am thinking not a druid, but he didn't offer to help with resurrection, so not a cleric. I mean he might just be a fighter with a pet tiger. Regardless, I doubt he is any higher level than his compion, so lets slot him down as level 13, since she seems special. And then we have Roy, whose lever is uncertain but does have a +5 undead bane greatsword. Even assuming Vamp Durkon gets a surprise round, could he actually have taken on the entire room? Obviously the rest of Oots aren't around to help, but Roy is quite tough. Against them is a vampire, who if Class Geekery could be believed is at least level 14 cleric, and a vampire, so that is regeneration, lots of hit points, domination ability, and as far as I know haven't used any cleric spells yet. But still, that sounds like an uneven fight.

[Morquard]

Durkon knows Roy and his weaknesses maybe better than everyone else. Which means HPoH most likely knows them. He knows that if the Order is ever turning against him, taking out Roy is one of the top priorities (V is another I'd say), so it's not unreasonable to assume he has a spell prepared to exploit that weakness - whatever it is - and take Roy out of the equation in one round.

As for the others, I don't know

[Buckethead]

Considering how Roy's sword is extra effective against undead, and Roy is at least his level before the vampire modifier, and this pink haired favored soul is capable of 9th level spells... I'd have to vote for no I doubt he could kill them all if he went "mua-ha roll initiative!" If he's clever and subtle he could do almost anything though.

[kgato503]

First off, I don't think Wrecan is the "owner" of Little Whiskers. Based off the dialogue, I think it belongs to Veldrina. I also think they are both fairly powerful, based on the fact that A) She is a high preistess and B) She represents the combines western and elven pantheons. And if she is that powerful, and has a bodyguard, that bodyguard is at least as powerful (in different ways) or more powerful than she is (even it it might only be in common sense :smalltongue:).

Between them and Roy, it would be a hard fight for the HPoH. He might be underestimating them some. I might be overestimating them some. We also do not know all of his abilities as a vampire, which could affect the outcome. I do think he wrote them off too easily, since, if he killed Roy, it would cause a lot of other problems for him, and he doesn't know much about his potential opponents.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Considering how Roy's sword is extra effective against undead, and Roy is at least his level before the vampire modifier, and this pink haired favored soul is capable of 9th level spells... I'd have to vote for no I doubt he could kill them all if he went "mua-ha roll initiative!" If he's clever and subtle he could do almost anything though.

wait she knows 9th level spells?


As to the fight.


Well the HPoH would have hte suprrise round, since he could act before everybody else could, but I don't know what spell he could have which could take Roy out in a single round (anybody have any ideas? Something a level 14-16 cleric could pull off). As a vampire he has dominate, energy drain, bite, shapechange, creatures of the night, and regeneration I believe.

[Kornaki]

wait she knows 9th level spells?


As to the fight.


Well the HPoH would have hte suprrise round, since he could act before everybody else could, but I don't know what spell he could have which could take Roy out in a single round (anybody have any ideas? Something a level 14-16 cleric could pull off). As a vampire he has dominate, energy drain, bite, shapechange, creatures of the night, and regeneration I believe.

Dominate would be a way to take Roy out in one round, despite Durkon's belief that Roy could resist it.

Regardless, I think he is observing that it would be necessary to make the attempt more than claiming it would be a relatively risk free endeavor. He's talking a gamble, and it usually hurts when you lose them. I doubt he's so unaware as to be ignorant of that.

[Ulthwithian]

High-level Clerics have any number of spells to kill the opposition.

Just off the top of my head:

1) Destruction (Fort save, not good against Roy)
2) Hold Monster (possibly, not likely Lawful)
3) Harm + Quickened Spell (Malack cheese works just as well here)
4) Slay Living

That's not counting the Vampiric Dominate ability, or whatever else may be in that Staff.

Interesting, though, that Durkula almost certainly has Cure spells and Lesser Restorations prepared, just to maintain the Masquerade. (Pun intended.) While he can spontaneously cast Inflict spells with those slots, beyond healing himself, it's not likely to do a whole lot.

Out of curiosity, has anyone considered that maybe the tiger IS Tiger, or the High Priest of Tiger (South Continent God)?

Anyway, if Wrecan is a Ranger, and the tiger's his Animal Companion, I don't think that Durkula would win. Each of them (except Roy) has two good saves, and it's unlikely that Durkula has a spell that can get rid of all of them at once.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well Roy does have a very high wisdom, so I don't think dominate would be possible. However the Harm plus quicked inflict, that could get ride of Roy in a round I admit, and two spells down. Though since he has a good will, Roy might be able to make the save for half damage. Hold Person might work against the elf through, so a Harm, and if it didn't work, quickened Hold Person.

[gia]

Well Roy does have a very high wisdom, so I don't think dominate would be possible.

He wouldn't start with Roy, he's his ally, he'd start attempting to dominate one of the others, and keep trying until successful, once successful make them try to actually kill him (but failing by an inch, "I was just pretending I didn't care! He's a vampire we must kill him!"), if they noticed the attempt, they would try to kill him anyway, so you know the outcome in advance, he'd just need to watch his words so they made sense to Roy so he doesn't turn on him. Once accusations are over and the fight breaks out Roy will be forced to join on Durkula's side. Only once you have the battle in your favor you backstab Roy.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Probably not in a straight fight but he might be counting on surprise and mind games.

[Kish]

Resurrection is not a ninth level spell. Veldrina said she's capable of casting seventh-level spells, not ninth-level ones.

The High Priest of Hel "not likely Lawful"? Really?

[goodpeople25]

Resurrection is not a ninth level spell. Veldrina said she's capable of casting seventh-level spells, not ninth-level ones.

The High Priest of Hel "not likely Lawful"? Really?
I assumed the poster meant the law domain which does have hold monster. But that is a bit weird as i thought vampires did not have access to the law domain anyway

[Gray Mage]

Well Roy does have a very high wisdom, so I don't think dominate would be possible. However the Harm plus quicked inflict, that could get ride of Roy in a round I admit, and two spells down. Though since he has a good will, Roy might be able to make the save for half damage. Hold Person might work against the elf through, so a Harm, and if it didn't work, quickened Hold Person.

I won't comment on the odds on a story level, but going by the mechanics I'd say it's more probable he'd fall than not (50%+). And Dominate woul not only take Roy from the fact, it'd make him be on the HPoH's side, making it a 2v2.

Edit: With the HPoH as a 14th level Cleric (low estimate) with 12 cha (lowish estimate), Roy as a 15th to 17th level Fighter needs a +3 wis mod (high-ish estimate) to have a 50% chance of making the save.

[Thrair]

Durkula has a much higher Charisma than that. In addition to needing the bluff checks, I'm pretty sure Vampires get a racial bonus to it. It is, after all, their replacement for Con.


But, on the other side of the coin, Roy seems the type to invest in things like Iron Will and the like. And we know he's got very high overall stats: Int on par with Suvie, high Wisdom score (only one with a decent spot check, to boot), good Con/Strength. If he has a dump stat, it might be Dex.

So he's probably got a surprisingly good Will Save.

Hold Person wouldn't work on the elf, iirc. Pretty sure they're immune to Paralysis in 3.5. But it's been a while, so I might be wrong.

[Arutema]

Hold Person wouldn't work on the elf, iirc. Pretty sure they're immune to Paralysis in 3.5. But it's been a while, so I might be wrong.

Only from ghoul's paralysis, see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)

[lonewolf1210]

Whatever the second step would be, the first one should be blaspemy. While it is unlikely to outright kill anyone here, its enough to disable everyone for at least a round and possibly longer.

[factotum]

I'd say he'd have a good chance at it. Damage reduction, Domination, and all the abilities of a maybe 15th-level cleric is a pretty powerful package all told, especially when he gets total surprise on everyone present; and even if the battle goes badly for him he can just go gaseous and fly out the door. We also don't know exactly what abilities the favoured soul has; we know she's not a cleric and also can't cast all cleric spells, so she's not going to be as dangerous as a full-blown cleric her level would be.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that the High Priest of Hel has a pretty good chance at it. He is a relatively high-level Cleric after all. It is kind of hard to judge without knowing the power level of Wrecan, though.

[littlebum2002]

Well, Veldrina doesn't seem to have extrodinarially high Wisdom (especially since it's a secondary stat for her class), so you Dominate her first, then you have 2 "Clerics" (and probably a tiger, although his fighting ability is in question) against two melee users? No contest.

[Gray Mage]

Well, Veldrina doesn't seem to have extrodinarially high Wisdom (especially since it's a secondary stat for her class), so you Dominate her first, then you have 2 "Clerics" (and probably a tiger, although his fighting ability is in question) against two melee users? No contest.

Actualy, she almost certantly has a better Will save than Roy, as her class has a good will save progression, and that is without counting any wis mod she may have (even with a small penalty she could have a better Will save than Roy).

[Psyren]

Could he? Sure, but it depends on a lot of factors - the spells he prepared, who he attacks first, what spell or ability he leads with, the good characters' defenses (saves, hit points, touch AC, gear etc.) Certainly he would get the drop on them and could possibly even win, but I doubt it would be nearly as easy as Darkon is making it sound.

[littlebum2002]

Actualy, she almost certantly has a better Will save than Roy, as her class has a good will save progression, and that is without counting any wis mod she may have (even with a small penalty she could have a better Will save than Roy).

That is very true, totally forgot about her huge Will save.

I still think it's possible, but it's gonna be hard.

[CowardlyPaladin]

With the possible exception of Tiger man, I don't think Durkon can easily dominate people with his vampire ability, (Roy is mentioned by Durkon as having the ability to resist) but Blasphemy +Harm, and then in the following Round.....I don't know actually, any ideas? Because the High Priest is going to want to inflict as much damage as possible in the opening round, and Blasphemy will buy him an extra round, and if he wins initiative (unlikely) he can do even more damage. So he has 4 actions to debilitate the party so Slay living maybe?

I mean he also could just touch the elf lady and drain her highest level spells

[pendell]

especially when he gets total surprise on everyone present;


Wrecan is already suspicious; I don't think he'd be surprised at all if Durkula suddenly attacked.

He's going to need some way to stun everyone in the room for as many rounds as possible. The problem is I'm pretty sure that Wrecan and his charge are both at least as high level as Roy is; whichever one you take out first, the other two are going to prove an extremely difficult challenge.

Following the golden rule of "Geek the mage first", I'd attack Veldrina and drain her as far as I could, then start on Roy. If Veldrina possesses Heal, that is the most dangerous threat in the room.

The problem is, being double-teamed by Roy and Wrecan will be challenging to say the least, especially if Wrecan has a wand or two tucked away. I suspect we're going to need to go gaseous and do some guerrilla warfare in the hopes of taking them out , one at a time.

I'd say the odds are about 3-1 against Durkula pulling it off, but if his cover is blown he will have no choice but to try.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

even if one of the fighters get dominated, protection from evil will take care of it.
on the other hand, without armor veldrina seems quite squishy, so if the warriors get dominated, she won't survive long enough to use it.
also, roy has the feat that lets him attack a caster even if he's casting defensively. and in a close situation, without a mean of avoiding an attack of opportunity, a caster may actually be at a disadvantage.
So i would say that the most important factor is whether roy will make his saving throw against domination.

All things considered, I'd say it could go either way. it wouldd of course be a huge risk for durkula to try it, but there would have been no other way to keep the cover if veldrina had the power of casting resurrection.

[Doug Lampert]

He wouldn't start with Roy, he's his ally, he'd start attempting to dominate one of the others, and keep trying until successful, once successful make them try to actually kill him (but failing by an inch, "I was just pretending I didn't care! He's a vampire we must kill him!"), if they noticed the attempt

You always know if you succeed at a will save. If they resist domination, they know the attempt was made.

[Doug Lampert]

Durkula has a much higher Charisma than that. In addition to needing the bluff checks, I'm pretty sure Vampires get a racial bonus to it. It is, after all, their replacement for Con.

They get a racial +4, Durkon has low charisma and dwarves in general have a -2 penalty. HPoH having 12-13 charisma strikes me as overwhelmingly likely, class and level geekery says <14 for the vampire form, which also gives a +1 Cha mod as the maximum.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well ok, if I was the Priest of Hel, who would I deem the greatest threat.

Elf Girl can possibly cast heal, that can't be tolerated.

Roy has that greatsword


Wrecen is an unknown


Tiger can be regenerated.



So........Blasphemy+level drain the Favored Soul 1st round, second round would be, another level drain and maybe slay living? What else could he do to take them out.


A hit and run tactic would be disastrous for the Priest, because then the rest of the order could get involved.

[Morty]

Considering the Giant's approach towards the minitua of D&D rules, I'd consider Durkon's belief that Roy wouldn't be easily dominated by Malack to be more important than mechanical considerations.

[Gnoman]

Don't forget that Roy's immediate reaction to "sure, I can revive him" would be to pull out his sword and say "Hold still, Durkon", as he's under the (accurate) impression that that's what Durkon wants (although he is also under the inaccurate impression that Durkon is in control of his body), which would greatly reduce the viability of a surprise attack - Roy would already have sword in hand and mentally preparing to drive it into a close friend.

[Alchemist_Fire]

Surprise Round - Snap Vel's neck
Round 1 - Hold Person on Roy / Wrecan

[littlebum2002]

Surprise Round - Blasphemy
Round 1 - Snap Vel's neck
Round 2 - Hold Person on Roy / Wrecan

Good call, but this gives him a chance to not have swords swinging at him for at least a round.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Surprise Round - Snap Vel's neck
Round 1 - Hold Person on Roy / Wrecan

She is conscious, I doubt he could take her out in a single neck snap.

[Rakoa]

I would, without a doubt, tally up the Hippo's backup plan to overconfidence rather than any sure guarantees. He is totally outnumbered, and likely outclassed. To be brutally honest, I'm not sure he could even take Roy in a solo battle, furthermore with the backing of a minimum 15th level spontaneous divine caster, and whatever the heck Wrecan is.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Eh....in a one on one fight with roy, The Priest has the advantage of being the same level plus vampire (maybe even a level higher) and we all know about how Clerics and fighters fare. Thought the sword does complicate matters.

[TurtlesAWD]

The high priest wouldn't necessarily have needed to fight three (or four) on one if he could first manipulate them into turning on each other. Maybe through charm spells or stealth-dominating the tiger, if that works on animals? I doubt he could bluff Roy into murdering a cleric and her bodyguard through non-magical means but if he could get them to scuffle with each other it would probably only help his odds.

[Douglas]

I would, without a doubt, tally up the Hippo's backup plan to overconfidence rather than any sure guarantees.
I'd say desperation, not overconfidence. In the face of an actual opportunity to raise Durkon, either he goes along with it (not an option) or the charade is instantly exposed to everyone present. That reduces his options to either abandoning the charade entirely or containing the leak by force, and if his goal requires maintaining the charade then that just leaves killing everyone or dying in the attempt.

In short, if Veldrina actually could cast Resurrection, killing everyone in the room is HPoH's only option. He has to do it, or his goal and purpose for existence is forfeit.

[Maryring]

Keep in mind that Roy has practised a technique for disrupting spellcasters. It's likely that Roy would be able to disrupt any and all of Durkula's spells as long as he's able to act.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Keep in mind that Roy has practised a technique for disrupting spellcasters. It's likely that Roy would be able to disrupt any and all of Durkula's spells as long as he's able to act.

It might not work on divine spell casters who have higher strength/con though.


And clearly the High Priest is somewhat confident, because he doesn't say "escape" he says kill

[Douglas]

And clearly the High Priest is somewhat confident, because he doesn't say "escape" he says kill
Escape would still be abandoning the charade, and might therefore not be an option.

[Kish]

But that is a bit weird as i thought vampires did not have access to the law domain anyway
I doubt that 1) Rich, or 2) most DMs, treats the section of the MM on what domains a cleric converted into a vampire gets access to as trumping the domain choices of a vampire cleric who worships a specific god.

[Rakoa]

I'd say desperation, not overconfidence.

Good point. My only reason for not going with desperation was the lack of the word "try" in addition to "kill everyone in the room". He has been pretty open with Durkon so far (in so far as not revealing his plan, because as Tarquin taught us, we don't know it yet as readers), almost certainly because he knows that Durkon is absolutely helpless to stop him.

Or maybe he just likes tormenting Durkon with the thought that all his friends could die at any moment, though it may not be true.


I doubt that 1) Rich, or 2) most DMs, treats the section of the MM on what domains a cleric converted into a vampire gets access to as trumping the domain choices of a vampire cleric who worships a specific god.

I know I would certainly ignore that "rule".

[TurtlesAWD]

I think the odds of the high priest taking the whole room on at once and winning are probably slim... but I think he would have a better chance if he could divide and conquer. He would have a tough time splitting them up I think, given that Wrecan at least has a good healthy case of vampire suspicion, but Roy and Veldrina might trust him at face value. And unless there's rules on vampire creation I don't know about, any of them he defeated one on one would become an asset to use against the next one. Even with a strategy like that though I still wouldn't rate his odds very high.

[jidasfire]

I'm not sure how the rules on domination work, but assuming it's not obvious he's doing it (and based on the scene with the gnome priest, it's not), he could just continually attempt to dominate the two warriors until they failed their saves, then have them hack Veldrina to pieces before they did the same to each other. If anyone was lucky enough to break free, he could probably handle them in their weakened state.

[Sermil]

And unless there's rules on vampire creation I don't know about, any of them he defeated one on one would become an asset to use against the next one.

Doesn't the turning-into-a-vampire require him to drain their blood, not just defeat them? And the blood-draining would take several rounds. So it's not just a matter of slay-living + use the staff's insta-vamp spell => new vampire ally.

(Though the staff's spell is 'obscure' which I take it means homebrew, so maybe it can vamp all sorts of dead bodies, not just ones drained of their blood? I find it unlikely given that Malack spent all that time draining Durkon.)

[Douglas]

Doesn't the turning-into-a-vampire require him to drain their blood, not just defeat them? And the blood-draining would take several rounds. So it's not just a matter of slay-living + use the staff's insta-vamp spell => new vampire ally.
Yes, it does.


(Though the staff's spell is 'obscure' which I take it means homebrew, so maybe it can vamp all sorts of dead bodies, not just ones drained of their blood? I find it unlikely given that Malack spent all that time draining Durkon.)
My reading of that spell is that it requires a corpse that would rise as a vampire anyway, and merely makes it happen immediately instead of days later.

[Itrogash]

I'm not sure how the rules on domination work, but assuming it's not obvious he's doing it (and based on the scene with the gnome priest, it's not), he could just continually attempt to dominate the two warriors until they failed their saves, then have them hack Veldrina to pieces before they did the same to each other. If anyone was lucky enough to break free, he could probably handle them in their weakened state.
As far as I recall, you are always aware that you used your save so it wouldn't work. Even Roy would get suspicious after having used a will save, and Wrecan would raise hell immediately.

[Douglas]

As far as I recall, you are always aware that you used your save so it wouldn't work. Even Roy would get suspicious after having used a will save, and Wrecan would raise hell immediately.
Yes, any time you succeed on a save you are automatically aware that the save happened. If it was against a spell and you have Spellcraft, you can attempt to identify the spell too.

Attempting to Dominate someone risks starting combat immediately if it fails.

[Killer Angel]

...or maybe HPoH, even if ready to fight, isn't really so sure to win the combat, and was only feinting a "careless brag". A show for Durkon, to humiliate him.

[Gift Jeraff]

It wouldn't be the first time a vampire cleric overestimated his ability to kill his temporary "allies."

[Sith_Happens]

Don't forget that Roy's immediate reaction to "sure, I can revive him" would be to pull out his sword and say "Hold still, Durkon", as he's under the (accurate) impression that that's what Durkon wants (although he is also under the inaccurate impression that Durkon is in control of his body), which would greatly reduce the viability of a surprise attack - Roy would already have sword in hand and mentally preparing to drive it into a close friend.

Destroying an undead before Resurrecting it is only necessary if you're using a piece of it (or a piece of the corpse from before it rose). If the undead itself is on hand you just have to touch it after casting the spell. You can find that rule in the undead type traits.


I doubt that 1) Rich, or 2) most DMs, treats the section of the MM on what domains a cleric converted into a vampire gets access to as trumping the domain choices of a vampire cleric who worships a specific god.

Hel's domains and the generic vampire domains probably have a lot of overlap anyways.

Anyways, I'd say Durkon wins this hypothetical encounter if and only if he gets Roy alone and is able to Dominate him on the first try. Otherwise Power Attack with a +5 undead-bane greatsword laughs at his DR and fast healing and each Harm he has prepared will cover at most two full attacks of such. Which could still work out to a Durkula victory if he was only fighting Roy, but he wouldn't be.

[dps]

Good call, but this gives him a chance to not have swords swinging at him for at least a round.

Not sure he'd really care that much about a few sword cuts. In addition to the advantages of being a vampire, he still has Durkon's heavy armor. He should still be a pretty decent melee fighter

[Maryring]

It might not work on divine spell casters who have higher strength/con though.


And clearly the High Priest is somewhat confident, because he doesn't say "escape" he says kill

What con? Durkola is a vampire. :smalltongue:

I'd think V would actually have a higher chance of making the concentration check on account of probably having more ranks in concentration. Clerics have very few skill points, and Durkon appears to not have spent them too wisely, what with a severe lack in ranks of Knowledge: Religion.

[TurtlesAWD]

Maybe he doesn't have ranks in knowledge (religion) because he was busy putting those skill points in concentration :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Destroying an undead before Resurrecting it is only necessary if you're using a piece of it (or a piece of the corpse from before it rose). If the undead itself is on hand you just have to touch it after casting the spell. You can find that rule in the undead type traits.

We know for a fact that OotS is not using that rule, then, because they had to explicitly destroy the bone golem Roy's corpse had been made into before Durkon could resurrect him (see strip #649).

[dancrilis]

So....could Vamp Durkon take on the whole room?
Yes.

Would he?
Depends on how prepared he is - and he is likely prepared for his bluff failing and having to deal with the entire order.

If he uses spell outside of the players guide for example Necrotic Tumor he has a good chance of allowing him to quickly win over the entire room - or lay the ground work for killing them.

Or any other somewhat broken spell that Hel has allowed him.

[Douglas]

We know for a fact that OotS is not using that rule, then, because they had to explicitly destroy the bone golem Roy's corpse had been made into before Durkon could resurrect him (see strip #649).
That was a construct, not undead.

[AvatarVecna]

Without knowing what spells Durkula has prepared, it's hard to say how the fight would swing. If he prepared spells with the intention of being ready to throw down with multiple high-level characters (including another caster) and had the element of surprise, he could easily trounce them. If he's prepared spells that are useless for that, the best those spells will do for him in a fight is get spontaneously converted into Inflicts (whether for hurting others or healing himself).

Taking a guess at his general odds, though...well, let's put it this way: we have a vampire cleric (who's spell loadout is unknown) going up against 3 individuals who likely have a great deal of experience working together (Wrecan, Veldrina, and Whiskers) and Roy. Veldrina is at least a Favored Soul 14, and is probably a lot more capable than her ditziness would suggest (given that she was chosen for this mission). Wrecan is likely a high-level mundane, given that he's her assigned bodyguard; he might be a Ranger, a Paladin, a Fighter, or something from ToB. Finally, we have Roy; ignoring whatever his defenses might be and how they'd fair against Durkula's offense, he's already in close combat range and can very quickly be wielding his ancestral, trained-with-it-forever, starmetal, undead-bane super-Greatsword; if Durkula doesn't take him down quickly or find a way to completely no-sell Roy's damage, this fight is over before it begins.

Sure, it would take Roy on his own maybe 3-5 rounds of full attacking Durkula to take him down...but Roy's got help. Too much help, I would think, for Durkula to win a straight-up fight. His only chance of taking down everybody in the room would be to do so very subtly.

[Lombard]

Anyways, I'd say Durkon wins this hypothetical encounter if and only if he gets Roy alone and is able to Dominate him on the first try. Otherwise Power Attack with a +5 undead-bane greatsword laughs at his DR and fast healing and each Harm he has prepared will cover at most two full attacks of such. Which could still work out to a Durkula victory if he was only fighting Roy, but he wouldn't be.

For real.. I'm not sure HPoH would even be guaranteed to survive one full round against Roy if the dice were rolling high, and the 2nd round would almost certainly run him out of HP.

[Gnoman]

Destroying an undead before Resurrecting it is only necessary if you're using a piece of it (or a piece of the corpse from before it rose). If the undead itself is on hand you just have to touch it after casting the spell. You can find that rule in the undead type traits.


From the SRD


Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. (If this reduction would bring its Con to 0 or lower, it can’t be resurrected). This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected.

Material Component
A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.


Undead Type
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Features
An undead creature has the following features.

12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ½ total Hit Dice (as wizard).
Good Will saves.
Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


The Undead type says nothing of the sort, and Ressurection specifically states destruction of the undead as a requirement.

[ylvathrall]

I would agree that Darkon was either being overconfident, or else just making a statement of fact that killing everyone was his only option regardless of whether it was possible or not. Even if he could win the fight, it would be foolish verging on insane to assume that he could. There are too many unknowns involved for that. Veldrina is certainly at least 14th level to cast 7th level spells, but might be much higher given that she's apparently comparable to a High Priest in authority. She also apparently has a scholarly interest in the undead, which makes it very plausible that she knows applicable spells. Wrecan is even more of an unknown factor; we really have no evidence at all for what his abilities might be.

And then there's Whiskers, who is a tiger, but also so adorable that I'm really hoping there's something more going on there. An Awakened tiger with cleric levels acting as the divine Tiger's representative, maybe? That's not likely, but under the circumstances it's not implausible that something equally strange is going on. And, again, neither we nor Darkon can be sure what that something is. Given that there are so many variables involved, it would be premature for Darkon to say that he could take these three in a fight, particularly with Roy standing right next to him.

[The Pilgrim]

Veldrina is at least 14th level. Maybe 15th. I don't think the Giant would make her higher level than that, we already know how many problems a powerful spellcaster can raise from a storytelling point of view.

Wrecam may be a cohort, meaning he is at least two levels behind her. Or may be just a teammate which more or less her same level. If I had to pick a class, I bet for a single class fighter.

The Tiger is probably Veldrina's planar cohort.

Anyway, if Miko could defeat the entire OOTS on her own, twice, I bet Durkula can take Roy and two lower-level NPCs.

In that hypotetical combat, Roy would be his main concern and primary target, sure. After Roy is dealt with, the others just don't stand a chance. Durkula might, for example, use his surprise round to summon a monster to keep the NPC's busy, and then, well... high level spellcaster vs high level melee... no contest.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Without knowing what spells Durkula has prepared, it's hard to say how the fight would swing. If he prepared spells with the intention of being ready to throw down with multiple high-level characters (including another caster) and had the element of surprise, he could easily trounce them. If he's prepared spells that are useless for that, the best those spells will do for him in a fight is get spontaneously converted into Inflicts (whether for hurting others or healing himself).

Taking a guess at his general odds, though...well, let's put it this way: we have a vampire cleric (who's spell loadout is unknown) going up against 3 individuals who likely have a great deal of experience working together (Wrecan, Veldrina, and Whiskers) and Roy. Veldrina is at least a Favored Soul 14, and is probably a lot more capable than her ditziness would suggest (given that she was chosen for this mission). Wrecan is likely a high-level mundane, given that he's her assigned bodyguard; he might be a Ranger, a Paladin, a Fighter, or something from ToB. Finally, we have Roy; ignoring whatever his defenses might be and how they'd fair against Durkula's offense, he's already in close combat range and can very quickly be wielding his ancestral, trained-with-it-forever, starmetal, undead-bane super-Greatsword; if Durkula doesn't take him down quickly or find a way to completely no-sell Roy's damage, this fight is over before it begins.

Sure, it would take Roy on his own maybe 3-5 rounds of full attacking Durkula to take him down...but Roy's got help. Too much help, I would think, for Durkula to win a straight-up fight. His only chance of taking down everybody in the room would be to do so very subtly.

which spells could Durkula prepare?


And remember Miko was MUCH higher level, and there was only a single caster she was dealing with.

[goodpeople25]

which spells could Durkula prepare?


And remember Miko was MUCH higher level, and there was only a single caster she was dealing with.
Miko wasn't a primary spell caster though and Miko also had more targets to deal with.

[dancrilis]

which spells could Durkula prepare?
Durkon might have 8th level spells, so an earthquake wins this in one round if the building collapses (he can escape in gaseous form).

[Douglas]

Durkon might have 8th level spells, so an earthquake wins this in one round if the building collapses (he can escape in gaseous form).
A mere collapsed building is not going to kill a group of level ~15 characters. That tactic would be useful for escaping, not for killing them to maintain the charade.

Though if he did kill them, he'd have to get creative about how to explain it to the rest of the Order, especially with regard to a justification for Roy staying dead (since "Durkon" himself is on hand to raise Roy).

[AvatarVecna]

which spells could Durkula prepare?

What spells could a Cleric 14 prepare that could let them take down 3 unprepared equal level combatants and an animal? How would I do it, if I knew a fight might be coming?

Round 0 (surprise round): Ravenous Darkness (damages the living, gives the undead fast healing)
Round 1: Insect Plague (because swarms are so much fun!)
Round 2: Summon Monster VII (Bone Devils make fun combatants)
Round 3: Greater Consumptive Field, Quickened Sanctuary
Round 4+: Buff/Heal self until a swarm is killed (setting your caster level to 21). Then, Blasphemy (dazing, weakening, and paralyzing all 4...well, not paralyzing the elf).
Round Blasphemy+: Mop up easily.

A lvl 14 T1 caster who's prepared themselves to fight a lvl 14 T2 caster, a lvl 14 T4 martial, a different lvl 14 non-caster, and a tiger who aren't expecting or prepared for such a fight is going to mop the floor with the unprepared group, especially if they're evil enough and/or clever enough to pull out their big guns.

[dmaxno]

I think that dominating Roy would be the best bet. First, Roy thinks the HPoH is Durkon, and trusts him - possibly a +2 circumstance bonus to dominate. Second, Roy is still a fighter, so I think his save is only 4-5 better than Belkar's. On the other hand, if he is too-straight forward at attacking, he may give Roy an extra saving throw before Roy attacks anyone. Still, HPoH has shown plenty skill at manipulating Roy already, he might be able to come up with an approach that gives him a good chance of dominating Roy.

Unless the HPoH has bad luck on dominating Roy on the surprise round, I think he could win. I expect that Roy could hold Wrecan and the tiger at bay while he takes on Veldrina. I expect she can put up a fight, but I still think HPoH is higher level and would defeat her. Afterwards the tiger and Wrecan. Finally, tell dominated Roy how well he's done, tell him to put down his sword and sit down for healing and cast slay living on an already worn-down Roy.

A couple other thoughts
I don't think HPoH would summon any creatures. Dismissal is a 4th-level cleric spell and Veldrina doesn't need to prepare spells. If she's learning 7th level spells already, I expect she'd be able to dismiss any creatures the HPoH could summon.
Though I doubt it, if HPoH had taken the Still spell feat, he could try to grapple Veldrina (with his vampire strength bonus) and use still spell to cast various inflict wounds. Yes, I am assuming Roy keeps Wrecan and the tiger at bay, but it would be a pretty quick way to take out Veldrina (unless Veldrina also has the feat).
About the resurrection, didn't vampirisation in OOTS also count as a type of soul trap? I don't remember where I saw that. If Durkon' soul is trapped, then he cannot be resurrected even if they tried. However, the attempt may give too much information to Veldrina and likely raise Roy's suspicions too. Even if the resurrection won't hurt him, it would already spoil HPoH's plans.
About explaining a dead Roy to the order: HPoH could say that they were attacked by other just because he is a vampire and that he didn't preparre raise dead that day.

[goodpeople25]

What spells could a Cleric 14 prepare that could let them take down 3 unprepared equal level combatants and an animal? How would I do it, if I knew a fight might be coming?

Round 0 (surprise round): Ravenous Darkness (damages the living, gives the undead fast healing)
Round 1: Insect Plague (because swarms are so much fun!)
Round 2: Summon Monster VII (Bone Devils make fun combatants)
Round 3: Greater Consumptive Field, Quickened Sanctuary
Round 4+: Buff/Heal self until a swarm is killed (setting your caster level to 21). Then, Blasphemy (dazing, weakening, and paralyzing all 4...well, not paralyzing the elf).
Round Blasphemy+: Mop up easily.

A lvl 14 T1 caster who's prepared themselves to fight a lvl 14 T2 caster, a lvl 14 T4 martial, a different lvl 14 non-caster, and a tiger who aren't expecting or prepared for such a fight is going to mop the floor with the unprepared group, especially if they're evil enough and/or clever enough to pull out their big guns.
How many of those spells are core? Cause i think clerics are limited to core in the stickverse, unless they look it up themselves.
Also i doubt durkla has prepared to fight a:at least 14 level spontaneous divine caster, roy, and whatever Wrecan is, for all we know he might be more than just a fighter. And a tiger.

[Sermil]

It's also possible that HPoH's optimism is due to something we don't know much about -- Malack's staff.

Remember, Malack has been filling that staff with "many obscure spells" that he found over the years. It's entirely possible the staff contains some last-ditch supernova -- for instance, a Retributive Strike-style kaboom. If the staff had enough charges, that would be guaranteed to kill even Roy, and HPoH would just be forced into gaseous form. (It's possible that he's managed to create a proper coffin in the Mechane during the trip.) Or it could rip open a big portal to the Negative Material Plane. Or it contain any number of other spells which would account for HPoH's optimism.

Remember, the last owner of the staff didn't have any deadly fights while still in possession of the staff, and HPoH hadn't yet had time to really examine the staff closely during the last big fight (with the Sand Elemental and then Tarquin's army). Now he has.

[AvatarVecna]

How many of those spells are core? Cause i think clerics are limited to core in the stickverse, unless they look it up themselves.
Also i doubt durkla has prepared to fight a:at least 14 level spontaneous divine caster, roy, and whatever Wrecan is, for all we know he might be more than just a fighter. And a tiger.

Honestly? All but two of them: Greater Consumptive Field is the CL booster that makes Blasphemy an auto-win button, and Ravenous Darkness is basically Deeper Darkness with a negative energy effect. Substitute in Deeper Darkness, and your enemies are still all fumbling in the dark. Sure, Blasphemy is no longer an auto-win spell directly, but if you spend the rounds prior to Blasphemy summoning up a bunch of demons, daemons, and devils, then when the Blasphemy goes off, the enemies have a turn where they aren't getting to act, and that can be fatal in group combat like that.

Of course, the odds that Durkula prepared his spells assuming that he might need to take out a room of high-level characters are...maybe 40% at the absolute highest, at least IMO. Considering what his goal was here (pretend to look for clerics powerful enough to raise him, hoping that none of them were still in town, because that would require him to kill them before they could raise him), it's entirely possible that he was prepared for something like that...but it's also possible that he prepared for something else entirely. Regardless: the only reason the two mundane-ish guys and the tiger are a threat is because they're already in close quarters with Durkula; beyond that, I'm not getting the feeling that miss Favored Soul is very combat-focused. That said, if Durkula can't lock down Roy somehow, this fight ends quickly...hence, why I would cast a powerful Darkness spell, start summoning demons, and wait for the right opportunity to cast Blasphemy.

But then, I'm not Durkula.

P.S.: As an alternative to the "end with Blasphemy" plan, you could just get the summons out of the way and then cast Ethereal Jaunt to leave the area without being harmed. Spend the next several rounds watching your demon/devil/whatever fight the group, and then end the EJ spell and start summoning more creatures when it looks like they're starting to finish the first one off.

[CowardlyPaladin]

What spells could a Cleric 14 prepare that could let them take down 3 unprepared equal level combatants and an animal? How would I do it, if I knew a fight might be coming?

Round 0 (surprise round): Ravenous Darkness (damages the living, gives the undead fast healing)
Round 1: Insect Plague (because swarms are so much fun!)
Round 2: Summon Monster VII (Bone Devils make fun combatants)
Round 3: Greater Consumptive Field, Quickened Sanctuary
Round 4+: Buff/Heal self until a swarm is killed (setting your caster level to 21). Then, Blasphemy (dazing, weakening, and paralyzing all 4...well, not paralyzing the elf).
Round Blasphemy+: Mop up easily.

A lvl 14 T1 caster who's prepared themselves to fight a lvl 14 T2 caster, a lvl 14 T4 martial, a different lvl 14 non-caster, and a tiger who aren't expecting or prepared for such a fight is going to mop the floor with the unprepared group, especially if they're evil enough and/or clever enough to pull out their big guns.

Hmmm, well the problem with this is, is that he needs to survive long enough to do these rounds. So surprise round, then gets hit by Roy, possibly a heal spell, what ever the other guy can do, and a tiger, and while the devils can be bad and scary, all Roy and Company need to do is focus on Durkeon to get them to go away. As for consumption field, will any of them be reduced to low enough hit points for this to make a difference, woudln't healing do better for him?

[AvatarVecna]

I think that dominating Roy would be the best bet. First, Roy thinks the HPoH is Durkon, and trusts him - possibly a +2 circumstance bonus to dominate. Second, Roy is still a fighter, so I think his save is only 4-5 better than Belkar's. On the other hand, if he is too-straight forward at attacking, he may give Roy an extra saving throw before Roy attacks anyone. Still, HPoH has shown plenty skill at manipulating Roy already, he might be able to come up with an approach that gives him a good chance of dominating Roy.

Unless the HPoH has bad luck on dominating Roy on the surprise round, I think he could win. I expect that Roy could hold Wrecan and the tiger at bay while he takes on Veldrina. I expect she can put up a fight, but I still think HPoH is higher level and would defeat her. Afterwards the tiger and Wrecan. Finally, tell dominated Roy how well he's done, tell him to put down his sword and sit down for healing and cast slay living on an already worn-down Roy.

Looks like a fairly solid plan, although it's not as foolproof as I'd prefer (watching from a distance as tons of summoned demons/devils/whatever tear the place apart), but it's solid. A lot of it depends on whether Wrecan and the tiger are tougher than they seem, but whatever.


A couple other thoughts
I don't think HPoH would summon any creatures. Dismissal is a 4th-level cleric spell and Veldrina doesn't need to prepare spells. If she's learning 7th level spells already, I expect she'd be able to dismiss any creatures the HPoH could summon.
Though I doubt it, if HPoH had taken the Still spell feat, he could try to grapple Veldrina (with his vampire strength bonus) and use still spell to cast various inflict wounds. Yes, I am assuming Roy keeps Wrecan and the tiger at bay, but it would be a pretty quick way to take out Veldrina (unless Veldrina also has the feat).
About the resurrection, didn't vampirisation in OOTS also count as a type of soul trap? I don't remember where I saw that. If Durkon' soul is trapped, then he cannot be resurrected even if they tried. However, the attempt may give too much information to Veldrina and likely raise Roy's suspicions too. Even if the resurrection won't hurt him, it would already spoil HPoH's plans.
About explaining a dead Roy to the order: HPoH could say that they were attacked by other just because he is a vampire and that he didn't prepare raise dead that day.

1. Dismissal is a Cleric spell, yes, but is it one Veldrina has had a lot of call for? She only gets so many spells known as a Favored Soul; is she really going to spend one on sending away demons? She seems more like the kind to want to study them or something. Regardless, even on the off-chance that she has it, she has to spend her action getting rid of a single summoned creature, and Durkula can choose to summon multiple creatures of lower power to offset that little trick.

2. Inflict Wounds? Why would a vampire who can deal 1d4 Con damage per round in a pin bother wasting spells to kill someone?

3. The attempt would give them information like that...if Veldrina was capable of casting the spell. Which she's not.

4. That doesn't solve the "well, prepare it tonight, cast it tomorrow" rebuttal, which must eventually be solved through bloodshed. To paraphrase a different webcomic:
"Gorb, this is turning into one of those plans...you know, the kind where we kill everybody that notices that were killing people?"

"It is?"

"Uh huh. And how do those always end?"

"The dirigible is in flames, everbody's dead, and I've lost my hat."

"That's right. And any plan where you lose your hat is?"

"A bad plan?"

"Right again!"


Hmmm, well the problem with this is, is that he needs to survive long enough to do these rounds. So surprise round, then gets hit by Roy, possibly a heal spell, what ever the other guy can do, and a tiger, and while the devils can be bad and scary, all Roy and Company need to do is focus on Durkeon to get them to go away. As for consumption field, will any of them be reduced to low enough hit points for this to make a difference, woudln't healing do better for him?

Not quite: in the surprise round, he covers the room in darkness, moves away with some stealth-buffing vampire ability, gets hit by nothing (no attacks, no tiger, no Heal spell that we don't even know if Veldrina has or not), summons the swarms, summons the Bone Devil, casts GCF and Quickened Sanctuary, and waits for them to kill the swarms so that he can dart in, drain them, and get tons of kills for GCF. Then he casts Blasphemy at CL 21 and paralyzes/weakens/dazes them while they're in close combat with a Bone Devil and a vampire cleric. That right there is checkmate. As has been pointed out, however, that plan uses two non-Core spells, and really depends on one of them. Now, Durkon could try to buff himself up enough to take them all on...or he can quickly move away (via Word of Recall, gaseous form, flight, or some movement method) and summon tons of creatures from afar. It would certainly turn everything into quite a spectacle, but it's one of those plans that requires him to end up killing everyone.

Once again, the exact way to determine how this fight plays out depends on four unknown factors becoming known: what, mechanically speaking, is Wrecan capable of? What about the Tiger? What spells does Veldrina know? What spells does Durkula have prepared.

[The Pilgrim]

What spells does Durkula have prepared.

Well, since looking for a Cleric who could resurrect Durkon, was Durkula's idea in the first place... you can bet he prepared himself in advance for the eventuality that the plan actually succeeded.

Whatever Durkon prepared as spells last dusk, he tailored them exactly to kill, at least, Roy, a high level cleric of at least lvl 14th, and probably some lower lever clerics too, all in one go.

[dancrilis]

A mere collapsed building is not going to kill a group of level ~15 characters. That tactic would be useful for escaping, not for killing them to maintain the charade.

Not sure about that.

Pinned beneath Rubble

Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.

There is no mention of how to dig yourself out - and if Durkon is concerned about that he can unleash some area affect spells on them while they try.

It would be somewhat cheap and I doubt the giant would write it like that - but it seems to be fine rules wise.

[Kornaki]

It wouldn't be the first time a vampire cleric overestimated his ability to kill his temporary "allies."

Someone turn on the sprinklers, just Malack just got burned.

[Kantaki]

The question is not if Durkula could take them, but what he does afterwards. I can't see the Order believing or trusting any story that he could come up with so he would lose Access to the airship. Winning or having to flee makes little difference in the latter case his enemies just follow him faster. It might actually be an Advantage to leave Roy, Veldrina, Wrecan and little Whiskers injured and buried under the collapsed inn to force the order to spend some time recovering.

[Kornaki]

The question is not if Durkula could take them, but what he does afterwards. I can't see the Order believing or trusting any story that he could come up with so he would lose Access to the airship. Winning or having to flee makes little difference in the latter case his enemies just follow him faster. It might actually be an Advantage to leave Roy, Veldrina, Wrecan and little Whiskers injured and buried under the collapsed inn to force the order to spend some time recovering.

Because if he kills Roy and flees, the Order will certainly give a token effort if that to raising Roy. The story will just progress unhindered as they track down and slay Durkula with ease.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think what this tells us is:

Durk Malackssen is aggressive and confident. Possibly overconfident.

[Porthos]

When talking about what the HPoH could do, I think it is a safe bet to remember that no one in the Stickverse uses "optimized" tactics. Well, almost no one. :smallwink: So when figuring out a mooted battleplan, take that into consideration when trying to guess how it would play out.

The main thing the HPoH has going for him is that Roy probably won't be fighting at full strength for the first couple of rounds as Roy tries to mentally process being "betrayed". How quickly Roy pivots into "this thing needs killing" mode might make all the difference in the world.

[AvatarVecna]

When talking about what the HPoH could do, I think it is a safe bet to remember that no one in the Stickverse uses "optimized" tactics. Well, almost no one. :smallwink: So when figuring out a mooted battleplan, take that into consideration when trying to guess how it would play out.

The main thing the HPoH has going for him is that Roy probably won't be fighting at full strength for the first couple of rounds as Roy tries to mentally process being "betrayed". How quickly Roy pivots into "this thing needs killing" mode might make all the difference in the world.

Well, yeah, this kind of goes without saying. I have no doubt that Rich will probably do something much more interesting than "kill everyone in the room", and even if he chooses to do so, I doubt it will result in a crushing victory for the HPoH. I was merely saying how it could be done (and how I would do it). I'm sure that, even with Durkon's relatively low optimization, he could wipe the floor with this group in over a dozen different ways if he was prepared properly to fight them

[JCAll]

One problem is there's no way Durkon's prepared spells are optimized for an all out fight. He has to still keep up the appearance of being Durkon, and the worst thing he could do is get in a situation where he has to admit that he can't cast an important spell because he prepared an incredibly evil spell instead. Not to mention he still has to be the party healbot, and probably has half his slots filled with useless Cure spells.

[Kantaki]

One problem is there's no way Durkon's prepared spells are optimized for an all out fight. He has to still keep up the appearance of being Durkon, and the worst thing he could do is get in a situation where he has to admit that he can't cast an important spell because he prepared an incredibly evil spell instead. Not to mention he still has to be the party healbot, and probably has half his slots filled with useless Cure spells.

I'm no expert but I thougt evil clerics can conver their spells to harm their foes, just like good clerics could heal their friends. Having healing spells prepared would be less of an drawback in that case.

[factotum]

Yes, they can do that, and in any case, saying "Sorry, didn't think we'd need that so I didn't prepare it" is an entirely believable excuse. After all, do you imagine Haley and Elan thought they'd be fighting a flesh golem when *they* got up this morning? If they'd had to prepare spells in advance, there's no way they could have selected the right ones.

[Douglas]

I'm no expert but I thougt evil clerics can conver their spells to harm their foes, just like good clerics could heal their friends. Having healing spells prepared would be less of an drawback in that case.
They can, but the amount of damage produced by those spells would be nowhere near enough to kill three equal-level enemies before they kill him.

[Demidos]

My likely, core only battleplan --

Important: Vampire Durkon is high level, and can prep backup.
Vampire Durkon that morning did a planar ally to summon spiky if he was in need. Against even levelled foes, that is definitely a reasonable precaution.

Vampire Durkon sees this going south and subtly calls for his children of the night while the conversation is going. 1d6+1 rat swarms at this level are fairly negligible...unless you stack 7 dc 12 fort saves vs nauseation on the fragile looking caster (alternately, you can summon wolves to hold off the melee for a round).

Surprise Round/Round 1: Use Blasphemy. Call in Spiky/other minions, and have it hold off Roy/the caster. Grapple the elf, and threaten to kill her unless Wrecan stands down.

This assumes all three somehow resist the effect. It is likely that the melee will not, as they are likely even levelled or lower with Durkon, so his offensive can be concentrated on those who escaped. The elf is an unknown. Wrecan would be notably strength drained, as would Roy if he is a lower level than Durkon. That alone could swing the fight in Durkon's favor. The tiger would ideally be incapacitated or banished.


Round 2+: Repeat blasphemy as needed, trying to get the melee to Durkon's side (via dominate), while maintaining the grapple and nauseation effects to lock down the caster. If running out of blasphemies (probably only 1-2 prepared), use domination, darkness, or WALL spells (e.g. Wall of stone/force/w.e.) to keep the battlefield under control.


Total result:
Spells/abilities: Planar Ally, Dominate, Blasphemy, Darkness? (all established tactics) Children of the night, walls (low level spells or vampire abilities).

Not very optimized, but also fairly effective, at least on paper. With enough swarms, a natural 1 becomes a possibility for one or another of the melee as well, which would take them out of the fight for long enough for Durkon to finish off the other one.
If evil Durkon feels like he can bluff Roy into helping, he can shout out that these aren't actually good clerics, but the high cleric of Hel (amusing plot twist), which might hold Roy off for a round, also causing a huge swing in the battle (negative levels and the accompanying spell loss is nothing to scoff at).

[Wardog]

Would Durkula's Vampiric Domination work on the tiger?

If so, his opening gambit could be to attempt to dominate the tiger and make it attack Roy. This could have several possible consequences, most of them beneficial to Durkula even if the spell fails:

Scenario 1: Domination works.
Tiger attacks Roy, forcing him to disable or kill it. (Or giving Durkula an excuse to kill the tiger to protect Roy).
May result in Veldrina and Wrecan attacking Roy and Durkula, or at least cause them to refuse to cooperate.

Scenario 2: Domination fails.
Tiger knows it failed a save, treats this as a hostile act, and attacks Durkula.
May result in a general fight breaking out, and if Durkula kills tiger in self defence, the results may be the same as if Roy killed it.

Once a general fight breaks out, Durkula can attempt to kill Veldrina and Wrecan, but sub-optimally, so Roy will take more damage in the process. Once only one other person is left, Durkula can then unleash his full power to finish them.

And even if this plan doesn't provoke Veldrina and Wrecan into turning hostile or refusing to cooperate, it means one potential enemy has been eliminated (albeit the least dangerous), so the odds will be slightly more in Durkula's favour when he decided to implement the next stage of his plan.

[Xihirli]

Miko once managed to defeat the entire Order of the Stick because Durkon didn't heal them until after the fight. Durkula will be able to heal himself as the fight goes on; Roy was planning on buying potions at the temples but I suspect that he hasn't gotten any (on account of bringing a vampire to them).

[dtilque]

Miko once managed to defeat the entire Order of the Stick because Durkon didn't heal them until after the fight. Durkula will be able to heal himself as the fight goes on; Roy was planning on buying potions at the temples but I suspect that he hasn't gotten any (on account of bringing a vampire to them).

I would hope that Roy brought some potions from the Mechane. After all, they had several crates of healing potions on it.

As far as Blasphemy, the effects are based on how many HD the opponents have vs the caster's level. Someone upthread indicated that Durkula would cast at his ECL, but is that actually the case? The SRD says nothing about a vampire cleric's caster level changing.

Based on the Geekery thread, Roy is one level higher than Durkula, so Blaspheny shouldn't affect him at all.

[ylvathrall]

I just want to point out how amusing it is that so many people are assuming that everyone in the room is what they seem to be and what they say about themselves is accurate, when the whole point of the scene is that Durkula isn't what he claims to be and he can't let anyone learn the truth. Any battle plan which assumes that Veldrina is a ditz, Wrecan is a purely martial character, and the tiger is a tiger is a hasty plan. The only grounds for any of these claims is that they haven't explicitly been shown to be false. I'm not saying that any of them are necessarily false, but there's no clear evidence yet that they're true.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well, yeah, this kind of goes without saying. I have no doubt that Rich will probably do something much more interesting than "kill everyone in the room", and even if he chooses to do so, I doubt it will result in a crushing victory for the HPoH. I was merely saying how it could be done (and how I would do it). I'm sure that, even with Durkon's relatively low optimization, he could wipe the floor with this group in over a dozen different ways if he was prepared properly to fight them

Lets bear in mind that the premis here is not escaping but killing everybody, so I am not so sure about your plan, which is predicated on escaping.

[AvatarVecna]

Lets bear in mind that the premis here is not escaping but killing everybody, so I am not so sure about your plan, which is predicated on escaping.

Nah, my plan is about killing everybody in the room; the fact that I leave the room to kill them from a distance is just to minimize the chance of getting killed myself. Not being trapped in a room with 3 roughly equal level combatants when at least one of them and probably 2 of them are melee specialist is the first step to tearing them apart with my summoned creatures, killing them, then draining all their blood and turning them into Vampires as well.

[dancrilis]

Based on the Geekery thread, Roy is one level higher than Durkula, so Blaspheny shouldn't affect him at all.

I don't really buy into the Geekery trend for determining contests in this manner ... but if I did I would point out that Holy Word affected Belkar as a equal who is listed as 2 levels higher than Durkon and as such for the purpose of Blasphemy Roy would be a lower level character.

[Emanick]

I don't really buy into the Geekery trend for determining contests in this manner ... but if I did I would point out that Holy Word affected Belkar as a equal who is listed as 2 levels higher than Durkon and as such for the purpose of Blasphemy Roy would be a lower level character.

Holy Word treated Durkon as a higher-level character because of his domain (which he no longer has, since he no longer qualifies), and Belkar was only one level ahead of Durkon at the time. Holy Word as shown followed the rules to the letter, so we have no reason to believe that Rich house-rules its effects.

[Itrogash]

My likely, core only battleplan --

Important: Vampire Durkon is high level, and can prep backup.
Vampire Durkon that morning did a planar ally to summon spiky if he was in need. Against even levelled foes, that is definitely a reasonable precaution.

Vampire Durkon sees this going south and subtly calls for his children of the night while the conversation is going. 1d6+1 rat swarms at this level are fairly negligible...unless you stack 7 dc 12 fort saves vs nauseation on the fragile looking caster (alternately, you can summon wolves to hold off the melee for a round).

Surprise Round/Round 1: Use Blasphemy. Call in Spiky/other minions, and have it hold off Roy/the caster. Grapple the elf, and threaten to kill her unless Wrecan stands down.

This assumes all three somehow resist the effect. It is likely that the melee will not, as they are likely even levelled or lower with Durkon, so his offensive can be concentrated on those who escaped. The elf is an unknown. Wrecan would be notably strength drained, as would Roy if he is a lower level than Durkon. That alone could swing the fight in Durkon's favor. The tiger would ideally be incapacitated or banished.


Round 2+: Repeat blasphemy as needed, trying to get the melee to Durkon's side (via dominate), while maintaining the grapple and nauseation effects to lock down the caster. If running out of blasphemies (probably only 1-2 prepared), use domination, darkness, or WALL spells (e.g. Wall of stone/force/w.e.) to keep the battlefield under control.


Total result:
Spells/abilities: Planar Ally, Dominate, Blasphemy, Darkness? (all established tactics) Children of the night, walls (low level spells or vampire abilities).

Not very optimized, but also fairly effective, at least on paper. With enough swarms, a natural 1 becomes a possibility for one or another of the melee as well, which would take them out of the fight for long enough for Durkon to finish off the other one.
If evil Durkon feels like he can bluff Roy into helping, he can shout out that these aren't actually good clerics, but the high cleric of Hel (amusing plot twist), which might hold Roy off for a round, also causing a huge swing in the battle (negative levels and the accompanying spell loss is nothing to scoff at).
And how do you explain 100 rounds of casting time (10 minutes) Durkon needs to cast Planar Ally?

[dancrilis]

Vampire Durkon that morning did a planar ally to summon spiky if he was in need.

And how do you explain 100 rounds of casting time (10 minutes) Durkon needs to cast Planar Ally?

Ah ... he did it in the morning in his private time?

[Demidos]

Ah ... he did it in the morning in his private time?

Pretty much.

[King of Nowhere]

Not quite: in the surprise round, he covers the room in darkness, moves away with some stealth-buffing vampire ability, gets hit by nothing (no attacks, no tiger, no Heal spell that we don't even know if Veldrina has or not), summons the swarms, summons the Bone Devil, casts GCF and Quickened Sanctuary, and waits for them to kill the swarms so that he can dart in, drain them, and get tons of kills for GCF. Then he casts Blasphemy at CL 21 and paralyzes/weakens/dazes them while they're in close combat with a Bone Devil and a vampire cleric. That right there is checkmate. As has been pointed out, however, that plan uses two non-Core spells, and really depends on one of them. Now, Durkon could try to buff himself up enough to take them all on...or he can quickly move away (via Word of Recall, gaseous form, flight, or some movement method) and summon tons of creatures from afar. It would certainly turn everything into quite a spectacle, but it's one of those plans that requires him to end up killing everyone.

That's a possible outcome, but far from guaranteed. it would be a mistake to assume that just because the room is in darkness 3 high level characters would be disabled by that. some of them could have an item that activates just in those circumstances. roy or wrecan could make a listen check to locate durkula trying to leave, and grapple him so that he can't cast spells; tigers have good listen, the tiger could hear and attack durkula, and the resulting noise would draw the two fighters. veldrina could dispel the darkness, then roy and wrecan could run after durkula - and they have higher movement speed. wrecan could be suspicious, he may have an action prepared to attack durkon if he tries to cast a spell without warning, making the spell fizzle.
Or, when the room is cloacked in darkness, and durkula goes out to cast more spells, they could just open the door and leave, leaving durkula to waste all of his best spells on an empty room where he only assumes his enemies are.
also i don't know where that CL 21 comes from. Does that nooncore spell buffs his caster level so much? because i'm fairly sure being a vampire did not improve it.

All things considered, it's still a significant risk.

[dancrilis]

I think the plan is surprise round darkness (and move - remember vampires are sneaky +8 racial bonus to Move Silently), actual round summon swarms preprepared planar ally moves in, greater consumptive field will boost the caster level by up to half Durkon's level (call it 14 for a total of 21) providing things die in it such as the summoned monsters.
Assuming that the summoned monsters die due to the field to bring up the CL, Blasphemy becomes an automatic win.

That assumes that Durkon initiates things himself - if he has a bone devil via planer ally he may call it telepathically to attack, summon up some wolves to attack it, use greater consumptive field to kill the wolves, and activate Blasphemy without ever appearing to turn on the team at all until they are paralysed - and kill them at his leisure.

The most significant draw back of this is ... both Roy's new friends might be evil as far as Durkon knows (or us for that matter - though I find it unlikely) and so Blasphemy becomes meaningless to them, but Roy is still toast from it.

[AvatarVecna]

That's a possible outcome, but far from guaranteed. it would be a mistake to assume that just because the room is in darkness 3 high level characters would be disabled by that. some of them could have an item that activates just in those circumstances. roy or wrecan could make a listen check to locate durkula trying to leave, and grapple him so that he can't cast spells; tigers have good listen, the tiger could hear and attack durkula, and the resulting noise would draw the two fighters. veldrina could dispel the darkness, then roy and wrecan could run after durkula - and they have higher movement speed. wrecan could be suspicious, he may have an action prepared to attack durkon if he tries to cast a spell without warning, making the spell fizzle.
Or, when the room is cloacked in darkness, and durkula goes out to cast more spells, they could just open the door and leave, leaving durkula to waste all of his best spells on an empty room where he only assumes his enemies are.
also i don't know where that CL 21 comes from. Does that nooncore spell buffs his caster level so much? because i'm fairly sure being a vampire did not improve it.

All things considered, it's still a significant risk.

Firstly, Durkula is the only one we know can see in the dark; even the tiger and the elf can only be assumed to have low-light vision. With nothing to go on but their listen checks until they can cast spells to see in the dark, Durkula is free to make a Move Silently check; that makes the DC to hear him average somewhere around 14, assuming his post-vamping Dex is 12 (a distinct possibility, according to the C&G thread). And that's just the DC to hear him; to actually target the correct square when you can't see him (due to the room being covered in darkness), you have to either beat the DC by 20 (if epic skill uses are in place) or have the right feat; if you don't have the feat and aren't using those rules, you're stuck swinging completely blind. Wrecan might have the feat, and might have a high enough Listen to pinpoint him, but the tiger doesn't unless it's a lot more powerful than we have reason to believe, the C&G thread has no reason to believe that Roy's Listen skill is high enough or that he has items to make up for that, and Listen is a cross-class skill for Favored Souls, so Veldrina isn't gonna be much help there either until she can see in the dark (assuming she knows a spell that can do that).

Oh yeah, and none of that matters at all if he teleports out with Word of Recall. It also doesn't matter if he goes into gaseous form, as vampires can.

Secondly, it's doubtful that Wrecan will disrupt Durkula's spell: even if he's suspicious enough to be readying attacks, that only gives him a standard action, and that's not enough to draw his weapon and attack, much less move over to where Durkula is and attack him; even if he had his weapon drawn and was right next to Durkula, it's more likely that any readied action he's taken will be more along the lines of "protect Veldrina", on account of him being her bodyguard and what not. And even if he's got that action readied now, HPoH has shown themselves to be pretty sneaky so far. If they decide it's time to kill them all, he'll find a way to cast the spell where they'll allow him to finish the spell.

Thirdly, only an idiot casts spells when they can't be sure of getting the right response. Durkon's not blasting the house with fireballs, he's summoning monsters to attack his enemies; it's not like, if they leave the house, the summoned creatures will just stand around staring at the wall.

Fourthly, that non-core spell (Greater Consumptive Field) explicitly boosts his CL that much, if he's nearby enough when the swarm bites the bullet (not hard to be close, when you consider that he has things like Ethereal Jaunt potentially available). In fact, if Durkula had this nifty little feat called "Reserves of Strength", it's arguable that he could boost his CL into the thousands, which would be more than enough to kill just about anything in the setting via Blasphemy (fortunately or unfortunately, he does not have this feat).

Fifthly, I'm gonna say this again: a cleric who has prepared his daily spells specifically for taking out multiple high-level characters just in case he needs to, who ends up needing to kill a roughly equal level fighter, favored soul, and unknown (as well as their pet tiger) is going to mop the floor with them unless the unknown is another caster focused around fighting other casters. Veldrina is a commoner with spellcasting; if the spells she knows aren't relevant to fighting (and this fight in particular), she'll be next to useless. Roy is only a threat because he's 1) specialized in wielding his +5 undead-bane greatsword, 2) standing right next to Durkula, and 3) in a small room with no quick-and-easy escape routes; changing any of these three facts (or turning Roy to his side through trickery and/or magic) makes Roy a non-threat. Wrecan is potentially dangerous if he's a caster or caster-killer, but we can't know one way or the other. The tiger is only dangerous if it's something more than just a tiger, which we can't know for sure yet.

Sixthly, I'm gonna say this again: this fight is never going to happen, and even if it does, it won't happen this way. I think this ending with Durkula trying to kill everyone would be boring, but I admit that the Giant could probably make it interesting...as long as Durkon didn't completely wipe the floor with them. From a story POV, Durkula will never win this fight this soundly; from a game-mechanics POV, however, he would trounce them all, as long as he prepared his spells with high-level combat in mind.

[JCAll]

I think the plan is surprise round darkness (and move - remember vampires are sneaky +8 racial bonus to Move Silently)

Is Durkon's armor penalty still dropping his move silently check into the toilet, or did he get that fixed?

[AvatarVecna]

Is Durkon's armor penalty still dropping his move silently check into the toilet, or did he get that fixed?

I accounted for that penalty in my big post (which is why his average Move Silently check is 14, not 20), but that doesn't change the fact that pinpointing his location requires either a rarely-taken feat, the right spell (that they likely can't cast), or super-optimized Listen (which is less than likely for multiple reasons).

[Hecuba]

There are some unknowns:

Is Veldrina's spell selection food for fighting another caster and/or an undead?
What class, exactly is Wrecan?
What spells did Durkon prepare?


Taken on the whole however, the best answer is likely "Probably, if he considered it when preparing his spells last dusk."

[CowardlyPaladin]

I don't object to your battleplan or even your proposal that Durkon could win, I object to the idea that DUrkno would willingly leave the casters alone for even a second, because that risks the rest of OOTS getting involved. V in partiular could be dangerous, but Elan and Haley in addition to the rest could make things....dangerous.

[Sith_Happens]

The Undead type says nothing of the sort, and Ressurection specifically states destruction of the undead as a requirement.

The line of importance is the "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead" one. Which not only doesn't say anything about having to destroy it first, Never mind, doesn't get around Resurrection's target line of "Dead creature touched."

Nothing to see here, carry on.


What spells could a Cleric 14 prepare that could let them take down 3 unprepared equal level combatants and an animal? How would I do it, if I knew a fight might be coming?

Round 0 (surprise round): Ravenous Darkness (damages the living, gives the undead fast healing)
Round 1: Insect Plague (because swarms are so much fun!)
Round 2: Summon Monster VII (Bone Devils make fun combatants)
Round 3: Greater Consumptive Field, Quickened Sanctuary
Round 4+: Buff/Heal self until a swarm is killed (setting your caster level to 21). Then, Blasphemy (dazing, weakening, and paralyzing all 4...well, not paralyzing the elf).
Round Blasphemy+: Mop up easily.

The first few rounds of this plan are rather lacking in ways to not get attacked by Roy.


Not sure about that.

There is no mention of how to dig yourself out - and if Durkon is concerned about that he can unleash some area affect spells on them while they try.

It would be somewhat cheap and I doubt the giant would write it like that - but it seems to be fine rules wise.

Very next paragraph says that freeing yourself is a DC 25 Strength check.


Yes, they can do that, and in any case, saying "Sorry, didn't think we'd need that so I didn't prepare it" is an entirely believable excuse.

Especially for Durkula. I think Belkar said it best:

:belkar:: "He had a spell prepared that will actually solve our problem! That proves he can't possibly be Durkon!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)


Nah, my plan is about killing everybody in the room; the fact that I leave the room to kill them from a distance is just to minimize the chance of getting killed myself. Not being trapped in a room with 3 roughly equal level combatants when at least one of them and probably 2 of them are melee specialist is the first step to tearing them apart with my summoned creatures, killing them, then draining all their blood and turning them into Vampires as well.

Too slow, the last thing you want to do during a lethal cover-up is give the now-witnesses time to flee.

As an aside, Deeper Darkness only creates shadowy illumination, not total darkness. It's an extremely common mistake.

[dancrilis]

Very next paragraph says that freeing yourself is a DC 25 Strength check.

Really? Because I am not seeing it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm).

Even were it the case Roy having a strength of 30 (unlikely) leaves him four turns trapped underneath the rubble.

[factotum]

I object to the idea that DUrkno would willingly leave the casters alone for even a second, because that risks the rest of OOTS getting involved.

How does it risk that? Roy can't just raise his sword to his face, shout "OotS, Hoooooo!" and call them all to his side. As far as we're aware, the other members of the Order are some distance away, and with Sending having a ten-minute casting time I don't see any other obvious method for Veldrina to call them to help.

[AvatarVecna]

-snip-

Getting attacked by Roy? Even with it being Shadowy Illumination, that gives Durkula concealment; combined with his AC in the stratosphere and relatively high HP total, he may not avoid getting attacked by Roy, but he won't die in the first round, and after that he can just get right out of there. Or, you know, he could Word of Recall/Gaseous Form on the surprise round and get out of there before he proceeds to rain down unholy retribution on them. And time to flee? They're going to be a bit busy fighting a bone devil and several swarms; unless they're ready for something like that, they're boned. Roy can't exactly summon the other OOTS members with the snap of his fingers, so immediate backup is unlikely.

It all comes down to this:


There are some unknowns:

Is Veldrina's spell selection food for fighting another caster and/or an undead?
What class, exactly is Wrecan?
What spells did Durkon prepare?


Taken on the whole however, the best answer is likely "Probably, if he considered it when preparing his spells last dusk."

This thread asked a simple question: could it be done. The answer is yes. It requires that Durkula prepared for this kind of thing, was sneaky about starting the combat (so that he got Roy on his side at the beginning), that Wrecan is just a melee guy, that Veldrina isn't a caster-combat specialist, that the tiger isn't some sort of caster, and that the other OOTS members aren't nearby. As the only one of these things that's reasonably questionable is Wrecan being just another melee speedbump, it's a safe bet that Durkula could take them all on. I very much doubt that's how this is actually going to end, though.

[Gray Mage]

Really? Because I am not seeing it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm).

Even were it the case Roy having a strength of 30 (unlikely) leaves him four turns trapped underneath the rubble.

It's in the Cave-Ins And Collapses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#caveInsAndCollapsesCr8) section, last paragraph.

[dancrilis]

It's in the Cave-Ins And Collapses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#caveInsAndCollapsesCr8) section, last paragraph.

Thanks - still I notice the 'may' in the sentence, and presumedly even if it is used it will take a minute (as with digging someone else out, or taking damage etc), so best case scenario Roy succeeds first time (unlikely) and Durkon gets ten rounds to prepare (nine I suppose after he frees himself in mist form).

[Sith_Happens]

combined with his AC in the stratosphere and relatively high HP total

Au contraire:

1. Durkula's AC, before accounting for magic items, is

10 + 8 (full plate) + 1 (max DEX bonus) + 1 (light shield) + 6 (natural) = 26

Magic probably brings that up to the low 30's, or mid-30's if he splurged.

Roy's attack bonus, meanwhile, is at minimum

15 (BAB) + 7 (STR) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 5 (enhancement) + 2 (undead-bane) = 30

Which gives him room to Power Attack a bit and still have a high chance of hitting once and a decent chance of hitting twice, even after concealment.

2. As an undead (d12+0 per HD) with 14 HD, Durkula has 96-97 hit points given average rolls. Before Power Attack Roy would be hitting for

2d6 (greatsword) + 10 (1.5*STR) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) + 5 (enhancement) + 2 (undead-bane) + 2d6 (undead-bane) - 10 (DR) = 4d6 + 9 damage (average 23)

I'll need to get back to you on average damage per round at a few different Power Attack trade-offs, but my guesstimate is two to three rounds on average to mist Durkula, four at most.


he may not avoid getting attacked by Roy, but he won't die in the first round, and after that he can just get right out of there. Or, you know, he could Word of Recall/Gaseous Form on the surprise round and get out of there before he proceeds to rain down unholy retribution on them. And time to flee? They're going to be a bit busy fighting a bone devil and several swarms; unless they're ready for something like that, they're boned. Roy can't exactly summon the other OOTS members with the snap of his fingers, so immediate backup is unlikely.

Summon Monster is close range, anything Durkula wants to sick on Roy et al. after GTFOing would need to have been called and already awaiting orders. Anything he casts in the room after the surprise round (including to GTFO), meanwhile, he'd better be able to leave Roy's threatened area first or he's going to have a hefty (average DC 33 + spell level) Concentration check to make.

Personally I'd say his best bet if he's not going to try to dominate Roy and has the Evil domain is to open with Blasphemy in the surprise round. That would daze Roy for a round and presumably do at least that much to everyone else, giving Durkula time to put some distance between himself and Roy or try to stick a save-or-lose on him without fear of Mage Slayer.


It's in the Cave-Ins And Collapses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#caveInsAndCollapsesCr8) section, last paragraph.

Yeah, that's where I assumed you were reading from.

[King of Nowhere]

Firstly, Durkula is the only one we know can see in the dark; even the tiger and the elf can only be assumed to have low-light vision. With nothing to go on but their listen checks until they can cast spells to see in the dark, Durkula is free to make a Move Silently check; that makes the DC to hear him average somewhere around 14, assuming his post-vamping Dex is 12 (a distinct possibility, according to the C&G thread).
Oh yeah, and none of that matters at all if he teleports out with Word of Recall. It also doesn't matter if he goes into gaseous form, as vampires can.


In heavy armor, his move speed is 4.5 meters per round. if he uses move silently it is halved, at 2.25 meters. I really don't see him getting out of the room in the surprise round with that. And where would he go? out of the door? the opening of the door would certainly be heard and telll the others exactly where he went. then they would chase him. Out of the window? he would need to jump on the ground, then he would not be able to see into the room anymore, and that rules out many spells; furthermore, him landing would certainly be heard, and the fighters could follow. Also, even if the others cannot pinpoint him exactly, they can still listen roughly to his direction, and move towards him, since he moves so slowly they will bump into him eventually (maybe not exatly following the rules as written, but realistic enough that nobody would complain if it was done). Heck, the room is not that big, just running around with arms stretched has a good chance of finding him. at this point, just start a grapple. as far as we know, durkon doesn't have the still spell feat.
And if he uses word of recall, he will be teleported in a set location, not where he wants. he can escape, not continue the fight.
I have no idea what are the limitations of the gaseous form, in particular the ways it ccan be hurt, so I'm going to pass on this except to say that it would give the others time to act.

Really, i'm getting the idea that the plan relies on the others remaining in the room to fight summoned creatures. the smart thing is not to. the smart thing is to get out of the room through the door and lose themselves into the buildings. killl the summoned creatures (without the caster to support, it's not such a problem) then go back and find durkula. at this point it's no longer a clleric who prepared spells just for the encounter and has the advantage of surprise: it is a cleric who already spent the spells he intended to use in the fight and doesn't have the surprise anymore.
As for the CL-boosting spell, i'm fairly sure it is too broken to exist in oots.

Again, I'm not saying it would not work. it very well may. But i don't like to express certainties when there are so many ifs. Just for example, there is no mention whatsoever of what veldrina could do. you seem to assume she doesn't have any useful spell, or she will be disabled beefore she can use any. this is a very big if. I doubt she reached that level if she wasn't capable of fighting.



a cleric who has prepared his daily spells specifically for taking out multiple high-level characters just in case he needs to, who ends up needing to kill a roughly equal level fighter, favored soul, and unknown (as well as their pet tiger) is going to mop the floor with them unless the unknown is another caster focused around fighting other casters.

I am not an expert of D&D, but I am fairly sure something so generic cannot be correct. too many unknowns. it says nothing about the starting situation (i'm sure being locked in a room with two melees is a bad thing for the caster), it says nothing about the build of the non-casters (at least one of whom has an anti-caster build, with good saving throws and superior capability to disrupt spells), it says nothing about what spells veldrina may have, which buffs she cast on himself and/or wrecan in the morning, which itemms she has. The whole plan relies on a broken non-core spell that probably does not exist in oots and even if it exist there is no way durkon would know.

So IF durkon is allowed to know a broken non-core spell, and IF he can leave the room in one round with his low move speed, and IF he wins initiative in the first round after the surprise, at this point his blasphemy (7 caster levels over roy and veldrina) would blind and deafen them. Then IF veldrina cannot heal/dispel that and IF they don't manage to just run away in three different directions (meaning at least one of them is likely to warn the rest of the oots) (even blinded, they can run faster than durkula)... or, in case he first summon swarms, that would use a round and give the other people one round to act, while durkula cannot have moved more than 4.5 meters, so IF they fight the awarms instead of ganging up on him or going out of the room...
Too many ifs. sure, many of them, indnividually, are low probability, but enough low probabilities sum up and can evntually become a nig probability.
I just. don't. like. expressing certainty too easily.

having planar allies summoned beforehand would have better chances, but if i remember correctly, that has a fairly high xp cost, one is unlikely to sacrifice a few thousands of xp when he doesn't even know if it's needed. of course, in this case, it would be important enough to maybe justify such a precaution.

Maybe dominating roy and telling him to shut down veldrina's spellcasting would also work well. unarmored and with and elf's constitution, she would go down like wet paper in melee with roy. but alll of that relies on a single saving throw.

So, yes, there are many plans that may work, but the mephasis is always on may. too many variables, starting from the fact that we know next to nothing of what veldrina and wrecan can do.

[Gusion]

Summon Monster is close range, anything Durkula wants to sick on Roy et al. after GTFOing would need to have been called and already awaiting orders. Anything he casts in the room after the surprise round (including to GTFO), meanwhile, he'd better be able to leave Roy's threatened area first or he's going to have a hefty (average DC 33 + spell level) Concentration check to make.

Personally I'd say his best bet if he's not going to try to dominate Roy and has the Evil domain is to open with Blasphemy in the surprise round. That would daze Roy for a round and presumably do at least that much to everyone else, giving Durkula time to put some distance between himself and Roy or try to stick a save-or-lose on him without fear of Mage Slayer.

You're taking into account that summon monster is a full round casting action, right? I can't see him casting it here - it would almost certainly be disrupted - his concentration skill can't be *that* high.

Personally I find it doubtful that Wrecan would be surprised, although of course initiative is always a toss up...

[AvatarVecna]

Gaseous Form at will with perfect maneuverability fly speed 20ft as a Supernatural ability says pants to your "he can't get out of there" arguments. Durkula can summon swarms with his vampire abilities as well, so he doesn't even need spells for that part. And finally, yes, there's a lot of variables, which is why this is even a question. If Wrecan is a caster, Durkula's probably boned (since Wrecan will likely be combat-focused); if Veldrina is combat-focused, Durkula's boned. If the tiger is some sort of caster, Durkula's boned. If Durkula didn't prepare his spells for the day with the intention of being ready to take down several equal-level casters, Durkula's boned.

But some of those things are fairly likely to be going his way...while others are almost certainly not.

...also, if he uses Word of Recall in the surprise round to escape the situation in the first place, he can come back to take down the group on his own terms, rather than remaining stuck in the circumstances he started in. Being the informed minority in a fight can let you curbstomp everyone if you play it right.

I'm gonna say this again: this thread asked if it was possible. It is...or rather, it might be. A lot of it depends on the stats of the non-Roy members of this fight, who are mostly completely unknown right now.

[littlebum2002]

It REALLY depends on the levels of the new arrivals, but...

Durkon is by far the most powerful character in the room. He's an evil cleric(regardless of what he says, becoming a vampire was great for his optimization) and if he prayed for spells knowing this was a possibility (which, since he knew his plans would make this definitely a possibility, he should have) he definitely has the upper hand.

He's going against a favored soul, (probably) the second most powerful person in the room. Roy is level 15, and I'll assume she is as well.

Roy and the other melee guy aren't much of a threat. Roy does have his sword, but Durkula has DR, heavy armour, and probably spells which should take them out the fight.

Furthermore, his CR is 16 and the EL of the party is at MOST 15, and that's me giving the tiger a lot of credit. It's probably lower. Not that CR means anything, but it's a good benchmark to know he's got a really good fighting chance.

Or they could both be level 20 and he'll be dead in 2 rounds.

[factotum]

2. As an undead (d12+0 per HD) with 14 HD, Durkula has 96-97 hit points given average rolls. Before Power Attack Roy would be hitting for

2d6 (greatsword) + 10 (1.5*STR) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) + 5 (enhancement) + 2 (undead-bane) + 2d6 (undead-bane) - 10 (DR) = 4d6 + 9 damage (average 23)

I'll need to get back to you on average damage per round at a few different Power Attack trade-offs, but my guesstimate is two to three rounds on average to mist Durkula, four at most.


You're forgetting DR. As a vampire, Durkula has damage resistance 10/magic and silver. That means that the weapon has to be both magical (which Roy's sword is) and silver (which it almost certainly isn't) to bypass it.

[Toper]

Gaseous Form at will with perfect maneuverability fly speed 20ft as a Supernatural ability says pants to your "he can't get out of there" arguments.
Note that this takes a standard action and then he can't attack, cast spells, or use supernatural abilities until he uses another standard action to dismiss it, so you'd have to redo your whole battle plan to accommodate it.

That said, I'm not surprised somebody can find some broken Blasphemy / +CL combo in non-core material.

[AvatarVecna]

Note that this takes a standard action and then he can't attack, cast spells, or use supernatural abilities until he uses another standard action to dismiss it, so you'd have to redo your whole battle plan to accommodate it.

That said, I'm not surprised somebody can find some broken Blasphemy / +CL combo in non-core material.

The fact that my original battle plan had some flaws in it does not mean that the premise itself wa flawed: there are some stupidly powerful effects available to high-level clerics, and if Durkula plays things much more efficiently and sneakily than I did on my first try (and I have no doubt that, if he prepared for this, he'll have a battle strategy in mind), he can wipe the floor with this group.

And yeah, CL increasing BS is common enough outside of Core that it makes Blasphemy and its ilk ludicrously OP.

[D.One]

OK, I've got to this debate a little late, but let's notice he says "...if the elf is capable of doing it, I'll have to murder everyone in this roon..."

1) he says "have to". That means he believes his cover would be blown too early, which would be a problem to Hel's Plans. He is not expressing a capability (which he may or may not have), but a necessity.

2) Which brings us to a second thought: he wasn't anticipating a clash with three high level opponents, one of them a spontaneous divine caster capable of casting high level spells. I can give a extense list of 5th-to-7th spells that, each one, turns (pun intended) an undead's life (pun intended, again) into hell (pun twice intended), with Heal being just the starter. He was until now confident he could just follow the pillgrinade. So I really doubt he has all the right spells ready.



...also, if he uses Word of Recall in the surprise round to escape the situation in the first place, he can come back to take down the group on his own terms, rather than remaining stuck in the circumstances he started in. Being the informed minority in a fight can let you curbstomp everyone if you play it right.


If he uses Word of Recall and then rests for 8 hours to prepare spells and be ready to "take down the group on his own terms", he still lacks teleportation abilities to come back instantly (because if he had, he wouldn't need Roy to take him to the Godsmoot), and I guess he would meet more than just three high level character. And I'm pretty sure that adding a (appropriately prepared) 16th level wizard to this fight makes Durkula's unlife pretty harder.


It REALLY depends on the levels of the new arrivals, but...

Durkon is by far the most powerful character in the room. He's an evil cleric(regardless of what he says, becoming a vampire was great for his optimization) and if he prayed for spells knowing this was a possibility (which, since he knew his plans would make this definitely a possibility, he should have) he definitely has the upper hand.

He's going against a favored soul, (probably) the second most powerful person in the room. Roy is level 15, and I'll assume she is as well.

Roy and the other melee guy aren't much of a threat. Roy does have his sword, but Durkula has DR, heavy armour, and probably spells which should take them out the fight.

Furthermore, his CR is 16 and the EL of the party is at MOST 15, and that's me giving the tiger a lot of credit. It's probably lower. Not that CR means anything, but it's a good benchmark to know he's got a really good fighting chance.

Or they could both be level 20 and he'll be dead in 2 rounds.

Is he the most powerful character? I mean, Roy is a 15th fighter, with lots of high atributes and an anti-caster feat, and the other two (or three) we have no idea, but all we know points Veldrina at a "High Priest" level, recognized by both the elven and western clergies. She can, at least, cast 7th level spells, which means a 14th level favored soul, on par with Durkon's spellcasting abilities.

And as for CR, remember that a CR equal to the group's level means an encounter that can be beaten consuming as much as 30% of the resources. A CR 16 for a 15th level group is not an easy fight, but is one that, fully replenished, they will probably win.

That said, I recognize he might be able to win, but that's probably not the most likely outcome of such a battle, and certainly not in a "mop the floor" way.

[AvatarVecna]

If he uses Word of Recall and then rests for 8 hours to prepare spells and be ready to "take down the group on his own terms", he still lacks teleportation abilities to come back instantly (because if he had, he wouldn't need Roy to take him to the Godsmoot), and I guess he would meet more than just three high level character. And I'm pretty sure that adding a (appropriately prepared) 16th level wizard to this fight makes Durkula's unlife pretty harder.

Word of Recall wasn't for escaping to prepare the right spells; if he doesn't already have the right spells prepared, he's boned. No, Word of Recall is to get him not trapped in a small room with 2-3 powerful melee fighters. It's just to get him out of the immediate danger area.

Also, he's got Wind Walk, which Durkula is likely to be less afraid of than Durkon was. Using that he could get to the moot pretty easily. The point is that, if he had just up and taken off without Roy, his cover would be blown. Now, he has a reason for going there as Durkon, rather than just as Durkula.

[factotum]

She can, at least, cast 7th level spells, which means a 14th level favored soul, on par with Durkon's spellcasting abilities.


How "on par" she is with Durkon's spellcasting abilities depends entirely what spells she knows--as a Favoured Soul her selection is going to be pretty limited. For instance, if she *is* 14th level then she knows a grand total of 3 7th level spells, and if those happen to be Regenerate, Greater Restoration and Greater Scrying, then she's not going to be using them in a fight!

[D.One]

Word of Recall wasn't for escaping to prepare the right spells; if he doesn't already have the right spells prepared, he's boned. No, Word of Recall is to get him not trapped in a small room with 2-3 powerful melee fighters. It's just to get him out of the immediate danger area.

Also, he's got Wind Walk, which Durkula is likely to be less afraid of than Durkon was. Using that he could get to the moot pretty easily. The point is that, if he had just up and taken off without Roy, his cover would be blown. Now, he has a reason for going there as Durkon, rather than just as Durkula.

OK, but if he could simply go there with Wind Walk, what would he need the a fast ship for? He said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html).

If he is now close enough to go solely by Wind Walk, than why he didn't go already?

The reason to mantain his masquerade is the fact he needs transportation, which would be hard to obtain had he murdered Roy and the group.

[littlebum2002]

Is he the most powerful character? I mean, Roy is a 15th fighter, with lots of high atributes and an anti-caster feat

A fighter isn't even in the same ballpark of power level as a Cleric. That's like asking if the star player on my local basketball team is as good as LeBron. Durkon could take him out easily, feat or no feat. Add on top of that Durkula has DR and full plate armor and seriously, no contest.

The other guy, assuming he isn't a ToB class, or extraordinarily high level, is even less of a threat without the sword and feat.



but all we know points Veldrina at a "High Priest" level, recognized by both the elven and western clergies. She can, at least, cast 7th level spells, which means a 14th level favored soul, on par with Durkon's spellcasting abilities.

True, she is his ONLY competition in this fight, but I'm (assuming, hoping) that she is at least partially a healing-oriented Favored Soul, which reduces her flexibility even more, and I'm REALLY assuming (because he's an idiot otherwise) that Durkula planned his spells this morning knowing this was a possibility and is therefore fully loaded with any and all hard hitters he can think of.




And as for CR, remember that a CR equal to the group's level means an encounter that can be beaten consuming as much as 30% of the resources. A CR 16 for a 15th level group is not an easy fight, but is one that, fully replenished, they will probably win.

That said, I recognize he might be able to win, but that's probably not the most likely outcome of such a battle, and certainly not in a "mop the floor" way.

Also remember ECL doesn't take into account the characters classes.

Let's set up a fight. I'll play a level 16 Cleric, and you can play 4 level 16 fighters, leveled to your needs. I'll win every time. Same ECL, TOTALLY different power levels.

[AvatarVecna]

OK, but if he could simply go there with Wind Walk, what would he need the a fast ship for? He said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html).

If he is now close enough to go solely by Wind Walk, than why he didn't go already?

The reason to mantain his masquerade is the fact he needs transportation, which would be hard to obtain had he murdered Roy and the group.

Why didn't he use Wind Walk? I don't know. Maybe he wanted to maintain the deception, and figured it wouldn't be that hard to trick Roy into coming up with the idea on his own. Maybe the moot location is warded against Wind Walk to prevent stealthy infiltration, so that the only way to arrive is either as a large group or in an obvious way. Maybe Rich Burlew forgot about Wind Walk. Who knows? The fact remains that, without further information, there's no reason Wind Walk shouldn't be able to get him there, so there must be a reason why he didn't use it.

EDIT: As a possible explanation, the moot might be too far away to Wind Walk to in time. If that's the case, the reason he needs the ship is because it gets to wherever it's going "just in the nick of time".

[AvatarVecna]

A fighter isn't even in the same ballpark of power level as a Cleric. That's like asking if the star player on my local basketball team is as good as LeBron. Durkon could take him out easily, feat or no feat. Add on top of that Durkula has DR and full plate armor and seriously, no contest.

If everyone in the OOTS universe was optimized to a practical degree, Durkon would curbstomp the room unless Veldrina was optimized for combat (if she was optimized for something else, he curbstomps them). That said, the only reason this question really has multiple answers is that Durkon has an incredibly un-optimal build: his LA +8 template is giving him a measly +2 Wisdom; the other benefits are decent, but it's made his ECL skyrocket into epic, making his XP gain rate drop into subterranean levels. His feat choices are nothing spectacular, and the ones he gets from being a vampire are some of the worst feats you can choose in the game; if he were an optimized cleric, he'd be DCSing them away ASAP.

Durkon is not optimal beyond being a cleric. Everything else about both his build and his characterization (even as Durkula) is why this is a question at all.

[D.One]

A fighter isn't even in the same ballpark of power level as a Cleric. That's like asking if the star player on my local basketball team is as good as LeBron. Durkon could take him out easily, feat or no feat. Add on top of that Durkula has DR and full plate armor and seriously, no contest.

That's just the kind of "this class is obviously better" thing The Giant debunks every now and than.



Let's set up a fight. I'll play a level 16 Cleric, and you can play 4 level 16 fighters, leveled to your needs. I'll win every time. Same ECL, TOTALLY different power levels.

You only say this because you've never seen me playing a 16th level Fighter... Let alone 4 of them.

But "class struggles" apart, what I meant with my comment was that Durkula never really said such a fight would be an easy one, just something he would be forced to do.

He might win? Yes.

He migh lose? Yes, and I think it's a fairly probable scenario, unless he is able to off then in the surprise round.

[Sith_Happens]

You're forgetting DR. As a vampire, Durkula has damage resistance 10/magic and silver. That means that the weapon has to be both magical (which Roy's sword is) and silver (which it almost certainly isn't) to bypass it.

That's what the "- 10 (DR)" at the end was.


Word of Recall wasn't for escaping to prepare the right spells; if he doesn't already have the right spells prepared, he's boned. No, Word of Recall is to get him not trapped in a small room with 2-3 powerful melee fighters. It's just to get him out of the immediate danger area.

There's still the problem that the reason he was contemplating having to kill everyone in the first place would be to maintain his cover. If Durkula opens with an escape spell, while it won't tip anyone else in the room off immediately that he's not who he seems, it will give them plenty of time to wonder why he just did that and go looking for him, and "go looking for him" might involve regrouping with more of the Order which is the last thing he wants.


The reason to mantain his masquerade is the fact he needs transportation, which would be hard to obtain had he murdered Roy and the group.

The reason to maintain his masquerade is that he doesn't want to risk anyone wondering where he just Wind Walked off to that he couldn't tell them about.


That's just the kind of "this class is obviously better" thing The Giant debunks every now and than.

Only with respect to the comic.

[grandpheonix]

Im assuming Durkon was the same level as Roy, and his ECL went up by 6 just for being a vampire. His STR goes up, and his body is treated as an undead now, which give him D12's for Hit Die.

Vamps can Dominate at will, summon creatures to help them, and whoop all kinds of butt. If unprepared, a single Vamp will wipe an entire party.

Durkula dominates Val, Val uses Blade Barrier in the room. Durkula turns his attention to Roy while Roy tries to take Val down and Wrecan is fighting Roy. Durkula uses the next round to summon, and tries to dominate as a free action on Wrecan. He may make his save, or he may not. Roy, still fighting Val and Wrecan (Because he doesnt want to hurt Durkula) doesnt realize he is being flanked. Durkula casts Harm on Roy (Doing TONS of damage) then sics his summon on Roy.

Ill stop, but yes. Durkula could have taken the room.

(I forgot about El Tigre, but he would have been killed by Durkula, probably)

[littlebum2002]

If everyone in the OOTS universe was optimized to a practical degree, Durkon would curbstomp the room unless Veldrina was optimized for combat (if she was optimized for something else, he curbstomps them). That said, the only reason this question really has multiple answers is that Durkon has an incredibly un-optimal build: his LA +8 template is giving him a measly +2 Wisdom; the other benefits are decent, but it's made his ECL skyrocket into epic, making his XP gain rate drop into subterranean levels. His feat choices are nothing spectacular, and the ones he gets from being a vampire are some of the worst feats you can choose in the game; if he were an optimized cleric, he'd be DCSing them away ASAP.

Durkon is not optimal beyond being a cleric. Everything else about both his build and his characterization (even as Durkula) is why this is a question at all.

great points, but you're making one mistake. How fast Durkon gains XP is irrelevant to how well he can fight in this one fight. Sure, eventually he'll fall behind the rest of his team, but for right now he's more powerful because of the vamping. So right now, he's much more optimized than he once was: Able to dominate (and do the other cool vampire things), can channel negative energy, energy drain, easy way to escape if he gets defeated, and stat bonuses. All those feats? Sure, they stink (except Improved Initiative, which would be extremely helpful in this fight) but so far he hasn't actually given up anything to get them (since they're not fighting in the sunlight and no opponent in this fight can turn him). Plus the HPoH seems much smarter than Durkon so probably made some great spell choices when praying bc he knew this was going to be a possibility if he's chasing high level clerics. That doesn't change your point any, just pointing it out.





But "class struggles" apart, what I meant with my comment was that Durkula never really said such a fight would be an easy one, just something he would be forced to do.

He might win? Yes.

He migh lose? Yes, and I think it's a fairly probable scenario, unless he is able to off then in the surprise round.

Well, depending on what level everyone is, I think Blasphemy would daze everyone, maybe weaken Veldrina and other-melee-guy, and probably paralyze the tiger. I'd start with that then follow up with Destruction against Veldrina. And that's just using core.

But yes, I agree he stands a good chance at losing, but considering he probably prepared for this, and gets the surprise, I think he stands a better chance at winning.

[AvatarVecna]

One way or another, it comes down to whether or not Durkula prepared spells with high-level combat in mind, and had optimal tactics in mind when he picked them. If he didn't pick spells with high-level combat in mind, he's a slightly less competent fighter who can self-heal. if he did, he's got some seriously powerful magic he can throw around, and only Veldrina has the potential to completely shut him down.

[Necris Omega]

Given how the vampire fumbled his initial "get Roy to chase after the clerics" plan, I really don't think he's anywhere near as canny or capable as he thinks he is.

Against Roy, the man with an undead slaying sword who's out to destroy spellcasting undead that make Durkula look like a novice fumbling with cantrips, a Favored Soul (14-16), and likely a similarly leveled warrior... yeah, unless Wrecan has a Will save like a fat guy at a buffet, assuming this would be an easy fight would be foolish. With the massive unknowns involved, jumping to the conclusion of "oh, I'll just kill them and come up with something else" is just bad planning. Really, who's to say Wrecan and Veldrina are the only ones in this party? The tiger's presence hints at the possibility of a Ranger somewhere yet to be revealed.

[Gusion]

Well, depending on what level everyone is, I think Blasphemy would daze everyone, maybe weaken Veldrina and other-melee-guy, and probably paralyze the tiger. I'd start with that then follow up with Destruction against Veldrina. And that's just using core.

But yes, I agree he stands a good chance at losing, but considering he probably prepared for this, and gets the surprise, I think he stands a better chance at winning.

The chances of everyone failing their will save is unlikely. Veldrina's got a +9 will save. Roy's got a high wisdom. Durkon does not have a high charisma.

Roy's best move would be to hold his initiative and hit with the point of disrupting HPoH's casting - gotta put that lesson from his grandfather to good work after all (see comic 600)...

Veldrina could cast a whole host of things that'd help out. I mean Disrupting Weapon could be pretty bad ass here. Mass Death Ward would be a handy spell to have. Spaming searing light is good too. All depends on how she's built.

Wrecan seems like a guy with high wisdom. I'm going to guess druid as he has (maybe) a wooden shield, no visible weapons, and isn't wearing any apparent metal armor. Plus, you know, tiger. I think the quip about the XP was a joke. If he is a druid, that opens up a whole host of possibilities... hello Sunbeam!

[goodpeople25]

The chances of everyone failing their will save is unlikely. Veldrina's got a +9 will save. Roy's got a high wisdom. Durkon does not have a high charisma.

Roy's best move would be to hold his initiative and hit with the point of disrupting HPoH's casting - gotta put that lesson from his grandfather to good work after all (see comic 600)...

Veldrina could cast a whole host of things that'd help out. I mean Disrupting Weapon could be pretty bad ass here. Mass Death Ward would be a handy spell to have. Spaming searing light is good too. All depends on how she's built.

Wrecan seems like a guy with high wisdom. I'm going to guess druid as he has (maybe) a wooden shield, no visible weapons, and isn't wearing any apparent metal armor. Plus, you know, tiger. I think the quip about the XP was a joke. If he is a druid, that opens up a whole host of possibilities... hello Sunbeam!
Wrecan kinda looks like he has metal shoulder pads and a shield but it is hard to be sure. Also veldrina having Mast Massive Masked Mass Depth Death-Warg Dept Death Word Gourd Ward, might be a bit out-there as the spell is non-core though of course she could have it, it is just less likely.

[Gusion]

Wrecan kinda looks like he has metal shoulder pads and a shield but it is hard to be sure. Also veldrina having Mast Massive Masked Mass Depth Death-Warg Dept Death Word Gourd Ward, might be a bit out-there as the spell is non-core though of course she could have it, it is just less likely.

You know... in 987 I didn't think so. But since you mentioned it in 986 the shoulderpads look more metal. They're missing the divet that Roy has, but that's probably just artistic license.

I realize mass death ward isn't core, but I am unclear if it was a uniquely researched spell by Malack or if it simply Richbrewed.

Either way, I don't think HPoH could kill everyone before they were able to escape... there is a window in the room after all and falling damage isn't a big deal.

[toapat]

Dominate would be a way to take Roy out in one round, despite Durkon's belief that Roy could resist it.

hes probably on the same level will save wise as Veldrina, considering she has a Wisdom penalty, unless she has Force of Personality, at which point Will saves just bounce off of her.

Looks like she has + Int, - Wis, + Cha

[Sith_Happens]

I realize mass death ward isn't core, but I am unclear if it was a uniquely researched spell by Malack or if it simply Richbrewed.

Technically it was researched by Durkon, Malack just helped (himself more so than Durkon it turned out). That does mean though that anyone else who wants to learn it would also need to do so via research, since clerics don't have any way to share the spells they invent with others (the one exception being if Favored Souls have the same "unusual spells gained through study" clause that Sorcerers do, in which case if Durkula were to somehow scribe a scroll of Mass Death Ward and let Veldrina decipher it then the spell would probably be available for her to learn the next time she gains a 7th level spell known).

[Psyren]

You're forgetting DR. As a vampire, Durkula has damage resistance 10/magic and silver. That means that the weapon has to be both magical (which Roy's sword is) and silver (which it almost certainly isn't) to bypass it.

Putting aside that a power-attacking fighter with Roy's strength is probably not even going to notice 10 DR, I wouldn't be surprised if his sword simply ignores DR on undead entirely when it goes glowy.

[factotum]

Putting aside that a power-attacking fighter with Roy's strength is probably not even going to notice 10 DR, I wouldn't be surprised if his sword simply ignores DR on undead entirely when it goes glowy.

I would be, because that completely ignores the D&D rules--and while Rich is happy to ignore rules for the sake of plot, we can't do the same thing; otherwise, we could just say "But the plot demands that Durkula fails to kill everyone in the room, therefore he fails. QED.". Unless Roy's sword is silver as well as being magical, which we're pretty sure it's not, it does not ignore Durkula's DR.

Of course, if his sword is an Undead Bane one, the fact it does an extra 2d6 damage to undead would go a long way to simply overwhelming D's damage resistance by sheer damage output!

[Quartz]

Aren't we forgetting V and Belkar?

Why would Durkula try to dominate Roy when he can reliably dominate Belkar? Especially as Belkar would have little compunction against killing the others.

V might have a problem countering Durkula. While he has Forcecage, which can be cast as a cube, trapping D, I'm not seeing an awful lot on list of his known spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18643430&postcount=2) that would actually help. If he were to cube D, he could use the time to buff the others, though.

[dancrilis]

Aren't we forgetting V and Belkar?
They were not in the room.



If he were to cube D, he could use the time to buff the others, though.
Another way of phrasing this would be that he can temporally make Durkon invincible while allowing him to dominate at will to his unbeating heart's content.

But as Vaarsuvius was not in the room it hardly matters.

[littlebum2002]

Putting aside that a power-attacking fighter with Roy's strength is probably not even going to notice 10 DR, I wouldn't be surprised if his sword simply ignores DR on undead entirely when it goes glowy.

I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula researched a "kill everyone in the room" spell and prepared it this morning. Done, problem solved.

But no, it doesn't work that way. You have to assume we're following the rules until we aren't. And therefore you have to assume Durkula still has DR even when fighting roy until we are told he doesn't.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Destroying an undead before Resurrecting it is only necessary if you're using a piece of it (or a piece of the corpse from before it rose). If the undead itself is on hand you just have to touch it after casting the spell. You can find that rule in the undead type traits.

Yeah, I'm quoting a month back, but I thought this was a very good point. From the moment the favored soul starts casting Durkon has ten minutes in which he can engage in conversation with the two meat shields, gathering information and positioning himself for a first strike. If he has any options for disabling a surprised spell caster currently focused on casting within one round (although I have no idea what those options would be) he will be able to execute that move. He might even be able to use this time to trick the fighters into thinking someone else is attacking them, if he has any good spells or abilities he can use silently. They might realize they just used a will save, but if he plays his cards right they may not realize it was against Durkon's domination.

If he manages to raise 6 seconds worth of confusion and get these guys to lash out at a nonexistent target behind the door he effectively has an extra surprise round.

That's how I'd play it, right before going down in a blaze of not using the spells right.